Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm not going to spend $.25 to buy a card if I have to pay $2 in shipping and handling.That's good, because we're not going to sell it to you. Our costs for processing your credit card make that strategy a loser for everyone. To counter this, some webstores have minimum orders; paizo.com just has a policy of "nothing under $.99".
We haven't really discussed this much yet, but *if* we sell loose cards, we'll probably end up selling them in preconfigured groups.
-Vic.
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C'mon now Vic, I know my posts are long and rambling, full of diversions, diatribes, and general nonesense, but that's what I said! If the transaction cost for singles is too high, there won't be a secondary market for the singles on the internet.
Good Idea. Good Concept. Good Intention. But we know what they say about good intentions.
I already carry too much equipment to the table:
Three Core Books
Up to three more Supplemental Books
Two folders of reference information (F.A.Q.s, All About series, etc.)
Two figure carrying cases
Plexiglas battle grid (with four Plexiglas stands)
Pencils, dice, paper
Drinks
Snacks
And of course, Dungeon Magazine
I’m trying to ease my burden, not add to it. I can already see myself leaving the cards on my nightstand at home and grinding the game to a halt trying to find them when the PCs find the loot.
I am also considering taking my laptop to the game now, too. I think the future in gaming will progress with its core players whom are largely in their 30’s. These players (like myself) are looking to improve the game through technology (IMing, real-time character conditions, real-time round by round initiative counts, fog-of-war, etc.). But I’m sure there are a group of players and DMs that welcome a product like this.
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One final note: our largest single demographic is 18 to 34 year old males; they make up over 65% of our market. Folks in this age category outnumber the "over 35" category 3-to-1. Obviously, we're going to endeavor to provide a product that targets the largest swath of our demographic possible. If, as you state, we've failed to target the older buyers with our booster format would we be far from justified in doing so given the data above?
I assert no. But, as has been stated by many, let's just see what happens.
P.S. I appreciate everyone's comments. Insight and opinion from our customers is never bad. Keep 'em coming. :-)
Wow, sorry, I estimated 25-45 but only to include any of the older set that roams the board. 18-34 is so radically different from 25+ that I really do deserve a flogging. I still don't see that demographic fitting into the preteens and teens (10-17)in school who fall for this type of marketing strategy. I think maybe the marketing department should do some research into what their customers want. With the bulk of the advertising for this product most-likely to be in Dungeon and Dragon Magazines and at Paizo.com, it seems like subscribers should have been more of the "target". I would love to know the average age of Dungeon subscribers. I would guess its closer to 30 than 20. So once again, 30 year olds fighting to buy all the booster packs. Ain't happening.
I love the site and I love Paizo but I think the ball wasn't handled properly on this one.
FH
It seems to me that there's a lot of confusion about how we're expecting the item cards to be used, so I wanted to chime in here (since I did the graphic design for the set).
The box of cards is going to have 54 cards, that pretty covers all the normal items a DM might give out during a session. Swords, potions, armor, scrolls, rings, amulets, and a couple oddball items. Every item is generic though. It's not a Potion of Cure Light Wounds, it's a potion. It's 100% useful no matter what potion the DM is handing out.
However, a lot of us are visual people, and we like variety, so that's the reason for the booster packs. Instead of the same set of 54 cards from the first box, we've expanded it out to 110 cards, again, all generic, so you can EXPAND the variety of the items you hand out. There are 18 potions in the boosters set, each with it's own illustration. Variety. Spice of life. Etcetera.
You don't need a whole set of these cards, ever. There's nothing that requires that. The price point on a 110 card box would have been at the point where people would probably just say no to it, but a cheap pack of 11 cards is a pretty easy pick-up at the counter when you're tired of just buying more dice. And that's what we were aiming at, something cheap that adds a little fun to your game.
Jason posted the average breakdown of items in a pack, so you can see that every time you buy a pack, you'll have useful stuff in it. And, if you've run out of potions, or scrolls to hand out, you don't have to drop another $10 just to get a couple for that night's game.
So, to recap. If you don't care about visual variety, and don't mind handing out the same four potion cards (remember, they are GENERIC potions, not specific potions, so you can keep using those same four images again and again), or the same couple suits of armor, or what have you, then just buy the box. You know exactly which cards you'll get. You can buy a new box every time you need more potions, or scrolls, or rings.
If you want more variety of the common items, and a few more oddball items (like the Spiked Chain), then pick up the boosters. You also get a foil card, useful for representing an extra special item (you can still write on the back of it, just like a normal card).
Again, just to restate for the record -- you're not chasing any rares or hard to find cards with the boosters. You don't need a whole set. These are meant to be used. To be written on, and kept with the character sheet, and tossed aside after they are used up (in the case of potions).
I have a strong suspiscion that there will be an "Oh, now I get it!" moment when people start using these cards in their games.
CEO
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Hey Dryder:
We will sell these item cards as singles in some fashion on paizo.com here (whether in packs of similar items or whatnot still needs to be determined) and the price will be the same for each card whether it is a potion or a trident or whatever. No high priced rare cards here. There aren't any rare cards...each card is exactly as common as each other card. And the price will be very affordable if you want to go that route (of buying singles from the site).
As James said above, the dice are in motion and we'll see how it plays out. If nobody wants to buy the boosters and the decks are selling really well, you can bet that we will retool the idea. Only time will tell.
Lisa Stevens
CEO
All in all I can say the following:
I might buy ItemPack 1. But as I am a dedicated D&D-Roleplayer (and it doesn't matter if I am 35 years or what I earn monthly) and not a randomized-booster-pack-collector of anything, I will not buy any of those following booster packs. Sorry, but this development of randomized RPG-aids is just an annoying thing to have. The product idea, however, rocks!
PS Stating that we can buy what we want/need on the internet is not an option, if I have to pay about 25 bucks or even more for a single mini.
My first reaction is to say I see as many problems as advantages, and that I'd be concerned that the artist's vision of the world would likely be very different from my own. I'd be up for trying them if someone I knew put in a good word for them.
I, like others here, doubt the idea of selling them in random boosters. I'd rather see them go collectable like baseball cards. Admittedly, those have a random element, but they're also rare and valued based on year, with repeats. I'd be more inclined to buy a pack sold by theme and artist. So rather than buying boosters for "Set 1" I'd rather buy "Timeworn Items" by Tony DiTerlizzi or "Eberron: Elemental Bound Items" by Wayne Reynolds. As others have said, I'd rather see them sold in fixed sets. I imagine the market for this being relatively small, but enough to sustain a few printings a year and let Paizo throw a little more business the artists' way.
Based on my conversations with game store owners, they view display space as being at a premium. I can't imagine a single store or region having demand for more than a few of any given set of these, even if the random scheme is stuck to; even if they're useful, I don't see them taking on the same importance in players' minds as dice or books. What I'm getting at is I don't see store owners having incentive to display these packs prominently. On the other hand, the average game shop is also a comic shop that's used to keeping some back issues around. If the profit margins allow it, I can imagine them being willing to keep a handful of packs for the last few printings around for a year or so.
Most of all, I think you need to introduce players to the idea without competing for game store display space. What better way to do this than as a promotional insert in Dungon, tailored to items in a specific adventure in the issue at hand? This way you get to immediately demonstrate the utility of the product to the DM, and include a blurb on how to use the cards in the article their items are printed for.
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Chief Technical Officer
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... I'd be concerned that the artist's vision of the world would likely be very different from my own.
For the time being, they're all by the same artist, Vincent Dutrait, so if you like the <a href="/store/v5748btpy7m6a">samples</a>, you'll probably like them all.
So rather than buying boosters for "Set 1" I'd rather buy "Timeworn Items" by Tony DiTerlizzi or "Eberron: Elemental Bound Items" by Wayne Reynolds.
<a href="/store/paizo/gameMastery/itemPacks">Future packs</a> will be themed to some degree. Keep in mind that these are not setting- or even system-specific cards, so no Eberron here.
Based on my conversations with game store owners, they view display space as being at a premium.
Which is exactly why we're using the randomized booster format—it provides a variety of cards at a low price point, without requiring the retailer to manage multiple SKUs. And the 12-pack display boxes require very little display space and very little investment into inventory.
I think you need to introduce players to the idea without competing for game store display space. You've got the perfect medium to do this in, of course...
We'll be working on that...
-Vic.
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Hey Dryder:
We will sell these item cards as singles in some fashion on paizo.com here (whether in packs of similar items or whatnot still needs to be determined) and the price will be the same for each card whether it is a potion or a trident or whatever. No high priced rare cards here. There aren't any rare cards...each card is exactly as common as each other card. And the price will be very affordable if you want to go that route (of buying singles from the site).
As James said above, the dice are in motion and we'll see how it plays out. If nobody wants to buy the boosters and the decks are selling really well, you can bet that we will retool the idea. Only time will tell.
Lisa Stevens
CEO
It's so great that you guys from paizo really listen to us, even if we get a bit harsh sometimes! Your feetback and your explanations are really appreciated and (sometimes) help to understand how things work.
I hope this card-thing works out for all of us!Cheers, Dryder
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It seems to me that there's a lot of confusion about how we're expecting the item cards to be used, so I wanted to chime in here (since I did the graphic design for the set).
The box of cards is going to have 54 cards, that pretty covers all the normal items a DM might give out during a session. Swords, potions, armor, scrolls, rings, amulets, and a couple oddball items. Every item is generic though. It's not a Potion of Cure Light Wounds, it's a potion. It's 100% useful no matter what potion the DM is handing out.
However, a lot of us are visual people, and we like variety, so that's the reason for the booster packs. Instead of the same set of 54 cards from the first box, we've expanded it out to 110 cards, again, all generic, so you can EXPAND the variety of the items you hand out. There are 18 potions in the boosters set, each with it's own illustration. Variety. Spice of life. Etcetera.
You don't need a whole set of these cards, ever. There's nothing that requires that. The price point on a 110 card box would have been at the point where people would probably just say no to it, but a cheap pack of 11 cards is a pretty easy pick-up at the counter when you're tired of just buying more dice. And that's what we were aiming at, something cheap that adds a little fun to your game.
Jason posted the average breakdown of items in a pack, so you can see that every time you buy a pack, you'll have useful stuff in it. And, if you've run out of potions, or scrolls to hand out, you don't have to drop another $10 just to get a couple for that night's game.
So, to recap. If you don't care about visual variety, and don't mind handing out the same four potion cards (remember, they are GENERIC potions, not specific potions, so you can keep using those same four images again and again), or the same couple suits of armor, or what have you, then just buy the box. You know exactly which cards you'll get. You can buy a new box every time you need more potions, or scrolls, or rings.
If you want more...
Good post, best on the thread. It makes me feel somewhat better about the way this product is being handled....BUT, I hope this works because I love the idea and want nothing but success for Paizo. I will try a couple boosters and see how childish I feel doing so.
FH
This image appears on the extra card in the 54-card box (it's card number 55, actually which contains the little blurb about using the item cards). It shows how we use the cards here at the office.
I like the idea of these cards and will give them a try if they ever reach germany. They may be especially useful in our group because these guys tend to forget their magic items when things get a little hasty during the game. I'm sure they won't forget them when they have one of these beautiful cards in front of them. Congrats to Vincent Dutrait for some great pieces of art!
Thanks to the Paizo folks for posting clarifications and more information. My first response to the news of the item cards was only mild curiosity, but when I saw the randomized booster aspect I became less interested.
Reading this thread has piqued my curiosity again - I may actually pick up the basic set(s) as they come out, but I still don't see myself getting any randomized boosters.
Now, if as Ms Stevens suggests, there will be some way of picking up singles from this site eventually, then I'll most likely get any singles items I want out of the booster set(s) that way.
Theme packs would also be of more interest to me than random sets, as would item cards in your GameMastery Compleat Encounter products. Most of all, I like the idea of including a sheet or two of them with each issue of Dungeon. (since I already subscribe, and will continue for the foreseeable future... ;-) )
I like the idea of these cards and will give them a try if they ever reach germany.
I can confirm that both Welt der Spiele and Ulisses' Spiele have ordered this product. Check in at your local gaming store and make sure they order some.
While I don't like the approach used to sell the D&D miniatures, I will buy these cards and have already pre-ordered the first set. Since Paizo is not going to use the rare/uncommon/common approach that is so annoying about the minis, I don't have a beef with the booster pack approach. I hope this thing is a hit for you guys. I love the map packs and these cards are going to be a nice addition to the visual aspect of my games.
It's been said and I'll say it again.
Great idea, we've actually done something like this a time or two with my gaming group. But the randomizing will be a pain I think I and the rest of my group will probably just wait until they are sold individually.
I think I'd prefer a CD-ROM of printable images or PDFs, which would allow me to print them as I needed them.
That's more or less what I think, too.
Personally, I can see using these cards for "consumable" items like potions, scrolls or even wands, but I think I and my players would prefer to just continue writing permanent items on the permanent character sheet. After all, we'll need to apply the changes made by these items directly on the sheet anyway, so where's the benefit in using cards? Strikes me as just one more thing to lose.
I don't particularly object to the randomised approach to these cards, or to the D&D miniatures, although I don't buy the miniatures largely because of that fact. If I want a specific monster for an upcoming adventure, a random package of monsters is no use to me, especially if it's a Beholder or other rare figure.
However, one of the huge benefits of the random packaging is that is allows Wizards to produce models for rare creatures that wouldn't sell in sufficient numbers if sold seperately. Chances are that everyone who buys miniatures would pick up a few orcs, but how many people would be looking for gricks? If only a few people buy them, as would probably be the case, sales wouldn't be sufficient to justify producing a grick figure. However, if the packs are random, there's a lot more freedom in which monsters are produced.
Greetings,
first post on your boards. This product lured me over. I have been a DM for D&D for quite some years now and run several groups at the moment (high and low-level Forgotten Realms and Living Greyhawk). I am also a regular Dungeon reader.
My first reaction: Oh wow! Cool things to hand out to my players for them to keep.
Second reaction when I read about the steep price of the follow-up displays: Oh my... not ANOTHER random card distribution. All my money goes into D&D minis already. ;)
I read a few comments from several Paizo employees here and now have a better picture what it will be like. Giving it a second thought after this and reconsidering the value of these cards I must admit I still love the idea about hand-out cards.
What I like:
- All cards have the same rarity. Great!
- Excellent illustrations!
- Great give-away and incentive for players!
- Boosters can be bought to spice up the game for a low price.
- The price for the introduction set is great! I really wish this would be the price for the upcoming sets as well. Not sure what your pricing politics will be here. I am not concerned about the random distribution
My concerns (and worst case scenarios for me as a DM):
- Price of display seem too steep. Would you guys price a fixed amount of non-random cards for the forthcoming sets like the first? (54 cards for 10 dollars) I probably won`t buy displays after the first set exept for the casual booster now and then.
- Avaiability in the future. For how long will you stock and produce older sets? As your sets are themed I might run out of older cards at one point (let`s say in two years). Will I still be able to get older cards?
- So I hand a player a card with my writings in the back of it. Next thing the players do is sell all the stuff in town. There goes the neatly written card back into the DMs Vault. What am I gonna do with the card now? Only solution I see is handing it another player in another group or I will get a regular "Oh, that Potion #23 again, huh? No way I gonna drink it.". Cards seem to be "wasted" quickly.
- Who will pay for the cards? Not as in what kind of people will buy but who at my gaming table: The DM or the players? These are great cards to hand to the players and let them keep them. So I as DM pay for them? Or will the players chip in some money here and then? Wouldn`t they complain if they pay but didn`t get cool cards now and then?
That`s why a low cost fixed set would work so much better in my opinion. I wouldn`t mind getting a bunch of cards for 10 bucks to give them away for free as a DM. But to get a display to have enough cards it REALLY hurts to pay 42 dollars for give-aways. By the way: How many boosters are in one display and would a display cover ALL items in the set?
- Variety. Let`s say my players are really hyped about those cards. Now they demand a card for every item they find! Players find all kinds of weird things. As I don`t know what things you guys have planned let me express my wish to see at least ALL wondrous items from the DMG pop up in a set sooner or later (especially all these Headbands of Intelligence, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Amuletts of Health, ... you catch my drift...)
- Will the Power level of items be visable? As we all know you can get a longsword +1 or a longsword +5 or a Headband of Int +2 or +6. Are there illustartions which are based on the same item but have different "magical auras" strengths? This way players have a similiar item (based on same design) but small details are enhanced (more gems, fiery auro, bigger details). Anything like this covered yet?
- "Can I have a card for the things we already found?". Here`s an idea: Would you mind putting a blank card online as PDF? All we need is the nice frame in the proper size front and back and a white rectangle in the middle. This way we can also make our own magic items cards. We add them to the set for the players who have found really strange things which your item pack doesn`t cover. Just an idea.
To sum it up:
Looking forward to get a starter set to test my players reaction. The boosters are alright. When ordering something from an online retailer or shopping in the FLGS grabbing an extra booster doesn`t hurt the wallet a lot. I would prefer to known what I get but random distribution is easier for retailers to store and display these things. As this increases the chance that my FLGS will offer them at all it thus turns out to be good.
We will give it a try!
Amurayi
www.lemonbutter.com/dd
www.lemonbutter.com/westgate
I can confirm that both Welt der Spiele and Ulisses' Spiele have ordered this product. Check in at your local gaming store and make sure they order some.
Thanks for that info! I´m going to visit my local games store and inform them on that. Perhaps they can order the "Basic Set". I don´t know which retailer they order from, but I´ll see.
Stefan
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Greetings,
first post on your boards. This product lured me over. I have been a DM for D&D for quite some years now and run several groups at the moment (high and low-level Forgotten Realms and Living Greyhawk). I am also a regular Dungeon reader.
My first reaction: Oh wow! Cool things to hand out to my players for them to keep.
Second reaction when I read about the steep price of the follow-up displays: Oh my... not ANOTHER random card distribution. All my money goes into D&D minis already. ;)
I read a few comments from several Paizo employees here and now have a better picture what it will be like. Giving it a second thought after this and reconsidering the value of these cards I must admit I still love the idea about hand-out cards.
What I like:
- All cards have the same rarity. Great!
- Excellent illustrations!
- Great give-away and incentive for players!
- Boosters can be bought to spice up the game for a low price.
- The price for the introduction set is great! I really wish this would be the price for the upcoming sets as well. Not sure what your pricing politics will be here. I am not concerned about the random distributionMy concerns (and worst case scenarios for me as a DM):
- Price of display seem too steep. Would you guys price a fixed amount of non-random cards for the forthcoming sets like the first? (54 cards for 10 dollars) I probably won`t buy displays after the first set exept for the casual booster now and then.- Avaiability in the future. For how long will you stock and produce older sets? As your sets are themed I might run out of older cards at one point (let`s say in two years). Will I still be able to get older cards?
- So I hand a player a card with my writings in the back of it. Next thing the players do is sell all the stuff in town. There goes the neatly written card back into the DMs Vault. What am I gonna do with the card now? Only solution I see is handing it another player in another group or I will get a regular "Oh, that Potion #23 again, huh? No...
It was stated that while there will be a variety of swords, the actual description of the sword is up to you to write up on the back of the card. In other words, the same picture could be used for a +1 longsword or a +5 vorpal sword of whatever, depending on how you fill out the back of the card.
You won't get guantlets of ogre power, you will get guantlets that you need to fill in what type they are. They are generic items that you fill in the details for. A necklace could be a necklace of prayer beads or a 100gp plain necklace. Flexibility is the key.FH
You mean like with a $60 hardcover book or $40 magazine subscriptions?
--Erik
Ouch! You got me with that one. Okay, maybe I'm kicking off because I want you to supply what I want and of course you need to cater to your wider market.
I guess my gripe is about choice. Apart from the obvious choice of whether or not to buy the cards at all, it would be nice to have the choice of what cards I am buying. However, I do appreciate that Paizo is a business and the trend shows that collectables make money.
Hey Lisa, Vic, and Paizo Staff ... can I make a suggestion?
Has anyone at Paizo given thought to some blank cards being available? So, if you don't happen to have a spoon card for the Spoon of Murylund, someone can "whip one up"?
If you sold blank cards in packs of 10, that would be helpful.
They ARE all blank cards. You just get the drawing of a potion and a short description of how it looks and smells like and then a blank field for you, DM, to make notes and for the PC to add his own.
You won't get a card of "+2 keen longsword", but a card with a longsword and you can make it whatever you want it to be...
This is as customizable as printed cards get, I guess! ;-)
Bocklin, who had the "Oh, now I get it" effect after he saw that:
http://paizo.com/image/product/secondary/ItemPack1/itempackinuse.jpg
OK, so I was actualy tempted to buy a set until I realized that visual descriptions are on the back. I don't want to be stuck with a card with gloves that have a leaf or something on them when they are supposed to be gloves of swimming and climbing.
Edit: I'm probably being to fickle about these, but I guess I would prefer the ability to have exactly what I need and when I need it.
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Sure, you _could_ buy a pack of Magic cards, or something, but why not go for something that can enhance the game that got you into gaming in the first place?
--Erik
As a DM I could see myself buying them (though the random factor is not making me happy) even though they may not look at all like the items I had planned on handing over to my players.
Honestly, I much prefer investing in this:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=379&products_id =569&
given I'm 100% sure of getting all the pic at once and can choose/print those I like on cardboard for my players. Sure, they would be B&W instead of color but it's the pic that counts.
As a player, I wouldn't buy any. Two reasons: 1) I could never be sure my DM would make me find stuff which I could represent with those cards I own, and 2) I don't see why I should invest in cards which would end up in the bag of other players.
In short, nice but no thanks.
The box of cards is going to have 54 cards, that pretty covers all the normal items a DM might give out during a session. Swords, potions, armor, scrolls, rings, amulets, and a couple oddball items. Every item is generic though. It's not a Potion of Cure Light Wounds, it's a potion. It's 100% useful no matter what potion the DM is handing out.
Actually I think you were mis-interpreting what I meant.
A lot of DM's describe their potions as looking the same if it is the same potion. So duplicates of potions (on the cards) would be a good thing.
Of course that also lets me hand out what would be considered "the card that looks like CSW potion" but turns out to be poison.
As far as the random thing goes it really depends on what it is, if I get a lot of the same card and it isn't a very generic picture or description then duplicates aren't going to be very useful. Such as the breastplate with a leaf on it, sure you could use it in off-chance your party slaughters the Wardens of the Celadon forest but otherwise it's a little too unique to hand out twice, IMO of course.
I agree with many posts here -- those of us who are older gamers with money to spend are wary of the marketing tactics. The random cards after the first pack makes me not want to buy them. The Miniatures' variation in prices just makes no sense to me. The whole 'rarity' thing was fun when we were starting to learn our Magic: The Gathering skills but it's old hat now. Make all the cards available for the same price, let us pick and choose the ones we want and do the same with the miniatures. You'll make more money in the long run.
I agree with many posts here -- those of us who are older gamers with money to spend are wary of the marketing tactics. The random cards after the first pack makes me not want to buy them. The Miniatures' variation in prices just makes no sense to me. The whole 'rarity' thing was fun when we were starting to learn our Magic: The Gathering skills but it's old hat now. Make all the cards available for the same price, let us pick and choose the ones we want and do the same with the miniatures. You'll make more money in the long run.
I don't think you understand. There are no rarity levels. Every card has the same rarity level - the only difference is that they are making sure that you have more 'disposable' items represented in the booster packs, since logically those are the ones you will use the most.
As I understand it, this is the model that Paizo is following:
-Inital set: 54 cards. Every set has the same 54 cards.
-Booster packs: 11 (or is it 12?) cards. The packs are weighted to have several potions, wands, etc in them, but otherwise the randomization is there just to have a variety of cards. They will include one foil in each pack, but it's only because, well, foil cards are neat.
-Once sales are up and running, they will most likely offer 'pre-sorted' packs that run on a theme that will allow customers to buy a pack full of potions, etc.
-The 'booster pack' aspect was designed so that a DM could drop a few dollars at the FLGS to get enough potions, etc, to cover that night's gaming and /not/ have to drop $10-$20 on complete sets to refresh a few items.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see nothing wrong with this model, other than that people are assuming it's Pokemon: the Gathering Wardrums-gi-Yoh.
I know I'll buy them if Ravenstone sells them.
At the time of my initial post, I hadn't seen the samples or understood they were generic rather than specific (eg. 'breastplate' instead of '+1 Mithril Breastplate'). Random boosters will be more useful than the miniature ones because of this.
I'm a little worried that they can be easily wasted though; how often do you come across a +2 Axiomatic short sword of Parrying? Once it's sold or lost, it's unlikely to be found again and will only add to clutter. The answer to avoiding waste would be to be choosy as to when to use them. For example, with a simple +2 short sword rather than a more unique item.
Now that I have a clearer idea of what the product is, I'll try a set and see how the players take to them. Thanks for the input; it helped sell your product & make us more informed as consumers.
And I'll say it again...bring back the "DECK OF RANDOM ENCOUNTERS"!!! I have a new cause... ;)
J-
The cards seem like an interesting idea but I know even though I had spell and power cards back in 2nd edition I found I rarely made use of them. I did use some hand written index cards for a few characters to select spells and that worked ok. It's too early to tell.
People are complaining about the random boosters but I think in this case they are a good idea because a) the starter set provides a lot of good stuff and is non-random and b) all of the cards in the random boosters have equal rarity and c) these cards are less likely to inspire you to want to have to collect them all.
As far as the random minis go, I have to confess I'm a total junkie for the WotC D&D and Star Wars minis. I like that they serve well for both a tactical miniatures game and for use in the role-playing games. Yes it's frustrating to pull duplicates of rares and to find yourself not getting some of the rares you really want. But you can buy them individually online, in stores and at conventions. Also our gaming experience has been greatly enhanced by having these miniatures. It would simply be impossible to find the time to paint so many miniatures and there just simply isn't the variety of monsters available in metal. Plus they're official and include ready to use stat cards. They're also more resistant to abuse (you can toss them into plastic cases without banging them up much or chipping paint) and they're lighter than metal. Don't get me wrong, I like metal minis a lot too but our use of minis has greatly increased and been improved by my addiction. :-) One other benefit of the random minis the way they are is I do get several of the common minis which frequently comes in handy with encounters with groups of monsters. You just usually won't buy more than one or two of a given metal mini at $4+. Oh, in most stores I've been to there is a high percentage of mangling with the metal minis. Swords folded over, staves twisted, etc. A slight bend is certainly easy to fix but many of these would be really hard to correct without breaking the figure.
Just my take on stuff,
L
At the time of my initial post, I hadn't seen the samples or understood they were generic rather than specific (eg. 'breastplate' instead of '+1 Mithril Breastplate'). Random boosters will be more useful than the miniature ones because of this.
I'm a little worried that they can be easily wasted though; how often do you come across a +2 Axiomatic short sword of Parrying?
Wow, I suspect the present thread of being a "+2 Thread of Greater Misunderstanding". ;-)
They ARE generic.
The picture posted is just an example of how you could use them and the text (se the handwriting style?) is just scribbled there to give us an impression.
So you'll get a "magic shortsword" and then you do whatever you want with it.
Bocklin
I agree with many posts here -- those of us who are older gamers with money to spend are wary of the marketing tactics. The random cards after the first pack makes me not want to buy them. The Miniatures' variation in prices just makes no sense to me. The whole 'rarity' thing was fun when we were starting to learn our Magic: The Gathering skills but it's old hat now. Make all the cards available for the same price, let us pick and choose the ones we want and do the same with the miniatures. You'll make more money in the long run.I don't think you understand. There are no rarity levels. Every card has the same rarity level - the only difference is that they are making sure that you have more 'disposable' items represented in the booster packs, since logically those are the ones you will use the most.
As I understand it, this is the model that Paizo is following:
-Inital set: 54 cards. Every set has the same 54 cards.
-Booster packs: 11 (or is it 12?) cards. The packs are weighted to have several potions, wands, etc in them, but otherwise the randomization is there just to have a variety of cards. They will include one foil in each pack, but it's only because, well, foil cards are neat.
-Once sales are up and running, they will most likely offer 'pre-sorted' packs that run on a theme that will allow customers to buy a pack full of potions, etc.
-The 'booster pack' aspect was designed so that a DM could drop a few dollars at the FLGS to get enough potions, etc, to cover that night's gaming and /not/ have to drop $10-$20 on complete sets to refresh a few items.
If your description is true, then that's better. If only some common sense could be brought to miniatures pricing then we'd have some tools here we could really use (although I'd still be pissed if I bought six booster packs and failed to get an item that I need more of than came in the Initial 54 set. It's the "fishing" around that is annoying, not only for money's sake, but time. This is the kind of product I likely wouldn't buy until it had passed whatever milestone the makers think is necessary to start making the "pre-sorted" packs. They're not so helpful to my game that I'll be sorry if they go, but if the organization gets more convenient I'll be happy to use them.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If your description is true, then that's better. If only some common sense could be brought to miniatures pricing then we'd have some tools here we could really use (although I'd still be pissed if I bought six booster packs and failed to get an item that I need more of than came in the Initial 54 set. It's the "fishing" around that is annoying, not only for money's sake, but time. This is the kind of product I likely wouldn't buy until it had passed whatever milestone the makers think is necessary to start making the "pre-sorted" packs. They're not so helpful to my game that I'll be sorry if they go, but if the organization gets more convenient I'll be happy to use them.
Actually, if you take the time to read the full thread, not only will you see that what Gwydion said is true, but you will see a good explanation for why pre-sorted packets were considered, and rejected, by the Paizo staff.
Keep in mind that a business cannot present an infinite array of product choices - they must pick and choose based on their customers and other dirty old business concerns (i.e. profit). Despite rumors to the contrary, malice against the customers is not actually one of the things considered.
I would like to pay less money to see bad movies, but that is not an option. Paizo can provide item cards in non-random starters or random boosters. Providing item cards in sorted boosters creates a number of problems (as discussed ad naseum in this thread) and (is believed) to only slightly increase the chance of the product being successful.
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You've asked for my opinion. Here it is.
I would not buy this product.
1) The cards will have a limited number of artistic representations of the various items that could be found. While they are "generic", I need lots of some items and very few of others. We use approximately 3x more longswords in my games as shortswords. To some degree I tailor treasure to the PCs. They won't find greatswords for tiny characters in most random treasures - I'd prefer to put something that they could use, unless my PC is tiny, in which case that changes. The point, though, is that I might need a lot of one type of weapon and none of another. This is particularly true with swords, armor and shields. I could use one or two spears (or maybe 5) to represent all spears that might be found. I can even use just a few versions of potions. But, non disposable items should be special - they'll rarely be reused. Longsword x should not look like longsword y. Those items should not be "generic", meaning I'd need different pictures for each type.
2) I don't want to buy a random pack. If I were to use these items frequently, I'd need far more potions than anything else. A typical 5th level PC might have three different types of potions. For a group of 12 people, that requires the use of 12 different cards. While they might all look the same, I'm going to have to buy several sets of randomized cards to get enough potions for my group - and these are conservative numbers. I might literally need dozens of potions, while only needing a handful of "expensive" items.
3) A set organized by type might be more useful in that I'd be getting. If I need a dozen swords, a sword pack would be good. If I need a dozen potions, a potion pack would be good. This appears not to be viable.
4) If the Player's take notes on the card, I can't use it in future adventures. These items are effectively 1-shot. If they were "wet erase" that would be better.
If this product were going to work for me it would need to be sold as a "more than complete set". What this means is that I'd get one copy of each "distinct item", and there would need to be a lot of them, plus several copies of "generic items". So, the complete set might have 5 versions of each weapon (an evil, a good, a "natural", etc) listed in the PHB with a few exotics from other sources (one each, perhaps) and twenty "scroll" cards, twenty "potion cards", etc. I'd probably need at least 10 different distinct rings, etc and they'd need to be reusable.
This would still lead to the problem of having a bunch of cards sitting around that I'm not using. I'd prefer to be able to print my own cards as needed. I don't think we're at the point where "on-demand" cards would be viable. So, no, this product is not for me.
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Chief Technical Officer
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1) The cards will have a limited number of artistic representations of the various items that could be found. While they are "generic", I need lots of some items and very few of others. We use approximately 3x more longswords in my games as shortswords.
I've added the card list for Item Pack 2, so you can see that the set contains three different longswords and two different shortswords, while more common items like potions have as many as eighteen different illustrations.
To some degree I tailor treasure to the PCs. They won't find greatswords for tiny characters in most random treasures - I'd prefer to put something that they could use, unless my PC is tiny, in which case that changes.
There are generally no indications of scale in the artwork, except relative to a body of unspecified size. So the same sword could be tiny or huge. (And the players can note that on the back of the card.)
2) I don't want to buy a random pack. If I were to use these items frequently, I'd need far more potions than anything else. A typical 5th level PC might have three different types of potions. For a group of 12 people, that requires the use of 12 different cards. While they might all look the same, I'm going to have to buy several sets of randomized cards to get enough potions for my group - and these are conservative numbers. I might literally need dozens of potions, while only needing a handful of "expensive" items.
This is *exactly* the reason for the randomized pack. If you want a dozen potions, you'd have to spend $30 to buy three decks, and you'd have three each of four illustrations... or you could buy six or seven booster packs, and spend a bit less. Plus you'd get a wider variety of illustrations—since there are eighteen different potion illustrations, you'd be unlikely to get the same illustration too many times—and you'd also get a wider varity of items than you would in the three-deck route.
4) If the Player's take notes on the card, I can't use it in future adventures. These items are effectively 1-shot. If they were "wet erase" that would be better.
We haven't yet been able to test a lot of different writing implements on the surface. But I'm sure there will be things that are less permanent than others. Or you could use card sleeves to pair them with a bit of paper. You're a clever guy—I'm sure you can think of other solutions on your own.
If this product were going to work for me it would need to be sold as a "more than complete set". What this means is that I'd get one copy of each "distinct item", and there would need to be a lot of them, plus several copies of "generic items". So, the complete set might have 5 versions of each weapon (an evil, a good, a "natural", etc) listed in the PHB with a few exotics from other sources (one each, perhaps) and twenty "scroll" cards, twenty "potion cards", etc. I'd probably need at least 10 different distinct rings, etc and they'd need to be reusable.
Again, you're describing the very reason that it's packaged as a deck plus a bunch of boosters. It's allowing you to decide just how much "more than a complete set" you want.
This would still lead to the problem of having a bunch of cards sitting around that I'm not using.
Your players don't regularly find treasure that they don't use? Even if they only hold on to it until they get to the next shop to sell it, it's still more interesting to look at, and more easy to account for, than a scribbled list of "stuff we found."
-Vic.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Amurayi,
Welcome to the boards. I suspect the reason nobody has replied to you yet is that several of your questions don't really have answers yet, but I'll touch on what I can....
Would you guys price a fixed amount of non-random cards for the forthcoming sets like the first? (54 cards for 10 dollars) I probably won`t buy displays after the first set exept for the casual booster now and then.
It's too early to say—we've hardly discussed selling sets yet, and haven't come to firm conclusions. It is likely you'll be able to buy all of the cards in the set online, though.
Avaiability in the future. For how long will you stock and produce older sets? As your sets are themed I might run out of older cards at one point (let`s say in two years). Will I still be able to get older cards?
This is even harder to answer. How fast will we sell out of the first printing? Will people want us to keep older sets in print? Will sales justify reprinting? Will our customers prefer we don't reprint? We don't know, and it'll be a while before we need to ask or answer those questions.
So I hand a player a card with my writings in the back of it. Next thing the players do is sell all the stuff in town. There goes the neatly written card back into the DMs Vault. What am I gonna do with the card now?
See my response in the previous post.
Who will pay for the cards? Not as in what kind of people will buy but who at my gaming table: The DM or the players? These are great cards to hand to the players and let them keep them. So I as DM pay for them? Or will the players chip in some money here and then? Wouldn`t they complain if they pay but didn`t get cool cards now and then?
That's up to you and your players! Who pays for the gaming accessories you buy now?
That`s why a low cost fixed set would work so much better in my opinion. I wouldn`t mind getting a bunch of cards for 10 bucks to give them away for free as a DM. But to get a display to have enough cards it REALLY hurts to pay 42 dollars for give-aways.
And that's what the first set, sold in deck form, is for.
By the way: How many boosters are in one display and would a display cover ALL items in the set?
12 boosters per display. If you get lucky, you could get a complete set of non-foils, but we suspect it will take a few more packs.
Variety. Let`s say my players are really hyped about those cards. Now they demand a card for every item they find! Players find all kinds of weird things. As I don`t know what things you guys have planned let me express my wish to see at least ALL wondrous items from the DMG pop up in a set sooner or later (especially all these Headbands of Intelligence, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Amuletts of Health, ... you catch my drift...)
Keeping in mind that we're doing non-specific items (headbands, gauntlets, amulets), we plan to do most of the common item types you might find before the end of the year.
-Vic.
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Actually, if you take the time to read the full thread, not only will you see that what Gwydion said is true, but you will see a good explanation for why pre-sorted packets were considered, and rejected, by the Paizo staff.
Keep in mind that a business cannot present an infinite array of product choices - they must pick and choose based on their customers and other dirty old business concerns (i.e. profit). Despite rumors to the contrary, malice against the customers is not actually one of the things considered.
I would like to pay less money to see bad movies, but that is not an option. Paizo can provide item cards in non-random starters or random boosters. Providing item cards in sorted boosters creates a number of problems (as discussed ad naseum in this thread) and (is believed) to only slightly increase the chance of the product being successful.
Yes, yes, yes, I've heard your marketing thoughts (analysis -- condescending parentheticals yours) but it does nothing to change my opinion. You know what? Too bad if it only slightly increases the chance of success with the product, that's my review of it and I vote with my wallet. My solution is buy one starter pack and then photocopy anything I need extras of on card stock. Simple and cheap and I get what I want.
You have plenty of options, by the way, for seeing bad movies cheaper, and the options are growing in number all of the time. They are driven by consumers who shape the marketplace with their choices, like mine.
If you would like to be really helpful, lend Paizo and WoTC and whomever else is involved your economic brainpower and help them solve the Minis mess.
I like the idea, as well as the cards. I enjoy using props for visual. Although I must say that the cards would deffinatly be better if different cards of the same item had different illustrations. I'm not saying a hundred different illustrations, but a few. This would help make the game seem more real and allow for more custimization.
I just took another glance at it and noticed several of the same item apeering several times, so I'm guessing there are several illustrations. *puts his foot back in his mouth*
I used cards I made myself a few years ago with one of my campaigns. My players lost them and such all the time and would ask me if I had it/could make a new one/etcetera. I quit using cards and now just tell them "you get magic item X; write it down."
Things have been easier since then.
quote
"One final note: our largest single demographic is 18 to 34 year old males; they make up over 65% of our market. Folks in this age category outnumber the "over 35" category 3-to-1. Obviously, we're going to endeavor to provide a product that targets the largest swath of our demographic possible. If, as you state, we've failed to target the older buyers with our booster format would we be far from justified in doing so given the data above?"
I'm 34 years old and starting to get fed up with all the marketing, randomization, "new-power stuff X" books and such. Funny how that plays into the above quoted demographic information.
I'm just a DM looking to find things that help me maximize my time.
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This product could work, but I know I won't buy the randomized packs.
Like I said, I might need 5 different illustrations of a longsword. But that is also the type of item that I would never "duplicate". Thus, if I give two different players a longsword, I'd have to give them different pictures. I couldn't reuse those pictures for those players.
Now, while a randomized pack might net me more scrolls and potions (which I can reuse) I don't want to run the risk of getting two identical longswords. I've been burned that way before when I was younger and more foolish.
So, I'll wait until the "complete pack" comes out, and get one illustration of each picture. While I could use extra potions and scrolls, I won't buy the random packs to get them, since I don't want duplicates.
And I'd consider the foil cards to be more of a nuisance than a bonus. My guess is that the complete set wouldn't include any foils? That would be fine by me.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And I'd consider the foil cards to be more of a nuisance than a bonus. My guess is that the complete set wouldn't include any foils? That would be fine by me.
I agree, the foil cards seem out of place considering that the sets aren't intended to be collector's items per se. Maybe foil cards are so common in the CCG industry that the printers of the cards give them out as part of a freebie package. "One free foil for every 15 cards printed! Buy now, supplies are limited."
Or, maybe the foils are just very cool looking. *shrug*
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Chief Technical Officer
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To be clear, when the same item is listed n times on the card lists, it means that there are n different pieces of art for that item.
As for the foils, they just make for good extra-special items. So when the PCs finally beat the big boss, maybe the +3 axe they recover deserves a foil card. Or when the leaders of the dwarven city present the party with wondrous gifts as tokens of gratitude, you pull out the foils.
On the topic of players losing the cards—one benefit to doing them trading-card-game sized is that they fit into common 9-pocket sleeves, card boxes, etc.
-Vic.
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The idea of items cards is not new to me. I've been making my own cards for my various campaigns for years now, and most of my Players just love the things. I've never had anyone loose a card, and it sure helps in keeping track of the items (no 'I gave that to another player' junk). I actually stopped using the cards for the start of my Age of Worms games, and a few of my Players have been griping about me not having them. I've announced that I'm going to start using them again, and they have made it clear that they are happy about my decision.
As for these Paizo cards though, I'm not sure if I'll buy them. They cards I make myself are laminated, thus they are written on with grease pencil or wet-erase markers. I really don't like the idea of paper cards that are written on and will eventually wear away in time.
That said though, for the price, I may just buy a few to see if they would work in my game. Being 'generic' really helps - and being non-collectable (no rare cards) is a boost too!
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I just need to say this. Paizo staff has won me over to the card idea. I will keep an open mind to the randomized aspect because of the sheer variety and equal commonality (did I just make up a word?) of the cards. I think this product could be a real boon to DM's trying to inject a bit of tactile flavor. I have used props for decades in the game and I love the idea of handing a player what they found instead of trying to come up with a unique description of the 85th longsword that they stumble across.
I was very vocal in voicing my dislike of this product, but due to the dedication of Paizo's staff in trying to explain all the myriad details, I have been educated and find that my early opinion was wrong and came from an uninformed stance.
Sorry to run the Paizites through the ringer, but I'm glad you guys took the time to address the concerns out there.
I still hate the term "randomization", but I think this is one of a very, very limited times when the concept works.
Thanks again Paizites!
FH
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As for these Paizo cards though, I'm not sure if I'll buy them. They cards I make myself are laminated, thus they are written on with grease pencil or wet-erase markers. I really don't like the idea of paper cards that are written on and will eventually wear away in time.
Throw em in a clear card protector, you could write on that.
FH
I think some of my fellow posters are being a little bit hyper-critical. It's probably enough to say *once* that you are or are not planning to purchase this product and a brief explanation of the reason why. No one is going to pressure you into buying these cards if you don't want to; why create an argument where none exists?
Personally, the cards seem like a good idea to me. I like player handouts and though I probably won't use them for every item my players come across, they certainly will be useful for illustrating a really "cool" find. And I'm all for having players responsible for their own belongings. Cards are a great way to introduce items that might later be "removed" from that character.
I'm anxious to see these cards on store shelves.
Throw em in a clear card protector, you could write on that.
FH
Not to mention if you already laminate your own cards....
Thats what I thought I would do with the highly re-usable stuff like potions.
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I just got my 2 decks of Item cards today in the mail.
First Impressions- I love them, they are of a good variety and should work really well.
I think that the artwork is cool BUT I wish the items didn't look so rough. I always picture magic items as flawless examples of whatever they are with etchings, symbols, and other visual trappings. These tend to look more tribal, coarse, and unrefined than I like, especially the jewelry.
Also a double sword would need a much longer handle to use two-handed then the picture shows without lopping of one's own arm.
Overall, I really like them and will be picking up boosters as needed. These will be a big boon to my game. I just hope some of the other packs' artwork is more in line with my personal taste.
FH