What does everyone think is the best race/class combo for an archer character 1st-20th
An Xeph for race, and Fighter or Scout depending on what sort of fighting style you're looking for. Fighters have all sorts of bow tricks for just standing there and putting arrows in people and scouts are the best for fighting on the move. Order of the bow initiate or similiar prestige classes make good choices.
Might composite long bows are pretty cool, not only in the mechanical sense of letting you add your strength bonus to damage, but the though of an odysius style bow that only mighty men can use is a cool idea. I know that elves get the bonus to dex, thus ranged combat, but don't neglect the extra damage you could get with high strength and a mighty bow.
The warlock hah. This is totally a class that I have changed to an archer. If players want to play it now, they have to use a bow, there eldritch blast still works, but its an arror ect. They cant make items, but still keep some invocations. Warlock is a pretty neat class as an archer.....
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The warlock hah. This is totally a class that I have changed to an archer. If players want to play it now, they have to use a bow, there eldritch blast still works, but its an arror ect. They cant make items, but still keep some invocations. Warlock is a pretty neat class as an archer.....
Just like the archer in the D&D cartoon!
Only thing is, you're not allowed to fire it AT anyone...you have to knock a plate on someone's noggin, or shoot down a tapestry, so they stand under it for 10 minutes, going "GGGRRR! I'LL GET YOU MEDDLING KIDS FOR THIS, YOU SEE IF I DON'T! GGGGRRR!"
:-P
The warlock hah. This is totally a class that I have changed to an archer. If players want to play it now, they have to use a bow, there eldritch blast still works, but its an arror ect. They cant make items, but still keep some invocations. Warlock is a pretty neat class as an archer.....
Yuk! Sorry, but this is how I feel.
Best archer. The commbinations are endless. The best archer is what you make it, but playing a ranger or fighter is a must (bonus feats mean everything). A prestige class like Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, or Order of the Bow initiate is also probably a must.
What does everyone think is the best race/class combo for an archer character 1st-20th
Best at what? Once you start looking at PrC's, you start getting into rather specialized niches that are better at different things than others.
Human or elf fighter/order of the bow is a good combo. This is more of a stationary "turret" if you will.
Substitute fighter for ranger and you've got another good build. The fighter levels, of course, allow for more feats.
Elf scout/deepwood sniper (Masters of the Wild) is also a good combo. This build is a more mobile skirmisher rather than a turret.
A base rogue is also a great sniper. Ranged sneak at 30' can be all it takes. Building a sniper off a rogue can be a potent combo, especially when considering opportunist.
What about a high Dex and the Weapon Finesse feat (can you do that with a ranged weapon?). Then maybe do a gestalt ranger fighter armed with a composite longbow.
Eh, no.
With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain...
And bringing in gestalt rules brings in a whole new dimension to this exercise.
Dwarf Fighter! seriously! I've made a Dwarven Defender Archer. The basic concept is a machine gun pill box, you pick a spot on the battlefield with good fields of fire use your defensive stance for AC bonus and full attack everyround, and if the bad guys come to you, your high dex, AC bonus and good armour mean your a tough nut to crack. One of the biggest problems with Dwarven Defender is mobility and taking up archery fixes that, its a good marriage that makes a fun character to play.
I'm surprised that nobody's recommended elven cleric yet. Spend your first two feats on Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot and prepare a lot of magic weapon until you can get the greater version, and you can be dealing a pleasant 2d8+2 damage per round at level 3 if both hit.
Most parties need a cleric anyway, who will normally be a secondary fighter with a heavy mace. This way you can put all your points into Dex and Wis without necessarily needing a decent Str or Con. You're more mobile in light armour for running around healing people, and you get all those nice combat buffs too.
|
|
I'm surprised that nobody's recommended elven cleric yet.
I feel that a a straight cleric won't be as good at higher levels. Their spellcasting becomes too important and the slower BAB progression limits the bow's effectiveness.
A fighter/cleric or a ranger/cleric has possibilities however.
The prestige classes mentioned earlier are definite things to consider as well.
There's no weapon that you can swing or fire that a human fighter couldn't use better.
what about the arcane archer? free +5 arrows! Also, what does everyone think of the value of greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization(both require a lot of fighter levels) vs levels in a prestige class? Is the trade-off worth it?
I'm thinking a lot of Fighter and Order of the Bow is *most likely* to produce the more versatile build. At the moment, I am leaning toward a Human, primarily for the extra feat. I'm going to review the Scout to see how well it would work as either the Archer base class or maybe as a supporting class. Get that mobility thing going a little early, you know!
what about the arcane archer? free +5 arrows! Also, what does everyone think of the value of greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization(both require a lot of fighter levels) vs levels in a prestige class? Is the trade-off worth it?
Yeah - the AA is one I'm kinda toying with, but I don;t think they are as versatile an archer. As for the Greaters, the jury is still out. I ran up a Ftr20 and took them - now I'm going to run up a Ftr/OotBI and see how they compare, on paper at least.
In retrospect, the fact that ammunition's enhancement bonus doesn't stack with the bow means that cleric archers aren't so good any more. In that regard, if you're dropping to three-quarters base attack you might as well go rogue for the sneak attack.
Archers with certain class levels are powerful within 30'. Sneak, skirmish, ranged precision... It makes far shot seem useless. I recommend using poisons to achieve desired effects at long range. Not all poisons are lethal. Also, consider slaying arrows. At certain levels, such items shouldn't be impossible to come by (or craft). I like my archers to have a range of ammunition to choose from. It makes things interesting. I even developed non-lethal arrows for the scout in the group, allowing him to use tanglefoot bags, smoke sticks, and thunderstones using the range of his comp. longbow rather than the typical 20' (-2 to attack roll... the feat Non-Lethal Expert cancels the penalty). Very nifty.
Necessary feats include point blank (duh); precise shot for firing into melee, which will happen all the time; shot on the run for scouts; alertness and/or quick reconnitier (Complete Adv.) for that all-important spot check (the sniper must see everything first); far shot if you want to use poisons or magical ammunition; perhaps ranged disarm for the trick shot...
Ultimate Archer! Ok, probably not THE ultimate archer, but I think this is a fairly strong build for a mobile archer. It *is* a little odd, tho...
Human (that extra feat really helps!)
Ftr1: Point-blank Shot; Dodge; Mobility
Ftr2: Weapon Focus(longbow)
Sorc1: Practiced Caster (spell list; 0: Disrupt Undead; Flare; Ghost Sound; Dancing Lights 1: Expeditious Retreat; Low-Light Vision)
- Familiar
**With Practiced Caster, his 1st lvl spells are working like he is a 3rd lvl caster *right now* and will go on up to 5th lvl over his next 2 levels. Using Exp. Retreat makes him on seriously mobile cuss today, and in three levels he'll be moving 70' with it, taking a shot at his leisure as he does so!**
Scout1:
- skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding
Scout2:
- battle fortitude +1; uncanny dodge
Scout3: Shot on the Run
- fast move +10'; skirmish (+1d6; +1AC); trackless step
Scout4: Rapid Shot
At this point, the Archer can go for a straight Scout approach, or go from here for Order of the Bow Initiate.
**PATH 1, straight Scout**
Scout5:
evasion; skirmish (+2d6 +1AC)
Scout6: Quick Reconnoiter
- flawless stride
Scout7:
skirmish (+2d6 +2AC)
Scout8: Manyshot
- camoflage
Scout9: Improved Rapid Shot
- skirmish (+3d6 +2AC)
Scout10:
- blindsense 30'
Scout11:
- battle fortitude +2; fast move +20'; skirmish (+3d6; +3AC);
Scout12: Far Shot; Improved Initiative
Scout13:
- skirmish (+4d6; +3AC);
Scout14:
- hide in plain sight
Scout15: Danger Sense
- skirmish (+4d6; +4AC);
Scout16: Precise Shot
Scout17:
- skirmish (+5d6; +4AC);
**PATH 2, OotBI**
OotBI1:
- ranged precision +1d8
OotBI2: Quick Reconnoiter
- close-combat shot
OotBI3:
- ranged precision +2d8
OotBI4:
- greater weapon focus
OotBI5: Manyshot
- ranged precision +3d8
OotBI6:
- sharp-shooting
Scout5:
evasion; skirmish (+2d6 +1AC)
Scout6: Improved Rapid Shot
- flawless stride
Scout7:
skirmish (+2d6 +2AC)
Scout8: Far Shot
- camoflage
Scout9: Improved Initiative
- skirmish (+3d6 +2AC)
Scout10:
- blindsense 30'
Scout11:
- battle fortitude +2; fast move +20'; skirmish (+3d6; +3AC);
I'm working on a straight-Fighter build that could be pretty serious, but with the Scout's skirmish ability, a straight Fighter is gonna lag a bit if he trys to follow the same path.
The best archer is what you make it, but playing a ranger or fighter is a must (bonus feats mean everything).
I don't think the Ranger gets enough combat-related feats to make more than a "sufficient" archer. They get Manyshot, Rapid Shot, and Improved Precise Shot thru the combat-style track, but everything else relies on the use of character feats every 3rd level. An archery-dedicated fighter, however, *will* rock the battlefield.
A prestige class like Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, or Order of the Bow initiate is also probably a must.
I'm not so sure. OotBI struck me as losing its utility after level 6 if taken with a Scout. The jury is still out on Arcane Archer for me - I need to treat it like I did the Scout above and see what I can make it do. At first glance, tho, a magic weapon makes the AA lose its shine quickly. As for Deepwoods Sniper, I'm going to have to fish that one out of storage and reread it first.
Don't forget with the arcane archer, with the arrows enhanced for free, you can beef up the bow with various abilities such as speed and you can also put flaming etc. on the arrows.Since the arrows boost automatically, you only need +1 arrows plus whatever is on them.
Also, do you like the woodland archer tactical feat?
Don't forget with the arcane archer, with the arrows enhanced for free, you can beef up the bow with various abilities
Good point! See, I knew there was an angle I was missing.
Also, do you like the woodland archer tactical feat?
Which book is it in? I don't remember seeing it offhand...
|
20th level human fighter (best archer)
Attack: +39/+39/+39/+34/+29/+24 within 30'
Damage: 1d8+18+2d6(vs.evil), 19-20/x3 (+5 elvencrafted holy composite longbow of speed) if within 30' of opponents
Average Damage per successful hit (counting crits): 34.0 (27.0 vs. non-evil creatures)
Original ability scores at level 1: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10
Ability scores at level 20: Str 20, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats:
1)Point Blank Shot
1)Rapid Shot
1)Precise Shot
2)Weapon Focus: Comp. Longbow
3)Iron Will
4)Weapon Specialisation: Comp. Longbow
6)Manyshot
6)Improved Rapid Shot
8)Ranged Weapon Mastery: Piercing
9)Improved Critical: Comp. Longbow
10)Greater Weapon Focus: Comp. Longbow
12)Improved Precise Shot
12)Greater Weapon Specialisation: Comp. Longbow
14)Quick Draw
15)Penetrating Shot
16)Defensive Archery
18)Dodge
18)Mobility
20)Shot on the Run
Useful magic items: Greater Bracers of Archery, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Belt of Giant Strength +6, Quiver of Ehlonna
Hagen, I don't recognize some of those feats. Can you call out which feats came from sources other than the PHB? (I need to go back and do that for my post, too)
(edit - corrected a name-spelling, since I know a Hagan and got confused)
Also, do you like the woodland archer tactical feat?
Which book is it in? I don't remember seeing it offhand...
It's a tactical feat from Races of the Wild. A definite must for any archer.
Also, do you like the woodland archer tactical feat?It's a tactical feat from Races of the Wild. A definite must for any archer.
That explains it - I don't have any of the "Races of X" books. I'll see if I can take a look at it in the bookstore soon.
I think the best combo you could ever have is a human fighter with the extra damage that only a order of the bow intiate gets. and if you happen to tack on deepwood sniper, you have the incresed crit multiplier. Tack on the coposite greatbow, enchanted of course, with different arrows (silver, adamantine, etc.). And remember, the fighter is the only one who can get the wapon specialization feat, unless you get it from a prestige class as a free feat(such as pious templar for those of you who follow Shaveresh the elven diety of revenge).
woodland archer-the feat provides 3 tactical options: the best of which is a +4 to hit for each attack following the first attack you missed that round
|
|
Hagen, I don't recognize some of those feats. Can you call out which feats came from sources other than the PHB? (I need to go back and do that for my post, too)
Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior)
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Player's Handbook II)Penetrating Shot (Player's Handbook II)
Defensive Archery (Races of the Wild)
|
|
Archer prestige classes just don't make the cut in 3.5 for the following reasons:
Arcane Archer:
- Enhance Arrow ability is useless because +5 arrows don't stack with +5 bows. Granted, it does allow the arcane archer to upgrade his bow with weapon abilities instead of enhancement bonuses.
- Arcane archer has to waste a level in wizard or sorcerer.
- All the useful abilities such as Hail of Arrows are only usable once per day, making them unreliable.
- The DC 20 Fortitude save for Arrow of Death is laughable. Anyone who fails that at high levels shouldn't be that difficult to defeat.
Order of the Bow Initiate:
- Better than Arcane Archer, but the Ranged Precision ability requires a standard action, which leaves the Bow Initiate at one attack per round and makes Rapid Shot useless. I'd rather have a fighter attacking at +39/+39/+39/+34/+29+/+24 doing 34 damage per hit than attack once at +39 and do 54.1 damage on average. If you're going to shoot once a round, then choose a warlock (at least he makes ranged touch attacks).
- The Initiate gets Sharp-Shooting as a bonus feat, which becomes useless once Improved Precise Shot is taken.
This thread was about who made the best archer. Mathematically, nothing compares to a fighter. Warlocks are useful if your opponent's AC is above 50. Rogues are decent because they can snipe, but they lack the base attack to hit hard-to-hit foes. Rangers are fun but lack the sneak attack of the rogue and the feats of the fighter.
|
|
Deepwood Sniper is a favorite class of one of my players. I agree that fighter levels are the best way of attaining this PrC.
And somewhat regularly that player defeats encounters by herself because no one else has the range of combat when she (elf) spots the enemy a 1/4 mile away.
If we're talking about an archer for dungeons, by all means go with a rogue or even a scout, but with near full attack progression, our archer has trouble with some monsters' AC straight out of modules (the melee players too, in fact). I don't recommend losing too much base attack for special abilities.
Now my own opinion, were I to play an archer, would be a fighter20 or AA. The +5 to your ammunition makes a great addition to a bow that adds lots of damage dice. Oh, and always take a feat or item ability that negates concealment in some way. My two cents.
Ok, I fear I have strayed onto the path of Munchkindom. The idea is a Scout who moves fast and far to deliver his devestating attacks. Here's the approach:
Human - bonus feat, no multiclass penalty, 30' base move
Brb1 - fast move(+10'), good BAB
Ftr1,2 - Dodge, Mobility, good BAB
Sor1 - Expeditious Retreat (+30')
Scout1-16 - fast move(+20'), skirmish(+4d6, +4AC)
Boots of Striding and Springing (+10')
This gets him a base move of 70' before casting ExpRetreat, which brings him up to 100' base move in a round. If he takes the Run feat, then on the rounds when he has ExpRetreat active, he can move 500' per round. That's almost a MILE in one minute! He can quickly get into place and set up an ambush out of sight, spring the ambush moving from cover into firing position, fire, and move out of sight!
Have I descended into the dreaded realms of Munchkindom? Or does it depend on the backstory?
(edited to correct math problem)
|
How come when I look at Doc_Outlands speedy character I just think they need endurance as well so they can run for damn near forever?
Also in the Dragon Compendium there is a prestige class who gets all sorts of bonuses to movement and archery(the fleet foot of elhonna or something like that). That would be a pretty cool way to finish off that character after the scout levels.
If you want pure stand-and-shoot devastation, yeah, the human fighter/OBI is your best bet.
Inspired by a certain Uber Acrobatic Elf Archer who appeared in some mildly popular films recently, I went with a ranger/scout/thief-acrobat however, and he performs admirably:
http://the-gneech.livejournal.com/1066632.html
Souces used: PHB, Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild.
The "Defensive Archery" feat from RotW is not quite as nice as the OBI's Close Combat Shot (gives an AC bonus rather than just not provoking AoO's), but the Scout's Skirmish damage makes a fine replacement for Ranged Precision. It also combines with Manyshot, which Ranged Precision doesn't. The downside, of course, is that the Scout has a lower BAB.
This writeup can also do those crazy "run up the troll's chain" maneuvers, thanks to the Thief-Acrobat levels.
If you wanted to forego the two-weapon fighting angle, you could choose the Archery path for the ranger and spend the level feats on more archery feats (Far Shot, Ranged Sunder, stuff like that) as well. But you'd be at a noticeable disadvantage when (not IF) you get forced into melee.
-The Gneech
I think one angle that has been lacking in this discussion is stealth. It's great to be able to fire five arrows a round at +39, but you won't get more than a round or two off before your pincushioned enemy closes with you and smooshes you with his huge greatclub. So, not worrying about PrCs, I choose a ranger/rogue combo. You don't get as many shots, but you still get quite a few with rapid shot, and if you shoot and scoot, and you have good hide/move silently with suitable magic items to help, you can do a lot of extra damage with your sneak attack. Add favored enemy bonuses for extra damage, and the ability to move unhindered through the underbrush to complement your stealth, and you are a pretty formidable ranged combatant. Plus this build has a lot of versatility--you can't do tracking as well as a pure ranger, nor open locks and remove traps as well as a pure rogue, but you can do both passably well. And with UMD you can do all kinds of other things, suitably equipped (wand of true strike, anyone?). A Rogue 10/Ranger 10 also gets access to 1st and 2nd level ranger spells--longstrider, jump, pass without trace, and cat's grace help stealth and mobility, and others are useful for self-protection, hindering enemy movements, protecting your flanks, etc.
Useful magic items--flaming or other energy bow, belt of giant strength, gloves of dex, cloak and boots of elvenkind, shadow/silent moves mithral chain shirt, 2 quivers of Ehlonna (I'd give your 20th level fighter archer 4 of them), extra-dimensional storage device large enough to store 200 or so extra arrows, potions/ring of invisibility, wand of true strike and/or flame arrow, wand of melf's acid arrow (for annoying spellcasters with high AC, taking advantage of very high ranged touch attack bonus).
If you want to reduce D&D to attack bonuses and damage, that's OK, but it leads to being one-dimensional, rather than tactically specialized. There is a difference. I'm not saying a fighter can't make an excellent archer, but in a party of 4 characters, I'd rather have a ranger/rogue than an archery focused fighter, because he can do more for the party.
Far shot is of limited use unless you spend a lot of time outdoors. In a dungeon setting you almost never exceed the range increment of a composite longbow.
Has anyone thought of a good build for a mounted archer?
How come when I look at Doc_Outlands speedy character I just think they need endurance as well so they can run for damn near forever?
I was looking at that just this morning, actually! I might go back in and do a tad of feat-tweaking to include Endurance.
I think one angle that has been lacking in this discussion is stealth. It's great to be able to fire five arrows a round at +39, but you won't get more than a round or two off before your pincushioned enemy closes with you and smooshes you with his huge greatclub.
Not when your base speed is 70'-100'! You can scoot-shoot-scoot, run, rinse, repeat for quite a while. Scouts get to be stealthy, too - Hide and Move Silently are both class skills for them.
So, not worrying about PrCs, I choose a ranger/rogue combo.
I wasn't satisfied with the Rgr/Rog combo, but honestly, I had by that point fixated on making a really disgustingly FAST and mobile shooter.
Useful magic items--
flaming or other energy bow - my thought was a +5 mighty composite longbow with Distance, Seeking, and Speed enhancements and then get specialized arrows to suit your needs, like +1 Brilliant Energy arrows. I figured on putting the fire/shocking/frost/etc on the arrows so that they could be selected against an enemy's weaknesses.
belt of giant strength - A great choice to compliment the mighty composite longbowgloves of dex - I was considering Gloves of Storing, to hold one of those Wands below, but the Dex bonus would prolly be far more useful.
cloak and boots of elvenkind - I like the boots of striding and springing for the base move increase, but the Elven clothing would definitely improve the "sniper's" survivability.
shadow/silent moves mithral chain shirt - If you are going mithral, why not get a mithral breastplate with shadow/silent moves? Much better protection and as it is mithral, it is still Light Armor...
2 quivers of Ehlonna (I'd give your 20th level fighter archer 4 of them) - I'd research a new item based on the QoE that was "arrows only" to match your following item...
extra-dimensional storage device large enough to store 200 or so extra arrows
potions/ring of invisibility - or Blur...
wand of true strike and/or flame arrow, wand of melf's acid arrow (for annoying spellcasters with high AC, taking advantage of very high ranged touch attack bonus) - Having the Sor1 would help with this - if it is on the spell-list, no problem!
Far shot is of limited use unless you spend a lot of time outdoors. In a dungeon setting you almost never exceed the range increment of a composite longbow.
This is very true and is something an archer should keep in mind! My "Mobile Artillery" build above was assuming primarily open-air combats rather than dungeons. Being able to move that far that fast just strikes me as the very antithesis of a dungeon-oriented archer. Great...now I'm starting to build a more dungeon-oriented, precision-based archer...
Has anyone thought of a good build for a mounted archer?
Yeah, I was considering that as my next build, actually. "Well, he's awfully mobile on foot, what would a MOUNTED archer be capable of??"
I guess when you get to 20th level you might have access to +5 weapons. I'd go for the other enhancements first--particularly ones that increase your damage.
Being able to move 100' in one move action is not particularly useful in a 50x50 foot room. If you're outdoors, sure--but 20-30 feet is quite sufficient for shoot and scoot tactics if you've got the ability to disappear from view. A wand of expeditious retreat or your party wizard's haste spell can cover for the rare occasions when you need to move faster.
I guess my real point was to move away from a min-maxed character and toward one that is fun to play in a wide variety of tactical situations while filling an archer niche effectively. Your roadrunner may impress your comrades in arms under certain specific conditions, but my ranger/rogue will be the one that they view as indispensible to the party. If I'm DMing, I guarantee you I'll find a way to take your fast moving scout out of the battle in a couple of rounds, regardless of how fast he is or how many arrows he can pickle off in a round or how high his attack bonus is. Is he good for anything else?
Ok, I fear I have strayed onto the path of Munchkindom. The idea is a Scout who moves fast and far to deliver his devestating attacks. Here's the approach:
Human - bonus feat, no multiclass penalty, 30' base move
Brb1 - fast move(+10'), good BAB
Ftr1,2 - Dodge, Mobility, good BAB
Sor1 - Expeditious Retreat (+30')
Scout1-16 - fast move(+20'), skirmish(+4d6, +4AC)Boots of Striding and Springing (+10')
This gets him a base move of 70' before casting ExpRetreat, which brings him up to 100' base move in a round. If he takes the Run feat, then on the rounds when he has ExpRetreat active, he can move 500' per round. That's almost a MILE in one minute! He can quickly get into place and set up an ambush out of sight, spring the ambush moving from cover into firing position, fire, and move out of sight!
Have I descended into the dreaded realms of Munchkindom? Or does it depend on the backstory?
(edited to correct math problem)
Boots of Striding and Springing and Expeditious Retreat are both enhancement bonuses to speed and therefore don't stack. With Exp. Ret. your character moves 90 feet, not 100.
Now my own opinion, were I to play an archer, would be a fighter20 or AA. The +5 to your ammunition makes a great addition to a bow that adds lots of damage dice. Oh, and always take a feat or item ability that negates concealment in some way. My two cents.
I don't see the advantage of taking the AA PrC. By the time you can take your first level of AA(8th lvl), an Archer-oriented character should already have a +1 or +2 bow, assuming 1/3 of the "wealth by level" spent on a single item.
Now, if the AA dumped the "Enhance Arrow+X" abiliy and were compressed into a 5-level class, it might get more...entertaining. JMO
If I'm DMing, I guarantee you I'll find a way to take your fast moving scout out of the battle in a couple of rounds, regardless of how fast he is or how many arrows he can pickle off in a round or how high his attack bonus is. Is he good for anything else?
I dunno yet - I haven't finished him out! :D And yeah - he was *definitely* built for outdoors adventuring. But you know - that's kinda like asking if a sword-&-board Fighter is good for anything other than melee...
Boots of Striding and Springing and Expeditious Retreat are both enhancement bonuses to speed and therefore don't stack. With Exp. Ret. your character moves 90 feet, not 100.
Crap - thanks for catching that. 60' base, 70' w/ Boots, 90' ExpRet.
On the mounted archer problem--I'm not aware of a good prestige class that might approximate, in fantasy terms, the prowess of the Mongols in this department, and the feat trees for mounted archery (and mounted combat in general) are woefully underdeveloped in D&D because most of our significant combat occurs underground. But a good mounted archer, with a suitably decked out horse, ought to be able to outmaneuver your scout in open terrain (whether or not that's supported by RAW). In the absence of a PrC, I'd use a fighter build for this one, with Animal Affinity, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Improved Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and of course the Weapon Focus sequence.
There ought to be a couple of nifty specialized feats, maybe Ancestor feats that allow you to do cool things with your bow from horseback. The Mongols were adept at drawing their enemies into pursuit by feigning retreat. Then they would shoot directly over the rumps of their horses at full gallop (no mean feat, this), felling their enemies in the moment of their imagined triumph. There's a feat in there somewhere, perhaps involving a Bluff check. The Mongols had other nifty tricks like drinking the blood of their horses and sleeping in the saddle that allowed them to cover long distances very quickly without a cumbersome supply train.
A mounted archer character is a bit over-specialized for the average campaign, but could be really cool in a wilderness focused campaign.
Guess I'll have to come up with a prestige class for my homebrew campaign.
For those that actually like to put these things together I'd be interested in seeing a crossbow based build.
For those that actually like to put these things together I'd be interested in seeing a crossbow based build.
We're getting there... But hey - why not just take an archer build and replace the long/shortbow w/ a crossbow? Replace one feat with Rapid Reload.
I dunno yet - I haven't finished him out! :D And yeah - he was *definitely* built for outdoors adventuring. But you know - that's kinda like asking if a sword-&-board Fighter is good for anything other than melee...
I don't have Complete Adventurer yet. Can your Scout track? Can he deal with wild animals? Environmental hazards of nature and simple traps that humanoid opponents use in the wild? Poisoned arrows and snake venom? Can he move unhindered through the undergrowth? If I'm playing an outdoor campaign, I probably take ranger as primary class, take a few rogue levels for the sneak attack or fighter levels for bonus feats, and buy a horse if I want to move quickly. A light warhorse with horseshoes of speed moves 80 feet, and doesn't cost you any levels or feats (just 3,000 gp for the magic horseshoes). And you can buff the horse quite nicely by taking it as your animal companion. If you're moving 90 ft per round, you're certainly not going to be very quiet, so you might as well be on the back of a thundering horse--which allows you to take a full ranged attack while the horse does the moving for you, and gives you an extra three attacks if your opponents do manage to close range and force you into melee. People say ranger is an underpowered class, but I think those who make such assertions are thinking primarily in terms of toe-to-toe combat ability and not overall survivability and usefulness.
Sword and board fighters may be less versatile than many other characters, but just about every party likes to have one--they soak up damage and keep the bad guys occupied so the archers and spellcasters can do their thing unhindered. And they do tend to be pretty good at breaking down doors, intimidating prisoners, and carrying huge amounts of loot on their backs, when the subtler classes don't happen to have the right tools/spells handy for the job. And in a pinch they can usually manage to use ranged weapons with a modicum of effectiveness.
For those that actually like to put these things together I'd be interested in seeing a crossbow based build.We're getting there... But hey - why not just take an archer build and replace the long/shortbow w/ a crossbow? Replace one feat with Rapid Reload.
Well Many Shot would have to go...hmm...this might actually be all that is needed.
I don't have Complete Adventurer yet. Can your Scout track? Can he deal with wild animals? Environmental hazards of nature and simple traps that humanoid opponents use in the wild? Poisoned arrows and snake venom? Can he move unhindered through the undergrowth?
The Scout's class abilities are:
Skirmish (+damage and +AC if you move 10' or more), Trapfinding, Battle Fortitude, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement, Trackless Step, Bonus Feat (every 4th lvl), Evasion, Flawless Stride, Camouflage, Blindsense, Hide in Plain Sight, Free Movement, BlindsightTrack is on the bonus feat list. Skirmish is a replacement for a Rogue's Sneak Attack. Oddly, even though Trapfinding is a class ability, neither Disable Device nor Open Locks is on the class skills-list. Of course, the 8+INT skill points lets you pick them up cross-class without as much pain...
and buy a horse if I want to move quickly. A light warhorse with horseshoes of speed moves 80 feet, and doesn't cost you any levels or feats (just 3,000 gp for the magic horseshoes).
Well, the point was, my mobile arty build didn't "waste" levels, imo. The movement comes as class abilities along with other abilities like Skirmish.
If you're moving 90 ft per round, you're certainly not going to be very quiet,
Well, you can move up to 1/2 your base move without a penalty on Move Silently and up to your base move with a -5 penalty. So my guy can move up to 35' (45' under ExpRet) without penalty, as opposed to a normal character's limit of 15'. At 90' per round, he only has a -5 penalty to move silently.
horse--which allows you to take a full ranged attack while the horse does the moving for you, and gives you an extra three attacks if your opponents do manage to close range and force you into melee.
Yah, yah - wait for the Mounted Archer build whydoncha?! LOL
Sword and board fighters may be less versatile than many other characters
Point being, a sword&board fighter is about as specialized as a mobile archer. Negating a mobile archer for pulling his "trick" can be said for the s&b fighter as well.
but just about every party likes to have one
I have one player who tries to be a melee-monster no matter what class he plays. Otherwise, all my players tend to play sneaky or distance-oriented characters.
I guess my real point was to move away from a min-maxed character
And of course this gets back to my initial post on this topic - "Best at *what*?" Being able to track or spot traps doesn't make you a better archer. Being able to put more pointy sticks in a target *does.* Overspecialized? No more so than a melee-specialized Fighter, imo. The "best ___" *has* to be specialized at ___ or he's not the *best.* "The Most Versatile Archer" is obviously going to look a good bit different.
|
|
Right now, I'm playing "Shackled city" (we just got back with the dwarf Zenith), and I only joined that group in march.
My PC is a very good archer.
When I first met the DM, the deal was : "we have 2 good fighters, 1 cleric and 2 mages (one with a few clerical talents). We need a roguish PC, whatever it is...".
I didn't want to play a straight rogue. I was able to create a 7th level PC. I also wanted to be good at archery, since I would not be able to be as good in melee as both fighting PCs.
I created a 4th level scout / 3rd level ranger (to be able to find and disable traps, be swift and discreet, I also needed lots of skill points). The DM allows us to have 78 points (average score 13) to create the PC as we wish.
Right now, my PC is 8th level (human CG scout 5 / ranger 3) from Tethyr in the FR :
now : S 14 / D 18 (20) / Co 18 / I 12 / W 10 / Ch 8
(I began S 14/ D 16/Co 18/ I 12/ W 10/Ch 8 : that's a 38 points buy equivalent).
His feats are : adventurer's luck (Tethyr), precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot, improve toughness, weapon focus (composite longbow), track, endurance.
In my gear, I have a composite longbow (str 14) +1, gauntlets of dexterity +2, masterwork falchion, cloak of protection +1 (saves), studded leather +2.
initiative +6, movement 40 feet (8), 84 hit points, AC 21 (FF : 21 / touch : 18), saves F +11 / R +14 / W +4.
When my target is at point blank, my full attack action is :
3 arrows fired, attack +12 / +12 / +7, dealing damage equal to d8 +4 for each arrow.
And I'm still good in many skills (tumble, search, disable device, listen, spot, move silently, hide, ...).
This makes a very good archer PC, not too powerful, with lots of possibilities (RP and fights).
I'll take another scout level, another ranger level, iron will feat at 9th, and then I'll head toward Order of the bow initiate (for an archer, it's great to be able to fire arows in melee).