Advanced Class Guide

So it's a PFS only playtest?

Man, that sucks.

Anyone can use a playtest. Opening it means that PFS players can use it as well. Usually PFS players are the ones who have to wait to try out new toys.

mdt wrote:

So it's a PFS only playtest?

Man, that sucks.

Anyone can use a playtest. Opening it means that PFS players can use it as well. Usually PFS players are the ones who have to wait to try out new toys.

Still it bites knowing that they think PFS players are their most dedicated fans.

Well, the e-mail did say "some of".

And it's not like there's a better group if they wanted to find all the kinks that could be exploited for cheesetastic power :P

Still it bites knowing that they think PFS players are their most dedicated fans.

I don't think they think that, but they are proven members with heavy involvement in the company's ongoing mission. I didn't get the email as I'm not in PFS but I think it's cool they emailed them.

Well, the e-mail did say "some of".

And it's not like there's a better group if they wanted to find all the kinks that could be exploited for cheesetastic power :P

Enough to pointedly email only them over everyone else who has signed up for their site.

I think the folks who actively participate in the Rules Forum are quite good at finding the kinks heh.

Still though, couldn't they have just updated the blog post? Now I feel bad for quitting PFS because the people who run it near me suck.

ETV on this sentence from the email for PFS players:

and you'll need to incorporate any changes established by the design team or campaign staff during the playtest as well as once the final versions of the class are released in August 2014.

I can see judges saying the following or similar:

"Do you have print offs of all of the updates? I seem to recall (feature X) being adjusted recently. If not, you will not be able to play your playtest character at this table."

Frankly, I wouldn't blame them. It's truly a mixed blessing to have PFS open for playtest material.

Splitting hairs over when the statement of the playtest starting in the fall becomes inaccurate...

It's sillyness like this that makes me smile! ;-)

Oh, and for the third (and traditionally final) time:

Is it much father, Papa Smurf?

And the traditional third response:

"Yes! Yes it is!"

But a little bird tells me I've missed the news and it's not much farther...

I know that in the past, Gary has been wary of sending out emails to anyone who hasn't opted in. From what I recall, that's either

A) PFSers
or
B) People who opt in for marketing e-mails.

Of those groups, one is a bit more likely to be interested. Not everyone who uses Paizo.com tobuy stuff plays PF :)

I hope they make one of the iconics a half-orc. The lack of half-orcs is depressing(besides that one we already have).

They want everyone to participate. the email distribution was not meant as any sort of personal sleight.

I hope they make one of the iconics a half-orc. The lack of half-orcs is depressing(besides that one we already have).

This - I'd also take a kitsune or another gnome!

I don't care that they emailed the PFS members and not me. I'm just happy to have a release date. My inner GM has been hungering for crunch, and now I can keep it at bay.

I don't foresee getting much sleep next week. I have at least 10 new characters to create and advance.

Fairly excited to make an Investigator and a Slayer.

Definitely excited to see how they make the arcanist work and if it will be at all useful in remaking my 3.5 Ultimate Magus. That said: What AP should I run with this?

I'm not a part of PFS and I got the email so... *shrug*

Folks,

I sent a spoiler to PFS folks because they are very dedicated to the game and I wanted to give themsome news to share. It was not intended as a sleight in any way.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

*sigh of relief* You don't know how much it helps me to know when the playtest comes out. Now I will be calm and satisfied until the sun sets on the 19th in which case I hope to be devouring the playtest or going mental if it is not within my grasp.

Also the 8th class looks like a nice addition for players who want to pull a Noir/Sherlock Holmes story and an excellent fit for the sleepless detective.

+1 :)

Hm, I'll be honest, the less classes with sneak attack, which is about the worst main damage ability for martial classes imaginable, the better. So the Investigator is not exactly making me call out in jubilation.

I too don’t like sneak attack. I still don’t get why rogues don’t get quicken feint or some similar ability. Still, the Investigator will maybe get some ability to help him/her with the sneak attack. That said the concept sound cool. I really love Sherlock Holmes character so I’m hoping for new mechanics that lets skill remain useful at higher levels. Even if that don’t happen spells + skills are far more useful than just skills, so this class still looks interesting.

And, I am sure there are many equally dedicated fans who don't play PFS. It was just one of many outlets for us to get news out. I am sure there are others...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

@ Jason: This new book could be the one that beat the APG in popularity. I’m so excited.

I understand, as long as I get news of this secondhand I don't care if you give spoilers to PFS people it's one of the privileges of being a member.

What I think more people are angry about is that they waited for this and it's due date has only been announced to a few. As long as the information like due dates come out to everyone it's all good.

Plus on a similar note some people are not on PFS because they want to do their own game outside the system, but are still dedicated fans of Pathfinder like myself.

Don't worry about it Paizo just know that some of your dedicated fans like to live outside the system, and spoilers like the Investigator belong in the PFS, things like dates for playtest should be announced more publicly as all playtests are made available to the RPG community.

Your devoted and loyal fan,

Sam Buffum
Zergtitan

Man, people will always be mad over such petty things. I'm just glad we have a date for it.

Artificer (Investigator archetype)

End Suggestion (Ex): At 1st level, merely by existing the Artificer automatically and forever puts to an end multiple calls for an Artificer or Engineer Base class. This replaces all calls for an Artificer base class on all messageboard threads within 60 causalities.

At least I hope not...

Nobody wants a mere archetype! They want a full base class!

I for one want a full base class Artificer/Engineer.

It just occurs to me that the resistance Paizo has apparently expressed to an Eberron-style Artificer might lead to this occurence. In the same way that the Synthesist came to overshadow the Summoner in many people's minds, so too could an Artificer Invesitgator archetype.

Or Investigator archetype. I'm not sure what an Invesitgator does. Possibly something with swamps...

And, I am sure there are many equally dedicated fans who don't play PFS. It was just one of many outlets for us to get news out. I am sure there are others...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

You can please some of the people, some of the time....

magnuskn wrote:

Hm, I'll be honest, the less classes with sneak attack, which is about the worst main damage ability for martial classes imaginable, the better. So the Investigator is not exactly making me call out in jubilation.

It worked pretty well for the Vivisectionist :)

Curse you for not updating Amy! Curse you!!!!

Enough to pointedly email only them over everyone else who has signed up for their site.

Emailing everyone who has signed up for their site would probably constitute spam, since not everyone who has ever signed up for this site plays Pathfinder, or *still* plays Pathfinder, or even *ever* played Pathfinder.

(Tons of people, for instance, were registered before there ever was a Pathfinder, back when Paizo ran Dungeon and Dragon, and would have zero interest in some playtest for some game they never transitioned into.)

Many of us who have signed up for PFS, on the other hand, even those, like me, who have never *played* PFS, have invited them to send us email on various subjects, which they, unlike some other companies, don't abuse with weekly or even daily spam.

I too don’t like sneak attack. I still don’t get why rogues don’t get quicken feint or some similar ability. Still, the Investigator will maybe get some ability to help him/her with the sneak attack. That said the concept sound cool. I really love Sherlock Holmes character so I’m hoping for new mechanics that lets skill remain useful at higher levels. Even if that don’t happen spells + skills are far more useful than just skills, so this class still looks interesting.

Having to flank or feint is only one aspect why Sneak Attack sucks. Then there are the additional aspects like damage being determined by random dice, that damage not multiplying on a critical hit, lots of enemies which are simply immune to it and, the "best", the ability simply stopping to work if you are in a semi-dark room or if there is a light ground fog. None of those problems apply to a Barbarians making a simple melee strike, although the last of them might make him miss (which any Sneak Attack user also has to deal with).

But you guys all already knew that. I just feel irritated about more classes who have to deal with all those problems. Sorry for venting.

Scavion wrote:

Enough to pointedly email only them over everyone else who has signed up for their site.

Emailing everyone who has signed up for their site would probably constitute spam, since not everyone who has ever signed up for this site plays Pathfinder, or *still* plays Pathfinder, or even *ever* played Pathfinder.

(Tons of people, for instance, were registered before there ever was a Pathfinder, back when Paizo ran Dungeon and Dragon, and would have zero interest in some playtest for some game they never transitioned into.)

Many of us who have signed up for PFS, on the other hand, even those, like me, who have never *played* PFS, have invited them to send us email on various subjects, which they, unlike some other companies, don't abuse with weekly or even daily spam.

Could have been part of the newsletter email or they could have updated the blog.

Jason said it wasn't intended to be a slight and thats the end of it. I accept his word graciously.

Zark wrote:

I too don’t like sneak attack. I still don’t get why rogues don’t get quicken feint or some similar ability. Still, the Investigator will maybe get some ability to help him/her with the sneak attack. That said the concept sound cool. I really love Sherlock Holmes character so I’m hoping for new mechanics that lets skill remain useful at higher levels. Even if that don’t happen spells + skills are far more useful than just skills, so this class still looks interesting.

Having to flank or feint is only aspect why Sneak Attack sucks. Then there are the additional aspects like damage being determined by random dice, that damage not multiplying on a critical hit, lots of enemies which are simply immune to it and, the "best", the ability simply stopping to work if you are in a semi-dark room or if there is a light ground fog. None of those things make a Barbarians simple melee strike stop to work, although some of them might make him miss (which any Sneak Attack user also has to deal with).

But you guys all already knew that. I just feel irritated about more classes who have to deal with all those problems. Sorry for venting.

I've never found flanking to be difficult, by any stretch of the imagination. Never understood this.

Also, the amount of enemies that are immune are actually few in number. Oozes, elementals, aeons, incorporeal... so unless you are constantly throwing ghost elementals, chances are, you can get sneak attack off against most enemies.

Especially after reading Amazing X-Men #1, I remember how much ich liebe meine Deutsch blau elfe.

I think your grammar is a smidgeon off =)

I want it to be the 19th so badly. One of my players is playing a cleric of Gorum right now and I know he'll probably want to switch to a warpriest and give it a test run.

magnuskn wrote:

Zark wrote:

I too don’t like sneak attack. I still don’t get why rogues don’t get quicken feint or some similar ability. Still, the Investigator will maybe get some ability to help him/her with the sneak attack. That said the concept sound cool. I really love Sherlock Holmes character so I’m hoping for new mechanics that lets skill remain useful at higher levels. Even if that don’t happen spells + skills are far more useful than just skills, so this class still looks interesting.

Having to flank or feint is only aspect why Sneak Attack sucks. Then there are the additional aspects like damage being determined by random dice, that damage not multiplying on a critical hit, lots of enemies which are simply immune to it and, the "best", the ability simply stopping to work if you are in a semi-dark room or if there is a light ground fog. None of those things make a Barbarians simple melee strike stop to work, although some of them might make him miss (which any Sneak Attack user also has to deal with).

But you guys all already knew that. I just feel irritated about more classes who have to deal with all those problems. Sorry for venting.

I've never found flanking to be difficult, by any stretch of the imagination. Never understood this.

Also, the amount of enemies that are immune are actually few in number. Oozes, elementals, aeons, incorporeal... so unless you are constantly throwing ghost elementals, chances are, you can get sneak attack off against most enemies.

Flanking is not as easy as it looks, since it requires to get into position and is dependent on your party members being able to stay there or even help you out. Not all other players are capable of good teamwork.

Immune monsters are one aspect of Sneak Attacks problems, although not the most annoying one. As you pointed out, immune monster types are not the most common ones.

No, the most annoying of Sneak Attack's problems is the concealment issue. If your GM is savvy about lighting rules or likes to use difficult terrain features like fog or anything else which provides 20% concealment or worse, your Sneak Attack user is screwed. Yes, Paizo built in a Rogue talent by now which gets around at least the 20% issue (still screwed at 50%, though) or you "choose" a Darkvision race, but it is an issue which should have never been in the rules in the first place.

And then there are the other issues I've enumerated, which just put the cherry on top of the mountain of suck which is Sneak Attack.

you could always ya know, have a light source on your self.... I mean hell there are spells that permamently make any item a light source.... without a material cost.

Lighting should never be your excuse for not getting sneak attack off.

Immune monsters are one aspect of Sneak Attacks problems, although not the most annoying one. As you pointed out, immune monster types are not the most common ones.

So is that "lots of enemies" or "not the most common ones"?

Or is it just the old "let's hyperbole away hoping that nobody points the hyperbole out?" tactic? :)

you could always ya know, have a light source on your self.... I mean hell there are spells that permamently make any item a light source.... without a material cost.

Lighting should never be your excuse for not getting sneak attack off.

Yes, because sneaking in the dark really benefits from having a constant light source about you. Or, y'know, when preparing to ambush someone.

lantzkev wrote:

you could always ya know, have a light source on your self.... I mean hell there are spells that permamently make any item a light source.... without a material cost.

Lighting should never be your excuse for not getting sneak attack off.

Yes, because sneaking in the dark really benefits from having a constant light source about you. Or, y'know, when preparing to ambush someone.

There's a 30% chance your weapon is that light source past about 4th level, but I think most people (including myself) forget about that most of the time.

lantzkev wrote:

you could always ya know, have a light source on your self.... I mean hell there are spells that permamently make any item a light source.... without a material cost.

Lighting should never be your excuse for not getting sneak attack off.

Yes, because sneaking in the dark really benefits from having a constant light source about you. Or, y'know, when preparing to ambush someone.

This is why you keep your "lit" weapon sheathed until you strike. Sneaking requires planning, it's not something even skilled people do without planning if they want to do it well.

So far all the classes just sound like they already exist as an archetype. When WotC added new classes in 3.5 they were generally very unique (Incarnum, Dragon Shaman, Psionics, Binder, Bo9S). This just seems to want to negate multiclass characters.

So far all the classes just sound like they already exist as an archetype. When WotC added new classes in 3.5 they were generally very unique (Incarnum, Dragon Shaman, Psionics, Binder, Bo9S). This just seems to want to negate multiclass characters.

How does adding more classes negate multiclassing? If anything it gives you more options to multiclass.

Coridan wrote:

So far all the classes just sound like they already exist as an archetype. When WotC added new classes in 3.5 they were generally very unique (Incarnum, Dragon Shaman, Psionics, Binder, Bo9S). This just seems to want to negate multiclass characters.

How does adding more classes negate multiclassing? If anything it gives you more options to multiclass.

Well, sorta. None of these hybrids can multiclass with the classes they're hybrids of.

Besides, what's wrong with killing multiclassing? Something that does what you want out of the box is better than having to mix 2 or 3 things together to get it.

Well, sorta. None of these hybrids can multiclass with the classes they're hybrids of.

Seriously? That sucks some major balor balls.

Besides, what's wrong with killing multiclassing? Something that does what you want out of the box is better than having to mix 2 or 3 things together to get it.

That's like asking "what's wrong with replacing legos with premade toys?".

It's removing one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game for no discernible reason.

You know the interesting thing about playing Baldur's Gate again is that the multi-classes actually operate like hybrid classes, even spellcasty ones. They still remain competitive with their single-class counterparts.

Multiclassing just works terribly for spellcasters, and this makes for a good fix I think. Core Class + Hybrid + Multiclassing + Archetypes + Prestige Class and there's plenty of ways to customize a character from level 1 all the way through level 20.

Quote:

Well, sorta. None of these hybrids can multiclass with the classes they're hybrids of.

Seriously? That sucks some major balor balls.

Quote:

Besides, what's wrong with killing multiclassing? Something that does what you want out of the box is better than having to mix 2 or 3 things together to get it.

That's like asking "what's wrong with replacing legos with premade toys?".

It's removing one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game for no discernible reason.

Well it'd be like some of your legos couldn't connect with some of your other legos.

Adjule wrote:

Int for number of spells, Cha for DCs and such? Or the other way around? I honestly don't know, since the 2 classes have different casting stats.

Maybe it could go Int, as there are only 3 Int-based classes (off the top of my head) and half of the casters in the game go off Cha. Of course, it's late for me and my brain is starting to go into sleep mode.

Yick. 2 casting stats is draconic and would kill my desire to play the Arcanist.

I'd be cool with it being Int or Wisdom.

I feel the designers would have to build something draconian into the Arcanist in order to have even a prayer of balancing their having given the class all the best aspects of prepared and spontaneous casting with none of the drawbacks, plus a new mechanic on top of that.

If lego don't connect with other lego (not even through "join" pieces), they are not lego anymore.

But let me use another analogy: it's like having an MtG card that has "CAN'T BE USED IN THE SAME DECK AS ISLANDS OR FORESTS" on it. While still an MtG card, it could be considered one of the most terribly/lazily designed ones, as it would be going against the basic idea that you can combine everything with everything, just so the designer can afford to be lazy and not deal with the balance.

And then you'd play it with dual/filter lands, and then the designer would throw a tantrum and call you a munchkin and tell you that he obviously meant you can't use it in the same deck as green/blue manasources, but has to deal with unclear language, and you don't know how hard that is you disrespectful minmaxing game breaking sonova...

Err, excuse me I got carried away. Still somewhat excited for the guide.

magnuskn wrote:

lantzkev wrote:

you could always ya know, have a light source on your self.... I mean hell there are spells that permamently make any item a light source.... without a material cost.

Lighting should never be your excuse for not getting sneak attack off.

Yes, because sneaking in the dark really benefits from having a constant light source about you. Or, y'know, when preparing to ambush someone.

This is why you keep your "lit" weapon sheathed until you strike. Sneaking requires planning, it's not something even skilled people do without planning if they want to do it well.

So, you take out your glowing weapon and then you strike your opponent, whom is expected to be still unaware of you at that point? You expect any GM to let that fly?

And, in any case, lighting and sneaking is a cornercase of concealment, because combat usually is a group affair and adventurers tend to bring plenty of light sources to that.

The real problem is the concealment, which can be created by a multitude of effects related to the environment or magic and which unduly screws Sneak Attack users over. Other melee fighters, whom have a by far less fiddly mechanic of dealing damage, have to deal with a 20-50% miss chance, but if they beat that, they deal their full damage. Sneak Attack users have to deal with the miss chance and it robs them of their main damage ability entirely. And on top of that are the other mentioned problems with even getting Sneak Attacks to work.

I can't believe people love to argue so much that this is even in dispute.

When I come up with a concept for a character I see the classes as just another ingredient in the recipe, like feat and spell selection. Sometimes it requires multiclassing to make it work, sometimes it doesn't. I prefer fewer, but more versatile classes as a result. I can make a great swashbuckler with fighter/rogue/duelist.

Is there still room for a few new concepts? Absolutely, but so far none of these are new, save maybe the bloodrager. How about a spell-less bard that focuses on aura effects, a robed 1/2 BAB divine caster, or a non-Asian inspired streetfighting unarmed fighter with monk unarmed damage increases. A Rogue/Enchanter Mesmerist class, or something totally new like Incarnum magic was.

The only two of the eight announced that seem remotely interesting are the Bloodrager and Shaman from what has been revealed so far.