I have noticed that there is a lot of elf hate out there in the gamer community. I am curious as to why. Is it because of game balance issues, or because of a resentment toward certain elves in fiction?
It seems to me that in a fantasy setting that allows non-humans elves are a natural "Core" race (at least in D&D - other games are well other games), as are dwarves, and even gnomes. Halflings, Half-elves, Half-orcs - I can see not fitting. Although I tend to stay away from them myself I wouldn't just sideline them.
I have problems with almost all of the races and the whole everyone is everywhere flavor of most campaign worlds - but then I prefer homebrew campaign worlds.
What is it about elves specifically that sets people off?
I prefer playing elves so I want to know what I am missing.
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I know some people who think that elves get way too much attention. They always site Lord of the Rings and Forgotten Realms when they say this. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. I do think that some of the other races get short-changed sometimes (no pun intended).
I used to be fanatical about elves, but these days the pendulum is swinging more towards dwarves (must be the engineer in me).
As for elves, i'm not too fond of them. There are a few reasons that I dislike elves. Everyone in my adventuring group uses them, I have yet to see the other core races used much(besides humans). And for humans, i'm ok with them. I am one right? Humans also seem a little more un-fairy like. Most elves that I think of is a skiny, short, long-eared, snappy, and young fairy looking thingy. And whenever someone in our group makes a elf it's a ranger, we only have one elf that is not a ranger but a fighter, and he also uses ranged. I actually seem to like gnomes over other races. I will never be an elf until our party gets tired of them or finally sees the other races as pickable. Our group seems not to notice the other races. My personal preference of race would be the gnome. I guess you could call me and elf "hater". But that's just me.
~Flabulater OUT!
I hate elves and I'm not afraid to say it. Why? Because of elven supremacists. All this "Elves invented magic" and "Elves invented archery" and "I was old when your grandfather was born" garbage. Elves think that they're better than everyone else, but the truth is that they live so long that they can't see in the short term and just don't have a grip on real life anymore. Besides if elves are so great, why can members of every other race match their skill in every field despite shorter life spans? Because elves are lazy. Who cares if you live to be 1200 years old if you don't accomplish anything? Not to mention that that 40 year old human wizard has already achieved the same level of power that your 2000 year old elven archmage has. Now who's smarter?
In summation, elves are arrogant, self-aggrandizing, lazy, untrustworthy, self-serving, looking-down-their-noses sluggards whose time has long since passed. They all need to get haircuts and jobs.
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I hate elves and I'm not afraid to say it. Why? Because of elven supremacists. All this "Elves invented magic" and "Elves invented archery" and "I was old when your grandfather was born" garbage. Elves think that they're better than everyone else, but the truth is that they live so long that they can't see in the short term and just don't have a grip on real life anymore. Besides if elves are so great, why can members of every other race match their skill in every field despite shorter life spans? Because elves are lazy. Who cares if you live to be 1200 years old if you don't accomplish anything? Not to mention that that 40 year old human wizard has already achieved the same level of power that your 2000 year old elven archmage has. Now who's smarter?
In summation, elves are arrogant, self-aggrandizing, lazy, untrustworthy, self-serving, looking-down-their-noses sluggards whose time has long since passed. They all need to get haircuts and jobs.
So tell us how you really feel.
Seriously though, chill out. If you don't like the way other people write about elves, don't use that stuff. All that rage, man, you're starting to sound like me when I talk about Eberron.
Can't we all just get along?
I have noticed that there is a lot of elf hate out there in the gamer community. I am curious as to why. Is it because of game balance issues, or because of a resentment toward certain elves in fiction?
In earlier editions of D&D, humans were the blank slate and other races got lots of goodies -- none moreso than the elf. So you ended up seeing these all-elf parties all over the place, often without any kind of RP element, just being treated as humans with pointy ears.
Also, the 2e "Book of Elves" was just obnoxious -- and this is from somebody who is very elf-friendly. The introduction has this "All you poor non-elf saps must WISH you were elves. Wow, sucks to be you; you could never aspire to be a fraction as awesome as we are..." attitude that really grates. I've been told the rules parts are quite broken, too, but I haven't studied them.
Now mind you, I don't hate elves. In fact, I love 'em to death. But I don't think D&D handles 'em real well generally. As I posted in the "What races would you modify?" thread, what they really need is to be pumped up a bit so the rules support the fluff written for them -- with the associated LA hit so that the only people who play elves will be people who actually care about playing elves specifically.
-The Gneech
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I pity elves. The poor slobs are slaves to the fat man, making toys all year long up in the North pole.
Seriously though, I don't have strong feelings about elves. I think the biggest gripe I have is that they are the best at so many things. Part of this is their roots in tolkien, which is understandable, but annoying nonetheless. Elves are credited with making exceptional weapons and armor (elven chain, various elven blades patterned after LotR), yet they don't otherwise have an affinity with mining/smelting. They are masters of arcane arts, but live in forests were druids would be more appropriate.
They're also hard to roleplay well because they live so long. The elf in your group remembers when the City of Diamond Lake was 2 mines and a handful of cabins. His father remembers when the Free City was a fur trading post. Elven characters should know the past century or so of history of the region just as you know the past couple decades of your life. It's hard to take the scale of the elves as portrayed in Tolkien and bring it down to 1st level.
Elves are also annoying if you think characters shouldn't be able to level so fast within game time. For an elf to go from 1st level to 20th level in a year of game time is the equivalent to elves of a human going from 1st level to 20th level in a week.
Anyway, that's my ramble.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also, the 2e "Book of Elves" was just obnoxious -- and this is from somebody who is very elf-friendly. The introduction has this "All you poor non-elf saps must WISH you were elves. Wow, sucks to be you; you could never aspire to be a fraction as awesome as we are..." attitude that really grates. I've been told the rules parts are quite broken, too, but I haven't studied them.
*shudder* For those not familiar with the 2e book of elves, it is the reason that old time gamers automatically assume that the bladesinger is a cheesy munchkin class. It was truly and horribly degenerate.
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So tell us how you really feel.
Seriously though, chill out. If you don't like the way other people write about elves, don't use that stuff. All that rage, man, you're starting to sound like me when I talk about Eberron.
Can't we all just get along?
Eberron?!? Don't get me started about the trains and robots again - the doctor said it's not good for my blood pressure ;)
In summation, elves are arrogant, self-aggrandizing, lazy, untrustworthy, self-serving, looking-down-their-noses sluggards whose time has long since passed. They all need to get haircuts and jobs.
Yeah those damn hippies, no I mean elves, singing dancing in meadows, putting flowers in thier hair. Thinking thier sooo superior because they refuse to do a real days work and cut thier hair like normal folk. I
They could learn a thing from dwarves. who got the good work ethic.
I hate elves and I'm not afraid to say it. Why? Because of elven supremacists. All this "Elves invented magic" and "Elves invented archery" and "I was old when your grandfather was born" garbage. Elves think that they're better than everyone else, but the truth is that they live so long that they can't see in the short term and just don't have a grip on real life anymore. Besides if elves are so great, why can members of every other race match their skill in every field despite shorter life spans? Because elves are lazy. Who cares if you live to be 1200 years old if you don't accomplish anything? Not to mention that that 40 year old human wizard has already achieved the same level of power that your 2000 year old elven archmage has. Now who's smarter?
In summation, elves are arrogant, self-aggrandizing, lazy, untrustworthy, self-serving, looking-down-their-noses sluggards whose time has long since passed. They all need to get haircuts and jobs.So tell us how you really feel.
Seriously though, chill out. If you don't like the way other people write about elves, don't use that stuff. All that rage, man, you're starting to sound like me when I talk about Eberron.
Can't we all just get along?
Huh. It never occurred to me that someone would take my post as a serious one. Apparently, I failed my Innuendo check. That must be why they removed that skill in 3.5.
In Tolkien's LotR, elves were left over bits of divinity. Closer in concept to angels than mortals. I think this potrayal continues to paint elves today, even though their stats DO NOT back up this claim. I find it frustrating that elves supposedly have the best magic, the best swordsmen, the best craftsmen, the best archers, and besides that live the longest. The fluff seems to say "elves are coolzer than everyone else, and nothing you ever do will match their amazing coolness!"
Here's the rub, the fluff and crunch just don't seem connect as far as elves are concerned. Their stats do not back up their wild claims. I can see how their improved dex would lend itself to good archers, but that's about it. A few ways to handle the situation, either drop their claims down to a reasonable level, or remove them as a standard player race and give them a steep adjusted level (is that the right term?) for anyone who wants to play one. Either way, it would make a lot more sense to me.
A third option, as described by a friend of mine it that perhaps the wild claims of the elves are just that, wild claims. They sure like to tell you how much better they are than you, but when the rubber hits the road they just aren't that much more powerful than anyone else.
I guess deep down, its the superior attitude that bothers me, in both real life and gaming. I like rooting for the underdog. As a kid, I loved batman because he had no super powers, but managed to hold his own anyways. In gaming I love it when mr. Inherently-better-than-you gets his nose ground in the dirt by some guy who won't even survive the century and doesn't have any special powers.
Apparently, I failed my Innuendo check. That must be why they removed that skill in 3.5.
Your failure was that you forgot who your core audience was. I made my sense motive check and appreciated your cynisism when I saw it.
Those damned elf-apologists...
A few ways to handle the situation, either drop their claims down to a reasonable level, or remove them as a standard player race and give them a steep adjusted level (is that the right term?) for anyone who wants to play one. Either way, it would make a lot more sense to me.
Or possibly just rule that elves "start" at 5th level or so, and disallow elves as a player race until 5th-level plus? (+/- levels for however your particular campaign scales)
-The Gneech
Huh. It never occurred to me that someone would take my post as a serious one. Apparently, I failed my Innuendo check. That must be why they removed that skill in 3.5.
If it makes you feel better, I thought it was hilarious :-)
In all seriousness though, it is the whole elf superiority thing that I find rankling. Not that I am saying this is a bad thing. Actually I appreciate the fact that the elves have social disadvantages (although no elf would ever see it this way). The fact that elves can only outperform the other races in terms of life span, but still think that they are better than everybody else makes them a more believable part of the setting then if they were the super ultra perfect people. All the races seem to have their own hubris, which gives D&D more depth and color.
I hate elves and I'm not afraid to say it. Why? Because of elven supremacists.
In summation, elves are arrogant, self-aggrandizing, lazy, untrustworthy, self-serving, looking-down-their-noses sluggards whose time has long since passed. They all need to get haircuts and jobs.
Well,what I really like are drowns and I don't know if you're considreing them here though but I have nothing against female elfs for that matter xD
Actually, elves(females) are really important to our rpg community.Think of a tavern without an elfic waitress, that would suck.
Still, I think there should be a thing or two that helps to actually back up some of the elves' lore. Unfortunately, a LA would automatically take them out of the realm of "standard races," as many people hate playing things with a LA. On second thought, this might not completely be a bad thing....
Oh, by the way, I like elves.
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I tried to post earlier, but it didn't work.
No matter.
I like elves. I've played my fair share of them. That being said, there is plenty I dislike about elves.
To begin with, I hate the "flavors" elves come in. Seriously. Humans might very well be the most adaptable creatures in D&D. At least, that's what the flavor text says. But elves move into an area, and within 2 generations, they have completely changed their racial modifiers. How does that make sense? What's the difference between a "Wild Elf" and a "Wood Elf" anyway? Why would they get dumber just because they've abandonded "civilization". There is an elf with just about every possible ability mod (including bonus to CON, iirc) which just irks the heck out of me.
Compare them to humans, again. What's the difference between someone who lives in the Kalahari and an Inuit? Cosmetic differences as far as D&D is concerned. Maybe feat choices. If you take the inuit to the Kalahari, he won't be any more uncomfortable than the guy that's native. Now, maybe that's not realistic, but seriously, there should be one 'race' of elf with the same ability adjustments, and then cultural variations. I could see having an "acquatic" variant, but all the rest just need to go somewhere else (like your campaign - not mine).
Now, others have said this as well, but I strongly second the fact that elves on average should be higher level than the rest of the world, on average. An elf that's been around for 200 years and hasn't even reached 2nd level yet? It sure does sound like he's lazy.
Now, this isn't the elves fault, entirely. You know how long an elf takes to grow up? Well, what are they like before they grow up? When do they get their first class level? The same problem exists with humans. When you play a barbarian human, you start the game at 15+1d6 years of age, and you have very few experiences. So, sometime between 16 and 21, you suddenly get a class level and a hit die, and skills appropriate to your class. The problem is simply exaggerated when you take a race that lives as long as elves do and try to figure out why they are such a low level.
I know elves take longer to mature, but what do they look like after 20 years? Are they still infants? Do they just take longer to find a "job"?
So, one problem with elves is there just isn't enough information about childhood for them (at least, in the core rules) making them seen awfully bizarre. If you want any kind of versimilitude in your game, every elf PC should be a runaway.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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To begin with, I hate the "flavors" elves come in. Seriously. Humans might very well be the most adaptable creatures in D&D. At least, that's what the flavor text says. But elves move into an area, and within 2 generations, they have completely changed their racial modifiers. How does that make sense? What's the difference between a "Wild Elf" and a "Wood Elf" anyway? Why would they get dumber just because they've abandonded "civilization". There is an elf with just about every possible ability mod (including bonus to CON, iirc) which just irks the heck out of me.
Compare them to humans, again. What's the difference between someone who lives in the Kalahari and an Inuit? Cosmetic differences as far as D&D is concerned. Maybe feat choices. If you take the inuit to the Kalahari, he won't be any more uncomfortable than the guy that's native. Now, maybe that's not realistic, but seriously, there should be one 'race' of elf with the same ability adjustments, and then cultural variations. I could see having an "acquatic" variant, but all the rest just need to go somewhere else (like your campaign - not mine).
I have the same pet peeve. Particularly when you take all the racial books/environment books/etc, there's a version of every race for every environment.
I have always hate elves. Both for fluff reasons (near immortal know-it-alls, who either invented or perfected everything) and rules reasons. In every edition I've played, and I've played them all, the elves come out the best when compared to the other core races.
In the current rules set elves are immune to sleep, weapon profiencies with longswords, rapiers, and bows, essentially (sp?) giving an non warrior type elf four free feats. They see well in the dark. Reason? - beats me. Have bonus toyseveral skills and can find a secret door by walking near it. Are there a lot of secret doors in the woods?
Of all gamers, elves come up the most often as a favorite race by far...at least in my experience which is why I am sick of them. On the other hand, I LOVE Tolkien elves because of their symmetry with his idea of divinity. It's just that d&d elves are cheap knock-offs, down to the sob story that they have in EVERY campaign setting trying to imitate Tolkien's theme. It's most obvious in FR, where they are at present emmigrating to Evermeet...gee can we say 'Valinor'? My lesser gripe is that to really imitate Tolkien elves, d&d elves would have to have about a +2 LA and abilities to match.
I would agree there's pros and cons as far as elves go, but people ought to be trashing warforged, ebberon, and most of the half-races before they get around to elves.
Incidentally, Mr. Vaughn, enjoyed the latest adventure in 136. Anything new for Greyhawk in the works?
Of all gamers, elves come up the most often as a favorite race by far...at least in my experience which is why I am sick of them. On the other hand, I LOVE Tolkien elves because of their symmetry with his idea of divinity. It's just that d&d elves are cheap knock-offs, down to the sob story that they have in EVERY campaign setting trying to imitate Tolkien's theme. It's most obvious in FR, where they are at present emmigrating to Evermeet...gee can we say 'Valinor'? My lesser gripe is that to really imitate Tolkien elves, d&d elves would have to have about a +2 LA and abilities to match.
Actually, they are currently returning to the Mainland, at least the younger generation, because Evermeet isn't the bastion it was suppose to be, since the island was recently attacked by a massive force.
Evermeet was suppose to be isolated, but not "Valinor." That was the impression given when 2nd edition insinuated that elves didn't die when they reached their maximum age, but rather, "went elsewhere." But Evermeet was at least similar enough in concept. I feel bad for anyone that liked the Lendore Isles before 2nd edition came round in Greyhawk.
Please, educate a younger gamer- Lendore Isles?
I can't remember many details about the Lendore Isles in 1st edition, but if I remember correctly, the isle had something to do with a reclusive mage, and there really weren't a lot of details to be had.
When 2nd edition came around, and D&D elves had to "go elsewhere" when they hit their maximum age, all of the sudden Sehinine Moonbow, elven goddess of death, magic, and illusion, sends her cult to take over the isles, and suddenly we have an elsewhere for elves to go in Greyhawk.
I beleive in 3rd edition the Lendore Isles are portrayed more as just a theocracy ruled by Sehinine worshippers rather than the "Misty Isle Oerth Franchise," but thats more or less what I recall of the whole situation.
Well why I despise them has been touched on already in this thread. Basically speaking they are hell to role play - and I never felt as though I've seen it done well. Most of the other races essentially facilitate role playing them but with elves one is faced with a situation where the player obviously wants to amass as much power as possible as quickly as possible. That's basically the nature of the game. If they are elves it all just feels wrong.
Their mechanics are essentially broken as they live so long that they tend to start breaking down the history of most campaigns. Half the time its been 5-10 generations of elves since the world itself was created or entered the current age or whatever. Elves with families are an absolute nightmare - I mean if you want to know the answer regarding rumours of the great Lich Empire 1000 years ago ask your grandfather - he was there.
Finally we end up with the skills. Your starting elf is 100 years old or something. He has already seen two generations of humans be born live their entire lives and die. He has also not learned a damn thing - hell he's less skilled then a 18 year old human. One would presume that its just natural that he is mentally retarded but that's about to fall by the wayside - as in the next 8 months he is going to go on a big adventure, become an arch mage or some such. And then he goes back to elf home and realized that normal elves really are utterly mentally retarded. I mean you have an elf that's 900 years old but being only 5th level our old elf is clearly an utter incompetent. Let the upstart show Mr. ancient doofus how you craft an item 'cause in 900 years this expert has apparently learned squat. What a utter looser an apparently this old geezer is held in esteem by the elf village. Man they must all be blind. The whole game mechanic is already busted but no where is that made so starkly clear as with elves. A 900 year old creature should be held with veneration most of the time and not with scorn.
I at first and for a long time hated elves. They were all pompous and arrogant jerks! All they do is say they are superior to everyone else. I loved dwarves as even though they lived longer and have done and seen their fare share of amazing things they were down to earth (forgive the pun). But then in the last campaign the dm had an NPC elf that was old and was more surly than most dwarves I have ever met, that is when I realized that elves don't have to be all arrogant jerks. They can surly and the complete opposite of what the standard prejudices are.
In short I think playing an elf would be fun but I don't think I would ever play one that was standard. No tree hugging hippy fairie for me! He would be surly and ticked off anytime a logger came near his home and wouldn't think of himself as above others as that would be foley!(one of the seven deadly sins)
I think they are fine, though I must agree about the whole "what have they been doing for the past 100 years of their life" argument when it comes to starting at first level.
WOW what a ramble
Later
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Elves in the established campaign worlds are sometimes a bit cheesy--it's in the nature of the game, which encourages variety (i.e. 18 subraces of everything) to keep the game fresh, and syncretism (i.e. borrow every cool idea from every source imaginable). It's especially true of my favorite established setting, Greyhawk, which, I don't feel (at least from what I've read) does a terribly good job of developing the cultural and historical depth of any of the non-human races--they're sort of window-dressing for the most part.
I think, though, with some creativity, elves can be made fresh, interesting, and meaningful in a homebrew world. It might require tinkering with the rules a bit, or it might just require thinking more about the origins of elvenkind, how they came to be what they are, how they relate to the other races, and how the various subraces came into being. (This obviously requires a very long-term sense of your world's history, unless you want to shorten elves' lifespans significantly).
Reading a bit more in the folkloric sources that Tolkien used to create his elves is one way to break away from our rather stereotyped notions of elves. Another is to invent interesting social and cultural traits that would fit with the elven image as "chaotic" (e.g. the usually lawful and patriarchal humans don't understand the elven kinship system, which is matrilineal and in which liaisons between men and women aren't formalized with public marriage rituals. Even the largest elven states are extremely decentralized, with most decisions being made by local chieftains known as "princes," who in turn owe only a nebulous loyalty to the elven king. Elves tend not to be very commercially minded and rarely have specialized merchants among them--this is because they believe that the profit motive leads people to rape nature for short-term gain.) Although most of them see themselves as creatures of the light, humans don't necessarily. Elves should have a dark, mysterious reputation, but not necessarily of the sort that the Drow have.
I agree that elves should be a bit more rare in PC ranks. Most elves live in remote areas that are rarely frequented by humans, and few elves leave those areas to rub shoulders with humanity--those that do are either permanent outcasts or they come to human lands on quests and return home after a few years (maybe as much as a decade) of adventuring. Humans venturing into elven lands do so at their peril, because they are usually suspected of spying and/or planning to exploit the land commercially. (So maybe they are a bit like hippies--but not quite so artificial or superficial).
I think a lot of newer players play elves because they are attractive--this is a game, after all, that allows us to escape our mundane, plain selves and choose more attractive and interesting alter egos. D&D fiction (FR, Dragonlance) has popularized a number of elf characters, as has the LOTR movie with Orlando Bloom the teen-dream playing Legolas. I'm not a big anime fan, but I've seen a lot of anime-inspired elves or pseudo-elves on comic book covers and fantasy art websites.
So I guess I qualify as an elf-apologist. I haven't played an elf PC since 1st ed., but I've had great fun reinventing elves for my homebrew world, and running elven NPCs.
I never felt as though I've seen it done well.
Well thats hardly the fault of the game. As I said when I kicked off this thread I like elves, but I when I play them I start them of relatively young, and try to come up with good back stories as to why they aren't already high level. I think I do a passbly good a job at this. But it is a role play game - if the gamers you play with pick bad roles and unfortunate stereotypes, well thats a different issue.
Their mechanics are essentially broken as they live so long that they tend to start breaking down the history of most campaigns. Half the time its been 5-10 generations of elves since the world itself was created or entered the current age or whatever. Elves with families are an absolute nightmare - I mean if you want to know the answer regarding rumours of the great Lich Empire 1000 years ago ask your grandfather - he was there.
Finally we end up with the skills. Your starting elf is 100 years old or something. He has already seen two generations of humans be born live their entire lives and die. He has also not learned a damn thing - hell he's less skilled then a 18 year old human. One would presume that its just natural that he is mentally retarded but that's about to fall by the wayside - as in the next 8 months he is going to go on a big adventure, become an arch mage or some such. And then he goes back to elf home and realized that normal elves really are utterly mentally retarded. I mean you have an elf that's 900 years old but being only 5th level our old elf is clearly an utter incompetent. Let the upstart show Mr. ancient doofus how you craft an item 'cause in 900 years this expert has apparently learned squat. What a utter looser an apparently this old geezer is held in esteem by the elf village. Man they must all be blind. The whole game mechanic is already busted but no where is that made so starkly clear as with elves. A 900 year old creature should be held with veneration most of the time and not with scorn.
Al though I wouldn't have said it quite like that I basically agree with all of this and many of the other comments about why they need work.
The fluff doesn't match the crunch as one poster wrote.
Think of our own history - a middle aged elf today was around before Columbus landed in the Americas, an old elf may remember the Norman Conquest - history breakdown with those lifespans and as a result - the presense of elves presumes a world that is developmentally stagnant - go from the middle ages - and there were elves during the dominance of the Greeks and Romans who saw the cruxification - the founding of Rome by two lads raised by wolves is in living memory - GRRR.
It just doesn't work with the way we view time and history today.
However though the model for elves has a strong LotR bent not all elves have that as their source - there are lots of other flavors of elves to draw on.
My gripe with elves is that the game worlds don't address them well.
Its interseting though that so much of the bashing is around how they are played rather than with their actual mechanics.
Anybody here remember elves as they were in Red Box DnD when they were a CLASS ?
They could wear any armour and use any weapon like a fighter AND use spells like a magic user AND see in the dark AND detect hidden doors AND were immune to ghoul paralysis!!!
It was like having 3 classes in 1.
The average party i played in back then usually had a 2 to 1 ratio of elves to any other class....and it was usually me as a cleric withholding the heal spells from the smug munchkins who played them ..:)
And many of the artifact abilities & bonuses that make elves seem out of wack are artifacts from that and the original AD&D.
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They also had their fair share of kin-murdering and ethnic prejudice.
Been awhile since I read up on Krynn, but it's not much better on the FR side. Ethnic prejudices laid to waste entire elven nations & were part of an entire elven subrace being cursed by the gods & cast down into the darkness during the Crown Wars. My favorite part of the Lost Empires of Faerun was that one. Shows that elves can be just as self-destructive, arrogant, & narrow-minded as any human or drow. Some of the events leading to the decline of Myth Drannor aren't much better.
This is one of the main reasons I really like the Scarred Lands campaign setting. Elves there have lost thier god (killed in the Divine War) and are, effectively, a lost people, unable, thanks to a dying curse inflicted upon them by the titan Chern, to bear children. They have taken to kidnapping humans and interbreeding with them producing a sizable race of Half-elves in the elf kingdoms.
Unfortuantely SS&S brought out a supplement that brought back their god and suddenly all the crimes the race had committed were swept under the rug - I hated that supplement and ignore it in my games.
I think it comes down to this:
Most game systems try to recreate the model for elves, Tolkiens elves. But to keep them at least somewhat balanced, they have cut them short severely in terms of abilites. As someone wrote, fluff vs. crunch, and it does not match.
And whats more, the RPG elves usually still come out somewhat more powerful than most other races, as seen in the Basic D&D example above, so munchkin players may choose elves as their favorites (mind you, not everyone playing an elf is a munchkin). Playing an elf is a challenge if you want to roleplay them good. Munchkins are seldom, if ever, good roleplayers, so the race needing the most effort to play them well ends up the hands of those players putting most of their effort in numbercrunching. This results in many people, especially DMs, disliking elves as they probably have seen too many bad examples.
The solution? Perhaps giving elves a level adjustment (for D&D, at least). Watch out for game balance, though - their abilities might need an upward adjustment if you give them a LA.
Or invent elven races with radically different abilities: One "High Elven" race, immortal, mysterious, seldom seen, with abilites far beyond anything a mere mortal could hope to achieve. (and of course, being pure NPCs), and a lesser race (or five), "fallen from grace" or something, more on par with normal humans in terms of abilities, life span, etc. Perhaps they are more similar to Tolkiens Numenoreans.
Just my 2c.
Stefan
In Forgotten Realms, there is a certain Elf God who wants to wage a genocidal war against the Drow, and tells his followers to never smile until every Drow and their Deities are wiped off the face of Toril. Even the Good ones, such as Drizzt and worshippers of Eilestraee. I don't know why Corellon ascended him. Corellon has a daughter and Ex-Wife who are both Drow, and he is fully aware that if this God completes his goal, they will be put to the sword or worse. In Weapons of Legacy, The God has a black bow which has a story behind it. The wielder of the bow fell in love with a drow exile for who she was, who was much like Drizzt, and the wielder decided to give the bow back to the temple, but was struck by lightning by the God himself for consorting with the "accursed Drow."
Shevarash does not automatically require the death of "good" drow, nor is he an enemy of Eilistaraee, although convinsing a follower of Shevarash that you are a "good" drow is nearly impossible. Shevarash himself doesn't trust Eilistraee, but tolerates her because of Corellon. Individual cells of worshippers run the gamut of extreem behavior concerning drow.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention the Eldreth Veluuthra. Its a group in FR, that while not large, is well connected. They want to a) drive non-elves from elven lands and b) drive all non-elves out of Toril all together. They are all evil and elf supremecists, and don't understand why they can't get divine spells from Corellon, but then convince themselves that when they finally get rid of all the non-elves that Corellon will appreciate them again.
I think we have a couple of issues in seeing a culture in a fantasy setting that is not our own world. In our own world, being a racist is one of the worst things you can be, and we have seen what damage is wrought from this from the Civil War, to the Civil Rights movement, and from events like the Holocaust.
The problem is elves really ARE another race, and they really HAVE been around longer and been more civilized longer than humans and other races.
Also, we assume that if a gold elf, for example, constantly refers to humans as balding apes, tells wizards that everything they know they stole from elves, tells human females that they are cows compared to elven beauty, etc. that he must be neutral or evil. What if this same elf, despite his veiws of elven superiority, would still give his life to save a "lesser" race, beacuse he beleives in their potential and because its the duty of the "betters" to defend the "lessers?"
In FR, elves are immigrants from Faerie. The Sidhe in Faerie are essentially Fiendish or Celestial elves, and probably are immortal since they are only briefly touched on it the Manual of the Planes.
It could be that the earlier generations of elves lived much longer, but away from Faerie, they lost some of their other abilities. Slowly, over time, the elves became more "mortal" than they were when they lived in Faerie (but they left Faerie due to a major cataclysm that affected them).
I beleive some sources also linked Araushnee (Lolth before she was cast down as a demon) as having ties to the Queen of Air and Darkness and the Unseelee Court.
The Green Ronin Advanced Line of books has rules in it for allowing an elf, dwarf, etc. PC to take slightly more "powerful" racial traits at the cost of an increasing level adjustment. You may not even have to allow all elves to take these abilities, but just rule that some elves are "throwbacks" to their fey natures, or their holy natures if you want to follow Tolkien more closely.
This might also be why half-elves are looked down on, since they represent a further dissolution of standard "elven" traits.
Just some thoughts.
Well, I would have to say that, following the cannon of FR and DL, elves are far from their Chaotic Good archetypes due to their all-to-human motives. Which, by the way, I see to be just that; too human. The elves, as was mentioned above, are another race; they have different mindsets, different mores, different views, etc. When they begin to appear to be acting like humans in cannon, I can't help but think of a little bit that the authors aren't really thinking about what they are doing.
The problem is mitigated somewhat if the elven population is stressed as being EXTREMELY small- as in, you rarely ever see one unless you are in an elven culture. They need a commensurately small birthrate. Adventuring elves should be cultural aberrations (though not necessarily disdained). Now, have all elves possess several (at least 3) levels, perhaps in NPC classes (aristocrat/expert could be their equivalent to a commoner), perhaps in player classes. Then their "crunch" matches the "fuff" in their portrayal, being that any given elf is far superior to their human counterparts in other societies.
Those elves who live a long time become very powerful, possibly even epic, figures, but their long-term views of life drive them to become defenders/leaders of their communities (druids and sorcerers or whatnot that ward entire forests, keeping the evil at bay).
It also helps if your campaign has a strong presence of a threat to the elves, which keeps their numbers low and stops many of them from reaching maturity. The drow can do this well (At the risk of putting even more emphasis on them in FR; in my homebrew, they are actually under-represented, and my group hasn't been playing long enough for them to become so annoying as they are to many other people; Placing a little more attention on them might be a good thing for me), as can demonic invasions, divine curses, etc.
Last but not least, their attitude must be shown properly, through word and deed. Though the (human) man on the street might think of elves as all being dangerous wizards, rife with mystery and up to no good, their actual history should not reflect this (remember, facts rarely matter to prejudice).
Elves should be patient, wise, and gentle. To be truthful, an elven character/NPC should probably have a much higher
Wisdom score than is needed for his class, to reflect this. However, this rarely is the case and is more of the fault of the character's builder than the elven race. In truth, they should probably have a bonus to Wisdom and Intelligence, and carry the previously mentioned level adjustment. Maybe throw in a few spell-like abilities, similar to a gnome?
Anyway, back to elven attitudes. They should be subtle and patient, working gently from the shadows, a voice of calm, reason, and hope in a world of chaos and darkness (speaking of chaos, I really don't see them as all that Chaotic; Neutral Good at best as an average, and probably more lenient towards Lawful in truth). They rarely make an appearance, but in truth, are secretly guiding the affairs of nations around the world, or at least trying to, stopping wars and disasters. When they do appear, it should typically be dramatic (not necessarily whiz-bang, but with clear and heavy social meaning).
Most elven adventurers should be sent out on quests of some sort, when patience won't work in a given situation and action is required. This would add a special feel to elven characters; mistrust by many, awe and respect by the enlightened, regardless of the elf's level.
In my homebrew, the current era is defined by the rise and dominance of humans, as in many settings. The previous rulers were elves and giants. The giants were a destructive race, with a very territorial, conquest-oriented mindset. Again, fairly standard. They began to use humans and other "lesser" races as slaves. The elves saw potential in humans and began to raid the giant cities and liberate them, teaching them magic and culture. They were patient guardians and mentors of this new race, and helped them to found a new empire, which did war with the giants and helped to drive them out of power. Unfortunately, the humans were not all possessed of the wisdom of the elves, and brought calamity on the world as they experimented with their new magical knowledge, creating a semi-permanent rift to the Netherworld and letting the hordes of the Abyss into the world. Though defeated, the planar invaders changed the face of the world. Since then, elves have had little direct influence on the humans, who have gone about ruling the world as they see fit, and who have, as is typical in D&D, begun to take over the ancestral elven home.
Will the elves defend their forest against all intruders? Yes; preferablly with non-lethal means and magic, but sword, bow, and spell will be used with lethal accuracy if needed.
Think about it this way: There are millions of people in real life who would love to tour military installations and such. But, would it make any sense to open the doors to Roswell and say, "Okay, come look at all the secrets"? No, though many of those millions would do no evil with that knowledge and never pass it to an enemy spy. It still makes no sense. If you try to enter such an area, you will be met with increasing levels of resistance, going to lethal if need be.
The same holds true for defense of the elven homes.
As far as their superior attitude, think of a jaded doctor, or someone else who is dedicated to preserving society in some way. But, they see so much corruption, ignorance, and self-destruction that they become cynical, yet they continue to do what they have always done because, inside, their hope and faith remains. The same holds true for elves. If they seem hauty and condescending to humans, it is only because humans and other races have, time and again, proven the elves right that they can't really manage the world.
Now, that's not saying something could happen to make an elf go bad, just as there are things that can make an orc go good. It's a strong, almost universal, but ultimately cultural bent. And, just like an orc that goes good, an elf that didn't conform to the standards of the rest of his society would be an outcast. So, if a player wants to play a CN elf that just does whatever the hell he wants, with no thought to meanings or outcomes, that's fine, he's an exception amongst exceptions, and should be treated with disdain or disgust by others who know of this. He'd also be a likely target for latent racism against elves to surface against, making his lifespan much more in line with a human's. :)
In the end, the best way to play elves is probably the back-to-basics, with a near-angelic, Tolkien-esque bent. Does this divorce them from human characteristics, such as frequent moments of weakness, falling to sin and temptation, etc? Largely, yes. They are ANOTHER RACE, as in NOT HUMAN. It's okay for them to act and present themselves that way. Exceptions would remain (In the LotR movies, Elrond should have slain Isildur and thrown the ring into the chasm for the good of all the world, but he didn't), but by and large, the model of elves as a superior race can hold.
Sorry for the long, somewhat rambling post, but I just don't see how elves are inherrently (sp?) broken from their traditional portrayal. The model can hold; the problem is that DMs, players, and game designers the world over have not portrayed them properly, and in this case, there is a proper way to do things, because if not followed, then you get all the numerous problems that can surface with elves (no offense intended to anyone!). I also now see that the best way to passively "instruct" people about elves would be to give them some more ability adjustments, etc., and then tack on a LA (oh, and have a better description in the PHB!).
By the way, I don't hear anyone jumping on dragons, but they face the same problems. With their age and abilities, why aren't they 20th level in every class available? I'm not complaining about this, but just pointing out that elves aren't the only ones with logical problems, and that's why this is fantasy.
By the way, I don't hear anyone jumping on dragons, but they face the same problems. With their age and abilities, why aren't they 20th level in every class available? I'm not complaining about this, but just pointing out that elves aren't the only ones with logical problems, and that's why this is fantasy.
Dragons aren't a playable race, most of the time. :)
-The Gneech
The implications stand.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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By the way, I don't hear anyone jumping on dragons, but they face the same problems. With their age and abilities, why aren't they 20th level in every class available? I'm not complaining about this, but just pointing out that elves aren't the only ones with logical problems, and that's why this is fantasy.
They don't need to have 20 levels in every class, they have the abilities of gestalted fighter/sorcerer already. I suppose you could jack up their skill points.
Dragons IMC tend to be the secret movers and shakers behind a lot of things. I treat them as illuminati level powers, secretly directing the kingdoms of man and other lesser races. The only thing that keeps them in check is the fact that there are always other dragons on the other side of the table with differing goals and methods.
The inspiration actually came from a KotD strip. They defeated a dragon and discovered that he didn't have a hoarde. The dragon explained that it was unwise to keep so much liquid wealth in one place and that the return on capital was pathetic. So, instead of having a hoarde, the dragon had invested his wealth in various projects around the kingdom. That's how my dragons operate. Some liquidity, but lots of wealth tied up in land, organizations, and other assets.
My point is that elves, as a player race, get a lot more detailed attention than dragons do. Elves are picked apart because they're in every group; dragons simply get accepted as part of the background.
-The Gneech
I hate elves and I'm not afraid to say it. Why? Because of elven supremacists. All this "Elves invented magic" and "Elves invented archery" and "I was old when your grandfather was born" garbage. Elves think that they're better than everyone else, but the truth is that they live so long that they can't see in the short term and just don't have a grip on real life anymore. Besides if elves are so great, why can members of every other race match their skill in every field despite shorter life spans? Because elves are lazy. Who cares if you live to be 1200 years old if you don't accomplish anything? Not to mention that that 40 year old human wizard has already achieved the same level of power that your 2000 year old elven archmage has. Now who's smarter?
In summation, elves are arrogant, self-aggrandizing, lazy, untrustworthy, self-serving, looking-down-their-noses sluggards whose time has long since passed. They all need to get haircuts and jobs.
So tell us how you really feel.
Seriously though, chill out. If you don't like the way other people write about elves, don't use that stuff. All that rage, man, you're starting to sound like me when I talk about Eberron.
Can't we all just get along?
Yep. This stuff reaally drives me nuts.
I really think that no matter ho w lazy elves are, it's simply not realistic that a 40 YO human can match the same power of a 600 YO elf...And even if I allow for elves' laziness, what about Drow????
Drizzt battled enemies everey damn day since he was perhaps five... And enemies who are much tougher than the average human.
He left Menzoberranzan at approximately 100 Years of age IE 95 years of continuous drilling and honing of his abilities...
He should have been at least 50th level by then, not the puny 16th that the stats give him!!!!!
Drows should simply be the most powerful race in the world.
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Honestly, after skimming some of the multitudinous posts on this subject, I can see that there is "elf hate" out there. Myself, I've never experienced it first-hand. Practically every gaming group I've been in has had at least the token elf (of various different classes), though there have been more than a few elf-less parties. I've seen far fewer dwarves or gnomes (usually selected by one of us RP-heavy gamers who want to try something different). I know there are different opinions out there, but I don't really see any of the races as being out of balance or better-than/worse-than any of the others. They all fill different niches, and if there are those who don't find elves attractive to play then all the power to you. That's why there's half-orcs (or gnomes, or dwarves ... or *gasp* humans!)
Down with all elves!
I got my own back on them though. IMC, elves are by far the most delicious player race. This is so widely known that any monster that views the PCs as a food source will automatically target any elves first, as they are so very tasty.
And you think I'm joking...