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Writing on another thread got me in a mood to discuss this, so here goes. Personally I have always liked the mechanics behind seed magic. It gives a great deal of freedom and room for creativity. IMHO it’s the best section from the epic level handbook (other than the art and monsters, you can never have too many monsters >:) My only complaint is that it seems like too much power too quick. As soon as you hit level 21 you buy the feat and kaboom, you are suddenly endowed with far greater ability than you had before, just add xp. This comes to my second complaint which is that the wizard epic level progression is really weak. You get no more spells per day, no new abilities, no increases to saves, just a few bonus feats every once in a while (do you still get two spells per level?). In other words, there is no compelling reason to get more wizard levels once you hit epic as they really give you nothing a prestige class wouldn’t (and even those seem a little anemic).

My next thought is that maybe you could kill two birds with one stone. Get rid of the seed magic feat and turn it into part of the epic wizard progression That way you would be adding seeds as the wizard grew in understanding and power, which I find to be far more reasonable than sudden massive jumps in ability. Also the epic wizard progression would be a lot more interesting this way. As a bonus you would see real diversification between epic level casters depending on which seeds they picked.

As always I would love to hear your ideas and opinions and about any experiences you may have had.

so what is wrong, exactly, with low level wizards crafting their own magic?

Not wrong, just a different way of looking at things. Standard DnD has wizards researching two spells per level, as has been mentioned. Meaning that even the lowest level magic user knows enough theory to drum up their own spells given the time. If you go by this (not at all a bad thing) then I could easily see wizards coming up with their own variations on common spells at relatively low levels, and branching farther out from the norm as they grow in power and knowledge. What the separation between this and seed magic is, besides power scale, I’m not too clear on.

What Grimcleaver was suggesting (correct me if I’m wrong) is that wizards are magic users who learn the magic of others while archmages are those who have progressed to the point of creating their own magic. Seed magic would be given seed by seed to archmages in their level progression instead of being a feat. This would represent the archmage’s grasp of magic expanding as he continued his studies. In this scenario I would argue that wizards would be limited to spells out of the books whenever they leveled up (with exceptions noted in my previous post) because they are only learning the spells that have already been created. The only way they could get a custom spell would be by paying an archmage to research it for them and then give them a copy. This spin on things could easily be worked into the core rules by extending and tweaking the archmage prestige class. The only conflict I see is with the two spells wizards get when they level. If they aren’t researching the spells, then where do they come from? That’s what I’m wondering about. Again, it’s not that I think the standard way of doing things is wrong, I just like the unique spins people put on the old ideas and was looking for a bit of clarification.

As far as new spells for a specific world, I think they’re great. Going the extra mile this way can really add some flavor to your setting and I think it’s great that you are doing it. Personally if I were doing such a task, the first thing I would change would be the “named” spells, like all the Tensor/Mordenkeinen ones, as these people probably don’t exist in most homebrew settings and this gives you a great chance to come up with your own signature archmages. BTW, have you posted anything in the campaign journals?

As a side note, I don’t really like how the seed magic feat works. Not the actual seed magic mechanics, but it seemed like too much too quick. Actually, I better set up a thread for this.

I've always thought that the designers simply gave us a few examples of spells in the Spell chapter of PHB, never intending these spells to be thought of as more common or special than other possible spells.

Hmmmmm, personally I tend to be in this camp as a GM. Although D&D has a much better core list of spells than most games I have run. A few systems I have used have all but required this train of thought as the core list of spells were very limited and had magic users feeling like carbon copies of each other without a little fiddling with the basics.

I agree that spells in the core book represent the most common spells known, but I think that there would be a lot of regional variation. For instance, in a desert region, my guess is that fireball spells are hard to come by as the local denizens are probably resistant or immune to fire. Finding a coldball spell there probably wouldn’t be too hard. Sorcerers, on the other hand, would probably have the opposite trend as they seem to draw their abilities much more closely from their homelands and bloodlines than their practical and analytical brethren. This, however, is a mere observation as I would hate to pin down people as fluid as sorcerers with trends.

To sum things up, I think a sorcerer would have a much easier time creating a coldball than a wizard as their personalized brand of magic probably scoffs at the idea of “lists” of possible spells. A wizard though, should have a difficult time coming up with anything beyond A: the type of magic he was taught be his master, be this the core spell list or something the player works out with the GM. Or B: the kind of magic/scrolls/tutoring that is locally available.

This brings up a question. Although I like Grim’s definition of wizards/arch mages I’m not sure how to reconcile it with the idea of wizards researching their own spells whenever they level up as this seems to indicate that wizards, even low level ones, are crafting their own magic.

P.S.: WoooT Wheel of Time.

I think Chicken Soup for the American Soul has what you are looking for. Great book even if its not in it. A friend let me read it a little after 9/11.

I just had to create a pantheon for a campaign I am currently running, and it can be a bit daunting. Personally I found the Deities and Demigods book quite helpful. Most of the book contains information on various Grayhawk and Earth gods, which can help spark a few ideas. The first chapter, however, contains tips and tricks to creating your own pantheon. They have a chart of some 150 different portfolios. To jump start myself I rolled two or three times on this chart for each god and then came up with a dogma to cover the portfolio. The book also has the minimum number of gods for a pantheon broken down by potential worshiper. This helped me to break down the job into reasonable parts and made it much more manageable. The book also contains a section on writing up gods as characters, it even includes a list of divine feats. Personally I didn’t use this as it seemed way to much work for what I was doing. In a campaign where the characters play as gods, it would be nice to have though. I need to touch it up a bit, but I will go ahead and post the gods I came up with on the Campaign Journals/Saratiel: Prestige Class/Gestalt Setting thread (It’s probably a bit big to post here). Feel free to peruse it for ideas or to comment on it (I love to hear the ideas of my fellow Paizonians). Good luck in your endeavor, be sure to post when you finish.

Oops, looks like Sel beat me to the punch and posted that story on another thread.

Sorry man, It’s been out of print for a while. I couldn’t even find one on Ebay. The only one I have ever seen belongs to a member of my gaming group. Still, it is worth looking for. AEG was running it once at there booth and offered an open challenge to any one who wanted to try it with no character limitations. The only catch was that when someone bit the dust, they got to keep the character sheet. They pinned them to their booth and had a nice new wallpaper before the day was through. It’s well worth looking for. Check out some online bookstores. You might be able to find it used somewhere

I have to agree, the Shadowlands are Awful. More than just being tough to kill, the denizens of the Shadowlands are just horrible to even think about. The writers went the extra mile to do them justice. I’ll mention just a few things to add to the excellent descriptions already given. First the land itself shifts, so that locations move within the Shadowlands. Obviously, no reliable maps are to be had since they tend to go out of date very quickly. The upshot of this is that when you lose sight of the Wall (the huge stone embattlement built by the Crab clan to keep the Shadowlands in the Shadowlands) you have no guarantee that you will ever find your way out. This just gives me the willies. Even if you don’t succumb to the taint, get eaten by and oni, or run afoul of the flora, home may not be in the direction you thought it was. Also, involvement with the Shadowlands has social ramifications. The rest of Rokugan tries to pretend the Shadowlands don’t exist. Defending against it is the Crab’s problem and that’s just fine with everyone else. Also, since oni have no honor, you gain no honor from defeating one. The only ones who will acknowledge your accomplishments are the Crab. Worse than this, many people will shun you when they learn that you have spent time in the Shadowlands or on the Wall for fear of contracting taint from you (not an entirely unreasonable fear).

A short story out of the Crab clan book comes to mind (the AEG version). Goes something like this: A samurai from another clan is sent to the Wall for a bit of penal duty (NEVER tick off your lord). In the middle of the night he hears a man screaming at the top of his lungs outside. He slips on his armor, grabs his Katana and runs toward the noise. By the time he gets there, the screaming samurai is a pile of gibs and the oni that apparently did it is being engaged by several Crab clan members. After the oni is dead, he flippantly remarks that the man must have been a great coward to scream like that before dying. The commander matter-of-factely states “No, his orders were that if he saw an oni he was to engage it as best he could and scream until he was no longer able so that his fellow Crab could get their armor and weapons ready. He saved many lives tonight.” Hmmmm, grim.

Just to add a location that hasn’t been mentioned, the Blight and Blasted lands from the Wheel of Time setting are nasty in their own right. Particularly the locations where the myrdrall blades are forged. Each one must be tempered in the body of a living (well...before the process anyways) human to be completed. One more reason not to be captured in the Borderlands. The setting is worth checking out if you are looking for something different. As a bonus the core book is very nicely done (especially the art). Even so, I agree with Ragnarok Raider and must vote for the Shadowlands as the worst place to be a PC. *shudders convulsively*

If you have Nero 7 you can run the get system info option from the extras menu. Go to the hardware tab and it should show you what card you have in the peripherals section. There are other programs out there that can do it (I’m sure) but this one is easy to find and use. If you don’t have Nero you can download the demo and then delete it.

I'd wager in typical games people are also pretty keen on keeping the items of nice mr. dead guy intact so they can steal it.

How about a monk with rusting grasp :)

I haven’t actually played it, but I have read through a good portion of the book and I have to agree with F2K and Sir Kiakillah that the core classes are a little boring. This was brought up in my gaming group and we found that with just a name change things become much more palatable. Playing a Mastermind is a lot more fun than playing a smart hero. The new names we came up with are as follows (to the best of my memory)

Fast Hero: Dare Devil
Strong Hero: Bruiser
Charismatic Hero: Face Man(Woman)
Tough Hero: Brute
Smart Hero: Mastermind
Dedicated Hero: Street Crusader

My opinion is that a good piece of gaming and being a good GM is packaging. If an idea is presented well, a lot of the imperfections can be glossed over and even good ideas can be seem much better.. For instance, one of the Gms in our group managed to scare the player of a 20'th level paladin with a bunch of skeletons. Of course the Paladin could have turned them into bonemeal by flaring his nostrils, but the description was so vivid the player started looking for the quickest way out of there. I’m not saying that this was a bad encounter to begin with, but the way it was presented made it a whole lot more interesting than “hey, there’s uhh *rolls dice* 5 skeletons coming at you, roll initiative I guess”.

These were just some names we came up with that helped the classes feel better for us. It also steps away from the implication that all characters will fall into the heroic template. Not that this is a huge complaint, but I like leaving classes morally ambiguous if possible (gives the GM and players more options to work with). If any of you have any other ideas for names, I would love to hear them.

Congratulations Saern! It was such a good feeling for me to be done with HS. If you are anything like me or most of the people I know you will enjoy many of the aspects of college. Just being able to chose your pace and direction are great. My recommendation is just to make sure you keep up on your reading and studying (sounds like you already do). College is more and more about tests and less about homework and such which makes studying very important. I’ve thought that I could cram for a test many times, and been mistaken almost as many times :)

Congratulations to you to Dryder! There’s little I can tell you since I’m not a parent myself so I will just wish you happiness and good luck.

My condolences Lilith. I’m glad you were able to spread the ashes of your loved ones in such a meaningful place, although such partings are at best bittersweet.

On the note of vomiting children...
Once when I was a little tyke and my mom had me at church I decided to vomit all over the man sitting in front of us. Good thing for my mother he was wearing a nice thick suit as she was able to clean up the mess before he noticed. Or maybe he was just trying to pretend it didn’t happen ;)

I have to say that I really enjoy threads like this one. It just goes to convince me more and more what a bunch of neat and colorful people are here at Paizo.

Well, being a detective by nature and official job title, I stopped by Barnes & Noble on the way home from work. I got some weird looks when I put on my white cotton gloves and pulled out my fingerprint kit. I pulled all three copies of PHII and found no notes penned inside. By the time the manager arrived, I had carefully replaced all three books and was headed out the back door ;)

Lol, that’s hilarious.

I’ve always wanted to do something like that. In me and my friends’ version we wanted to get hazmat suits and geiger counters and walk into the local super market while making concerned comments and putting various food items into sample bags with tongs. The fear of arrest kept us from ever doing it though.

A galil, on the other hand, fires even if feeled with sand and delcious apple juice (and it has 35 bullet clips...) soon both those ARs will be history in the IDF though, with the new Tavor and all...

BTW, how many soldiers are there on these boards?

How is the Tavor? From all I’ve seen it looks pretty good, which isn’t saying much when you consider my abysmal ranks in lore: guns.

We do have a solider who plays occasionally in our group, although he doesn’t post on these boards. He returned from Iraq a few months ago. We were really glad to see him back in one piece. First because he’s a friend (and family to one of our group), and second because he had to leave his wife who was pregnant with their first child at the time. Now, thankfully, he’s back and being a wonderful father to their new born daughter.

If you have access to real weapons and stuff, what is with the swords (this is just a polite enquiry, not a criticicm)?

I can’t give you any insight from personal experience, but I’ll pass on what the afore mentioned solider in our group told me. Although he went to Iraq, a lot of his fellow marines were stationed on air craft carriers. His comment was that if this happens to you, one of two things happens. You get very fit, or very smart, because there is nothing else to do other than run laps around the deck, or read books. Some of the guys he knew brought gaming supplies on board to help alleviate the boredom. As a funny anecdote, one of the guys he knew was cleaning his rifle on deck and dropped the firing pin, which promptly rolled overboard. Staring at his now useless gun, his Sargent (I think) came over and began chewing him out. After which, the next officer up the line came over and chewed him out. This continued for a good while as his COs were so bored that yelling at him seemed like a good way to kill some time.

Edit: Sorry for jacking the thread, just seemed like the other topic was dead.

Huh. It never occurred to me that someone would take my post as a serious one. Apparently, I failed my Innuendo check. That must be why they removed that skill in 3.5.

If it makes you feel better, I thought it was hilarious :-)

In all seriousness though, it is the whole elf superiority thing that I find rankling. Not that I am saying this is a bad thing. Actually I appreciate the fact that the elves have social disadvantages (although no elf would ever see it this way). The fact that elves can only outperform the other races in terms of life span, but still think that they are better than everybody else makes them a more believable part of the setting then if they were the super ultra perfect people. All the races seem to have their own hubris, which gives D&D more depth and color.

Does anyone else view the art style as similar to Venture Bros??

Actually I think that the voice actor for Korgoth and Brock are one in the same. Just a guess as I haven’t checked the credits, but it sure sounds like it. No matter who did it, I think that the art direction is great. It works perfectly for what they are trying to accomplish. The tavern in the start of the episode feels so dirty you want to take a shower just looking at it. Also I love the way they did Korgoth’s face. Proportions as follows:1/2 jaw, 2/6 face 1/6 vestigial brain pan. Plus the guy is so feral he puts wild animals to shame, I love it. Korgoth is the epitome of the chaotic evil barbarian, but then again he is so close to being an actual animal maybe he is chaotic neutral :) I just hope that the rest of the series can keep up with the hilarity of the pilot.

Last year was my worst year ever.

First off, my condolences for your bad year. It sounds like you had a rough one. My Grandmother died of cancer a few years back, so I have at least some idea of the emotional roller coaster that must have put you through. As to your friend dying, that is truly lamentable, I hope 2006 goes better for you. Best wishes Eric, keep on hanging in there.

Sorry it took me so long to write this post, it’s been a busy week. Among several other things I was madly trying to prepare for the next session of Saritiel (posted in campaign journals if you are interested), one of the campaigns me and my group are doing right now. We all have bizarre schedules and since none of us like NPCing absent players’ characters we have (at least :) one game for each different combination of people who could show up. We like variety, so this works well for us.

Thanks for the well written and researched post, you have given me several things to chew on. I never though about using the psionic rules to cover channelers, but right off the bat they just feel better than using spell slots. One of the players in my group has the expanded psionics handbook, so I am going to see if he will let me borrow it for a little bit. From what you have posted I think that a power point system has a much better chance of making channeling feel like the book than the WoT RAW. Elemental affinities seem to transfer very smoothly to such a system. Just reduce or increase spell level for purposes of spell cost depending on the elemental affinities the character possesses. I don’t have Heroes of Horror, but I will go and look it up. It sounds intriguing, especially considering the love of horror in general that my group tends to have. Anything that could make it easier to run dark friends and such would be very welcome as well. I have had the hardest time finding cannon information on how dark friends operate, chose and accomplish goals, structure command, anything. The books only give you a few glimpses into their order. In light of this, colorful ideas like the tainted scholar really help the cause. In case you (or any other GM) is having the same problem, here’s what I have found out thus far. Dark friends operate in cells, much like modern terrorists. As such they tend to be isolated from each other informationaly, thus if one group is discovered the overall damage done is not severe. The fewer leads to other cells the better. Recruiting is fairly simple. Members of the cell always have an ear open for disillusioned members of whatever nation they belong too. Especially those disillusioned with Creator worship. If they catch word of such a person, they keep a close eye on them to assess the candidates for acceptance. Once it is decided that a candidate would make a good member of the cell, an invitation is offered. If the invitation is accepted, world = +1 dark friend, if it is not accepted..... As an interesting side note, dark friends shun atheists like the plague. If there is no Creator, then what is binding the Dark One? And if nothing is binding the Dark One, then why haven’t we been rewarded yet? Moral quandaries just aren’t there cup of tea. If you or anyone else has any additional info it would be appreciated.

You brought up a couple of points which I hadn’t thought about. First being shadow spawn. I think adding shadow spawn as a subtype could work, using a template might work too. “A creature with the shadow spawn template changes their alignment to evil and is now vulnerable to any spell with the shadow spawn descriptor” or something like that. The second was alignment. Thinking about it I have to agree with you that the main ruck and run of WoT are neutral. I totally agree with you that throwing out alignment is a bad idea, as it is a very intrinsic part of the D&D universe. As far as the channeling classes go, I would say that initiates tend toward lawful, and wilders tend toward chaotic, neither with tendencies toward good or evil. Even so, I don’t think either class should have an alignment requirement. With only two channeling classes I think that would be too restrictive.

I also like the idea to regionalize different magical traditions. It gives the chance to add some cultural flavor to things, and if enough teachers are scattered throughout the world you don’t loose diversity of choice for the players. I also like the idea that some traditions have to rely on each other for magic items. This lays the ground work for some interesting inter-tradition politics.

Thank you for the many useful suggestions, you have given me a lot to mull over. Sorry again for taking so long to post this and good luck with running your setting.

The only other person in our party who used heavy armor was the ex-marshal. (ex as in he doesn't have an army anymore) He wore it more for its intimidating presence than anything though.

That was my character, he’s a wizard/marshal. He wore full plate constantly on the battle field. He wore it for several reasons. The first, as mentioned, was for intimidation value. The second is that it let him go to the hottest part of the battle to lead his men and not worry to much about being stabbed. His armor was made out of a magic material (out of the equipment guide) that reduced arcane spell failure by 20. Unfortunately this doubled the weight of the armor. He had to use items to up his strength while he was wearing it. Even though different armor would probably have been better numerically, this guy wearing full plate just made more sense for the character and his personality.

Also we have tried turning AC bonus into damage reduction and it seems to work very well. Magic full plate is very appealing when it lobs 8 off any damage taken. It becomes even more appealing when enchanted. This makes an armor wearer quite the tank. It also makes more sense to us to do things this way. Although I like the idea of adding armor modding since in the age of not having assembly lines, no two suits of armor would be exactly alike.

Being the referred to GM I guess I should throw in my 2 cents. First off, the system does make several modifications to the standard D&D mechanics to make magic feel more like the books present it. You can buff up spells by putting more oomph into them at will. Rules for over channeling and taint are provided as well. The spell list is also very authentic and really feels straight from the books. Having to choose affinities is also a nice touch. My problems with it are that it feels to restrictive. Shackling channelers with spell slots doesn’t feel like the books at all. A decent channeler in WoT can cast moderately powerful spells all day with a little effort. If anything the amount you can channel should be based on stamina or willpower. I’m in doubt over this actually, since frail old women can be potent channelers and channel for long durations. This is evidence in the willpower department. However, strenuous channeling can leave you weak and sweating profusely. Also Caudsuane makes the comment that the fatigue of extreme channeling can eventually kill. This is evidence in the stamina department. Also, there are no rules to cover the freeform casting that happens in WoT. Ability to channel, as stated in the books, relies on knowledge and need. Provisions are made to cover knowledge in the core rules, but not need. So, in my opinion the magic system as written in the WoT core book is gimped. The next question is if this is a bad thing? Personally I like to have the rules feel as much like the fiction as possible, but I have a very responsible group that I would have no problem with if I powered up a class. Not every GM is so blessed, so making a few concessions for game balance makes sense if you think about it. Even though I think the channeling system should be built from scratch I think the rules as written do a good job of making the D&D magic system feel more like the books.

As far as the WoT system and standard D&D magic working together, I think it could work. First off the rules and balance issues. At first glance it appears that channelers have all the advantages over arcane casters. They have the flexibility of the sorcerer (they don’t have to prepare spells) and they can pick up new spells even more easily than a wizard. All you have to do is see the spell being cast and make the appropriate skill check and bingo, new spell. The disadvantage being that you can’t learn from a scroll, only a teacher. This however is only a minor nuisance for the ability to take the spell that the BBEG just used on your party and throw it back at him next turn. Be warned however, as this can go both ways. Also channelers don’t have to use a spell book or spell components. Not only do they never have to worry about their spell book being destroyed or not having the right components, but no one will know that they are a channeler if they want their abilities kept a secret. Adding on this the fact that channeling does not involve physical components it is very hard to stop a channeler from channeling with mundane means. You can literally strip a channeler and chain him to a wall upside down while cramming an old sock in his mouth and he will be able to sling spells at you with no problem. This can be very unexpected too because there is a good chance you didn’t know he was a spell caster at all.

As I said, this all looks like an overwhelming advantage for channelers over their arcane brethren, so lets look at their disadvantages for a minute. Small stuff first, channelers can only channel where they can see. Darkness won’t stop them because they can see the threads that compose their spells even in pitch black. A blindfold will do the trick however. The first huge disadvantage channelers have (with raw) is with their spell slots. A channeler who wishes to bump up the damage their fireball deals can cast it at a higher level, consuming a higher level spell slot. Blamo, more damage. An arcane caster doesn’t have to. His spells go up in damage as he levels and becomes a better caster. At high levels an arcane caster’s fireball does apocalyptic damage using the same level spell slot it always has, the channeler has to use a much higher level spell slot for the same effect. If he wishes the arcane caster can use a higher level spell slot for metamagic effects because damage is already taken care of. Admittedly you could argue that the channeler already has a few metamagic abilities included in the package (still spell, silent spell), but I have to say that advantage here goes to the arcane caster. Lower level arcane slots get better over time while the channelers spell slots do not. The second big disadvantage comes in if you restrict a channeler to the spell list out of WoT. Some of the spells out of WoT are impressive, but there are many effects the arcane caster takes for granted which channelers can only dreams about. For example, there are no channeler spells that can emulate polymorph, undead control, soul binding, size changing or a host of other abilities. Also resurrection is a big no no. Other abilities that come easily to an arcane caster are considered “lost weaves” in WoT. This means that although the spell exists, it is not accessible to most PCs. Even high level characters will have difficulty acquiring these spells. Effects that fall into this category include flight, mind control, teleportation (which even if you know in WoT can still be a hassle) and several of the high powered combat spells (Bale Fire comes to mind. Think beam of insta-death, no save, no resurrection which burns you back through time, undoing recent actions. Thank goodness it’s a lost weave). Even though channelers do have some very powerful spells at their disposal versatility is a big advantage for arcane casters. Another disadvantage is that channelers receive no item creation feats. While magic items are available in setting, the knowledge of how to create them has been lost for millennia and is only now on the cusp of being rediscovered. In summery I think that channelers have some strong advantages, but have enough disadvantages to balance them out with arcane spell casters.

The second concern with integrating the two systems is with setting continuity. The metaphysics behind channeling are wholly unique to the WoT setting and would need some tlc to fit into any of the D&D cosmologies. Also channeling introduces some completely new planes that would need to be fit in, or the spells regarding them discarded. The world of dreams wouldn’t be too hard to mesh in as it seems to be coterminous with the prime material plane and you could say that skimming takes you through the shadow plane. Where channelers draw their power from would also need to be addressed, as well as whether or not male channelers are subject to taint. Maybe channelers draw their power straight from the elemental plains, which would explain the four elemental affinities. Spirit could be drawn from the prime material plane seeing as spirit deals very much with humanity. If you wanted to port over taint as well you could have male channelers be cursed by some demon or evil god (to keep things close to the books). Or you could have women draw their power from the elemental planes and prime material plane through the positive energy plane and men though the negative energy plane. This would explain the different sensations felt by male and female channelers as well as give a good explanation for madness (constant exposure to power tainted by negative energy drives men mad). The next concern that comes to mind has to do with magic items. Magic items in general weaken the relative position of channelers compared to mundanes. In WoT angreal and sa’angreal(magic boosters and BIG magic boosters respectively) can only be used by channelers and about 75% of ter’angreal (think wonderous items) must have raw magic channeled into them to work. The 25% that don’t tend to be the weaker ones. In the magic weapons department +3 swords with no enchantments are the most powerful thing currently available. Being put in a setting where anyone might have a wand of “insert deadly spell” or be decked out with magic plate armor evens out the playing field quite a bit. If you decided to port in WoT magic items you could treat them like psionic restricted items, but just for channelers. You would have to decide if you wanted to treat ter’angreal in the same manner or let arcane casters use them as well. Also you would have to decide if you wanted to retain the no item creation ban or not.

Wow, that was long winded. A bit more than two cents worth I'm afraid. If you are still reading this post I salute you. You must have taken the great fortitude feat at some point in your life. Anyways, it’s been therapeutic to get this all off my chest. This has actually interested me in trying to mix the two systems in a home brew at some time or another (after our group finishes all the other home brews we want to do :). Well, I hope these rambling suggestions help you Eric if you ever do decide to throw the two systems together.

"Give me every d6 in the room."

Mwah hah hah!

Lol, once at a gencon some company ran a one shot(can’t remember for the life of me which company it was) and came up with a spell for it that caused damage equal to the roll of all dice within a ten foot radius. Just happened to be that they set up next to the chessex booth. They were going to let the poor guy they cast in on off the hook, but the cheesex people thought it was funny and insisted on rolling ALL the dice they had within ten feet of the gaming table KABOOOOM. Great fun.

Btw, for anyone interested you should check out Guardians of Order’s tri-stat system if you want an alternate dice system. I don’t know much about as I have never played with it, but to my understanding it uses all the dice on a regular basis. Base die is determined by your characters power level. D4=scoob D20=god like power. If I got anything wrong please correct me.

Well, I’m done for the semester. Not many responses to this thread, so just wondering how many of you are out of school already. If so, what are you doing now? Although I would hate to think that I’m the only one here on Paizo to wet behind the ears to have gotten my degree yet ;)

a little detail I like to call ROLEPLAY! When you stop trowing dice and start doing the best part of this game, you see what is the real fun!

I’m in your camp on this one. The most fun I

I think your going in the right direction Elora, I love the idea of a battle chanter. Keep on getting into character and you should have lots of fun with D&D. I hope your idea works out for ya.

There was another recent thread you might want to check out called Behold the evil....bard! that had a some ideas in it for non-floppy hat guitar playing bards that might help you out.

On a historic note, my great grand father fought in WWI. One of the stories he told was about fighting alongside the Scotts. He said that the Scotts were the fiercest fighters that he ever was in battle with. They would fight in their kilts which got them the nickname the “ladies from hell”. Never to their faces however. My great grand father and his friends were just glad that they were on their side. In the dawn before the battle the Scotts would pull out their bagpipes and play while fog still covered the ground. The enemy couldn’t see them, but they sure could hear the music and it terrified them. Half because hearing that music coming out of the mist was frightening in its own right and half because they knew the Scotts were coming for them. Just a real world example of how music can affect a battle.

I played a Dirge Singer once. Actually he was a dirge singer/master of the shroud, both out of Libris Mortis. To give a little background I was invited into a friends ongoing campaign. The character I had to integrate with was a psychopath. He was an intelligent construct determined to finish of the last of his race. As I wanted integration to be a little more smooth than a quick chat leading up to rolling initiative I created a character who was interested in a person who would wish such a fate for himself. To make a long story short, my character was convinced sorrow was the only path to wisdom in life. Joy is a mask and a drug people used to cover up what was really happening around them. Only by accepting sorrow can one understand life. Much like a loviten (sp?) but dedicated to sorrow instead of pain. His outlook in life eventually lead him to a god he could identify with which is where he got his cleric/master of the shroud levels. He particularly enjoyed summoning the ghosts of the deceased (some of whom he had made that way himself) so that he could feel their last thoughts and revel in their regrets. He would take this newfound grief to compose more dirges to spread the truth of sorrow. He enjoyed bitter irony more than straight forward suffering. If he could have read Othelo he would have dug it. Thus he was drawn to this being who would wish upon himself the loneliness and horror of being the last of his kind, and even more impressive was willing to take the necessary steps to make it happen. He thought following this construct might allow him to learn more about the driving force of sorrow. At the least it would give him some material to write a truly horrible dirge. My character spent his free time spreading sorrow with his music in taverns, on the street, or wherever he could get away with it really. His weapon of choice for this was a magic lyre that created the effects of a defile spell around it whenever it was played. Man, he was creepy to play *shivers*.

There are a few problems with playing a character as openly evil as this though. One of which is that you HAVE NO FRIENDS. Lawful good people want to bring you to justice, chaotic good people will kill you because of what you stand for, neutrals will try to do the same because they fear you and want you off the streets. Lawful evil people think your bad for business and chaotic evil people are hard to trust anyways. Just my opinion as to why psychos don’t live to long. The con artist has a much longer life expectancy. Nice job on the back story, btw. I liked the explanation as to why he turned away from his former life. Evil is very seductive, just ask Anakin Skywalker :) Also, your idea has a good chance of getting along in a group without getting killed within minutes. Saern is right on about evil/dumb characters. In many instances evil and good characters can travel together in relative peace. Samurai Champloo is a good example. You have chaotic evil Mugen, lawful neutral Jin, and chaotic good Fuu all traveling together, although their relationship does have occasional bumps :)

On a lighter note I once played an almost evil bard. His name was Tebel. Tebel had been a bard for years, vaunting the deeds of others to the world. With each passing story this rankled him more and more. It came to the point that he decided to prove that he was just as good as the heroes in the stories that he had told for such a long time. To this end he used the money he had saved up to buy a huge axe (far bigger than he could swing effectively) and chain armor and make his way into the world. Tebel became a bit of a historical revisionist, dedicating himself to airing out all the dirty laundry of heroes just to prove that they were no more than ordinary men. He was a bitter cynic to put things mildly. Indeed, Tebel was far from loveable. He also had abysmal stats, but was always the first to charge so that he could prove that he was just as good as everybody else. Lol, I am amazed he actually lived through the first session, however his will continue to get him into fights he has no right to survive on an alarmingly regular basis. To his credit he is completely fearless. Loads of fun to play him. Well, if you are still reading this I will apologize for a long and windy post. Good luck with your character, hope this helps.

I happened to be the other skeptic who was invited to play in that campaign. Like Sel, I had been gamming for over a decade, but had little experience in 3rd edition. My first D&D character being in 2nd edition. My character for this campaign was a wizard/marshal btw. . Unfortunately my sole exposure to 3rd edition so far was from a group of particularly bad role players at the local gaming store. After pandering the game to me in the worst light possible I had been poisoned towards it. Anyway, during the pre game banter we told our woes to the GM. He being a bit aghast at our opinions offered to run a proper campaign for us to give us a better idea about what the settings were about. The gauntlet having been thrown down we lobbed the book at him. Sel is not exaggerating Thorin’s damage potential either. He dealt 712 damage once in a single hit. We figured that he had made a mistake in there somehow, but he showed us how he built the character and it was ALL cannon RAW. It must be said however that Sel isn’t a munchkin, but he can crunch numbers when he wants to. In this case we were giving the GM a worst case scenario to deal with so that we could put D20 through its paces. I have to give the game the same verdict that Sel did. I was surprised at the depth of the world Forgotten Realms had to offer. The GM did a stellar job presenting the material. I can’t agree with you more F2K, A bad GM can crush the best of settings. I am happy to say that this was the case here as I have now been introduced to some really great stuff that I would have probably passed over if I hadn’t been shown the light. All of us, GM included still have our arguments with the rules, although we are close to working out a system that works for our style of play. What converted us was the love and detail that the D&D settings have been imbued with. Personally I look forward to many more journeys through the Realms.

So you came to this conclusion after several game sessions with a 20th level character? Perhaps you should collect a few more data points for study...

ACE

You bring up a good couple of points ACE, and so I will set the record straight were it may have been unclear. This campaign has been going on for over six months now, the end of which may be looming in sight (I hope in a good way, I don’t want to be responsible for shafting Faerun :)) Interspersed, however we have played several shorter campaigns in other published settings, Dark Sun included, at a variety of power levels. All of which I have found to be very enjoyable.

I have to agree with the notion that prestige classes are a good springboard for role playing and defining a character. Just a few sessions ago a wizard character of mine wrote his first spell. To mark the occasion he acquired (by total chance he leveled up that session too) his first level of arch mage. In my group we take the slant that a wizard memorizes the spells of others while an arch mage works to create his own. I must admit there was something satisfying about my character gaining this distinction. I guess what I am trying to say here is that a prestige class can add a lot to a character and help make him more unique. Wow, that was kind of rambling. Although I can’t speak for quality, I did a search recently online for a list of prestige classes. I wound up finding an index which listed where you could find any of the WotC published books. Wound up there were over SIX HUNDRED listed. With that many choices, there should be something to make even the most picky gamer happy ;)

Are domain lords powerful enough to grant spells? If this were the case you could have clerics separated from the gods of their world and only able to recieve power if they follow that which crushes the hopes of the populace. Alternatively, they could be clerics of ideals. I'm not very keen on the idea of religions turning out to be the machinations of evil beings, seems a bit over done. Separating the good their gods is a good way to go though I think. How terrifying can a world be if you have a god looking out for you? Also why couldn't gods just take their followers away from such a place if they were able to contact it anyways? A pact seems like a cop out. Good gods don't tend to pact with evil ones. Just a quick couple of thoughts because I don't know much about the settin, fill me in if I have gone way off base. Hope this helps.

We were just talking about something like this in my gaming group. We were only joking around, but it might work for you. The idea was to take a mage who had the eschew material components feat, still spell, or something similar. When he casts his spell, he pulls out components and makes gestures that have nothing to do with the spell he casts. “Oh, don’t worry it’s just a detect any object spell”....WHOMPH. Lol, lots of fun. This should work the other way around, cast illusion spells, but use components/gestures for fireball, scorching ray, meteors, whatever. Hope this helps.

Yarg, finals here at ISU start Monday (may 8th). Just wanted to wish good luck to all of you going through this time honored tradition of bleary-eyed all night study sessions.
The one I dread most this year is for animal physiology btw, how about you guys?

I think you have a reasonable concern snorter, that is probably why this discussion continues to crop up on a regular basis. My problem with the advancement rate has to more with keeping the world feeling cohesive, rather than reserving high levels to those that dedicate many years to a character. In my gaming group we have played games at all ends of the power spectrum, from a resident evil campaign where we all played schmoes of the street (my character was a bum :)), to epic level earth shaking games where the fate of the world was in our hands. It all depends on the kind of story we feel like telling at the moment. We have only had a couple of games in which we went from schmoes to powerful characters however, and those were long term games.

Anyway, with the XP system I plan on adopting, it's based on actual life experiences, having really gone through something that gave you a new look on the world, opened your mind, etc.

I like where your system is going for several reasons. First, it solves a dilemma I have had with the D&D world. Problem being that if PCs/NPCs (I believe that NPCs and PCs should be held to the same rules in most all cases) level up every adventure of so why isn’t the world littered with epic level characters? Using standard 3.5 rules a group of characters could get 10 levels per year of game time with plenty of R&R to boot. Slowing things down makes the world much more believable, which I think is very important. Second, I don’t like the idea of non-front line classes, like the bard, being penalized because they don’t get into fights as much as a barbarian. Or penalizing rogues because they do what their class does best, avoiding trouble instead of looking for it. “Wait up guys, I have to go brain that ogre with a rock so he will attack me and I can kill him or else I will never get better at sneaking around”. Also, keeping things simple with XP given out per story completed takes care of a lot of excess book work that just tends to slow things down and take time away from the story.

If the spell however simply prevents the brain from sending contraction signals then the heart would continue to beat on its own, thus rendering the target of the spell helpless, but not dead. Therefore I belive it is most likely that the spell would cause the target to go ragdoll and flop to the ground like a sack of potatoes. (this is ofcouse assuming that the spell effects all muscle controling areas of the brain, not just those that control concious movement.)

Good thoughts on an interesting topic. The only thing I would add to Sel Carim’s good post is that the diaphragm is neurogenic, meaning that it does require stimulation from the brain to contract. If you had no ability to contract whatsoever, then you couldn’t breath. I think if the spell is mentally affecting it could target only the conscious centers of the brain and not the brain stem, thus removing the ability of the victim to control skeletal muscle, but not impairing the body’s regulatory functions. This would render the target immobile but not dead, and it would certainly preclude a spell caster from using any somatic, verbal, or physical components. Tough to grab anything out of your belt pouch when you can’t move your arm. Another possibility is that the spell functions like the Harden Air weave out of the Wheel of Time core book. Harden Air, as the name implies thickens the air around the limbs and trunk of the target, preventing them from moving. Casters must be careful however, to allow the recipient of the spell enough room to breath, or not depending on your disposition >:)

Nicely done! When do you take the second half?

Personally I have to say I like playing wizards, this is probably a bias because one of my favorite characters is a wizard. Tactically I can see the advantage of being able to cast spells on the fly and this can come in very handy in any number of situations. I for one though hate giving up the versatility of being able to store tons of spells in my spell book. This can be a great boon for parties that think ahead. For instance, if you know that you will need a spell for an upcoming task you can shell out the gold and buy it instead of having to wait for the sorcerer to level so that he can learn the spell. This also means you will only have to pay for the spell once instead of every time you need it. More importantly I am glad that D&D gives the choice of playing more than just one vein of magic user. The bookish wizard is all well and good, but I like having the option of playing the charismatic bard, the enigmatic sorcerer, etc. Having these options adds flavor to the D&D universe.

I have to agree with the comments about ethnicity adding flavor to a setting. Variety is a good thing in almost all cases. A reasonable selection of races, like classes or religion can give springboards for characterization. For example, my character is of ethnicity X which have practices and beliefs Y. Does my character follow the party line? Does he disagree with his fellows? Is this disagreement what has caused him to leave his nation to adventure? Perhaps the character must pass a test before he can be considered an adult member of his people or before he can legally receive an inheritance? This kind of character detail can also provide the GM with plenty of plot hooks. (The more help we can get the better:) Also even subtle differences between groups of the same species makes the seem more believable. Many interesting possibilities to be had here. If anyone is interested the Wheel of Time setting, based off of a series of books by the same name written by Robert Jordan, describes a wealth of unique fantasy ethnicities. Lots of source material for those trying to add such things to their campaigns.

I spent 2 years in Brazil, so I have a passport and visa. Other then that I have only been to Canada. Let me say though, Brazil is a beutiful country. It is the size of the continental US and has about half the population. Plenty of open space if that is your thing. I would like to go back with less to do so I could do some more sight seeing. Especially I would like to go up north as before I spent my time in San Palo and Parana, and can you believe it was night both times I flew over the Amazons, oh well.

P.S. The people ARE as nice as stories say they are

My favorite spell of all time has to be Sympathy. More fun can be had with this spell then a barrel of monkeys and a scroll of Polymorph. Its uses are limitless! Need food? Cast Sympathy fish on a worm and put that on your hook. Group of bandits keeping you from crossing a bridge? Cast Sympathy on a rock and throw it down the gorge. Too much riff raff in your favorite bar? Cast Sympathy and Delayed Blast Fireball on a mug and throw it out the door. Bunch of snotty elves getting on your nerves? Easy, cast Sympathy on a wagon load of suet, come back a week later and enjoy watching 300 pound lardy elves fighting tooth and nail over the last scraps. “Oooo, I’m so fat, I’ll never again frolic in the dandelions, but it’s sooo good....hey you stop hogging it all!”
Seriously through, it is a very useful spell. A wizard/marshal character of mine (Rhondel) used Sympathy on some large scale traps and Move Earth (so true EP) to funnel an army of orcs towards them. Rhondel had what bowmen he had available hidden on the newly formed slopes to pepper the orcs as they were mired in the traps. This softened up the orcs a bit before they hit the front ranks.
Another favorite of mine is Iron Body. It’s pulled me out of some tight spots. Same character of mine befriended a phazem durring the campaign (I thought it was just a treshim for quite some time) that had been watching him for years. The phazem (Avondeli) knew Rhondel’s kids almost better then he did. Anyway, the two of them were stuck fighting some levietens and the phazem shape shifted into a manticore. Even manticores can be boged down by numbers however. We and the rest of the party were taking heavy fire and Avondeli was about to be taken down by the surrounding enemies. Ended up taking a round and casting iron body. Now the levietens weren’t fighting an ordinary manticore, they were fighting an IRON manticore. Needless to say, this turned the tide of battle.

Wow- sounds like an “epic” case of NPC showboating, (nods knowingly ;) I have seen several new GMs make this mistake. They make a game and forget that their job is to help tell the player’s story, not their own. When the purpose of the party is reduced to being witnesses to the glory of “insert name of cheesy NPC” you have a problem. As far as the cause of this you may have hit the nail on the head Jonathon. What helps me as a GM is to remember that all NPCs in my worlds, regardless of power level, are just there for the characters to befriend, ignore, or make enemies of as they see fit. Also, any rules that apply to the players apply to the NPCs, monsters, whatever. If I don’t give my players any breaks, then my NPCs don’t get any either.
I’ve never been impressed with super-NPCs. It doesn’t take any thought, sacrifice, or effort to grab a character sheet, give attributes of 1000 apiece and copy/paste the equipment section of the PHB to the back of it. Presto, the world has one more combat monster with stats higher then the gods most clerics worship and all the flavor of cardboard. The NPCs that have always impressed me are the ones with breadth and depth of personality. Sorry for the rant, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. I really feel for ya talon.
I think it was hilarious that you tried to gut epic-boy in his sleep, too bad it didn’t work. Reminds me of a story from one of my gaming friends. It was a slightly futuristic setting where tanks had been replaced by power armor suits similar to arm suits out of Ghost in the Shell. The player group were to be a small unit of suit pilots. Anyway, my friend decided to play a guy of Greek decent and take a suit decked out with missiles, rockets, and other artillery as opposed to the mostly close range suits of the rest of the party. In this particular army, members of a platoon were given card designations depending on their roll. The GM tried to talk my friend out of this character because long range combatants are all “gay” and therefor given the queen designation and everyone calls them queeny or such. My friend decided to play this character anyway and became one of the most beloved and colorful characters of the group.
Enter uber-man, the unit leader, who was better and cooler then anyone in the party could ever be. Over the course of their adventures they ended up in city that had seen heavy urban fighting. While on assignment they were approached by a large imposing power suit. Uber-man takes attack position. When the players take up position to assist, he states solemnly, “back off men, you can’t help me here”. He then unleashes a huge (purple I think) blast from his power suit’s machine gun which destroys a whole city block, all this in a setting with rockets being considered fairly powerful. Uber-man and the imposing power suit then engage in a battle more reminiscent of Dragon Ball Z then slightly futuristic earth. My friend, having had enough of sitting around jumps his suit right in front of the enemy and unloads every weapon he has in its face. Missed the things AC unfortunately, and was cored like an apple the following round, but I applaud him for trying. Anyways, sorry to here about your trouble, good luck finding some better games.