RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Just my thoughts:
Lost was a soap opera/drama cleverly disguised as a science fiction show.
The island's mythos exists outside the central story of the show. In other words, the mythos is the an office building, while the office workers are the characters from Lost. The story is about the characters. Asking the questions "where did the island come from?" and "who were the people on the island in ancient times?" is akin to asking "who built the office building?" and "what company/who occupied the building 10 years ago?" The short answer is, that within the framework of the story that played out, it doesn't matter. Where the island came from, etc. are a completely different set of stories altogether and are only tangentially related to the story of the losties.
I'm going to just have to agree to disagree on this point. If it was set in an office building, and our general knowledge of the world and office buildings therefore told us that the history and nature of the office building weren't germane to the story, then I'd agree that none of that history is needed. However, the island in many ways was one of the main characters of the show, and furthermore, in no way matches up with any viewer's general knowledge of the world (unless you've had some first hand experience with a magical island with time travel, etc.) Much of the series made the issues of what the island was a central part of the story, and with the tantalising hints as to the ancientness of the island with the statue and temple area (not to mention the skeletons in the light cave) the show reinforced that these were significant questions/mysteries.
Weak sauce!
"What? The island is limbo? No. No, we would never do that."
Ha.
Now this makes me think of the Gilligan's Island/7 deadly sins analogy.
Mr. Howell = Greed (obviously)
Mrs. Howell = Sloth (didn't do any work)
Ginger = Lust (obviously)
Professor = Pride (always thought he had the right answer)
Mary Ann = Jealousy (with respect to Ginger)
Skipper = Gluttony and Rage
and the one that always torpedoed their attempts to leave island?
Gilligan (who just happens to be dressed all in red)
Personal statements of me not paying attention or observations about how wrong I am aside (Not that these things don't happen often)... witness my best attempt to support my premise. I don't think the story was so locked up at the end that any of us should have such certainty, so here is what I think happened:
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, you're going to see what you want to see, as will the rest of us. But the one question that was definitely answered last night was, 'What is up with the sideverse'. Your theory ignores the one clear answer we were given. That's all I meant by 'not paying attention'.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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The Sideverse as Heaven analogy, with the crash being the real world was what I got from that episode. However, I can see how multiple interpretations are possible; it's the nature of the beast. The writers left enough unanswered questions and deliberately shady points to make any definitive answers hard to come by.
I wasn't particularly impressed by the ending, but it was appropriate. It didn't strike me as such a sideways turn as the BSG finale did. The series always seemed to be about faith and destiny, and the ending reiterated that. I think in about five years I'll rewatch the whole thing and see if it holds up. I'm not sure if it will.
Well, you're going to see what you want to see, as will the rest of us. But the one question that was definitely answered last night was, 'What is up with the sideverse'. Your theory ignores the one clear answer we were given. That's all I meant by 'not paying attention'.Personal statements of me not paying attention or observations about how wrong I am aside (Not that these things don't happen often)... witness my best attempt to support my premise. I don't think the story was so locked up at the end that any of us should have such certainty, so here is what I think happened:
** spoiler omitted **...
"Mystic Christian oh the time has come... and you know that you're the only one to say... okay..."
So again... I don't feel certain about any of this, but I do see story architecture showing through, whether real or imagined on my part.
Everyone in the sideverse getting together to go to church was for me, just as easily interpreted as yet another skin over what I think the island actually was. It could have been another communally realized version of the shared waiting room co-created by and for the restless souls in this story. I think they could have gone to church/found peace as a group in some form or another just as easily in the island reality. It just didn't go down that way.
Looked to me like Jack let go of life with sweetly gentle realization in both realities concurrently, ending the show. Yet another suggestion that it was the same... "place."
Y'know... or not. Just my 200 cents.
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With regard to The Jade's theory:
Here's a link to a Lost fan-page that discusses the theory, including links to several interviews with Abrams, Cuse, and Lindelof where they each promise that the island is not "Purgatory" or whatever you want to call it, and that the characters are still alive the whole time.
This reminds me of that picture in which you see either an old lady or a young woman depending on how you are looking at it.
For me, however, I just don't see anything that suggested that the island life was a purgatory of sorts. No character ever suggested that. Christian makes clear that "this reality" has no "now," and I'm assuming he is talking about the Side-verse since that is the reality he is in. He also said that some died before Jack and some much later, suggesting that their deaths did not happen in one catastrophic event. Instead, some died during the many events throughout the seasons and some died off the island (possibly, in the case of Kate, Sawyer, Miles and maybe Desmond, of old age, having lived long, full lives.) Who knows how long Hurley and Ben stayed on the island as leader and his number two. Maybe someday Disney will force a sequel that includes the wild adventures of Hugo and Benjamin.
If the island was part of the limbo story, what does that say of the history of various characters who weren't necessarily on the plane - people like Ben, Richard, and Juliet? Were these people made up in the plane crash victims' imaginations, including the Others' histories? Or were they on the plane too? For me, the theory that the characters are in limbo on the island just doesn't make enough sense.
I bring this up, not because I'm discounting the "it was all in purgatory" theory, but to show why it doesn't work for me and why I have trouble seeing it from that perspective.
Many of the island's mysteries did not get solved. One has to take it on faith, a major theme of the show, that they ultimately did the right things. The final scene suggests they did do the right thing and will live eternal life with their love ones, in everlasting joy.
Very Biblical. I happened to really like the final episode. While it didn't wrap up the many mysteries, on an emotional/character level it felt like closure. Maybe a future Lost RPG will someday explain what the hell happened.
With regard to The Jade's theory:
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks for indulging me and for the link. :) Much appreciated.
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Very Biblical. I happened to really like the final episode. While it didn't wrap up the many mysteries, on an emotional/character level it felt like closure. Maybe a future Lost RPG will someday explain what the hell happened.
I don't really see the point of a Lost RPG. You have to make your own rules.
Maybe a future Lost RPG will someday explain what the hell happened.
I'll create ship to ship combat rules for a Dharma sub vs Widmore tanker naval battle.
Anyone want to work on the were-smoke template?
"Form of... a chimney!"
I pretty much agree with The Jade's view of it.
Them being dead explains why everything was cured.
It explains why no one could have a child. (Claire's baby, obviously, died when Claire died)
Richard was immortal because he died way back on the slave ship and when Jacob agreed to his immortality it simply made him stop having the false experience of aging.
There are lots of unknowns. And there is plenty of opportunity for things to be pointed out that I can't explain. Though I doubt anyone can explain everything that happened. And this is less than 24 hours after watching. I may significantly revise my opinion..... :)
But for now, that is how I see it
I'll get to work designing 15-, 16-, 23-, and 42-sided dice.
I pretty much agree with The Jade's view of it.
** spoiler omitted **
There are lots of unknowns. And there is plenty of opportunity for things to be pointed out that I can't explain. Though I doubt anyone can explain everything that happened. And this is less than 24 hours after watching. I may significantly revise my opinion..... :)
But for now, that is how I see it
I'll get to work designing 15-, 16-, 23-, and 42-sided dice.
Clevah! ;)
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The Lost finale was absolute drivel. I wasn't expecting anything from the show though, 'cause I got wary of shows that supposedly leave all the answers 'til the end when X-files bombed... I predicted such a crap ending many times but still watched with my wife "just to see it through". I guess they got me viewing that crap in the end, so JJ wins again I guess..
Does anyone remember where Jack was right after the initial plan crash and in what condition.
Does anyone remember where Jack was right after the initial plan crash and in what condition.
He woke up, stunned but otherwise intact, in the bamboo forest when Vincent ran by. Bookends.
Does anyone remember where Jack was right after the initial plan crash and in what condition.He woke up, stunned but otherwise intact, in the bamboo forest when Vincent ran by. Bookends.
Didn't he have a big gash on his back that he had to have Kate sew up?
Didn't he have a big gash on his back that he had to have Kate sew up?Does anyone remember where Jack was right after the initial plan crash and in what condition.He woke up, stunned but otherwise intact, in the bamboo forest when Vincent ran by. Bookends.
Separate point here, but you reminded me. Jack Shephard ran around with a big knife wound on the left side of his gut in the Lost finale, right? The very next night on the finale for 24, Jack Baur ran around with the exact same big knife wound in the very same place.
Bad week to be a Jack in a finale.
Didn't he have a big gash on his back that he had to have Kate sew up?
Gash was on other side...but when reflected in a mirror....
I was happy with the whole thing. Yeah most of it was nostalgia and music cues getting me all blubbery, but it had enough subplots wrapped up for me to say g'buy to the show.
Life is messy and most stuff doesnt add up. Sure, there are some HUGE mistakes the writers made throughout the run, but there were enough mysteries for me to think about even years later that I dont feel cheated in the end.
I still wish the 'church' thing at the end was the place where the pendulum was in the basement.
Separate point here, but you reminded me. Jack Shephard ran around with a big knife wound on the left side of his gut in the Lost finale, right? The very next night on the finale for 24, Jack Baur ran around with the exact same big knife wound in the very same place.
Bad week to be a Jack in a finale.
Nah. It's just a slash-fic crossover.
Snark aside, there are interesting parallels between the Jacks aside from their knife wounds.
Bauer==Farmer in German. Farmer and Shepherd are cognate roles in mythology - the people who take on enormous toils and burdens with little rest in sight for the greater good of the community.
Both tend to be ruthless in dealing with threats to the community.
** spoiler omitted **I pretty much agree with The Jade's view of it.
** spoiler omitted **
There are lots of unknowns. And there is plenty of opportunity for things to be pointed out that I can't explain. Though I doubt anyone can explain everything that happened. And this is less than 24 hours after watching. I may significantly revise my opinion..... :)
But for now, that is how I see it
As to the baby thing. I took at as one of Jacob's rules. Jacob wasn't a fan of children growing up on the island given his past, so much like the rule about not leaving and since he was in charge he made it so babies could not be born. Similar to how he disqualified Kate after becoming a mom. It is pretty explictly stated that Jacobs will as the protector is enforced by supernatural means.
As to the baby thing. I took at as one of Jacob's rules. Jacob wasn't a fan of children growing up on the island given his past, so much like the rule about not leaving and since he was in charge he made it so babies could not be born. Similar to how he disqualified Kate after becoming a mom. It is pretty explictly stated that Jacobs will as the protector is enforced by supernatural means.
Actually, I think this is more related to the Swan's Incident than to Jacob's Rules. After all, in 5x08 'LaFleur', Juliet (back in 1977) succeeds in helping Amy to give birth to Horace's son Ethan - which was effectively conceived on the Island. I remember Sawyer telling her (while she didn't want to try to help Amy, since she had never been able to help ANY woman of the Others to have a child) that 'Maybe the thing that doesn't make children born HAS NOT YET HAPPENED !'
This happened BEFORE the discovery of the Electromagnetic Anomaly, the Incident and the creation of Swan Station however - basically (IMHO) children could not born on the Island after'The Light' under the Island itself
was 'disturbed again' by the intervention of Dharma...
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Here is a post apparently from one of the shows writers (not the two main ones - Daman Lindloff and Carlton Cuse though - one of the other ones that worked on the show with them).
Pretty interesting. It certainly answers some of the finale questions people are having, such as what was the Sideways etc?
First ...
The Island:
It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.
Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet every time he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.
Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interfered by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.
Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Candidates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Candidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposely not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blatant.
Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.
In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...
Now...
Sideways World:
Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us during "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduism with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.
The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spiritual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.
It's a really cool and spiritual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.
How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosaic.
But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.
They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's partner, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).
A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to atone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Widmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.
But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.
For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.
In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spiritual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once wavered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
And awesome stuff, as always, from everyone on here over the past few years! You guys rock!
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I have to agree that the pregnant mother situation(fatalities in 2nd trimester) had to do with either the "incident" or the fact that Ben was on the island...whose own mother died in childbirth
My understanding is that it had to do with the Incident, which was Jughead's partial detonation / slow leak / whatever and how it interacted with the huge pocket of EM engery as shown in last season's finale. Women could have babies before that event, but not after.
Separate point here, but you reminded me. Jack Shephard ran around with a big knife wound on the left side of his gut in the Lost finale, right? The very next night on the finale for 24, Jack Baur ran around with the exact same big knife wound in the very same place.
Bad week to be a Jack in a finale.
Nah. It's just a slash-fic crossover.
Snark aside, there are interesting parallels between the Jacks aside from their knife wounds.
Bauer==Farmer in German. Farmer and Shepherd are cognate roles in mythology - the people who take on enormous toils and burdens with little rest in sight for the greater good of the community.
Both tend to be ruthless in dealing with threats to the community.
A sincere cinematic slow clap for that. Very impressive!
Here is a post apparently from one of the shows writers (not the two main ones - Daman Lindloff and Carlton Cuse though - one of the other ones that worked on the show with them).
Pretty interesting. It certainly answers some of the finale questions people are having, such as what was the Sideways etc?
** spoiler omitted **...
Interesting post. Where was it originally?
That is awesome about how they wrote the ending after the pilot, that is what kept me watching the show, the writers promised that they already had an end planned.
Has anyone seen the alternate endings? Do they add further insights?
The 'alternate' endings were spoofs of various other series finales. (Survivor, Newhart and one other, I forget what.)
Here is a post apparently from one of the shows writers (not the two main ones - Daman Lindloff and Carlton Cuse though - one of the other ones that worked on the show with them).
Pretty interesting. It certainly answers some of the finale questions people are having, such as what was the Sideways etc?
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm going to read this later on when I have more brain cells firing. Thanks for the thoughtful and relevant C&P, Mark.
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The 'alternate' endings were spoofs of various other series finales. (Survivor, Newhart and one other, I forget what.)That is awesome about how they wrote the ending after the pilot, that is what kept me watching the show, the writers promised that they already had an end planned.
Has anyone seen the alternate endings? Do they add further insights?
The Sopranos, if I'm not mistaken. I have a feeling they will be on the DVDs ...
Here is a post apparently from one of the shows writers...
I actually find this kind of frustrating. I love the show and I love the finale, but it feels that much of this should have been made apparent in the show itself. I trust that this was written by one of the show's writers because it does clarify an awful lot.
The thing is, they could have clarified some of this so easily. For instance,
The "mother" of Jacob and the MiB could have easily explained that the island keeps the balance of good and evil and that there were a long line of protectors, going back to the Egyptian days.
And so on and so forth.
What's frustrating is that they had the answers, but they just didn't bother to let us know about them. It reminds me of a DM with a great plot and fascinating villains, but those great plots and multidimensional villains are never really made privy to the players, and therefore largely fall flat.
I feel the show should be able to stand on its own, and yet it doesn't. We have to get explanations from outside sources, such as a writer.
I consider the show to be an unfinished masterpiece, much like those great myths of old in which we don't have complete manuscripts for. However, in this case, the truth is stuck in the heads of various individuals who helped create the show. I wish the writers could have included the audience more.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I agree. Both of the lines you suggest would have made things much more clear.
I also think that last cut of the crashed plane was a HUGE mistake. Why not just let the show end with Jack closing his eye? That's bringing the show full circle.
Showing the plane at the end reinfoced BOTH the mistaken impression that the Ajira plane had crashed AND the much more logical (but still wrong) theory that they all died in the plane crash.
Dumb.
Here is a post apparently from one of the shows writers...I actually find this kind of frustrating. I love the show and I love the finale, but it feels that much of this should have been made apparent in the show itself. I trust that this was written by one of the show's writers because it does clarify an awful lot.
The thing is, they could have clarified some of this so easily. For instance,
** spoiler omitted **
What's frustrating is that they had the answers, but they just didn't bother to let us know about them. It reminds me of a DM with a great plot and fascinating villains, but those great plots and multidimensional villains are never really made privy to the players, and therefore largely fall flat.
I feel the show should be able to stand on its own, and yet it doesn't. We have to get explanations from outside sources, such as a writer.
I consider the show to be an unfinished masterpiece, much like those great myths of old in which we don't have complete manuscripts for. However, in this case, the truth is stuck in the heads of various individuals who helped create the show. I wish the writers could have included the audience more.
Because it's not the type of show or film that is clear and spelled out, since the plot is only really there to hold the characters and theme there. That, and they literally only had so much screen time to take care of this stuff without outright spelling it out, and killing the mystery. Also, they didn't sweat it because DVD changes everything....the creators are no longer limited to the confines of TV episodes to tell the story and disseminate secondary information.
I also think that last cut of the crashed plane was a HUGE mistake. Why not just let the show end with Jack closing his eye? That's bringing the show full circle.
I agree. I figured they included this because the initial plane crash is what brought all the main characters together in the first place and bound their souls together. In some eastern religions, though, it's believed that one reincarnates again and again with the same people who just shift around how they interact, one being a parent in one life and a spouse in the next and then a child, etc. If one looks at the final "waiting to move on together" church scene in this light, then they were destined to run into one another anyway and the plane crash, and Jacob's influence, was just a manifestation of their already intertwined existences.
Because it's not the type of show or film that is clear and spelled out, since the plot is only really there to hold the characters and theme there. That, and they literally only had so much screen time to take care of this stuff without outright spelling it out, and killing the mystery. Also, they didn't sweat it because DVD changes everything....the creators are no longer limited to the confines of TV episodes to tell the story and disseminate secondary information.
I understand what your saying and I can appreciate ambiguity. However, it eventually comes down to: would it have been a better show if they had made various things clearer? I believe it would have. A murder mystery is not lessened by learning in the end who the murderer is. It's expected. True, this is a different kind of show, but for me, these clarifications would have increased my appreciation.
As far as screen time, a one sentence explanation of certain things would have been fine. They don't have to visually represent *everything*.
I still think the show should stand on its own. Adding DVD extras or even extending some of the scenes on the DVD doesn't really mean the show stood on its own. It means you have to buy the DVD to understand some of it.
I've kind of been arguing both sides of this. I defend the finale because I loved how it all resolved. However, I do think they could have made some things clearer and it would have increased the overall appreciation as to what was going on. In this case, I think they sacrificed overall satisfaction by making mystery the overpowering driving force behind the writing.
Pretty interesting. It certainly answers some of the finale questions people are having, such as what was the Sideways etc?
ABC have just announced that they put in the final image of the air crash as a time-marker before transitioning into the news and apologised for it, and that the production team had no idea about it before it happened. So that alone (not to mention the guy's terrible spelling) puts the claims of this person (who says the shot was there as a deliberate red herring) under some doubt.
Also, it's been said in the past that the creators of LOST had no idea on how to end the series until they got the end date in Season 3, long after JJ Abrams had anything to do with the show. So I think we can call BS on this guy's claims to being an insider.
That said, his theory is actually pretty good.
I also think that last cut of the crashed plane was a HUGE mistake. Why not just let the show end with Jack closing his eye? That's bringing the show full circle.
Showing the plane at the end reinfoced BOTH the mistaken impression that the Ajira plane had crashed AND the much more logical (but still wrong) theory that they all died in the plane crash.
As mentioned above, this was a mistake by ABC, who have apologised for it. The final shot of LOST is Jack closing his eye.
During the first season of BSG, a friend of mine was involved in the production of it. He's the one who got them to understand how military organizations work, or one of them. He was also a fairly regular player of my space combat games.
During Season 2, the episode The Captain's Hand, when Lee Adama gives the order to bring the top of the Pegasus out of the strafing pattern, the terminology is very very close to how you'd describe the three dimensional move in Attack Vector: Tactical.
The placement of the heat exchangers (the plot MacGuffin for that episode to give the former Chief Engineer a heroic death) is also straight out of one of my products.
I got a phone call after the episode aired from my friend saying that, yeah, that was as close as they could come to giving me an acknowledged Shout Out in the production room. He says that if we'd had our flight bases and magnet adapters out then, they SO would've used them in the prop department.
There was a huge change in the writing and production departments between Season 2 and Season 3, and another huge change between Season 3 and Season 4; basically the two 'room writers' with any chops whatsoever on science (and their science consultant) got let go.
I followed BSG's development pretty closely throughout its history and I never saw any 'big change' that you describe. Some writers like Anne Saunders departed the show and others like Jane Espenson came on later on, but there wasn't a big moment before Season 3 or 4 where writers were laid off in the fashion you describe. In addition, the two 'room writers' with chops on science and military terminology you describe are almost certainly Bradley Thompson and David Weddle (who both have military experience and worked out a lot of the Viper flight and combat terminology, the call signs, the stuff on the hanger deck and in the CIC and worked on how FTL worked etc), and they remained on the show for its entire duration. Similarly, the science consultant, Kevin Grazier, was on the show for its entire duration. Of the three of them, none was let go during the show's lifespan.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Gratifies me I'm not the only one who hated the end of BSG. I am glad I watched the last season, though, as the mutiny was worth it.
+1
The mutiny arc was amazing. The finale wouldn't have been terrible if they'd ended it right when the arrived in Earth orbit.
Okay, it still would've been pretty bad due to the whole "vision of Baltar and Six running with the baby turned out to be a whole lotta nothing" but that could've been more easily overlooked than "derh, let's throw away everything we fought so hard to preserve and go native."
I agree. Both of the lines you suggest would have made things much more clear.
I also think that last cut of the crashed plane was a HUGE mistake. Why not just let the show end with Jack closing his eye? That's bringing the show full circle.
Showing the plane at the end reinfoced BOTH the mistaken impression that the Ajira plane had crashed AND the much more logical (but still wrong) theory that they all died in the plane crash.
Dumb.
According to the LA Times, the producers didn't add the plane crash wreckage at the end. ABC did.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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That is gratifying.
I fully believe that they intended to end the show with Jack closing his eye, and I even believe that the last scene was all of them going to Heaven together.
The cynical conspiracy theorist in me finds it almost impossible to imagine that they had the 'sideways reality' in mind during the first season.
In fact, I suspect that fans called them out on the Purgatory thing in the first season, they panicked and said "the island isn't Purgatory" (even though they probably originally conceived it as such) so as to keep people interested, and only wove the Purgatory thing back into the narrative once the show came to an end.
I believe they were all supposed to Live Alone/Die Together from the very start. But let's remember Ben was originally signed for only three episodes, and there is no way in Hell they went into this show expecting to run 6 seasons.
I understand what your saying and I can appreciate ambiguity. However, it eventually comes down to: would it have been a better show if they had made various things clearer? I believe it would have. A murder mystery is not lessened by learning in the end who the murderer is. It's expected. True, this is a different kind of show, but for me, these clarifications would have increased my appreciation.
As far as screen time, a one sentence explanation of certain things would have been fine. They don't have to visually represent *everything*.
I still think the show should stand on its own. Adding DVD extras or even extending some of the scenes on the DVD doesn't really mean the show stood on its own. It means you have to buy the DVD to understand some of it.
I've kind of been arguing both sides of this. I defend the finale because I loved how it all resolved. However, I do think they could have made some things clearer and it would have increased the overall appreciation as to what was going on. In this case, I think they sacrificed overall satisfaction by making mystery the overpowering driving force behind the writing.
Respectfully, I disagree. The mystery wasn't the driving force behind the writing. It was a compelling backdrop, but it was primarily about the characters, and how they grew and changed via the hardships faced on the island. There were some great, great story arcs in there, especially Sawyer, Ben, Hurley, and Locke. The secondary focus in LOST was the exploration of the certain themes that we saw over and over again: good vs evil (especially what defines those), fate vs free will, how people are connected, etc.
Skeld summed this up really well above: The island, Dharma, and all the bells and whistles are great backdrop, but that's ultimately all they are. This show is about the journey that the characters underwent, the destination isn't the be-all, end-all.....it's not like Richard Kimball never finding the one-armed man. Also, keep in mind that a lot of the ambiguity is INTENTIONAL on the part of the creators, like the writer says above, when talking about Dharma's purpose on the island:
"That's a question that is purposely not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself."
But, I can understand some people having trouble with a Miniplot story like LOST. Robert McKee DOES say, the further you get away from Archplot, the smaller the audience gets......
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Here is a post apparently from one of the shows writers (not the two main ones - Daman Lindloff and Carlton Cuse though - one of the other ones that worked on the show with them).
Pretty interesting. It certainly answers some of the finale questions people are having, such as what was the Sideways etc?
** spoiler omitted **...
Awesome.
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I agree. Both of the lines you suggest would have made things much more clear.
I also think that last cut of the crashed plane was a HUGE mistake. Why not just let the show end with Jack closing his eye? That's bringing the show full circle.
Showing the plane at the end reinfoced BOTH the mistaken impression that the Ajira plane had crashed AND the much more logical (but still wrong) theory that they all died in the plane crash.
Dumb.
I think I'm the only person I know who thought the crash shots at the credits were simply show-off frames of an awesomely well-done airplane crash--I didn't think they had anything to do with the end.
How would you turn Lost into an RPG?
For me, it would be unsatisfactory to go back to Oceanic 815's island. Do you make up another island? Do you even need to keep with the island theme? Maybe there is a mystic source hidden somewhere else. Leylines? Stonehenge? The Pyramids?
Do you drop the electromagnetic properties and use something else?
Nevermind me. I am just thinking online.
How would you turn Lost into an RPG?
...well, for the Alternate Reality, at least...
Actually, you can use it also for the Island's Whispers !!!
That is gratifying.
I fully believe that they intended to end the show with Jack closing his eye, and I even believe that the last scene was all of them going to Heaven together.
The cynical conspiracy theorist in me finds it almost impossible to imagine that they had the 'sideways reality' in mind during the first season.
In fact, I suspect that fans called them out on the Purgatory thing in the first season, they panicked and said "the island isn't Purgatory" (even though they probably originally conceived it as such) so as to keep people interested, and only wove the Purgatory thing back into the narrative once the show came to an end.
I believe they were all supposed to Live Alone/Die Together from the very start. But let's remember Ben was originally signed for only three episodes, and there is no way in Hell they went into this show expecting to run 6 seasons.
That is what I've been thinking as well. I think fans nailed their big secret during the first couple years and the writers initiated a plot pool splash fight to obfuscate and get clear of the issue for a regroup. The awkwardness of the sideverse seemed to me to be a loose fitting fixer valve. Not getting all the answers is fine, of course, but the most major questions about the island's magic, the questions many of us most cared about weren't answered. They went on the narrative's back burner in favor of newly created questions and answers.
If one begins with the premise that the writing and production team changed course mid stream for the good of keeping fans interested and guessing, the hazy explanations they propose at the end don't hold all that much water. Those who think I'm wrong, good on ya. I'm just experiencing a sideverse of my own where the Imperial Hollywood ministry of information tells us one thing that many of us can't believe and we're set upon by official answer loving loyalists. Me and my kind then grab our typewriters and take to the hills to form a resistance (Why not our laptops? Because there's no electricity up in the hills and a typewriter makes for one hell of an improvised weapon in a pinch).
And (tongue firmly in cheek) I don't think Robert McKee would suggest that the people who feel misled by the writing team were part of a majority group who only orders the archplot lover's pizza at Pizza Hut. ;) Shows like Lost and X-files suggest big supernatural answers are coming and they attract people who want big supernatural answers. If those answers never come, fans tend to get annoyed. Perhaps because it's possible to say everything you want to say during such shows and still answer your mysteries.
Purgatory, limbo, what have you... that premise throughout would have made every plot point interlock quite gracefully, without confusion or debate. But honestly, if I was in charge of such things and fans called my big secret so quickly, I would have done the same thing they did and tried to refit the metaplot. I thought those guys may have switched paths a few years ago, but I thought they'd move in a more Tommyknockers direction. Survey says! BLEEEEEE. I'm sorry, but thank you for playing.
Before the second season aired Stephen King accepted an invitation to meet some big fans of his, the creators of Lost. He shows up to the meeting, says how he loves the show, then asks, "It's purgatory, right?" They sat frozen for a moment, smiled and offered him a season one DVD box set. Doesn't prove anything one way or the other, but it's a colorful scene. You can see what show creators had to deal with early on.
Okay... speaking for me, moving on.
What shows might I use to fill the now vacant Lost slot? Any recommendations for high quality spec fic TV programs I may have missed? Shows now off the air still count. I can just pick up the box set or watch some of them on Netflix.