I just want to make sure that I am reading the Immunity correctly for the Acid Beetle Swarms in The Whispering Cairn. Are these swarms only able to be damaged by burning torches, weapons with special magic ability modifiers such as fire or frost (only the magic ability damages swarm), a thrown lantern that breaks or a spell that doesn't target a certain number of creatures?
This makes these encounters rather tough considering they also are joined by a madslasher or giant beetle.
Go outside and try to stab an anthill to death with a pocket knife. It doesn't work. With any swarm, the only way to significantly hurt it is to do damage en mass. This means fire, cold, acid, or ... MAGIC. Sometimes the rules of logic do apply to D&D.
--BS
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't think the poster is questioning the logic of the immunity, but rather its effect on play.
The acid beetle swarm is tough. Here are some tips that I learned the hard way:
Remember AoO's: The swarm provokes attacks of opportunity for moving into a space occupied by a PC. If the PC has a torch, the swarm is going to take a beating.
Knowledge Nature: If you feel like it's metagaming to tell your PC's that the swarm is immune to most attacks, but is effect by torches, make sure to allow them to make a knowledge nature check to discover that fact.
Emphasize Lighting: Make sure to emphasize the dark and ask your players what light source they have. Whenever a character w/o a light source or some form of special vision breaks off from the party, ask them how they are seeing. This will make your players think about lighting more and will mean that more of them have torches and lanterns out when they are attacked.
Save for Half: Don't forget to allow the players to save for half the acid damage caused by the beetles.
Earlier Encounters and Alchemist's Fire: A lot of DM's use the house from Dragon magazine as the site of a mini-encounter with a less dangerous swarm. This is also a good location to add some treasure that will be effective against the swarm - like alchemist's fire.
I hope this helps! The swarm is a tough encounter for first level characters, particularly if they don't have alchemical items or a caster, but if the party has fire and you remember the AoO and saves, it should go fine.
The acid beetle swarm is nasty, especially for a first level adventure. Check out the AoW obituaries for a hint at how many deaths are attributed to the little buggers. The cleric in the group I'm DMing was a casualty of these critters and for a brief moment threatened to up-end the entire adventure path. Some Dungeon staffers have hinted that this was a lesson learned on their part and we won't see a repeat of swarms in such a low-level encounter again (or at least not in the next AP or the near future). This is good news, IMO. Still, it doesn't help those experiencing it in the here and now. Just try to muddle through and enjoy this challenging encounter.
BladeSmith, your analogy was a good one (and gave me the willies - I've tangled with a fire ant hill before).
Creative Director
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Yup; this encounter IS really tough, and it helps set the tone for the campaign. Many encountes in Age of Worms reward PCs who work together, plan ahead, and don't rely on the standard "Stab it till it lies still" tactic to combat.
The best ways to combat the acid beetle swarm are with energy attacks. Spells like ray of frost, burning hands, and shocking grasp do well, as does alchemist's fire, torches, and vials of acid.
And keep in mind that while this encounter appears near the start of the dungeon, it isn't necessarilly the first one the PCs have. They could well explore other parts of the tomb before opening this section.
Something of note on this which I have yet to see mentioned on these boards (which is suprising) is that the swarms touch AC is the same as it's standard AC, something even I, as a GM, didn't know about swarms.
When I (as a player) played through the encounter, my GM forgot to allow the save for half against the acid damage, and ruled that I only did splash damage when I missed with my alchemists fire (althought the swarms AC is 17 or 18).
My question is; since the swarm effectively takes up 4 squares, isn't it impossible (unless one rolls a 1 or incredibly low) to miss with a grenade like weapon?
Seems fair to me considering our party started out at 2nd level, was short a party member during this encounter, and I used up all three vials of my alchemists fire forcing a retreat with our unconscious cleric in tow.
-ToA
I don't think the poster is questioning the logic of the immunity, but rather its effect on play.The acid beetle swarm is tough. Here are some tips that I learned the hard way:
Remember AoO's: The swarm provokes attacks of opportunity for moving into a space occupied by a PC. If the PC has a torch, the swarm is going to take a beating.
Knowledge Nature: If you feel like it's metagaming to tell your PC's that the swarm is immune to most attacks, but is effect by torches, make sure to allow them to make a knowledge nature check to discover that fact.
Emphasize Lighting: Make sure to emphasize the dark and ask your players what light source they have. Whenever a character w/o a light source or some form of special vision breaks off from the party, ask them how they are seeing. This will make your players think about lighting more and will mean that more of them have torches and lanterns out when they are attacked.
Save for Half: Don't forget to allow the players to save for half the acid damage caused by the beetles.
Earlier Encounters and Alchemist's Fire: A lot of DM's use the house from Dragon magazine as the site of a mini-encounter with a less dangerous swarm. This is also a good location to add some treasure that will be effective against the swarm - like alchemist's fire.
I hope this helps! The swarm is a tough encounter for first level characters, particularly if they don't have alchemical items or a caster, but if the party has fire and you remember the AoO and saves, it should go fine.
Yes, i wasn't questioning the logic. Just the ability for my party to survive. I am starting the AoW adventure path tomorrow night and the party consists of a Paladin, Rogue, Druid and Ranger/Barbarian. The Ranger/Barbarian hasn't chosen which to start at 1st lvl.
I am definitely considering leaving a stash of alchemist fire at the abadoned mine office. This will give them a fighting chance. Plus all the added tips listed here also. It is gonna be ugly but should also be interesting and also, as Mr. Jacobs stated, they don't necessarily have to encounter the swarm right away in the cairn. They could possibly be 2nd level before ever having to deal with them. Thanks for all the tips everyone.
This should be fun.
Something of note on this which I have yet to see mentioned on these boards (which is suprising) is that the swarms touch AC is the same as it's standard AC, something even I, as a GM, didn't know about swarms.
When I (as a player) played through the encounter, my GM forgot to allow the save for half against the acid damage, and ruled that I only did splash damage when I missed with my alchemists fire (althought the swarms AC is 17 or 18).
My question is; since the swarm effectively takes up 4 squares, isn't it impossible (unless one rolls a 1 or incredibly low) to miss with a grenade like weapon?
Seems fair to me considering our party started out at 2nd level, was short a party member during this encounter, and I used up all three vials of my alchemists fire forcing a retreat with our unconscious cleric in tow.
-ToA
I thought so too, so I had them throw against AC 5 and called it a direct hit (no splash). I think it was ok, the encounter was still scary enough, a single alchemist fire isn't enough anyway. And this party too had to retreat with the cleric unconscious in tow. The characters still mention bugs as their most hated enemy!
I'm DMing 2 groups thru the path- Both are just finishing up with the WC. One group thinks a lot more and the other hacks first and asks questions later.... but both groups came up with this great solution...
They had set off the burning hands trap in the sarcauphagus the day before... and it was lucily reset. As the swarm followed the PCs... they led it to the trap and opened the lid. For the quick thinking on thier parts, I allowed the max damage from the trap to take out the swarms as they were so willing to take the trap damage to take care of the swarm....It just softened them up for the Mad slasher...
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Oh, gods... Round 2 with the swarms for our group was this past Monday, and it went horribly for them.
Background: the group consists of a Fighter-Rogue, a Druid-Barbarian, and a Wizard-Bard. Wouldn't'cha know it, the Wizard-Bard is a specialist Transmuter, and her forbidden schools include Evocation.
Knowing they'd be hard-pressed against the swarms depending on the Druid's spell selection for the day they encountered the nasties, I added a bit to the treasure of the wolf den. I didn't go so far as to "DM-metagame" in some alchemist's fire, but did have the backpack containing the indigo lamp include three clay cannisters of oil and shards of several broken containers.
I described the backpack as "stinking of oil that'd long-since permeated the leather." In game terms, a tomb robber had come prepared with lots of fuel for his exploration of the Cairn and stashed the indigo lamp in the pack with all the oil. Whatever caused his death, his collapse broke many of the containers, which then soaked the backpack. You can include the same thing in your game without anyone feeling it's too strange.
In my notes, it was set burn with light equivalent to a torch for 3 rounds. Anything occupying the same space as it would suffer 1d8 fire damage the first round, 1d3 in the next, and 1 on the last turn before it burned away entirely.
Turns out they didn't need it; the Druid had Produce Flame ready and the Wizard wisely included Lesser Acid Orb (a Conjuration spell) in her repertoire. They sizzled the first swarm in a single round.
Down in the Lair of the Laborers, though... ouch. Their dice betrayed them and they (mis)launched the most spectacularly awful offensive effort I've ever seen in decades of gaming. They rolled 1 afer 1 afer 1 on their damage from several flasks of oil and Acid Splash. They finally did remember the backback when they were desperately thinking of possessions they could burn and toss into the mess--when the swarm had only 1 hp left. It took them SEVEN (!) different attacks and several rounds of the swarm attacking them to whittle away its measly 9 hp.
Be prepared with "remember that your characters can and maybe would flee" if things look dire and your players persist in their determination to destroy the bugs.
Hope you all have fun tonight!
Uhh...don't forget that this is an ACID beetle swarm and that they are IMMUNE to acid. It's pretty much a fire only thing, plus other energy spells.
On a somewhat related note, it's not just the swarms in WC, it's swarms in general that are a pain in the arse. We played through an 18th-level adventure this past weekend and were confronted with a Hellwasp swarm (or something like that). My 18th level Paladin was relegated to running back and forth through the mage's Wall of Fire to try and kill them off.
The irony, of course, is that DM'ed the Whispering Cairn and one of the (1st level) charcters happened to have alchemist's fire so the first swarm was a non-issue.
My group cast sleep on them, after a quick flurry of various rule books I let them. The beetles failed the will save and zzzzzzzzzz. Pour on some oil, add flame and you've got crispy fried beetles.
Now this made sense to me and my players but I've not heard it mentioned. Have we gaffed and there's an obvious paragraph somewhere we have missed? Or does this work as we played it?
Cheers
B
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My group cast sleep on them, after a quick flurry of various rule books I let them. The beetles failed the will save and zzzzzzzzzz. Pour on some oil, add flame and you've got crispy fried beetles.
Now this made sense to me and my players but I've not heard it mentioned. Have we gaffed and there's an obvious paragraph somewhere we have missed? Or does this work as we played it?
Cheers
B
As I read things, this should not have worked because the acid beetle swarm is above all else, vermin. And vermin are mindless amongst other things, which makes them immune to all mind-affecting effects, such as sleep
My group cast sleep on them, after a quick flurry of various rule books I let them. The beetles failed the will save and zzzzzzzzzz. Pour on some oil, add flame and you've got crispy fried beetles.
Now this made sense to me and my players but I've not heard it mentioned. Have we gaffed and there's an obvious paragraph somewhere we have missed? Or does this work as we played it?
Cheers
B
Monster Manual p. 317 Vermin
"-Mindless: No intelligence score, and immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).This includes Sleep (compulsion, mind affecting)
Monster Manual p. 317 Vermin
"-Mindless: No intelligence score, and immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).This includes Sleep (compulsion, mind affecting)
Ahhh, a little more knowledge needed on my behalf. Nevermind will bear this in mind for the future :)
Cheers
B
Not to belabor the point, but even if swarms were (house ruled) to be able to be affected by the sleep spell (such as a hell-wasp swarm since it's "intelligent"), it affects only a number of creatures, which would affect too little of the swarm to have any appreciable effect.
As for acid beetle swarms being immune to acid, I'm 90% sure they are, even though I don't have the stat block right in front of me. Remember, the big ones are squirting streams of acid (if I remember correctly), which would potentially wipe out large portions of their own population if the "babies" weren't immune.
If nothing else, I think this encounter in general and this this creature specifically are a painful reminder to GM's to thoroughly read through pre-written adventures, including moster stat blocks and PARTICULARLY special ability listings (i.e. feats, immunities, etc.)!
This has actually been a growing concern/annoyance of mine, as more and more creatures/NPC's (especially at higher levels) seem to be written with unusual abilities or feats (or PRESTIGE CLASSES) that are from obscure sources and are not even given a reference under their stat. block!
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more flavor and detail (my players would readily attest to that), but I'm not always going to be able to guess what source book to look in.
The silver lining is that at least they don't abreviate prestige class names anymore.
-ToA
PS Something that I mentioned, but didn't spell out in my first post to this thread, primarily in response to James Jacobs post, is that swarms touch AC is the same as their standard AC (in this case 17).
Your arcane casting players might have to find out the hard way, especially with their +0 BAB at 1st level, that hitting with that ray of frost is a lot harder than it looks (I don't even want to think about the attempts made to use shocking grasp...he,he).
-ToA