Recently, a dialogue has started in the letters column of Dragon and Dungeon (a conversation that crops up every few years anew) concerning why so few females are involved in this hobby.
Moreover, the most recent of these letters in the most recent issue of Dungeon (#129) even discusses some of the reasons and possible solutions, which is, at least a step in the right direction.
However, I ask everyone to pick up their copy of 129 and after reading that letter, look at the facing page. An add for PBM games that shows the worst stereotype of a male gamer as someone who is a drooling idiot who responds not to reason but to a hair twirl and breasts. Consider what stereotype it's sending to female readers.
Of course, this is only one symptom of the problem. As I've just gotten my Underdark D&D miniatures I was very, very upset to see that the first fan created mini in the game, the first opportunity for a fan to make their mark on the game is a scantily clad woman who falls well within the realm of the Chix-n'-Chainmail school of fantasy. I mean, she's an angel in a halter top and bikini panties. Doesn't the man who designed this figure have a PhD? Really. . .
I for one, am not at all surprised women are turned off by our hobby in general, I know women who play, and women who would play except for the general population of most games.
You want more women to be involved, well, treat them as a group of gamers, not just "Girl-gamers" and cater to them the same as you would anyone else.
Michael Morrison
I too thought it was ironic that after reading that letter in #129 that the ad on the opposite page was sexist.
... As I've just gotten my Underdark D&D miniatures I was very, very upset to see that the first fan created mini in the game, the first opportunity for a fan to make their mark on the game is a scantily clad woman who falls well within the realm of the Chix-n'-Chainmail school of fantasy. I mean, she's an angel in a halter top and bikini panties. Doesn't the man who designed this figure have a PhD? Really...
Don't hate, appreciate! ;-)
I'm working on my Ph.D., and I'll readily admit that the medieval "Victoria's Secret" Angel is the first mini I bought. In the game, it's not padding - it's divine uplift! ;-)
Seriously though, it's an entrenched part of the milieu. And there's no reason that women - or gay men, for that matter - can't (or shouldn't) do the same thing with muscled warrior type images. Boris Vallejo and other artists rely on it, for both sexes.
Everyone, male or female, GED or Ph.D., fantasizes about things that are probably unavailable to them in real life. Hence: fantasy game.
My girlfriend said it best: it's not about the imagery, it's about the attitude of the players at the gaming table. If you want anyone to be welcome, don't concentrate on having politically correct iconography - just make the person feel welcome. If you have a player, don't treat them as a "female" player, a "gay" player, or whatever... just treat them as you would any other player. Cater to their interests, and the strengths of the character they've chosen to play.
Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.
You might as well ask why more men don't knit.
Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.
Er... maybe at some peoples' houses. Certainly not all. Throughout college, and even now in grad school, we regularly have women gamers at our tables.
You might as well ask why more men don't knit.
Doesn't seem like a good analogy to me... most of the women I know don't know how to knit.
I've noticed all of this before (and as you've said, this discussion crops up anew every few years). I think it's interesting, however, that in my experience the majority of female gamers are playing stuff like White Wolf. I think that there are other things that turn women off to D&D. For one, there's the nitpicky attention paid to movement rules, excessive amounts of time spent in battle/dungeon crawls, and in the published material (at least in my opinion) there is a tendency to lack real story depth/personal involvement in the reality of your characters. For the most part from simply reading the books (and talking to a lot of players) D&D is a fantastic escape for kids with no friends who want to make themselves feel better by living vicariously through their 14th level fighter and bickering with their friends over combat rules. This is just a different demographic, in essence, than the people playing White Wolf. Vampire is advertised as a "personal" game. Right there, I think is a difference.
Now granted, this doesn't mean that women aren't into D&D at all and that these are the reasons. It could very well be the inherent objectification of women and/or sexism that appears in the non-WotC material (WotC and Paizo have both been excellent about that in their OWN material, IMO).
During World Wide D&D Game Day, I had a group of five friends show up to play, and three of them were women. Granted, they were the only three female gamers out of the 30 or so people that showed up, but out of that one group, they were the majority.
In each of my campaigns since 3rd edition came out I've had at least one girl gamer in the group. My last one just moved, and I've been actively seeking for one or two to join. I've almost convinced my wife to dust off her dice, but she's not sure how well it would go if one of us wasn't watching our kids during the game.
Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.
I'm hoping this is sarcasm.
Er... maybe at some peoples' houses. Certainly not all. Throughout college, and even now in grad school, we regularly have women gamers at our tables.
The only time there wasn't another female at our gaming table was maybe a three month period. There was always somebody else besides myself.
You might as well ask why more men don't knit.
Doesn't seem like a good analogy to me... most of the women I know don't know how to knit.
Heh. I don't know how to knit, sew, or otherwise avail myself of traditionally feminine crafts. I can cook though.
Sigh. I do wish more women would get into the game, though. Just to end this argument, for one, and to be creative and socialize in a fun, positive, and undemeaning way.
On a side note, I did have the privilege of being a co-DM for a group of middle-school aged boys in a "D&D club" at one of the middle schools. After the initial shock of learning that there was a girl who could DM (yep, I was the only one), everything went really well. Even got a couple girls interested in it, too. Point is, once the boys learned that I showed genuine interest in gaming, they felt more comfortable around me and the idea of having a girl in "their game."
I think the more "open" everybody makes themselves (both guys & gals), the better the gaming community as a whole will be.
My group is certainly an exception to the norm, but I run the SCAP with a group of five; all women. My wife and four of her friends from highschool, all of whom were playing D&D years before I was, are a great group of players and they invest a great deal of time and thought in their characters. D&D can focus as much or as little on character development and roleplaying as the players and DM are willing to allow. Sure, there are plenty of nitty-gritty details involved, but in our game that stuff is for ME, the DM, to worry about. They tell me what they want their characters to do, I translate that into the mechanics, and have them role the dice. In all honesty, I think the reason that female D&D players tend to be a minority is because it often comes across a strange sort of fantasy-based men's club. As has been stated numerously and wisely in this post - if you treat someone at your gaming table as a player, and not just a "girl/gay/young/whatever" gamer, they'll truly feel welcome and enjoy it all the more.
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First of all, the new miniature you are speaking of, Rikka, Angelic Avenger, was not actually designed by Brian Mackey (and, yes, he has a PhD in Child Psycology), last year's Minatures Champion. He worked with R&D on the stats, but the majority of the actual design came from Brian's wife. The mini was based on one of her characters, and she served as the model for the scuplt. So it is inaccurate to claim this is an example of gaming fanboy prurience.
Second, a female player is at least as likely to want her character portrayed as a voluptuous woman in scanty clothes as a guy is likely to want his character protrayed as a muscle-chiseled, shirtless barbarian. D&D is a fantasy game, so we want our characters to be fantasy images of ourselves. And that includes tight abbs, firm butts, attractive cleavage and blemishless skin. In fact, I have seen girls flat out refuse to play a character because it was ugly. I have never seen a guy do that.
Finally, lack of female gamers hasn't been a problem for my gaming group for many years. Our group has maintained at 40-60% population of females for over a decade.
In fact, I have seen girls flat out refuse to play a character because it was ugly. I have never seen a guy do that.
Actually, I have that problem with both genders around my gaming table. No one will play a character they think is "ugly." This includes dwarves, goblinoids, lizardfolk, kobolds, gnomes... for some reason none can think of any of these as playable characters.
Oh yeah, and that ad in #129 was the most ironic thing ever. I think my left eyebrow almost hit the ceiling.
My gaming group consists of 4 females and 3 males, so this issue strangely never comes up. The females in my group can hold their own with any sexist, unwashed dork out there, and probably embarass him out of his shoes with their own crude comments.
I think everyone is jumping on Yamo too quickly. He has a point- the reason many women don't play is the social stigma attached to being a gamer that many women want to avoid. The analogy works because he is comparing it to why men don't do something with a similar social stigma attached to it as being feminine.
The truth is, the fact that, sadly, 50-75 percent of gamers or goofy or dorky does not make them the most attracitve group to join, for males or females. The dork stereotype is not unearned. When you consider that most people begin gaming in their teens, and the fact that teen females, more than teen males, are concerned with appearances (not their fault, an effect of social conditioning)it is simple and plain why they are less likely to play. Guys with similar social status, such as "dork," "jock," "stoner," etc., tend to group, meaning more males come in.
I think another problem for females joining is the female gamer stereotypes. Most guys think women are overly into roleplaying and background, and think too much. In my experience male and female gameplay is not that much different. This stereotype means most men expect the first lady at the table to kick their asses at RPing, and that is an unrealistic and unfair expectation for anyone.
Furthermore, the very themes and realities of the game are, on the overall, unattractive to many women. In our society (speaking as an American), young girls are often taught to think of appearances, to please others, and to do "girly" things. When you have been conditioned to act in this way your whole life, you are unlikely to venture into things that "boys do." Compare gaming with contact sports, cars, computers, and the like. Because girls are condtioned to not be into those things, they are less likely to do them.
And as with those things, there are exceptions, girls who grew into women that realized they can do whatever they please, despite societal expectations.
The basic problem is that gaming, as a hobby, does not fall within what girls are taught to like, and that the appeal of combat and problem solving is greater amongst males who it is expected of.
Women can play D&D, no doubt, and I think they provide a vital need in the game: realisitc females. So many women in RPGS are either overbearing nags, slutty wenches or distant nobles. Having women involved means we can get women represented as they are: people with as much variation and flavor as a male.
What you can do is teach young girls you know to play, or try to involve women who you think might get a kick out of it. You may be surprised. This open, invitational environment will bring in more women. But don't expect it to kick up the percentage too high.
/rant off.
Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.Er... maybe at some peoples' houses. Certainly not all. Throughout college, and even now in grad school, we regularly have women gamers at our tables.
You might as well ask why more men don't knit.Doesn't seem like a good analogy to me... most of the women I know don't know how to knit.
Most men I know don't roleplaying.
Besides, we're talking about rules here, not exceptions. Of course some women roleplay. Or course some me knit. But there is a reason that you see certain hobbies dominated by a factor of about 10-1 by a single gender and that reason is that society as a whole has formed somewhat of an informal consensus on which activities are suitable for which genders. It's contradicting a lot of current anthropology, sociology and psychology to maintain that these sorts of social factors are anything less than extremely powerful shapers of human behavior.
Anecdotal evidence only to be sure, and I don't suppose a scientific study of the subject is possible:
My wife likes to play rogues because they can backstab....now they can sneak attack. Role-playing? Sure, just as long as she can sneak attack and backstab. Her ranger character is one of her favorites because of the two-weapon fighting. Her scout character in my SCAP campaign has mobility and spring attack, so she can use her 10' move skirmish bonus to kill, kill, kill.....
My sister in - law plays a multi-class fighter rogue. She started taking levels in rogue because she got jealous of my wife's character backstabbing people and the idea of sneak atacking people with her two-bladed axe really appealed to her.
My friend Tina always played fighters....now she's playing a ranger with archery as her weapon skill because she enjoys pin cushioning her enemies as quickly as possible. She spends hours when levelling up her character because she wants to ensure she squeezes the biggest combat bonuses out of the rules. She's probably the biggest power gamer in my group.
My friend Rebecca started playing a scout because she figured out it was a quick way to the assassin prestige class.....
Maybe my gaming group is on one end of the bell curve...maybe the average female gamer really WANTS to "role-play" all the time and spends inordinate amounts of game time shopping and buying courtier's outfits...but I don't think some of you are giving women gamers enough credit.
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I think everyone is jumping on Yamo too quickly. He has a point- the reason many women don't play is the social stigma attached to being a gamer that many women want to avoid. The analogy works because he is comparing it to why men don't do something with a similar social stigma attached to it as being feminine.
I think you are correct that it is a social stigma issue. But the primary implication of the original post was that the problem was the sexist nature of the classic "chainmail bikini warrior." Personally, while I know this stereotype annoys girls, I don't think it prevents them from playing. Such stereotypes appear practically everywhere in advertising. It is a problem inherent in our entire society. To label it a D&D problem is rather obtuse. In fact, because it is so ingrained in our existing society, I think this particular stereotype probably stops less girls from playing than the nerd stereotype prevents guys from playing.
Having talked to quite a few girl gamers, I know several of them had a hard time getting into D&D. The biggest problem is, even though they knew guys who played it and tried to drop hints they were interested, they were never asked. Why? Well, this goes back to sexism, but not in the obvious way of "I don't want girls in the game." Basically, guys, especially ones without a lot of experience with girls, just don't think girls would be interested. So they never ask.
It isn't just that the social stigma may keep girls from trying D&D, but that the assumption of the social stigma from guys keeps them from inviting girls.
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...the majority of female gamers are playing stuff like White Wolf. I think that there are other things that turn women off to D&D. For one, there's the nitpicky attention paid to movement rules, excessive amounts of time spent in battle/dungeon crawls, and in the published material (at least in my opinion) there is a tendency to lack real story depth/personal involvement...this is just a different demographic, in essence, than the people playing White Wolf. Vampire is advertised as a "personal" game...
I have noticed this as well. I have a player who hated D&D because of all the rules. She was much more into the story and characterizations, probably because of her LARP/White Wolf background. Only after playing in a story-driven D&D game did she rethink her opinion and drop her guard enough to realize the rules aren't as intimidating as she allowed herself to think.
The RSI ad is hideous. All of them have been hideous. My better half loves to rip them apart for their obnoxious stereotypes. Then again, the ads are brilliant because they are so hideous. It's akin to most beer commercials...
...I think that there are other things that turn women off to D&D. For one, there's the nitpicky attention paid to movement rules, excessive amounts of time spent in battle/dungeon crawls...
D&D is more like a traditional wargame than ever before -- it's now very difficult to separate that quality out when combat starts; historically, women aren't hugely into such games (sure, exceptions abound, but it's still typically true).
I think the direction D&D has evolved (more and more roll-playing oriented rather than roleplaying-centered) hurts efforts to get beyond its male-dominated market.
As a previous poster suggested, White Wolf's system is diametrically opposed -- the dice-rolling mechanics are quite flexible and vaguely-defined, while social interaction dominates.
Just my two cents,
Jack
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Concider this: I am a professional costume designer. That's right, as in sewing and stuff. I particularly enjoy making corsets and frilly dresses. I can't even count the number of times that i have recieved the same response when i tell someone what I do for a living. It goes something like "..but -but , you're ....STRAIT!!??!!!"
My point is this: Just because something is concidered a "guy" thing or a "girl" thing it is stupid to let that be concidered truth. Gaming is just one example of that stereotyping.
Personally, I prefer the roleplaying aspects of gaming more than the mechanics and if female gamers were not made out to feel like a freak at sideshow when they showed up, there would be a lot more of them. I envy these other posts that say they have females in their group. I have only had that experience a couple time in the 15 or so years that I have been playing. it would be nice to see a little more diversity.
I love having female gammers. They tend to take a very different approach to situations than to veteran male players.
What I have found is that women are not as much into the killing aspect of most games, and thus are not initially drawn to D&D...which face it, involves a lot of slaughter.
Most of the female gamers I have played with were the significant others of male players in my games. Some really liked playing once they were introduced to it, but some just did it because their partner played.
Others were SCA/thespian/artsy/goth types that would role play a 5 minute waking up and getting geared up for the day scene into a 6 hour session.
I don't even think my wife had even heard of the game until she met me. She has played some, but not much since we had our son (which tends to be the way of married gaming couples) and she started her PhD.
While I've been known to go through D&D withdrawal, she is couldn't care less if she ever played again...not because she didn't have fun, she just sees so many other things that she wants to do.
One interesting thing I noticed when watching my wife play Warcraft (something else I introduced her to) that really summarizes up our differences is that when playing the same scenario. I will take a small band of characters and whittle away at the enemy force until I win.
She on the other hand will harvest every last resource on the map (literally) build the heaviest fortifications and then charge the enemy with an army that maxes out the number of characters allowable in the scenario. We both win, but the way we do it is different. Between the two of us we knocked the game MYST out in a single evening. That is one reason I like her to play in my games and would like other female.
At the World Game Day event held at MFLGS there were six full tables of gamers. At each table there was at least one female gamer. Although there was only one there that I noticed that was not attached to a male gamer.
ASEO out
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I have to concur with farewell2kings, my fiancee is still working her way through her first year of D&D (with some DMing on the side) and her focus has been priamrily on learning the rules, she's not real big on rping, to be honest. At least, not yet. She'd rather roll a Diplomacy check then act out the dialogue anyday.
*Shrug* We can give evidence for both sides, but we all should probably agree that women, like men, have a wide range of persoanlities and desires within their cohort- It doesn't surprise us that some guys prefer to rp or dislike rules-heavy combat, so why should we assume women are also all alike?
...We can give evidence for both sides, but we all should probably agree that women, like men, have a wide range of persoanlities and desires within...
...so why should we assume women are also all alike?
Nobody has claimed that all women are alike. However, I think there's significant evidence that the 'wargaming' style of D&D is not the most successful format in terms of generating interest among women*.
I know that there are counterexamples. I've never played D&D with a woman, but it doesn't make me think that none of them play. It does make me suspect that relatively few play, and hearing the same opinion from most gamers reinforces that belief.
The situation is worsened by the industry's advertising practices which often perpetuate offensive images and stereotypes within the genre (to be fair, I think WotC themselves aren't too guilty of this -- anymore). There's a fortune to be made if they could successfully target a wider market, but I see little credible effort to do so.
Of course, I also see little evidence that WotC is capable of identifying bad decisions and correcting them, but a lot of that is purely personal opinion (and not necessarily supported by any facts).
For what it's all worth :)
(probably not a lot)
Jack
*I do think it is the best format to promote miniature sales, which I now believe is the primary mission of the D&D product line.
Since the 90's, I've traveled to conventions all over the East and I've found that most women gamers are more into White Wolf and Vampire instead of traditional D&D - there are exceptions however, and most of these gamers are very good roleplayers.
Roleplaying is the key to getting more women into gaming - good story, 3-D characters, intriguing fantasy, comfortable gaming setting, mature gamers - all of these are more inviting than the ol' hack and slash, pizza eating, polyester-wearing, Beavis and Butthead geeks sitting hunched around the table rolling dice.
Honestly, I've seen more and more women in pbems that in actual live games lately - again, I think it is the attraction to roleplaying that is the key draw.
Just my thoughts.
Peace!
-g-
I think that all of us are basing our perceptions of female gamers on anecdotal evidence only. Certain hobbies attract more males or more females. There's nothing that can be don about it. The fact that my gaming group is 60% female is unusual, I know.
RPG's will probably never be "mainstream." The points made about the socialization of girls so as they would naturally shy away from RPG's is probably somewhat true, but all it takes is one strong-willed and confident woman to start running a campaign and letting her lady friends know about it and they will try it.
I've tried very hard to get my wife to run a game, but she doesn't want to do the number-crunching and "work".
I think the key to attracting more female gamers is to create a lot of female DM's. Female players are okay and often attract more female players, but I think if you put 1-3 good female DM's into a college campus, within one year you'll have dozens of female gamers.
Once a female gamer has "experience" at playing or running a game, she will be less intimidated by the predominant male gaming culture, because she won't feel that she has to rely on the men to "teach" her the game, which opens up many of the uncomfortable situations that can turn gamers of both genders off.
I'm going to keep trying to get my wife to DM, but she's almost 40 and set in her ways--and most of her friends don't have time to play D&D anyway, but if you really want to do something about this--don't just teach ladies to play D&D or other RPG's, teach them to DM.
When I first started gaming, I managed to steal my first basic set from my sister, who was interested because D&D was the "cutting edge" thing at the time, but she didn't want to do the work to learn the rules. So I inherited it. I tried to teach her to play, but given that she managed worse die rolls than anyone in the history of D&D (with the exception of our late lamented Vyth as related in the last Dungeon editorial), she never really got into it, though we did end up having a running joke about skeletons being the bane of her existance.
Later on, upon graduating from high school, my fiance decided to join my gaming group, became the party cleric, and did her level best to always be the center of attention. For a while, my friends kept her alive no matter how bad her decicions were, but eventually they stopped asking for healing, then stopped being available to play at all. Then once my group broke up and I wanted to start recruiting new players, she convinced me that this was a hobby to leave behind and it was time to "grow up."
In my current group, my friend constantly teases his fiance about making up a character, and she declines, and my other friend's wife has no interest in gaming whatsoever. My new, wonderful, lovely wife has actually had some interesting discussions on alignments, racial attitudes and the like, as well as having some interesting discussions on D&D and how it relates to the LOTR movies and Harry Potter, but she doesn't want to play becuase it would hinder my "boy's night out."
That makes me wonder if this isn't why we don't end up with a lot of women gamers. When we get older, and we have significant others, a lot of times they will bow out to give us time with our friends.
Oh, and slightly off topic here, but great googalie moogalie, when is the contract with that play by mail place up? I can't stand their ads. I feel like I lose I.Q. points every time I read them. I think they are using an ad agency from the mid eighties to come up with their ads.
I agree with Laeknir that players should be treated with respect and acceptance rather than trying to develop an SOP for dealing with their "type" of person - female, gay, minority, whatever. But I also agree with Yamo that there is essentially activities that attract men and often very different ones that attract women. Is there ever going to be a time when this fruitless debate is abandoned?
My wife is the best DM I've ever played with and she's been playing DnD much longer than I (which is saying alot); in fact, she introduced ME to the game - not vice versa. That being said, I cringe when I see this tired subject come up for debate yet again. Most recently, I was annoyed to see it crop up in Dungeon (Dragon letters were bad enough). It meant I had to listen for hours while my wife ranted about this issue. I'll try to condense and clarify my lovely wife's views here ...
For years game companies have attempted to expand their product beyond its intended consumers - HotWheels makes pink cars, Mattel creates "My Buddy" dolls, etc, etc. They try every variety of advertising and packaging possibility, spending billions of dollars to come to the following conclusion - generally ... little boys like to play with trucks and little girls like to play with dolls and almost never vice versa. That might not be politically correct but it's the truth.
I've always had one or more ladies in my gaming group and would always welcome more but I wish WotC or Paizo or whoever would give this effort a rest. No amount of repackaging or advertising or focused research or marketing ploy is going to solve this problem - EVER. More men are going to play DnD than women. Period. And if men, like me, want more women to join their game it's their job to be a positive influence on their wives, girlfriends, sisters, female friends, whatever.
Let's stop blaming this on the bikini-clad rendering of a female adventurer. My wife is not offended by such images at all. This is a fantasy game, after all. As has been stated in earlier posts, we imagine our characters as we would like them to be, not with an eye toward realism. Nobody wants to play a frumpy ugly woman (or then again, maybe some people do) but imagine their characters with a level of "perfection", sleek, sexy,heroic ... epic. I mean, even the hit show Desperate Housewives doesn't portray the average housewife (not in any neighborhood I've ever lived in anyway. *sigh*).
My wife HATES the politically correct adjustment of pronouns in the core books (I'm not fond of it either). My wife says "Are they so stupid that they think I can't convert a masculine pronoun to include myself?". When my wife picked up the Stormwrack suppliment, after reading the table of contents she said "How much ya wanna bet they picture the pirate as a woman and the 'sea witch' as a man?". And voila - that's exactly what was done. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to shake up stereotypes every once in a while but hasn't the pendulum swung too far the other way? Now, DMs are referred to in the feminine and traditionally male characters portrayed as female and vice versa a huge majority of the time (totally out of proportion to the small percentage of female gamers).
And these letters (both in print and on these messageboards) that claim that dungeon-crawls and combat foci are responsible for the lack of female gamers are way off the mark. There are just certain things that appeal to men and women differently (call it biology or socialization, whatever). It's not a matter of tweaking this or that; minimizing or streamlining the rules, spotlighting role-playing, making the game more "personal", or any other fix-it plan. If men want women to join their game, they themselves possess the best means to appeal to their female companions. The game companies should not waste the time, money and effort - concentrating instead on making the game better and more fun for EVERYONE.
"Let's stop blaming this on the bikini-clad rendering of a female adventurer. My wife is not offended by such images at all."
Cosmo still sells, alright.
"I mean, even the hit show Desperate Housewives doesn't portray the average housewife (not in any neighborhood I've ever lived in anyway. *sigh*)."
Pretty much all other television with a primarily female demographic is the same way. Sex in the City was a big one, too. The female half of the Friend's cast. Soap opera, of course.
All of modern society is sexualized, and the (arguably unfortunate) fact is that almost nobody wants plain-looking people in their fantasy entertainment. It's nothing unique to gaming. In fact, gaming is rather tame in this regard when contrasted with most forms of entertainment (probably owing mostly to the fact that it's most popular with straight men who don't mind "cheesecake" art, but aren't actually very comfortable playing-out romantic and sexual scenes with each other at the gaming table).
... You might as well ask why more men don't knit.
Yamo, look! Vogue Knitting - "Knit.1"!
http://www.knit1mag.com
It's a new magazine, premiere issue today, and it says that lots of men are getting into knitting - who knew?
Oh, it's real all right. :-)
Knitting is awesome. I spend most of my time knitting while my significant other (Rexx) is off playing his D&D games. I have played in a few of his games, but it isn't something I've gotten really into. However, it's not because of the images of women in the books and magazines that accompany this hobby.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like that women are portrayed in such a sexist way in those publications, but that's the way it is all over mainstream society. Think about shows or commercials you see on TV. Women are idealized. Why?
Well, one could argue that men are drawn to visual images of "attractiveness". That is most likely why there are so many half-naked images of women in D&D. It's to draw the men/boys into the gaming environment. Why then are most of the images of men in D&D fully clothed from the neck down in fancy robes and armor? The answer is simple; women are just too smart to fall for that, so the D&D world doesn't bother. :D (hee-hee)
Seriously, I think there is a generalized difference in the way that men and women are attracted to things (people, activities, etc.). And the images used in books and magazines have been stuck showing what a typical (or stereotyped) male wants to see. It would be nice to see a female fighter dressed in more than a halter top and hot pants. Maybe some armor, or at least a long sleeve shirt.
The images of women need to be dressed in a similar manner as the men in the D&D publications. Young women would be drawn to a positive "role model" of sorts - a strong woman that doesn't need to take her clothes off to succeed. Many current images show a half-naked woman being "saved" by a fully clothed man. I wouldn't be attracted to that image and it certainly would not make me want to start playing D&D. In fact, it would have the opposite affect on me. If the D&D world wants to start attracting more women/girls to the hobby, they should start showing the female characters in a more positive way. Possibly a half-naked man being rescued by a woman in full armor. Maybe then we’ll start to see full page ads for D&D books in Cosmo instead of ones for Harlequin romance novels.
I've almost convinced my wife to dust off her dice, but she's not sure how well it would go if one of us wasn't watching our kids during the game.
I have been playing D&D with one particular couple since 1992. We all play as PC's in one or more of the various campaigns we have going and the husband and I both DM one of the campaigns. They have a 14 year old boy, a 7 year old boy and a 3 year old girl and I have a 7 year old boy. If you do the math, when we first met their now-14 year old was just a baby, and our 7 year olds didn't come along until roughly six years later.
No matter where we'd be gamming, the kids came along or were already there. In my case my husband is not a gamer, so he would usually stay home and attend to projects of his own while I toddled off with babe in arms. Over all these years, not having someone constantly "watching the kids during the game" was never a problem.
Yes, sometimes one or the other of us would have to get up to tend to something, to get a drink of juice from the fridge, or whatnot. Yes, sometimes having a five year old insist on sitting in your lap when you are right in the middle of an intense combat sequence is a bit taxing on the nerves, but it always works out in the long run - even if you just have to pause the game for a moment or two.
The three of us have been particularly blessed in that, as our group grew and shrank over time, it acquired two absolutely wondeful men who would happily serve as surrogate "Uncles" to all of our children, readily moving in to help break up some tussle over a toy or to sit and keep a cranky child amused with a Dr. Seuss book if that's what it takes to give Mum or Dad the time needed to roll some dice. Today, the five of us have been campaigning together for around eight or nine years, and my two friends' oldest son, exposed to D&D practically since the day he was born, has joined us. Our 7 year olds, still a bit too young to participate themselves, nonetheless love to look at the pictures in the Monster Manual, and frequently run around and about as brave knights or golden dragons or powerful wizards.
So I say tell your wife not to worry. She should brush that dust off those dice and get gaming. The kids will be fine, your companions may help out more than you might suspect, and she should certainly have a good time. :-)
Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.
You might as well ask why more men don't knit.
My wife doesn't knit but she does crochet and I met her at a game of D&D. Our daughter had played Magic when she was 5 and has played D&D with us since she was 10; she is now 16.
and I shower thank you very much! :P Most of the gaming groups I've been in since '79 have had women in them. Women enjoy gaming as much as guys do!
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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So I say tell your wife not to worry. She should brush that dust off those dice and get gaming. The kids will be fine, your companions may help out more than you might suspect, and she should certainly have a good time. :-)
I agree. I run an Eberron game and my wife and I both play. The beginning of each session while we game our toddler colors (at her own table), sits in our laps (especially mine since I have all the minis), or plays by herself in the gaming room until bedtime -- at which point, since I DM, we take a half hour (or occasionally longer) break for bedtime. This system works well for us when we play at home. On the rare occasion we play elsewhere we work out something.
The only thing I warn against is content...Make sure you are comfortable with the content of your game as far as your kids go. We've found that while our D&D games are tame enough, I no longer play games with clearly adult content, like the World of Darkness, at least not while my daughter is around.
--But I digress: Dust off your wife's dice for her and clear a spot at the table.
We've been gaming with kids around for over a decade now. It was hard to get used to all the distraction at first, but now having the kids around while we game is just part of the scenery--taking occasional breaks to tend to the kids is just a natural flow of the game now
Yesterday was a first--two of my male friends couldn't make the game and I ended up playing as the only male player in a group of four gamers. The only other male at the gaming table was the DM. No one even gave it any second thought until I did right now when I saw this thread had popped back up on the radar.
I'm a Girl and I'm also a gamer. My friend(who is also a girl) cannot stand RPing, she likes to kill the monster and get XP, Another player(guy) likes the charecter concepts and the plot development and i like a mix of both.
There is no standard to what a player likes depending on gender...what will draw more players to DnD(male or female) are DM's who can dish out a healthy mix.
As to the ad's and questionably sexist material, i cant say it makes be feel good when i compare chain-mail bikini-clad females to the males who for the most part get to wear a complete armor.
But hey, DnD is as a whole only advertised to Guys and maybe until more women speak up that wont change
That was a hell of a bump.
But hey, DnD is as a whole only advertised to Guys and maybe until more women speak up that wont change.
I can imagine an 'extra-marital adventure' module with a picture of Fabio in a torn chainmail on the cover. He and a female sorceress would be locked in a lustful embrace, looking in each other's eyes as the wind gently caresses their golden flowing hair.
(I'm just being sarcastic!)
I really enjoy having girls at my gaming table. They bring a whole 'other way of playing' to the game.
Ultradan
If the D&D world wants to start attracting more women/girls to the hobby, they should start showing the female characters in a more positive way. Possibly a half-naked man being rescued by a woman in full armor. Maybe then we’ll start to see full page ads for D&D books in Cosmo instead of ones for Harlequin romance novels.
Check out the Iron Lords of Jupiter mini game in Polyhedron #160 (on the back of Dungeon #101).
Hmm.. I guess it's an all time discussion.
My group has been mostly female, with me dm-ing (female too).
When I started playing D&D, I played in a few groups where I was or the only female or we were at most with two. The first group I played in, proved to be a very nice experience to me. Experienced dm and no prejudice at all. The second was less.. well.. nice.
After a few years, I tried getting a few friends into d&d, (and my brother). In the end, now four of my friends (all women) are playing and I must say, I get to know more and more female around that play D&D that my ratio of players, if sorted by gender, has more women in it, then men.
About the differences in playing style, I don't think it's too gender related. I know two guys that roleplay everything out.. But then again, it's true my group is more roleplaying oriented.
Girls being more appearance based? Could be, but I don't think that's an obstacle here to play d&d. Most of the women I know, that got into d&d, tried it because they loved fantasy.
And yes, it's of course all tied into which group you get.
Hmm.. messy post, sorry.
Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.
You might as well ask why more men don't knit.
I mentioned this comment to my wife on the weekend. She then went on a big (and only vaguely related) tear about how D&D is the perfect thing for knitters, because you have all sorts of entertainment and only occasionally have to put the needles down to roll some dice. This has led me to develop a new advertising slogan for Wizards.
WoTC, your new D&D slogan is...
"D&D: totally compatible with knitting!"
"D&D: totally compatible with knitting!"
I'm bumping this thread solely to expose more people to that slogan.
I am a female who knits DURING game. Being a figgety person, I need to keep my hands busy while waiting for my turn during combat. Otherwise I play with my dice, and too many dice rolling at once can be confusing when more then one person in our group loves purple dice.
I like knitting, sewing, and being girly at times, but gaming is almost a second job for my fiance and I myself don't understand why I can't get any of my girlfriends to play.
As for the female "look" to many charaters, all one needs to do is take a look at some of my drawings of my own charaters to realize I don't mind the stero-type chick in chain mail or spell caster in a bikini at all. In fact I have had it suggested to me by my male DM that I put some more clothes on my high level ice caster.
Prehaps I might suggest to people trying to get more girls (or guys) to play to find a way to get them interested using their current hobbies. Some of my hobbies are drawing, painting, knitting and cooking. At first my fiance drove me crazy with D&D. I didn't understand how to read this "charater sheet thing" with numbers, so he told me to draw my charater and tell him what she did. Later on he bought me paints and tiny brushes so I could paint my own mini. He also gave me free run of the kitchen and I could take a break from the gaming table to cook what ever I wanted and his friends *always* love food.
Hey James, Thanks for bumping this thread, the new slogan has become a great joke between my friends and I, and estimates on my craft checks for the scarf I'm making are becoming quite fun.
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I am a female who knits DURING game. Being a figgety person, I need to keep my hands busy while waiting for my turn during combat. Otherwise I play with my dice, and too many dice rolling at once can be confusing when more then one person in our group loves purple dice.
I like knitting, sewing, and being girly at times, but gaming is almost a second job for my fiance and I myself don't understand why I can't get any of my girlfriends to play.
As for the female "look" to many charaters, all one needs to do is take a look at some of my drawings of my own charaters to realize I don't mind the stero-type chick in chain mail or spell caster in a bikini at all. In fact I have had it suggested to me by my male DM that I put some more clothes on my high level ice caster.
Prehaps I might suggest to people trying to get more girls (or guys) to play to find a way to get them interested using their current hobbies. Some of my hobbies are drawing, painting, knitting and cooking. At first my fiance drove me crazy with D&D. I didn't understand how to read this "charater sheet thing" with numbers, so he told me to draw my charater and tell him what she did. Later on he bought me paints and tiny brushes so I could paint my own mini. He also gave me free run of the kitchen and I could take a break from the gaming table to cook what ever I wanted and his friends *always* love food.
Do you have a site where you display your artwork? I would love to see it.
FH
Yes, yes, you should show us some artwork, Celiwyn! If you don't have one, you should sign up at DeviantArt to host your artwork.
I have a tendency to doodle during game, but it's all game-related, so it's okay.
I have to add that most of the groups that don't have female gamers are boring. It seems to me simple, if you have an interesting group you can decide who plays on your table and gamers of any gender are attracted.
I knew times when gamers and especially female gamers were rare (I was one of the fisrt in my country to start with RPGs), but in the last years, after Harry Potter and LotR, there is an explosion of female gamers.
But I agree that the half-naked girls on the covers get on my nerves. Of course, sex sells and I like naked women (you can ask my wife), but I don't need any product that I like to be combined with sex.
I remember when this discussion was going in the Dragon letters column, but I wasn’t coming to the boards at the time, so I didn’t see it here. (And BTW Editors, you boys really ticked me off when you didn’t print the letter I sent. The discussion was just starting, and most of the responses you were printing were from men… including printing my husband’s follow up letter. I WAS glad to see it even out eventually between male and female responses, so you were eventually forgiven.)
As a female gamer (and the “F” word… Feminist)… I don’t mind the scantily clad women any more than I do the beefcake barbarian men. I love the fantasy artwork of Boris, Bell, Royo, Franzetta, etc., and I’m as likely to buy a mini of a female fighter in a chain mail bikini as I am one in full plate. The Play by Mail ad others have mentioned DID bother me, as THAT type of thing is what I consider exploitive (and a stupid bit of advertising as they’re basically saying there’s no merit to the game to make people want to play for the game itself).
I don’t know that it’s a specific issue of the types of stories or supplements that are printed, as a DM and group can shape these things any way they want and approach the game any way they want. But here’s my own personal experience: I’ve played in groups that are male dominated, female dominated, and evenly split. Our original group had 3 women and 4 men, and then it gradually changed to just me and three of the guys. I noticed that as this change happened, there was a gradual shift away from the original theme of cooperative play. (Currently, it's gone the other way with 5 women and 1 man... and the cooperative play has come back as well).
One session in particular stands out: we were getting ready to ambush some enemies, and the standard “who should do what” discussion started. Everyone started tossing in their suggestion, and the guys started putting a plan together. Notice I didn’t say “we”… I said “the guys”… and that was deliberate. Every suggestion I offered was met with “Oh yeah, I can do that, too.” or “Nah, I’ll take care of that part.” and they would go back to huddling together and making their plans. Mind you, this wasn’t a new group and we’d been playing together for a long while, but for the first time I felt invisible at the table and I was furious. The DM didn’t even notice what was happening, and I pointed it out to him after the game (at which point he apologized for not noticing what was happening.)
If this had been my first experience of gaming, there would have been absolutely no reason for me to come back, and the rest of the group would likely never know WHY I wasn’t coming back. So, if you’re a DM and you’re tying to bring new players to the table (male or female), just be extra aware of how those players are being treated and that EVERYONE is being included in the game.
Hey James, Thanks for bumping this thread, the new slogan has become a great joke between my friends and I, and estimates on my craft checks for the scarf I'm making are becoming quite fun.
Hee hee... I'll have to let my wife know that you like it. :-) And I never even thought of making crafting check jokes... That actually made me giggle when I read it.
My ex-wife could not stand my lifelong hobby as a gaming geek and in fact cites that as one of the reasons for abandoning the marriage (my story is a little different, but we won't go into that).
My current girlfriend has just begun to game with us - playing Warhammer FRP, not D&D - but she has never played any RPG's before. So far, she is having a great time but doesn't fit the mold discussed here. She isn't comfortable enough yet to get really into character - she is the only new player with an experienced group - and gets much more fun and satisfaction from learning the ins and outs of the rules and throwing the dice in combat.
I think most would agree that this is the typical curve most of us have taken, and so perhaps there is no difference between men and women?
I'd love to hear from some of the industry's leading women on this topic: Sue Cook or Michelle Carter for example.
Cheers
Llowellen