I'm sure someone has asked about this already, but I can't seem to find the answer, so... When do you (Paizo) expect you'll be looking at compiling AP2 into a hardcover for release?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm sure someone has asked about this already, but I can't seem to find the answer, so... When do you (Paizo) expect you'll be looking at compiling AP2 into a hardcover for release?
It will be at least several months to a year after the AP has concluded in the magazine, if we are allowed to do one at all.
--Erik Mona
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The little logo in the upper left-hand corner of the magazines that says "100% Official" means that everything we publish must be approved by the friendly folks over at Wizards of the Coast. The same is true of our hardcover products, which must be proposed and approved before work can begin.
--Erik Mona
Well, I say Paizo scrape up its pennies and buy the D&D product line from Wizards! It can't be all that expensive, right?
The little logo in the upper left-hand corner of the magazines that says "100% Official" means that everything we publish must be approved ...
good luck, dude - i count on Paizo for my Greyhawk content. AoW fits really well into that setting thanks to the efforts of you and your crew.
i appreciate the fence you're straddling due to this - and thank you for trying to get the core rulebooks' default setting supported again.
- peace is for the conquered! -
Mr. Mona,
I have always been partial to the Forgotten Realms setting...until I started reading the AoW material. I am going to be starting a new campaign using the AP and I am going to use the Greyhawk setting. I too would like to see a hardcover at some point, and hope that WotC will allow that to happen. Thanks for taking the time to respond on the boards and for an AWESOME product.
i'm sure that WotC turns down some things that Paizo requests, but i suspect they approve more things than not. i could easily be wrong though. :) i do think i remember that when meeting Erik at gencon he said that WotC is usually pretty cool with most of what he wants to do.
I have always been partial to the Forgotten Realms setting...until I started reading the AoW material. I am going to be starting a new campaign using the AP and I am going to use the Greyhawk setting.
The same goes for me, I started to look into the Greyhawk setting due to AoW and now I'm hooked. If an AoW hardcover is coming then I'm buying.
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It will be at least several months to a year after the AP has concluded in the magazine, if we are allowed to do one at all.
I'm sure it's early to start pitching a wish list for this book, but, since it might not be obvious... Of course the Wormfood articles would make a lot of sense in this book, but also some of the Ecology articles from Dragon that tie directly into the AoW foes would be great to include too!
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An Age of Worms hardcover is as inevitable as Fourth Edition D&D. At least one of these things I will look forward to. Patience will be rewarded here and if the average game progesses as slowly as mine, Prince of Redhand may have started by the release of the hardcover.
Same here. We just finished "Secrets of the Soul Pillars".
Obviously the hardcover will be mine as soon as it hits the shelves (well almost, as my copy will have to cross the ocean).
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I'm sure it's early to start pitching a wish list for this book, but, since it might not be obvious... Of course the Wormfood articles would make a lot of sense in this book, but also some of the Ecology articles from Dragon that tie directly into the AoW foes would be great to include too!
Or, to keep costs comparable to the "Shackled City AP" hardcover--which is on my birthday list!--perhaps a softcover book with Ecologies and "Wormfood" articles called the "Age of Worms Companion"? It could be of interest to players as well as the obvious DMs, and if you put in some new material that relates to the second Adventure Path, it'd be even more attractive to each of those potential buyers.
Drat... now I'm thinking like an RPG marketing-type!
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The volume of material in this Adventure Path is definitely greater than the first one. This will be an issue for a forthcoming hardbound compilation. As some of the adventures need "help" to make them as functional as possible, this too will add to the page count, especially when Worm Food material is added. Similar to the previous poster's suggestion, I would suggest something slightly different: Age of Worms Adventure Path Volume 1 and Volume 2. I would take the first half of the AP and have it self-contained as a complete campaign and have that half focus on the Vaati elements of the AP. After the second return to the Whispering Cairn the campaign could then take off in different directions as per the DM/player's choice. A second AP volume would continue the AP to it's natural culmination AND be presented in a manner to allow 10th+ level PCs to start the game "new".
Sure, a lot of additional work is needed to make this possible but I think a lot of DMs running the AP have already made outstanding fixes to the material. The original authors should make use of us. I find a lot of appeal in a "complete campaign" that starts at 10th level and get's you to 20th. These are at the levels my games tend to falter and fizzle because it took years to get to 10th level on our playing schedule. If DMs want the whole deal, they have two books to buy. Big deal. TSR started the $15/mo D&D book habit years ago and many of us are "trained", even at $35 a book now.
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I would think minimal tweak and rewrites are wise. There are some errors and some "linking" of the advenure issues which could, in hidsight, benefit from some further editorial reflection, but on the whole, this is a few days work - not in the nature of a massive addition.
Lay it out , tweak, revise a little and get it out. No need to waste large amounts 'o dough on labour. The risk for the product is in its size at about 600 pages and cost. No need to increase that risk with more labour costs.
Release at Gencon 2007 for extra money on the direct sales to cover most of the costs of the print run and offer a 20% off to those who order direct on the web site who also buy a Dungeon or Dragon subscription at the same time. That should about do it. Hopefully, the sales will be good enough to make money and at the same time those marketing steps thould minimize the risk if the book tanks due to high cost.
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Creative Director
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I would think minimal tweak and rewrites are wise. There are some errors and some "linking" of the advenure issues which could, in hidsight, benefit from some further editorial reflection, but on the whole, this is a few days work - not in the nature of a massive addition.
Lay it out , tweak, revise a little and get it out. No need to waste large amounts 'o dough on labour. The risk for the product is in its size at about 600 pages and cost. No need to increase that risk with more labour costs.
Release at Gencon 2007 for extra money on the direct sales to cover most of the costs of the print run and offer a 20% off to those who order direct on the web site who also buy a Dungeon or Dragon subscription at the same time. That should about do it. Hopefully, the sales will be good enough to make money and at the same time those marketing steps thould minimize the risk if the book tanks due to high cost.
Actually... even if all we did was fix errors and shore up the links between the adventures... that's hardly a "few day's work." Keep in mind that we also need to strip out redundant material, have some errors in artwork and maps corrected (and in some cases order art and maps we weren't able to afford the first time around), and add in some elements that are missing from the adventures (such as a stronger intro and conclusion to "Three Faces of Evil" or more information on the Free City).
It'll certainly be a lot less work than Shackled City was, but neither will it be a quick job. And of course, we can't do anything until we get approval from WotC.
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Actually... even if all we did was fix errors and shore up the links between the adventures... that's hardly a "few day's work."
You need to work faster *wizz-crack*
Point made. My point was simply that with the vast amount of work done and the risk such a large book has in terms of success in the marketplace, it seems unwise to ratchet the production cost of it up substantially.
So.. not a "lot" of work. (And you define how much a "lot" means).
While I think an Age of Worms hardcover would be cool, I'm wondering how well it would sell. Last post I remember on the new Shackled City hardcover, sales had not brought it "in the black." And this is for an adventure path that was spaced out over twenty issues or so. Those of us who missed the beginning and thought about buying back issues to cover it found a few of those back issues sold out, but this time we heard about AoW in advance and got subscribed to Dungeon to get the new AP.
Since AoW *is* really cool, we got hooked into starting it sooner rather than later. We'll already be halfway done at least by the time the hardcover comes out (because we skipped right over SCAP), and thus we're not too likely to spring for that $50-$70 hardcover. I've thought about getting the SCAP hardbound--it might be useful for a future campaign at some indefinite point in the future. But by that time, we'll be on 4th edition, and I'll have to update a ton of stuff or be one of those guys who keeps playing the edition he likes ten years after its been phased out. I'd rather spring for SCAP than for my umpteenth and umpty-first WotC supplements filled with PrC's and other cheese-whiz, but I probably wouldn't spring for the AoW hardcover, at least not two years from now, when I've already played 2/3 of the campaign and worked out my own solutions to the errors and omissions.
Not to throw cold water on the whole thing--I'm sure the Paizo guys have a much better handle on the economics of this than I do, but I do think that a) if the SCAP hardcover didn't sell that well and b) if the marketing of this AP has reduced the likelihood of selling an AoW hardcover (through carryover excitement from SCAP, good publicity, and the effect of publishing one "chapter" a month resulting in a larger number of people with complete sets of AoW through the magazine), then it wouldn't seem like a good business risk to me. Of course, the Greyhawk nostalgia factor is a wild card here--if WotC doesn't support GH but is willing to let Paizo do so under "official" guise, then maybe the word gets out among non-subscribing GH fans who then proceed to buy a bunch of these things. But $50-70 is definitely at the high end for the comic/gamer store market too (a factor in SCAP hardcover's lack of robust sales, as I recall)--it's hard for the shop owner to buy many of these because people generally don't drop that much on a single purchase at such places. So the hardcore fans will buy it online, but the comic stores won't buy it, and the product will lose money anyhow.
(Sorry for the pessimistic analysis here--I'm sure my tightwad Scottish ancestry is showing through here. And I'll save my WotC learned marketing from Intel and Microsoft rant for another forum.)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Last post I remember on the new Shackled City hardcover, sales had not brought it "in the black."
Initial sales of the book were less than we'd hoped for, but it has been a remarkably reliable seller and is now very much in the black and chugging (profitably) through its print run.
--Erik Mona
Initial sales of the book were less than we'd hoped for, but it has been a remarkably reliable seller and is now very much in the black and chugging (profitably) through its print run.
Very nice, I'm pleased to hear that. It's a great product.
The risk for the product is in its size at about 600 pages and cost.
I don't see how it could get anywhere near 600 pages. The adventures aren't that long, and neither are the Wormfood articles. Subtract out the page count for advertising, add in the Overload (all 28 pages), and I still think you would be in the 300-400 page range. Just my opinion - I don't have the mags in front of me at the moment.
I am interested in buying the AoW hardcover whatever the cost. I would even cash in my retirement savings to do so. Just dont tell my wife.
Utak
I'm with Utak, whatever it costs!
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As I would like to have the Wormfood articles and the Overload file in the hardcover as well, I think this would make it too big. Therefore - BRING BACK THE GOOD OLD BOXED-SET.
That would be a blast - an AGE OF WORMS BOXED SET, with handouts, floorplans for mini's use and so on...I would pay a small fortune for such a thing (but not too much... ;)
Uuuuuhhhh, I fear this will remain wishful thinking...
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Shackled City AP was a huge book and most of it took place in the same city. Considering that the Age of Worms brings PC's from Diamond Lake to Greyhawk to the Amedio Jungle to Redhand and finally to the Wormcrawl Fissure, I don't see how it could possibly be published in one book, especially if you include the Wormfood articles. I can think of a few neat possibilities (any of which I would eagerly purchase) for the wonderful folks at Paizo:
1) A boxed set. If it came out with the Greyhawk logo, I imagine several 1st and 2nd edition enthusiasts would finally convert.
2) Multiple books. Perhaps a Player's guide to AoW (including the Wormfood articles, new feats and prestige classes, info on Diamond Lake) or a Campaign book with backdrops on different cities such as Alhaster, Diamond Lake, and Greyhawk. And finally the Adventure book itself.
3) Simply publishing volumes 1 & 2. While I prefer the previous 2 options, compiling the AoW into 2 separate volumes remains a better option for me than trying to put everything into one book and losing out on a lot of material.
The point I'm trying to make is that while I don't see the point in purchasing a product that is simply a compilation of 12 issues of Dungeon + errata, I'll eagerly buy the AoW if it has something new to make it worthwhile.
Last post I remember on the new Shackled City hardcover, sales had not brought it "in the black."Initial sales of the book were less than we'd hoped for, but it has been a remarkably reliable seller and is now very much in the black and chugging (profitably) through its print run.
--Erik Mona
I'd suspect that it might remain a good seller for years to come. A well done 'campaign in a book' always has appeal for DMs with a time crunch and none of us are getting any younger. I'd not be shocked if you just kept moving them slowly but steadyly out the door even some years from now.
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The risk for the product is in its size at about 600 pages and cost.I don't see how it could get anywhere near 600 pages. The adventures aren't that long, and neither are the Wormfood articles. Subtract out the page count for advertising, add in the Overload (all 28 pages), and I still think you would be in the 300-400 page range. Just my opinion - I don't have the mags in front of me at the moment.
I think if you count up the Overload, Wormfood articles, the two applicable Ecology articles, conversion notes from the Online supplements, backdrops and the pages in the modules themeselves so far, two-thirds the way through, you'll find the page count at about 410 or so.
So yeah, ca. 600.
I also think one book would get just too big. I haven´t done a page count recently, but I think it would be 500 - 600 pages.
So, two books - one with the adventures and one with stats, maps, handouts and background informations - could do the trick. It would be easy to use if these parts are separated rather than in in one book - no more flipping to find the stats you need just now. But please no more perforated maps glued to the book, like IIRC "Slavers" or "Scarlet Brotherhood" had - I could not get them out the books without damaging them. I hate it if my books or maps are damaged.
A box would do nicely, too. It would even be easier to separate the parts of my proposed second book inside the box, but I remember dimly that boxes are "out of fashion" for some reason - maybe the cost to produce is even higher and they need to be assembled at some point, where errors may occur.
Stefan
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I have to take a second not to laugh here...you guys are saying 500 pages is too big a book....take a look at monte cook's website and look at his ptolus campaign that comes out in august...right now the page count is in the neighborhood of 670 pages...weights in about 6 lbs and is about the size of a typical encycolpedia britnica (sp?) Granted its also around $110 for it. But my point is a book of 500 pages isn't 'TOO BIG'..it is easy doable.
Tallknight
It surely can be done technically. But I don´t want to handle a 6 lbs monster every time I´m just looking for some - any - information while at the gaming table. Several smaller books would be more convenient to handle.
And if you have two books, you can split the cost for them on two months or so. 110 $ is quite a call.
Stefan
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As I would like to have the Wormfood articles and the Overload file in the hardcover as well, I think this would make it too big. Therefore - BRING BACK THE GOOD OLD BOXED-SET.
That would be a blast - an AGE OF WORMS BOXED SET, with handouts, floorplans for mini's use and so on...I would pay a small fortune for such a thing (but not too much... ;)Uuuuuhhhh, I fear this will remain wishful thinking...
A boxed set with a player's booklet and a DM handbook, handouts and maps/tiles for use with minis? Drooling at the thought...
Count me in. Now&forever. Twice.
Another strong vote for a boxed set. I don't care about faux-leather bindings - I want content!
A boxed set would indeed be wonderul.
All the fold out maps neatly packed inside with promo WotC Minis of Balabar Smenk, the Faceless One and of course Kyuss...
Then a separate leaflet with all the Kyuss monsters and background info on the cult.
Ah.... It's good to be dreaming... ;-)
Bocklin
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Boxed set vs a Hardcover? I'll take the hardcover thanks.
I don't think 600 pages is "too big". I do think, however, that it will be "quite expensive". SCAP is sold lcally in Toronto for about $68-$76CDN right now. That's about $15-20 more than the Game of Thrones hardcover that appears significantly larger on the shelf beside it. From anecdotal discussion in my FLGS's, it has sold slowly because of its price.
The price difference for the Dragon Compendium is similarly large in relation to the "competition", and is about $15 more than a similarly sized WotC hardcover. Though that does not seem to matter much as it is selling extremely well in local stores.
AoW is not quite World's Largest Dungeon size - but 600 pp. is big.
If AoW hardcover has a few unpublished goodies in it - I will probably get it. Being a subscriber who has purchaed all Dungeon and gone out of my way to get Dragon just because of Wormfood, I don't suppose I am the primary market for the book. I expect fellow ENWorlders who have expressed a desire to wait and have it all in one book are the more likely puchasers.
Whatever the case, I have never had more fun with Dungeon - or Dragon - magazine than with AoW. For that reason alone - never mind the damn hardcover - this AP series has been a complete success as far as I am concerned.
A boxed set would indeed be wonderul.
All the fold out maps neatly packed inside with promo WotC Minis of Balabar Smenk, the Faceless One and of course Kyuss...
Then a separate leaflet with all the Kyuss monsters and background info on the cult.
Ah.... It's good to be dreaming... ;-)
Bocklin
I'm with the Bock!
My choice and dollars would also go to a boxed set, especially if the maps and stat blocks were in seperate booklets, as I hate page flipping. I would pay $10-$20 extra, gladly, for such a convenience.
I'm with the Bock!
Sounds strange, first time I am called that! Happy we agree though. ;-)
Having tried to use the SCAP Hardcover "live" really convinced me that a boxed set would be better. Flipping between the glossy pages to jump from the monsters I don't have in another book (e.g. anything from Fiend Folio), the maps and the room description was the death of my fingers. I then did some photocopies, but I hated pressing the book like that on the xerox...
Bocklin
I'm with the Bock!Sounds strange, first time I am called that! Happy we agree though. ;-)
Having tried to use the SCAP Hardcover "live" really convinced me that a boxed set would be better. Flipping between the glossy pages to jump from the monsters I don't have in another book (e.g. anything from Fiend Folio), the maps and the room description was the death of my fingers. I then did some photocopies, but I hated pressing the book like that on the xerox...
Bocklin
How about stat cards that you can tear out from the back of a hardcover book. I end up writing the esstential stuff on 3x5 cards anyhow so I can avoid the page flipping things, and makes init easy to handle.
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Creative Director
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A boxed set would indeed be awesome.
Both in usefulness and in price.
People balked at a $60 price tag for a hardcover book, so I can only assume there'd be a torch-bearing mob marching on our office if we did Age of Worms as a boxed set priced so that we'd come out the other side profitable.
Pure speculation on my part but I would imagine the AoW hard cover would sell much better than SCAP. If for no other reason then you have better name recognition and people who are actually waiting for it to become a reality.
If the concern is to not water down subscriptions and renewals why not offer some sort of renewal/subscription bonus...
Preorder AoW hardcover and receive 12-month subscription for 20 bucks or some such.
Just a thought.
People balked at a $60 price tag for a hardcover book
I am still collecting aluminum cans to buy that book, but it is still cheaper than buying the back issues. That plus the content all being updated to 3.5 and the bonus material makes it worth it.
Now excuse me while I resume my patrol of dumpsters.
Well, I say Paizo scrape up its pennies and buy the D&D product line from Wizards! It can't be all that expensive, right?
I'll chip in :)
Long live Greyhawk! Liberate Mordenkainen from the evil clutches of WotC!
Jack
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Actually I suspect it has more to do the with paper pushing/gluesniffers at Hasbro and their uppity ups than with WoTC.....I sure if it was JUST WoTC things wouldn't be nearly as convoluted in the business. Like decideding to only do book support for FR and hardly put out any adventures. (yes, I know FR has city of the spider queen (a 3.0 mega adventure) and recently sons of grummish (a quick 3.5 ok adventure that can /should be tweaked)) but I hardly think a few adventures in as many or more years supporting the line. I knew adventures aren't as profitable as rulebooks but then they need to open and let someone else make offical adventures for FR that they apporove or something....I'd personally like to see several FR adventures a year. And I know Greyhawk fans would love to see a smaller company come in a put on several quality adventures a year set in greyhawk, and approved/stamped by WoTC.
I know Dragon and Dungeon are 100% offical...unless you need support for a rules question, then WoTC tells you to get rules support from Paizo and by necessaity a lot of the adventures in Dungeon are usually campaign neutral (and not too many are FR specific)
anyway...off my rant box....I really want to see this AoW AP as a Hardcover or a boxed set....
Tallknight
A boxed set would indeed be awesome.
People balked at a $60 price tag for a hardcover book, so I can only assume there'd be a torch-bearing mob marching on our office if we did Age of Worms as a boxed set priced so that we'd come out the other side profitable.
I would be concerned if no-one were playing the SCAP. I'm sure that most of the groups that have played and enjoyed the SCAP will be "return customers".
Our gaming group are only two gamenights into the SCAP, but really-really liking it and I'm sure that when we're through, we'll remember this as one of the very best campaigns.
We'll surely want to repeat that experience with AoW (no matter what pricetag you guys put on the product).
Here's one vote for a boxed set with a the hardbound adventure, map booklet, encounter booklet, player booklet and extra stuff such as a cdrom with art and "un-numbered maps" and perhaps a map poster for the wall.
The price tag on both SCAP and a box with AoW might be a bit high for "impulse-buyers", but absolutely not for gamers that actually play thrugh the adventures.
/ Henning
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A boxed set would indeed be awesome.
Both in usefulness and in price.
People balked at a $60 price tag for a hardcover book, so I can only assume there'd be a torch-bearing mob marching on our office if we did Age of Worms as a boxed set priced so that we'd come out the other side profitable.
Well, if you (kind people of the Paizo tribe!) can manage to print a standard hardcover edition, and a small run of deluxe-full-course boxed set, we'll be in a win-win situation.
Sort of a "AoW: the director's cut".Of course I'll take the box, to be on the safe side.