Advanced Class Guide

[AinvarG]

I remember so many shows where Papa Smurf says, "Not far now!"

[Cheapy]

Hmm, Jason did post a picture on Facebook of a calendar that said 'Jason Bulmahn's Death, 20xx', with the date of next Tuesday...

Maybe it's unrelated.

[Rysky]

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm, Jason did post a picture on Facebook of a calendar that said 'Jason Bulmahn's Death, 20xx', with the date of next Tuesday...

Maybe it's unrelated.

Yeah that's probably just when they're gonna release the armor spikes errata.

[Orthos]

Name Violation wrote:

i actually hope we get more alternate classes to stop "crazy combo" abuse

even if its "a blood rager is an alternate for barbarian and sorcerer" and you cant take levels of either, or make it an alt barabarian with the stipulation it has to be your sorcerer bloodline and levels stack (like a familiar stacks, or how an inquisitor/cleric has to share a domain)

Considering multiclassing is so sub-par in Pathfinder anyway compared to going straight-classed 99.999~% of the time, I'm not exactly sure why this is an issue....

[Marc Radle]

Dragon78 wrote:

I hope this book has some options for white necromancers and the very needed positive energy based spells for the school of necromancy. If I recall there are only 2 positive energy based spells in the school of necromancy and it is very needed niche.

Have you checked out The Expanded White Necromancer from Kobold Press by any chance?

Zark wrote:

Actually a blaster class like the Warlock would be fantastic. The problem with playing a blaster Sorcerer now is that you suck at it until you are level 6 or 7 when you get fireball. And playing a blaster is just as feat intense as an playing an archer or even worse. One of the reasons playing a ‘Pyromaniac' Gnome is very difficult unless you start you campaign from level 3 or 4 or have a powerful party that can back you up until you are powerful enough to stand on you own two feats (pun intended). Also, there aren't really any good low levels blast spells.

Have you checked out The Expanded Battle Scion also from Kobold Press?

[Rysky]

Marc Radle wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

I hope this book has some options for white necromancers and the very needed positive energy based spells for the school of necromancy. If I recall there are only 2 positive energy based spells in the school of necromancy and it is very needed niche.

Have you checked out The Expanded White Necromancer from Kobold Press by any chance?

Zark wrote:

Actually a blaster class like the Warlock would be fantastic. The problem with playing a blaster Sorcerer now is that you suck at it until you are level 6 or 7 when you get fireball. And playing a blaster is just as feat intense as an playing an archer or even worse. One of the reasons playing a ‘Pyromaniac' Gnome is very difficult unless you start you campaign from level 3 or 4 or have a powerful party that can back you up until you are powerful enough to stand on you own two feats (pun intended). Also, there aren't really any good low levels blast spells.

Have you checked out The Expanded Battle Scion also from Kobold Press?

And the 8th class in this book: Poacher!

I kid, I kid :3

[Marc Radle]

This might be my lack of coffee but ... huh?

[Rysky]

Marc Radle wrote:

This might be my lack of coffee but ... huh?

Poaching in this case means to offer your products when someone else is selling theirs, I meant it entirely as a joke.

[Marc Radle]

Ah ... OK, thanks. Funny joke.

[Dragon78]

So what is this running gag about armor spikes?

[DM Beckett]

Paizo ruled that if your hands are occupied, such as through a two handed weapon, you can not use armor spikes (and similar non hand slotted weapons) to attack or threaten with, which basically makes them fairy useless. A common old school tactic is to use a Reach weapon and armor spikes or gauntlet so you can threaten both 5ft and 10ft, and be able to switch up the attacks as needed.

HERE

[Mike Tuholski]

Anyone play LOTRO? I'd like to see a class similar to the Rune Keeper on there. Probably WIS-based caster that can both heal and harm but the more you heal, the better at healing you get and the more you harm the better at harming you get.

In LOTRO, basically if you cast a blast spell all of your healing spells become less powerful and your blast spells become stronger (and vice versa). It allows you to be really versatile for what your party needs. But switching back and forth makes you just mediocre.

It would be an interesting class to play around with. And Rune Keeper would have a lot of flavor, in my opinion.

[dunebugg]

Mike Tuholski wrote:

Anyone play LOTRO? I'd like to see a class similar to the Rune Keeper on there. Probably WIS-based caster that can both heal and harm but the more you heal, the better at healing you get and the more you harm the better at harming you get.

In LOTRO, basically if you cast a blast spell all of your healing spells become less powerful and your blast spells become stronger (and vice versa). It allows you to be really versatile for what your party needs. But switching back and forth makes you just mediocre.

It would be an interesting class to play around with. And Rune Keeper would have a lot of flavor, in my opinion.

See I'd actually be far more interested in some kind of caster hybrid that was the exact opposite. A class that had to find a balance of healing + harm to live to its true potential.

I know I've seen it implemented well before, but can't recall where (video game, card game, board game, idk).

[Ryuko]

Warhammer online had a goblin caster that did that. You worshipped 2 gods and when you used blasty gods spells quite a bit without swapping then Healy god would get jealous so your next Healy spell would be supercharged and vice versa. It was quite fun.

[Mike Tuholski]

dunebugg wrote:

Mike Tuholski wrote:

Anyone play LOTRO? I'd like to see a class similar to the Rune Keeper on there. Probably WIS-based caster that can both heal and harm but the more you heal, the better at healing you get and the more you harm the better at harming you get.

In LOTRO, basically if you cast a blast spell all of your healing spells become less powerful and your blast spells become stronger (and vice versa). It allows you to be really versatile for what your party needs. But switching back and forth makes you just mediocre.

It would be an interesting class to play around with. And Rune Keeper would have a lot of flavor, in my opinion.

See I'd actually be far more interested in some kind of caster hybrid that was the exact opposite. A class that had to find a balance of healing + harm to live to its true potential.

I know I've seen it implemented well before, but can't recall where (video game, card game, board game, idk).

That sounds equally fun, actually. Just some sort of class that can both heal and blast.

[|dvh|]

There was a Druid spec concept in the Pandaria era of WoW where you had a chance to proc buffs to your healing when casting damaging spells, and the opposite as well.

[christos gurd]

Mike Tuholski wrote:

Anyone play LOTRO? I'd like to see a class similar to the Rune Keeper on there. Probably WIS-based caster that can both heal and harm but the more you heal, the better at healing you get and the more you harm the better at harming you get.

In LOTRO, basically if you cast a blast spell all of your healing spells become less powerful and your blast spells become stronger (and vice versa). It allows you to be really versatile for what your party needs. But switching back and forth makes you just mediocre.

It would be an interesting class to play around with. And Rune Keeper would have a lot of flavor, in my opinion.

in the heroes of the east supplement by little red goblin games there was a taoist that had a yin/yang mechanic along those lines.

[zergtitan]

I'm most exited to see the.......(In Order of interest)

1.Slayer and Shaman (looks good and sound interesting)
2.Swashbuckler and Warpriest (not as interested but sounds like a good addition)
3.Hunter and Bloodrager (is not a combo I have interest in)

If the rumor of the Arcainist is correct I would put it between 1 and 2.

[|dvh|]

christos gurd wrote:

in the heroes of the east supplement by little red goblin games there was a taoist that had a yin/yang mechanic along those lines.

That's more than a little tasteless toward Taoism.

[nate lange]

i have nothing of any value to add right now... i'm just commenting so i'll have less comments to scroll through next time i look for an update :)

although... the magus, in a way, is sort of a 20 level version of sort of what an eldritch knight does... it might be interesting if some of the other 4 were in that vein- like maybe a 20 level mystic theurge type that gets a standard amount of spells but combines arcane and divine casting (kind of like a red mage from final fantasy), or a 20 level arcane trickster that makes rogues a viable option (like a 3.X beguiler, only with some game balance).

[Matthew Shelton]

Ashanderai wrote:

Matthew Shelton wrote:

If we suppose that the first six announced classes are "set in stone" and will appear in one form or another, then for three of the remaining classes, it would be interesting to have a CG and LE champion to complement the Paladin and Antipaladin. I derived some of my own homebrew classes and put them up on these messageboards and (IMHO) they were enough differences that they could be treated as more than just variants on a single theme.

For the one remaining "class slot," how about some kind of class based on luck? This is the character concept of the "lucky hero" as someone who manages to survive every situation they find themselves in, no matter the odds, and not by virtue of their innate skills or talents (or perhaps in spite of them). The lucky hero isn't totally inept but the gods seem to clearly favor him without actually claiming him (or he would be a paladin, or cleric, or something like that). A fantasy version of Ferris Beuhler, perhaps, or the character who was just Born Lucky.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BornLucky

Of course, this concept might work as a prestige class too. The lucky hero usually has a day job.

Before anyone else says it: It would probably be really hard to make this class balance well with the other classes, especially if the class gains abilities in of itself that summarily enhance die rolls made by the character. The Lucky Hero would have to be designed to avoid making it game-breakingly absurd for any character NOT to level-dip into it.

It has been done already. You might want to check out the Secrets of the Luckbringer by Rite Publishing.

Why would this prevent Paizo from making their own version? Super Genius Games published their gish class (the Vanguard) about a year before Ultimate Magic came out, but Paizo still included their version (the Magus).

[Cheapy]

I believe that Ashanderai more meant to direct you to an existing take on teh concept that you wanted, so that you could take a look at it.

There's also the Malefactor by TPK Games, which sort of takes that concept to heart.

I personally like that idea of the bard/gunslinger that's luck based. Not sure how you can extend 'you can reroll X' out over 20 levels, but the <X> Inspiration spells are a pretty good idea.

Could even have this be the adventurer type class...Might do it up myself some day.

[Matthew Shelton]

It's a latent concern of mine that this game might be going the way of "class bloat" the way AD&D2 had done, before we had prestige classes.

WOTC originally invented (or you might say rediscovered) PRCs as a method of making multiclass character more specialized, partly to make multiclassing worth the inherent loss of high-end power, and partly to avoid the existence of 1,001 different unofficial classes like AD&D2.

Paizo for their part has consciously integrated the use of PRCs into their flagship setting by mainly focusing on campaign-specific or organization-specific prestige classes (Prophet of Kalistrade, Gray Gardener, Champion of Irori, Lantern Bearer) though there are certainly exceptions (Pit Fighter, Mammoth Rider, Noble Scion) and any decent GM will know how to strip out the Golarion material and substitute his own homebrew matter.

This confinement of prestige classing seems to have led indirectly to the present situation of all these hybrid classes. I can't say it's not entirely a bad thing, but there has to be a stopping point somewhere.

[Joey Virtue]

Is there an ETA for the playtest?

[MMCJawa]

eh...the new classes don't allow multi-classing with the classes they hybridize, which I think should allay some of the class bloat problems.

[Matthew Shelton]

Way back when an old real-time strategy game called Total Annihilation (TA) was still in its heyday, there was a fellow named BSR who thought it was kind of dumb that TA had dozens of different units you could build and fight with, but only a handful of them were any good. Multiplayer games tended to see the same few combat units used. He designed a modification of TA (Uberhack, or UH) which would rebalance all the standard units for both factions and add others in order to improve the system of checks and balances already inherent in the technology tree, and to increase the strategic depth of the game. His principle was to make every unit worth building, but not game breaking; and for every unit to have a specific purpose or a niche that it fills effectively without making any other unit obsolete or redundant outside the accepted bounds of checks and balances.

In Pathfinder, the same ideas can be applied to class design.

Every core/base class should be worth playing, but not so powerful that they can do everything without help from the other classes. Wizards should never have healing magic, Fighters should never be able to construct magic items, Clerics should never have the best offensive spells, and none of them should be able to sneak like a Rogue.

Every core/base class should have a specific purpose or a niche that it fills effectively without making any other core/base class obsolete or redundant outside the accepted bounds of checks and balances. Every class added steps on the toes of another class, or co-opts some of that existing class's niche.

Class synergy is also important. Unit synergy in TA wasn't a big concern; in fact it was the ultimate goal--fighting and dominating a map using a proper mix of forces, tactics, and build strategy. The rules of the game were hard-coded so the ability to innovate completely new weapons or game effects was limited. In Pathfinder, the rules of the game are constrained only by what is legally permitted to be published under the d20 OGL. Class synergies must not break the game, though niche violations as a result of multiclassing are not "as bad" as niche violations within a single class, because there is an inherent surrender of power for versatility for every multiclassed character--as long as it does not render an entire class worthless, in which case it becomes game-breakingly bad. When we look at all the possible archetypes that have been written, it makes it all so much trickier.

All of these new hybrid classes--how are these going to fit together with the classes that already exist? When these other classes reach the same level of archetype support as the older classes, how much trouble will we be in then? :)

[Cheapy]

To a certain extent, the problem with class bloat is that suddenly you have to remember 10s of thousands of class abilities. This has been the main charge against the ACG in this thread: PFS gms not wanting to have to know all these new abilities, but having to to GM properly. Based on what's been released, this has been mitigated to some extent by simply using other class abilities. They are mixtures of two classes, so their abilities are ones you're already familiar with, with one or two new ones. Learning one or two (or rather, 10-20) new abilities is much easier than 150-200 new abilities.

[Starsunder]

Wanna know more about the slayer.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Starsunder wrote:

Wanna know more about the slayer.

Me too, as well as the bloodrager. I also have ideas for an archetype for each, pending actually seeing their mechanics of course.

[SmiloDan]

I recently played in a 3.5 game where the DM was lacking in rules knowledge. He didn't know the rules about Turning Undead, for example, which is pretty basic in 3.5 (although there is a chart--ugh). So I view the cornerns about class bloat and game mastery as valid, especially if it deals with class abilities. It can lead to challenges that are either practically bypassed or swing to TPKs.

That said, I really like having lots of options. I don't play in PFS, so I don't know how it's organized, but maybe have each adventure list a series of source material, or come up with some tiers of coreness. For example, Tier 1 is CRB and Best 1. Tier 2 is CRB, APG, Best 1 and 2. Tier 3 might include UM and UC and Best 3.

[Feros]

AinvarG wrote:

I remember so many shows where Papa Smurf says, "Not far now!"

Is it much farther, Papa Smurf?

[DM Beckett]

SmiloDan wrote:

That said, I really like having lots of options. I don't play in PFS, so I don't know how it's organized, but maybe have each adventure list a series of source material, or come up with some tiers of coreness.

PFS has a massive allowed/disallowed list (found here), which can be an issue in that sometimes the adventures (scenarios), can be easily circumvented by an odd class/race feature, and is often changing. A lot of the scenario do include references and page numbers, but there is a base assumption of what books both players and DMs should need.

[Mikaze]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Starsunder wrote:

Wanna know more about the slayer.

Me too, as well as the bloodrager. I also have ideas for an archetype for each, pending actually seeing their mechanics of course.

While the Bloodrager has me thinking of celestial, verdant, and elemental bloodlines mostly, aberrant bloodragers may already be a thing...

"The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... The hair of his head twisted like the tange of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage.”

—Thomas Kinsella (translator), The Táin, Oxford University Press, 1969, pp. 150–153

Holy $&@!, Ireland.

[Feros]

Mikaze wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Starsunder wrote:

Wanna know more about the slayer.

Me too, as well as the bloodrager. I also have ideas for an archetype for each, pending actually seeing their mechanics of course.

While the Bloodrager has me thinking of celestial, verdant, and elemental bloodlines mostly, aberrant bloodragers may already be a thing...

"The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... The hair of his head twisted like the tange of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage.”

—Thomas Kinsella (translator), The Táin, Oxford University Press, 1969, pp. 150–153

Holy $&@!, Ireland.

Yep, bloodragers exist in literature. Magical berserkers have been part of Celtic and Norse myth forever. The Hunter seems to be a beastmaster class, and the slayer is a not-necessarily-evil assassin. They really are finding the unexplored niches that would have been filled by multi-classing if multi-classing hadn't been out developed in Pathfinder by the core classes.

I'm really looking forward to this! :)

[Cheapy]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Starsunder wrote:

Wanna know more about the slayer.

Me too, as well as the bloodrager. I also have ideas for an archetype for each, pending actually seeing their mechanics of course.

What are your ideas?

[d@ncingNumfar]

I kinda hope we'll see another alchemy class.

[LoreKeeper]

All I want for Christmas is for the ACG playtest to start in the 2nd week of November. :D

[STR Ranger]

Dot.

[AinvarG]

Feros wrote:

Is it much farther, Papa Smurf?

"Not far now!"

[|dvh|]

d@ncingNumfar wrote:

I kinda hope we'll see another alchemy class.

Ditto. I'd kind of like to see an alchemical class whose feature was based around switching out abilities depending on what alchemical treatments one puts on their gear.

[Belnor]

I would like to finally see an Herbalist class. :P

[zergtitan]

Homer Simpson wrote:

Urge to kill, rising....

[Dragon78]

A Healer class that does not get there powers from a divine source. Kinda what the life oracle gets but only knows healing and curative abilities, channels positive energy and lay on hands. Gets only simple weapons, light armor, D8 HD/Cleric BA, and fort as a good save. Also gets the ability to cast healing spells without provoking an attacks of opportunity. Maybe gets immunity to disease and poison and 5th and 11th level. When casting healing/curative spells from wands it uses it's caster level and casting stat. Cha based caster as well and has diplomacy and sense motive as class skills.

["Devil's Advocate"]

Probably is not going to happen with Razmiran and Rahadoum around.

[nate lange]

Dragon78 wrote:

Kinda what the life oracle gets but only knows healing and curative abilities, channels positive energy and lay on hands... Also gets the ability to cast healing spells without provoking an attacks of opportunity.

except for the reduced combat ability (and desire to not be connected to "a divine power source"), i'm pretty sure you're describing a multiclass (or gestalt) paladin/life oracle...

[DM Beckett]

Or a healing Witch.

[SmiloDan]

Maybe if it did more than JUST healing? Maybe a variant on, um, Variant Channeling, where it gives boosts or removes conditions when channeling energy? Definitely a way to use shield other and self-heal extra efficiently, such as swift action lay on hands like a paladin. Maybe a way to get extra uses of channel energy by critting or dropping opponents? Maybe an (almost?) always active version of vampiric touch, and a way to spread those bonus hit points to your allies?

[Cheapy]

There's also a bard archetype that heals, Arcane Healer from Faiths and Philosophies.

[Dragon78]

Well at least this book will have guidelines in making a class so maybe we will have the tools we need to get what we all want.

["Devil's Advocate"]

SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe if it did more than JUST healing? Maybe a variant on, um, Variant Channeling, where it gives boosts or removes conditions when channeling energy? Definitely a way to use shield other and self-heal extra efficiently, such as swift action lay on hands like a paladin. Maybe a way to get extra uses of channel energy by critting or dropping opponents? Maybe an (almost?) always active version of vampiric touch, and a way to spread those bonus hit points to your allies?

I don't know, I'd be extremely irritated if Paizo did this as anything besides a Cleric (and maybe Paladin) archtype/option, personally. Would be kind of like making a firearm based fighting style and then making it only for use by the Monk or Rogue.