Hey, I'm not all that familiar with the Demon Lords from earlier editions (ie. no familiarity what so ever), but I have a few suggestions. You guys can shout me down if I'm mentioning anything already done, or was done as complete crap. I just read the Enuma elis, the Babylonian creation story. It has a number of names of various demons/monsters; Kingu, Kulili, Kusaiqu, etc. These could tie in nicely with article on Mesopotamian myths in issue #329.
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Hey, I'm not all that familiar with the Demon Lords from earlier editions (ie. no familiarity what so ever), but I have a few suggestions. You guys can shout me down if I'm mentioning anything already done, or was done as complete crap. I just read the Enuma elis, the Babylonian creation story. It has a number of names of various demons/monsters; Kingu, Kulili, Kusaiqu, etc. These could tie in nicely with article on Mesopotamian myths in issue #329.
Not a bad idea, considerng that alot of that regions mythology contains references to demons. I believe Pazuzu himself is from that myth cycle, or one from a close region.
Yeah, and the story practically writes itself:
The demons named are all children of Tiamat. She took her son, the demon/monster/god Kingu as her second consort. Kingu was made the War Commander of Tiamat's forces against the other gods (who she hated for kiliing her first husband, Apsu.) Kingu was given the Tablets of Destiny (or Fate) to wear over his chest as armor.
Marduk was the god the other gods made their hero to stop Tiamat. After killing her, Marduk imprisoned the other demons, and took the Tablets of Destiny from Kingu. He later made humanity out of Kingu's corpse as servants for the gods.
So if we were to put it into D&D, Kingu would be a powerful (and some what insane) demon that seeks the return of the Tablets of Destiny. He belives that it is his right to control the fate of humanity as they are all "his children." The double danger of Kingu regaining the Tablets of Destiny are his control of all fate, and regaining a measure of his sanity. If Kingu becomes sane, he could rally other demons around him, organizing them into a large and near unstoppable force. And that has always been the saving grace with demons; while there are too many of them, they are too chaotic to organize. A demon army lead by Kingu would be a threat on all planes and peoples. Someone could even have a story in which legions of devils are force to fight side-by-side with various celestials against Kingu's vast demon army.
Another nominee I think who has been overlooked is Ilsidahur, who made his debut in Dungeon Magazine (the Shrine of Ilsidahur).
someone, *someone*, SOMEONE might just be planning on sending a query for this and other more obscure demon lords, but who that might be remains *cough* a mystery. ;)
Hasn't it been mentioned that the Demonomicon series will be written by James Jacobs only?
Does it make sense to submit Demonomicon-queries?
The last one was a tag-team effort by two authors, if I recall. I don't have the issue in front of me, so I'm not too sure...
Hey all,
Check this out!! This was found on amazon Canada:
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss
By James Jacobs and Eric Mona
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786939192/qid%3D1127848851/sr%3D1-3/ ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F0%5F3/701-1944550-3336301
So guys, it's time to talk about a hardbound version of the Demonomicon!! Will this be a compendium of the Dragon articles related to the Demonomicon, or will we get updated 3.5 stats for Demogorgon, Grazz't, Juiblex, Orcus and Yeenoghu as well? What do you all think? Oh, and Eric and James, feel free to comment on this at any time... ;)
Hasn't it been mentioned that the Demonomicon series will be written by James Jacobs only?
Does it make sense to submit Demonomicon-queries?
he did say that he would get tired of it sooner or later... ;) and i haven't seen any paizo staffers recommending that people not send any in. what i have seen is that James said he was slated to write three, and that he would like to do more. #3 will be available very soon, so i am going to send in a query when i have it in my hands. :)
Dungeon magazine has actually featured more obscure unique demons than Dragon magazine has:
#5 (The Stolen Power): Shami-Amourae
#10 (The Shrine of Ilsidahur): Ilsidahur
#13 (The Ruins of Nol-Daer): Arzial
#28 (Sleepless): Siragle
#60 (Nemesis): Shaktari
#64 (Bzallin's Blacksphere): J'zzalshrak
Also, there was the Demon Prince Nql, who was only once briefly mentioned in the Eldritch Wizardry supplement way back when, I think under Codex of the Infinite Planes.
I'd love a huge compendium of demons and devils. This i would pre-order.
Here ya go ;)
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Dungeon magazine has actually featured more obscure unique demons than Dragon magazine has:
#5 (The Stolen Power): Shami-Amourae
#10 (The Shrine of Ilsidahur): Ilsidahur
#13 (The Ruins of Nol-Daer): Arzial
#28 (Sleepless): Siragle
#60 (Nemesis): Shaktari
#64 (Bzallin's Blacksphere): J'zzalshrakAlso, there was the Demon Prince Nql, who was only once briefly mentioned in the Eldritch Wizardry supplement way back when, I think under Codex of the Infinite Planes.
As much as I have been enjoying the Demonomicon so far, I do have one complaint. I wish they would focus on some of the more obscure Demon Princes, like some of the ones you mention above.
after they get the big guys out of the way (2 more to go!), Erik has strongly hinted that they want to move on to guys like those...
of course, with the articles appearing only once every 3 months, that means it will be six months from now that B & K will be finished, and 9 months until the next demon lord will appear. :)
Speaking of obscure demon lords, Dragon magazine, during the second edition days, mentioned Arlgocheir (destroyed) and Gorion.
Shaktari of "Nemesis" is basically, in my opinion, an advanced and/or templated marilith. Malcanthet has been mentioned in Dungeon lately, so maybe we will see some further developement on her.
Argolcheir was very obscure indeed. i don't know if anyone has any additional info about him, or if Ed Greenwood even remembers him since he wrote that article nigh on 20 years ago. :)
I've seen the ask Ed thread at Candlekeep.com . . . trust me, Ed remembers EVERYTHING!
at the very least, he probably has some notes even if he doesn't recall off the top of his head.
I want every non-BoVD Major Demon to be reprinted!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
-ahem-
Plus, some of the Cthulhu deities translated into Demon Princes/Princesses would be cool too.
Lolth needs a makeover to get past what Salvatore (who is a good writer, but has inadvertantly both ruined the drow and elevated them beyond their wildest dreams) has messed up on her.
I think you messed up here my friend. Salvatore did not mess up the drow and or Lolth being the vile Evilness that she is. That fact brings to mind when she found a way to let loose Errtu back on the world in his novels.
That one drow managed to get to the world and return to the light side is one thing. But its stil the underdark. Elaine Cunningham is the one that REALLY made Eilistraee more of a public symbol with her Daughter of the Drow series. So don't go bashing Salvatore if you don't like Lolth the way she is to the public eye. Remember the drow can be as dark and as nasty as you make them in your own mind and campaign. What really needs to be done is a series where Lolth finally sqashes all her competition for the drow. *smiles evilly*
As to the drow being over-done. I'm personally one that will take whatever information I can get about elves. Light, Dark, or even Planar Elves. But I prefer the Dark. As a DM its fun being evil. *smiles*
The War of the Spider Queen is an excellent series. For those that have not picked it up, I suggest it. Nobody's hands are clean in these books.
I'll jump into this one:
I'd love to see
* Alphaks the Roaring Demon (From M1 - Vengance of Alphaks)
* Arik of the 1000 Eyes. (from B3)
* Thanatos (from Wrath of the Immortals)
* Atzanteotl (From Caverns of the Shadowelves)
Håvard
wow, i thought Alphaks was an Immortal! (or can demons be Immortals and vice versa?)
wow, i thought Alphaks was an Immortal! (or can demons be Immortals and vice versa?)
Alphaks becomes a true immortal at the end of Vengance of Alphaks. In OD&D, demons are considered immortal level creatures (exalted status), but not true immortals (or deities in 3E).
For a 3E article, it would be best to simply consider him a Deity though, IMHO.
BTW: sorry about the late reply.
Håvard
gathered up all the demon lords and other demonic lore i had laying about: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=152741
gathered up all the demon lords and other demonic lore i had laying about: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=152741
Is Adimarchus a Demon Prince, and if so can we expect to see a Demonomicon article about him?
Adimarchus is a fallen celestial and the exiled demon prince of madness. He was pretty heavily detailed in Dungeon #116, so I'd say that is doubtful.
Adamarchus is certainly a contender for a Demonomicon article, but since part of the point of these articles is to provide current stats & information on demon princes and lords who have fallen into the limbo between editions, he's pretty far down on the list.
I have done some searching and have found a lot of the names of the various Demon Princes/Princesses, could anyone tell me how many Demon Princes have been named throughout D&D history (just the number, not names)? Also, it seems that some of the Demon Princes are now gods, for example Lolth. Is it safe to assume that a Demon Prince who has achieved god hood will not have a Demonomicon article.
given that demogorgon, juiblex, and yeenoghu were "de-godded", i suspect that baphomet, kostchtchie, and sess'innek have the same fate awaiting for them.
This may not be in the context of the articles, but I'd love to see Ogremoch, the Prince of Elemental Evil done in some kind of detail.
He was by far the coolest unique monster in the original AD&D Fiend Folio.
I have friends who have played under me for years that would cry if I pulled out him again.
with a little luck, maybe he will be in something sometime soon! probably not in Demonomicon format though.
so, anyone care to venture a guess as to who we will be seeing in a few weeks? :)
my feeling is that there are going to be a lot of happy frost giants. ;)
Iggelwiv creeped The Koga out, she looks just like his girlfriend lol!
Demogorgon would be a good one, wasn't he suppose to be THE demon to some extent? But any would be good, can never go wrong with evil lol..
I could venture a guess, but that'd be cheating.
and cheating is wrong. :P
no matter - #340 shall soon arrive in the hands of subscribers and then we will all know! muahahahahaha!!!
it's been awhile since i've seen Ninja Scroll (my copy was stolen). what was the Koga ninja trick again? ;)
i was dismayed by how many people on this thread knew little or nothing about the Demonomicon or Fiendish Codex I. :(
no Yuggoloths
You mean Daemons.
Why? Why? Why? is this the only stupid 2e terminology change to survive completely intact? Yes, the terms Tanarri and Baatezu are unfortunately still slightly in use in 3e, but the heading at the top of the page in the MM is still Demon or Devil. Why did no one kill the Yugoloth and bring back Daemons?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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While I struggled with it initially, I am now completely comfortable with tanar'ri and baatezu as _types_ of demons and devils. Fine. Whatever. No skin off my back.
I used to be really bent out of shape about it.
But for some reason I've never mourned the loss of the word daemon.
Hmmm.
--Erik
The problem with daemon is that it sounds too much like demon. If pronounced correctly, there's no difference. If mispronounced as seems to the be the custom, it's a bit silly. I personally really like yugoloth, but if daemon became a generic grouping of NE outsiders (like demon is to tanar'ri and devil is to baatezu), I'd be fine with it.
Now, what irks me is the change back to demodand from gehreleth. I like gehreleth.
I would like to see more on the Demon Lord of Gnolls and Ghouls; like how the heck did that happen. hehe is he the lord of off evil things starting with G is he gonna fight with kotchitie to take over the giants? I haven't seen any 3.5 stats for him, but he was one of the wimpier 1st end demon lords; how did this mob get to be a lord anyway. He figured fairly strongly in my game years ago when my pc's were fighting lots of gnolls and hmm ghouls then finally battled and defeated him. Gnolls and ghouls are a lot tuffer now as they can have classess added to their profiles; would like to see this guy figure as a prominent demon lord.
i was dismayed by how many people on this thread knew little or nothing about the Demonomicon or Fiendish Codex I. :(
ack; stab in the eye; your right though about me anyway; I dont have either of them and havent seen anyone with them; I would expect a demonomicon to have basic ritual information for various demons and a bit about their constant battle fronts; how much of their resources are commited to those battles; how many standing troops they can generate for other threats. I have seen a few games where pc's invade the abyss, just to clean up a level or two, with armies and stuff so this kind of information would be very useful to a gm.
How about Legion from the bible? You know one of the first books that mentions demons.
i was dismayed by how many people *on this thread* knew little or nothing about the Demonomicon or Fiendish Codex I. :(ack; stab in the eye; your right though about me anyway; I dont have either of them and havent seen anyone with them; I would expect a demonomicon to have basic ritual information for various demons and a bit about their constant battle fronts; how much of their resources are commited to those battles; how many standing troops they can generate for other threats. I have seen a few games where pc's invade the abyss, just to clean up a level or two, with armies and stuff so this kind of information would be very useful to a gm.
i didn't mean this thread on Paizo, that was supposed to be a link to a thread on another forum that i was trying to fish people over to. ;) try clicking the link in that post...
I would like to see more on the Demon Lord of Gnolls and Ghouls; like how the heck did that happen. hehe is he the lord of off evil things starting with G is he gonna fight with kotchitie to take over the giants? I haven't seen any 3.5 stats for him, but he was one of the wimpier 1st end demon lords; how did this mob get to be a lord anyway. He figured fairly strongly in my game years ago when my pc's were fighting lots of gnolls and hmm ghouls then finally battled and defeated him. Gnolls and ghouls are a lot tuffer now as they can have classess added to their profiles; would like to see this guy figure as a prominent demon lord.
Yeenoghu? the story goes that he was just the lord of gnolls until he subverted The King of Ghouls and took over their rulership. i *think* you'll find that information back in the original 1st edition Monster Manual...
I would like to see more on the Demon Lord of Gnolls and Ghouls; like how the heck did that happen. hehe is he the lord of off evil things starting with G is he gonna fight with kotchitie to take over the giants? I haven't seen any 3.5 stats for him, but he was one of the wimpier 1st end demon lords; how did this mob get to be a lord anyway. He figured fairly strongly in my game years ago when my pc's were fighting lots of gnolls and hmm ghouls then finally battled and defeated him. Gnolls and ghouls are a lot tuffer now as they can have classess added to their profiles; would like to see this guy figure as a prominent demon lord.Yeenoghu? the story goes that he was just the lord of gnolls until he subverted The King of Ghouls and took over their rulership. i *think* you'll find that information back in the original 1st edition Monster Manual...
This discussion of Yeenoghu reminds me:
The Book of Vile Darkness didn't have a Thrall of Yeenoghu prestige class. To me that alone should make him a viable candidate for a Demonomicon article.
The one I really want to see is Abraxas of his interesting real-world history.
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I'd like to make a point: Everyone who doesn like Lolth-please keep your opinions to yourself if you are unable to clarify that they are just that--your opinions. You dont speak for everyone! There are an incredible amount of players who still love Lolth and would love to see more of her. As far as the Drow go, i dont feel that they have been overly done. Drow are cool and i use them quite a bit. My players-ages ranging from 21-43-love the Drow and always get a bit nervous when coming across them. Anyway, i dont mind if individuals dont care for the Drow and Lolth, but PLEASE dont give your opinions out as though you are speaking for the majority, for you are NOT. One more point, i play with experienced players both in Southern California and up north in Castro Valley,and speak with other friends/players thorughout the country, and have yet find someone-anyone-talk down about the Drow or Lolth.
Thoth-Amon
Orcus would be a good choice, but he and a lot of his buddies had big writeups in the Book of Vile Darkness, so maybe they've been done too recently?
Lolth...I can't agree with you there. The drow are done. They're over. They're dead ebony-skinned horses so for God's sake quit beating them. I would honestly be happy if Dragon took a good decade off from even mentioning drow or anything closely connected to them. It's gotten to the point now where I almost hate drow despite myself. I have to go back and re-read Gygax's original drow modules periodically just to stave-off the loathing. Then I curl-up in the fetal position and and chant "There's no such thing as Elistrae...there's no such things as Elistrae..." until the men in the while coats bring me my medicine. :)
Zuggtmoy would be great. I would ignore what Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil has to say about her fate after the Temple fell for the second time, though. Like its explaination for Prince Thrommel's disappearence, it just rubbed me the wrong way.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Drow are, without question, the most commercially successful and popular creatures in the D&D pantheon of monsters. Whenever the magazine features a drow on the cover, sales of the issue increase, sometimes dramatically.
I sympathize with folks who find them overexposed, but they're not going anywhere.
--Erik
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Drow are, without question, the most commercially successful and popular creatures in the D&D pantheon of monsters. Whenever the magazine features a drow on the cover, sales of the issue increase, sometimes dramatically.
I sympathize with folks who find them overexposed, but they're not going anywhere.
--Erik
I think a lot of (sane) people don't actually want them to go anywhere. We just would like to see them cut back a little. To some of us, it seems that every dastardly plot in the Forgotten Realms has a drow behind it somewhere.