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Ok, so I admit I'm new to DnD and roleplaying...but I don't understand why bards are so looked down upon. I really enjoy playing a bard -- my character is very flexible, and I've saved my group's collective arse on more than one occasion since we started playing 5 months ago. My bard can pick up a nice bag of gold pretty much every night we spend in a town by performing, she's great at finding out important pieces of information and persuading people to talk before killing, etc...and in the field she can hold her own fairly well and has been among the last standing on several occasions (and not because she was hiding in the back). Best of all, she's great at "filling in the blanks" in the group, eg-- the group isn't screwed when the cleric goes down and there's still 2 dire wolves left and your fighter keeps getting his feet knocked out from under him.
So, I've been thinking about why the class is dimissed so quickly by most people, and I think it's at least partly due to the conception of a bard as a "jester/funny guy". (I know the stats are a bit weaker than for other classes as well, but I think that the flexibility, mixed with some cleverness, more than makes up for that). I can see why one would tire quickly of being the "hero" that can juggle. But that's not how I see a bard -- my conception of a bard is more along the lines of Taliesin or Merlin from Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle. Specifically, I fashioned some of my bard's aspects after Llew Silverhand from Lawhead's Song of Albion trilogy -- like Llew, she favors a longsword and a spear. Or, for a series you all may be more familiar with, think of a bard as someone who has a "wishsong of Shannara" ability. Basically, my bard is not an entertainer...she is a storyteller, "moving" souls and shaping events using her innate understanding of the power of song and music.
If you would like to have a bard included as a PC in your campaign, or if you are thinking about playing one, I would encourage you to read some of the books mentioned above or suggest them to your players.
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Ok, so I admit I'm new to DnD and roleplaying...but I don't understand why bards are so looked down upon.
Well, kiddo, I've been playing D&D for a long time now, but I've never played a bard. Some folks, of course, argue that the 2E bard sucked ass. I guess that really depends on you're point of view. As for 3.5E, I've only been actively playing it for a while, so I haven't yet formed a decent opinion on any of the character classes. However, none of that means I won't offer my opinion as to your comment.
Basically, I think bards are looked down on because most people don't like the classes middle-of-the-road aspect, a sort of "jack of all trades, master of none". They are decent at combat, but not as good as a fighter or ranger. They can use magic, but not to the extent or with the power of a wizard or sorcerer. And they can be pretty sneaky and such, but not as good as a rogue. So a bard is, in essence, a great fill-in-the-gap class, serving as back-up to any of the aforementioned classes. Most people probably want something a little more focused.
Anyway, that is my theory on the whole thing. If anyone else wishes to argue a different point, be my guest. Incidently Elora, welcome to the game. Me, I've been at it, of an on, for the last 15 or 16 years. I've always loved the game, and suspect I always will.
And that's just a little bit from your Uncle Zombie.
Hey! Can´t agree more with you. I used to like the bard class back in ad&d... it was pretty weak (crap, really!) in the 3rd, but it´s nice now, in 3.5!
I think the biggest turn off of the bard for most people is that he doesn´t have much personal power. But he is very good at helping others do their job. You know, when everybody is doing tons of damage and exploding dozens of guys, it´s hard for most people to be just there assisting. But his help is necessary, altough very few people don´t notice it (or don´t want to). A party with one bard singing (or whatever) at the back is much more powerfull.
But the bard is the best in one thing... a little detail I like to call ROLEPLAY! When you stop trowing dice and start doing the best part of this game, you see what is the real fun!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The 2e bard was a great class for solo play, but as has been mentioned, in a team, (s)he's the fith person picked.
The other reason bards get grief is that they run against the grain of a certain gritty style of play. It ruins the mood to imagine your tough as nails barbarian warrior exploring secret caverns and fighting inhuman monsters while some idiot plays the guitar behind you and sings songs that make you fight better.
I like bards, I think they come the closest to capturing what I would want to be like as an adventurer.
I've put this on a number of other threads - but bards are big part of folklore, Culchulainn, Vaimamoinen, Finn and Fionans, any of the Greek heroes that studied under Chiron, could all be said to have levels as bards.
There are a lot of gamers (in spite of what they say) who have to be "the best" in the party - a bard won't be. But a bard can fight, buff, heal, and cast - as an exercise at the end of a combat see how many total incremental hit points were infliced because of inspire courage (including hits that would of otherwise missed). Though it is not necessarily his blade - the bard does a lot of damage.
With regard to roleplay - I think all classes/races present opportunities for character development - but a bard sort of requires it - most playters play fighters and barbarians who are hulking toughs, or wizards who are dark and mysterious
(or at least try to be) - thats what the players (for all their claims of great imaginations and detailed character concepts) bring to the table - lame but true. I am not saying that there aren't great roleplayers out there, just that most aren't, they can still be great fun to play with, well anyway getting off topic. IMO bards (more than many classes) push the player to develop a personality for the character.
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"It ruins the mood to imagine your tough as nails barbarian warrior exploring secret caverns and fighting inhuman monsters while some idiot plays the guitar behind you and sings songs that make you fight better."
That's exactly what I was talking about...what kind of idiot bard would play a guitar walking through secret caverns? Talk about seriously bad roleplaying, especially if the bard is traveling with a barbarian! If my bard were in that scenario, we'd be talking a war drum and chanting (maybe even some wild dancing to distract and place fear in the heart of the foes), not folk music and a guitar. On the other hand, if I (ha! caught myself -- my bard) was going through caverns full of creepy monsters with a group of scared young warriors, a Celtic song of courage to lift their hearts would be in order (and that way I could keep my hands free to hold a weapon as well!).
a little detail I like to call ROLEPLAY! When you stop trowing dice and start doing the best part of this game, you see what is the real fun!
I’m in your camp on this one. The most fun I
have with a character is when he becomes a fleshed out personality. Bards do have a great potential for this. It’s always fun to figure out what a particular characters take on his own class is. Some less than traditional ideas that I’ve had have been really fun to play.I think your going in the right direction Elora, I love the idea of a battle chanter. Keep on getting into character and you should have lots of fun with D&D. I hope your idea works out for ya.
There was another recent thread you might want to check out called Behold the evil....bard! that had a some ideas in it for non-floppy hat guitar playing bards that might help you out.
On a historic note, my great grand father fought in WWI. One of the stories he told was about fighting alongside the Scotts. He said that the Scotts were the fiercest fighters that he ever was in battle with. They would fight in their kilts which got them the nickname the “ladies from hell”. Never to their faces however. My great grand father and his friends were just glad that they were on their side. In the dawn before the battle the Scotts would pull out their bagpipes and play while fog still covered the ground. The enemy couldn’t see them, but they sure could hear the music and it terrified them. Half because hearing that music coming out of the mist was frightening in its own right and half because they knew the Scotts were coming for them. Just a real world example of how music can affect a battle.
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But the bard is the best in one thing... a little detail I like to call ROLEPLAY! When you stop trowing dice and start doing the best part of this game, you see what is the real fun!
Holy S!!$! A fellow brain eater. Say it with me now, "mmm...brains." Now we can begin the process of slowly converting all the other members of the message board to the same undead status. Night of the Living Blog Threads. ha ha ha ha ha.
Incidently, I'd clarify the statement on roleplaying. Even a wizard can be roleplayed (like when researching a spell). Where the bard truly shines is in non-combat oriented interaction with NPCs. Festivals, feasts, noble galas , visits to court, time in the local tavern, all give primo opportunities for the bard to strut his stuff.
There was another recent thread you might want to check out called Behold the evil....bard! that had a some ideas in it for non-floppy hat guitar playing bards that might help you out.
Hehehehe....
Yes you should check that out. And i'm not just saying that because I made it. But after I read all of the responses I really came to a better understanding of a bard, more along the lines of an evil one but none the less. If I could recommend anything to help you out with bard trouble, you should look at that.
Well as for why they are looked down on...
As was mentioned before, who wants a pansy-playing folklore person that isn't all that good at fighting, just decent?
And again, as was said before Bards are often not what a party is looking for, more focus.
I believe the main reason is because...well, bards aren't the tough guys, aren't the magic ones, yet they are roleplaying and I sware that there are more than one munchkin-like power players that hate roleplaying in my group. Bards are for the ones that appreciate roleplaying and an occasional skirmish between a few weak enemys. But it's all in your head, so all in all I am happy my new character is gonna be an evil bard. Never tried a bard though, but my DM has. Looking forward to it.
~Love The Flabulator
If anyone were to go to Rich Burlew's site and read his article on how Diplomacy in 3.5 is horribly broken, you would then understand why bards kick more ass than anybody according to the NPC influence tables. Broken down it essentially says that a 5th level bard with max ranks in diplomacy, 5 ranks in the 3 skills that give a synergy bonus to diplomacy (all of which are class skills for bards), and a 16 charisma only has to roll an 8 or better to make any NPC with an intelligence better than 3, from the 1st level rogue to the CR 29 BBEG not interested in fighting.
I honestly think you have it wrong. It seems like the bard is quite popular, actually.
And Im not trying to be negative here but any class has the same opportunities for roleplaying.
It's all Elans fault!!!!!
Seize him!
Basically, I think bards are looked down on because most people don't like the classes middle-of-the-road aspect, a sort of "jack of all trades, master of none".
I just don't like the stupid flute. "oh no Orcs are attacking - quick were did I put my harp I have to play music".
...and no it does not help if you chant war anthems instead...that just leaves me with the image of a guy standing behind the axe wielding Barbarian singing for all he's worth 'and another bites the dust! And another ones gone...' while doing Micheal Jackson dance moves. Meanwhile the party rogue is trying to hold her entrails in while the cleric races over to save her life and the mage throws flames from his hands at the oncoming orcish warriors.
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Wow! What a mix of encouragement and derision regarding bards! :-) But thanks, everyone, for your input.
I guess it just comes down to what each of us pictures as a hero, and some people will never see that a bard can be heroic and powerful, and not a random guy playing a lute. That's fine...to each our own, as long as we play our chosen role with passion.
Wow and to think in real life I listen to music almost constantly. The world is much more interesting with theme music. One of our groups fav things to do is have music. Mostly ambient but I'll sneak in a Final Fantasy Boss song or something silly like that. Basically what I'm getting at is if our world is better with Theme music why can't it be the same in your D&D world.
...and no it does not help if you chant war anthems instead...that just leaves me with the image of a guy standing behind the axe wielding Barbarian singing for all he's worth 'and another bites the dust! And another ones gone...' while doing Micheal Jackson dance moves. Meanwhile the party rogue is trying to hold her entrails in while the cleric races over to save her life and the mage throws flames from his hands at the oncoming orcish warriors.
Michael Jackson dancing to "Another One Bites the Dust"? Where did this come from? What kind of games have you been in friend? Wow!
I guess the biggest contribution I can make is to see bards (well or anyone else really) outside of the video game, cheeseball dungeon-crawly cookie cutter. So the rogue is bleeding out, the bard not being an idiot shoulders his musical instrument and helps patch together his friend, keeping him conscious and talking while the cleric plies her trade. Characters should be people, not game mechanic generating machines. If any bard o' mine was in a passageway filled with orcs he might use his magical songs to rally the troops as the orcs are hacking their way into the barracaded room, plucking out a quick song to raise their spirits and steel them for battle--but as soon as the first orc came crashing in he would grab up his shortsword and rush into the breech.
Another point I think worth noting--really any class can be as good or crappy at fighting as any other, particularly at low levels. At most the classes are separated by a difference of two BAB one way or the other. Not a huge difference really, especially if one allocates Strength as a high priority. I can't say it enough. Character's aren't cookie cutters. If your bard is a combat "lady from hell" then give 'im a claymore and a kilt and slap the ol' 18 in Strength and believe you me he will be someone to fear if you make him be.
Any race or class is as crappy as the prejudice of the player involved. Nuff said.
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Grimcleaver -- Ditto to everything you said. I can't stand most of the pictures and portrayals I've seen of bards; why are they always skipping aroud with a goofy smile?! Fortunately, I just ignore all of the class background on bards in the PHB and make my bard who I think she should be. She usually only uses her music to uphold the group at the beginning of a battle or when she is too wounded to fight effectively. The rest of the time, she's diving into the battle wherever she is needed most.
Wow and to think in real life I listen to music almost constantly. The world is much more interesting with theme music. One of our groups fav things to do is have music. Mostly ambient but I'll sneak in a Final Fantasy Boss song or something silly like that. Basically what I'm getting at is if our world is better with Theme music why can't it be the same in your D&D world.
Hey we do the exact same thing. And almost always with final fantasy bosses. But today when we fought boss we listened to kingdom hearts boss music. I generally think it's alright for a while, but it gets rather annoying rather quickly. But our souped up hyper ranger would rather have it than not, and he will put up an argue that doesn't make sense, but more often than not you will just stop making him yell about it and zip up. Ahh well. Oh and yeah I love making fake songs, and stupid theme music....no i'm not crazy. But now that I think about it I wanna be a singer, American Idol here I come. Just don't expect me to win...
~Love The Flab!?!
imagine your tough as nails barbarian warrior exploring secret caverns and fighting inhuman monsters while some idiot plays the guitar behind you and sings songs that make you fight better.
Thats why all good Bard's should become clerics of Banjo.
Remember Banjo loves you.
Haste, and inspire courage, and open up your first full attack with an arcane strike with dual shortswords. And when the entire party is supercharged and your dropping baddies with the best of them I doubt there will be any denying your usefulness.
In my campaign "Gary the Liberator" the bard leads around a quiet trident weilding greek style warrior names Serwacy.
So far Gary's highlights include supercharging Serwacy into an unstoppable monster every combat. Domnating huminoids left and right. Pulling out his whip to disarm or trip. And one particularily intresting moment where he picked up a discarded shield and assumed total defense when the party was surounded by earth elementals. He then began taunting them in terran to draw their fire away from the brutally wounded party.
He also wrapped his whip around a trailing rope that was attatched to a speeding flying carpet. He was drug across the desert for several rounds climbing up the rope before the enemy archer on the carpet shot him off.
And outside of combat he is a loudmouthed goof
Haste, and inspire courage, and open up your first full attack with an arcane strike with dual shortswords. And when the entire party is supercharged and your dropping baddies with the best of them I doubt there will be any denying your usefulness.
In my campaign "Gary the Liberator" the bard leads around a quiet trident weilding greek style warrior names Serwacy.
So far Gary's highlights include supercharging Serwacy into an unstoppable monster every combat. Domnating huminoids left and right. Pulling out his whip to disarm or trip. And one particularily intresting moment where he picked up a discarded shield and assumed total defense when the party was surounded by earth elementals. He then began taunting them in terran to draw their fire away from the brutally wounded party.
He also wrapped his whip around a trailing rope that was attatched to a speeding flying carpet. He was drug across the desert for several rounds climbing up the rope before the enemy archer on the carpet shot him off.And outside of combat he is a loudmouthed goof
Gary is awsome him and Serwacy kick major @#$ together they are unstoppable. But you forgot the best part because Gary is so charismatic he has groupies and when him and serwacy focus he fills in all the gaps that serwacy cant do like cast spells.
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For those of you who don't like the song and dance sort of bard(though historically there is alot of precedence, just about any army you can imagine had some sort of musical accompanyment that served to either keep their own troops in time with each other or to frighten their enemies) you have to remember that perform can take many forms.
With their high charisma and ability to take on any role necessary in the party bards often make great leaders. So give your bard Perform:Oratory and let him lead the party into battle with a rousing speech.
I mean of course there is always some example you could find that would be far-fetched(I want you to pick this lock for your country...) but it does add alot of flavor to a more 'serious' bard.
Bards always get the girl. ;-)
There's nothing wrong with playing a bard. I play one! I do wish she was stronger though. Our cleric had to sew me back together in the Tomb of Horrors adventure. I got cut in half by a four armed gargoyel. I hope I spelled that right.
Ever since one of those feathered cap and panty hose wearing panpipers stole my highschool sweetheart, pickpocketed my wallet and took all the credit for the monster killin' I done did while protecting his scrawny "charming" behind I've had it out for bards everywhere.
It really does come down to the fact that it's difficult to play them properly. Roleplaying a character with a higher charisma than you may have in real life is a bit of a challenge, especially if you're one of the wet handed mouth breathers often seen at Trekkie conventions and They Might Be Giants concerts. And that's really the only redeeming thing about them; they're built to be the mouth of the party and beyond that they shine at nothing. If I ever wind up not behind the DM screen, I'd rather play a character with a clearly definied strength of some sort, just so that I can shine at something when it's time to throw down. Any character has personality, if played right, and I want to do things more exciting than sitting in back playing a support role. That's why I'm not currently enthralled by the idea of playing a bard.
And I will not apologize. I don't like bards. They're silly. They play instruments while the rest of the group fights monsters and villains. Great public relations folks, but leave the charming dilettante in town so that they don't get in the way while the real action is going down. Might ruin their manicure.
Playing a bard souns like fun. However, if I play a bard, I plan on using singing as the way that my abilities are used. Think "The WishSong of Shanara" type of bard. Also, I will try to be as effective at aiding the party as I can be.
An interesting way to justify a bard's song abilities would be to give him or her the Words of Creation or Dark Speech feats.
So instead of singing some silly little tune he/she's actually chanting an incantation in one of the two oldest and most powerful languages in existence. Makes them seem a lot less foolish if the bonuses are created by actual magic rather than simply lifting spirits. As a note you don't actually have to use the feats all the time, your character could just be using a lower powered chant that is mechanically the same as normal bardsong.
On the other hand people really do work better to music, for example I first managed to do a proper scissor kick while I was listening to some really kickass rock music.