Kensai magus build advise

I am considering making a kensai magus, maybe bladebound kensai magus, and would like to take advantage of the ridiculous number of attacks of opportunity that a kensai eventually gets. Ideally, I would use a katana or scimitar (I can probably convince my GM to let me take an "improved weapon finesse" instead of dervish dance, or just pay for an agile weapon), but I'm not married to either weapon. I would also consider a fauchard, but don't think two-handed reach weapons would work well with a magus' spell combat and/or spellstrike. Any suggestions for how I can maximize my use of attacks of opportunity with a kensai?

I am considering making a kensai magus, maybe bladebound kensai magus, and would like to take advantage of the ridiculous number of attacks of opportunity that a kensai eventually gets. Ideally, I would use a katana or scimitar (I can probably convince my GM to let me take an "improved weapon finesse" instead of dervish dance, or just pay for an agile weapon), but I'm not married to either weapon. I would also consider a fauchard, but don't think two-handed reach weapons would work well with a magus' spell combat and/or spellstrike. Any suggestions for how I can maximize my use of attacks of opportunity with a kensai?

If you want to maximize your AoO, go with a Whip. Yes you will deal less damage, but with Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery, you'll get 10 ft. reach (15 ft. reach when enlarged), which means lots of AoO for you! (Don't forget that the whip is a finesse weapon, so you could disarm and trip, using your dex bonus instead of your str bonus, during an AoO.)

Edit: Oh yes and the best thing about it. You can STILL take bladebound. Yes I know it's weird but look at this:

And guess what... the whip is a one-handed slashing weapon!

Edit2: Oh yes, and let's not forget your 15 ft. reach with your normal attacks... Because that is so sweet, you can conduct your touch attacks through it!

Reach would be the most important way, either through a reach weapon or Enlarge of similar magic. The more reach you have/room you take up on the battlefield, the harder it is for enemies to get around you.

If you have party members you know will be spellcasters, advise them that they need to look into spells like grease, stone call, web, etc that can funnel enemies down into a narrow area.... ideally, one your standing in calmly waiting for the rush hour traffic to pass through :)

Spell Combat does call specifically for one handed weapons... other then a whip/scorpion whip, I'm not aware of any of those in Pathfinder that have reach, however....

edit: Ninja'd by Darkorin about whips :)

I considered a whip, but it's not my cup of tea. I want a high crit range weapon, like a scimitar, katana or fauchard. Any suggestions for how I can maximize AoO with some type of sword or polearm (if a polearm even works with spell combat and spellstrike)?

Any suggestions for how I can maximize AoO with some type of sword or polearm (if a polearm even works with spell combat and spellstrike)?

Well... polearms do not work with spell combat. The only other way is to try to get the Combat Patrol feat, but you'll need quite a lot of feat to get it, and you'll lose the advantage of the Kensai archetype (since you'll be too busy taking dodge,mobility, combat expertise AND Combat patrol, instead of weapon focus/spec/etc...)

It's rather infuriating that a kensai, a "sword saint" would have trouble taking advantage of one of his primary abilities without a sword.

It's rather infuriating that a kensai, a "sword saint" would have trouble taking advantage of one of his primary abilities without a sword.

There is a big difference between taking advantage and Maximizing. Here you asked about Maximizing AoO.

If you want another possibility, I guess that you could go Step Up, Following Step and Step Up and Strike.

You could also use your magus arcana to get Disruptive and later take the Spellbreaker feat.

Beware the Lunge feat would NOT work in order to increase your number of AoO.

Optimizing for AoO isn't really the way to go with Kensai. A non-spell strike attack with your weapon doesn't do much damage at all. I would worry about taking as many attacks you can on your turn.

I use an Aldoi Dueling Sword with my Kensai. The Crit Range isn't as good as a Scimitar, but I liked the flavor a lot better. Wand Wielder Arcana with a level 5 wand of Shocking Grasp is a beautiful thing.

If it's available Tiefling is PERFECT for Kensai. +2 DEX/+2 INT/-2 CHA, then take the Prehensile Tail feat/alternate racial trait and use it to grab different wands and/or pearls of power, added to the Favored Class bonus of 1/6th Arcana per level.

D'arandriel wrote:

Any suggestions for how I can maximize AoO with some type of sword or polearm (if a polearm even works with spell combat and spellstrike)?

Well... polearms do not work with spell combat. The only other way is to try to get the Combat Patrol feat, but you'll need quite a lot of feat to get it, and you'll lose the advantage of the Kensai archetype (since you'll be too busy taking dodge,mobility, combat expertise AND Combat patrol, instead of weapon focus/spec/etc...)

actually, couldn't you use a small sized polearm for one-handed-ness or take a 3 level dip into phalanx soldier (fighter) archetype? the latter would require you to use a mithral buckler or the like, but you'd have a hand free to use your spells (without having to go all mad scientist and sprout superfluous limbs, yuck) with i think.

I really didn't want to dip at all, but if I did, I considered both the phalanx fighter or the titan mauler to use a polearm one-handed. My preference is to use a katana, but it doesn't seem like there's any way to truly maximize all of the kensai's AoO with a katana.

I realize that the AoO won't do nearly as much damage as a spellstrike, but I think if I have that many attacks, I may as well use it to my advantage as often as possible. It certainly doesn't hurt.

Though it really is done to death, dervish dancer with a Kensai just seems like the best way to go.

You can't wear serious armor as a Kensai, so you might as well just go full dex crazy and rely on that to be your primary physical stat, and getting the Dex for DMG at 3rd level really helps solidify things compared to waiting till level 5+ for a +1 Aldoi Sword with Agile. And that's if your gm's not snowballing you on items. DD is just more reliable.

Also I recommend staying away from Blackblade with Kensai,regardless of build, unless you're starting later level. It will be a pain to have reduced casting, reduced pool size, and 2 Arcana slots filled up(3 by the blade, 9 by kensai). Early levels will be super hard as it is, don't need to make them harder.

I realize that the AoO won't do nearly as much damage as a spellstrike, but I think if I have that many attacks, I may as well use it to my advantage as often as possible. It certainly doesn't hurt.

Why are you trying to force the kensai to do something it's really not designed to do? If you want to be an AOOer, go fighter (you can even dip a couple levels of kensai for flavor if you really want). But if you want to be a kensai, focus on what he's good at.

And it hurts in that you waste resources to for a mediocre ability rather than boosting abilities that are actually quite potent.

I really didn't want to dip at all, but if I did, I considered both the phalanx fighter or the titan mauler to use a polearm one-handed. My preference is to use a katana, but it doesn't seem like there's any way to truly maximize all of the kensai's AoO with a katana.

I realize that the AoO won't do nearly as much damage as a spellstrike, but I think if I have that many attacks, I may as well use it to my advantage as often as possible. It certainly doesn't hurt.

titan mauler could also grab the Quick Reflexes rage power for an extra AoO as well. its a shame the archetype doesn't stack with urban barbarian, or you could dex rage for even more via combat reflexes (you can still grab quick reflexes on urban, but that sorta defeats the purpose of dipping barb if youre not gonna get the one-handed polearms for the idea).

Why are you trying to force the kensai to do something it's really not designed to do? If you want to be an AOOer, go fighter (you can even dip a couple levels of kensai for flavor if you really want). But if you want to be a kensai, focus on what he's good at.

And it hurts in that you waste resources to for a mediocre ability rather than boosting abilities that are actually quite potent.

I didn't think I was trying to force a kensai to do something its not designed for, otherwise why have the superior reflexes class ability. It's an ability that practically begs to be used as often as possible (combined with Combat Reflexes for a truly obscene number of AoO). However, it is looking more and more that this is not something that can be pulled off without a whip or one handed reach weapon. The whip just goes against my own preference and the one handed reach weapon would require a 2-3 level dip. It's a consideration. Would really like to find a way to do this with a sword and no dip into any other class, but that seems unlikely.

Would really like to find a way to do this with a sword and no dip into any other class, but that seems unlikely.

If you're goal is to make an AOOer, why are you so set on Magus? The class just doesn't lend itself to this playstyle. I don't think superior reflexes begs to be used as often as possible. It's just a nice bonus the archetype gets that's sorta thematic (or at least the designer thought so), and when it comes up, cool. But building around it is just wasteful. Taking combat reflexes on top of it would indeed give you an obscene number of AOOs. And they would be totally irrelevant 99.9% of the time. And after you spend your feats/dips, etc to actually do the AOOs, your damage on them is going to be rather meh. And you won't have the feats to be an AOO trip machine like the fighter.

Honestly, I think Kensai itself is really subpar. Pushing spell progression back a level on an already slow progression class is painful, especially since most of the abilities you get can mostly be replicated with feats. (except canny defense, that is awesome, but not worth the spells imo)

small sized polearm wouldn't take any dipping, and if you really wanna do sword AoOs you could go for lunge/combat patrol, but its rather feat intensive.

also, the phalanx fighter dip would cost you three levels of magus progression (which paired with the reduced casting from kensai actually kinda hurts), but you'd have the same BAB, your for fort would go up 1, will would go down 1, and reflex would stay the same, and you'd lose out on an arcana, greater spell access (OUCH), and true magus.

in exchange you get two feats (which can be used to help mitigate your losses, such as the extra arcana feat), +1 cmd against four types of maneuvers, and the ability to wield your polearm in one hand (provided you had a buckler).

EDIT: looking at the skill description, they do indeed stack.

EDIT-EDIT: one issue here is that to use the polearm onehanded via phalanx fighter, you lose out on canny defense from kensai, which seems kind of a dealbreaker to me.

now that i think on it, the phalanx fighter bit might be better suited to a spire defender instead, but that's not at all what your'e aiming for.

Vestrial wrote:

Why are you trying to force the kensai to do something it's really not designed to do? If you want to be an AOOer, go fighter (you can even dip a couple levels of kensai for flavor if you really want). But if you want to be a kensai, focus on what he's good at.

And it hurts in that you waste resources to for a mediocre ability rather than boosting abilities that are actually quite potent.

I didn't think I was trying to force a kensai to do something its not designed for, otherwise why have the superior reflexes class ability. It's an ability that practically begs to be used as often as possible (combined with Combat Reflexes for a truly obscene number of AoO). However, it is looking more and more that this is not something that can be pulled off without a whip or one handed reach weapon. The whip just goes against my own preference and the one handed reach weapon would require a 2-3 level dip. It's a consideration. Would really like to find a way to do this with a sword and no dip into any other class, but that seems unlikely.

If you do not wish to change your weapon to get reach then you'll need to change something else instead, I'd recommend your shape.

Honestly, I think Kensai itself is really subpar. Pushing spell progression back a level on an already slow progression class is painful, especially since most of the abilities you get can mostly be replicated with feats. (except canny defense, that is awesome, but not worth the spells imo)

Really? cause I think it is the best one by far.

The option of hitting for full DMG on any atk? Fighter feats at level -3 and full level for crit focus? Int to confirmations? Can make AoO's without even having his weapon drawn? Dex and Int on intiative? Eventually getting 20 on all of init checks and is NEVER suprised? In addition to all the canny defense, weapon mastery, and otherstuff, it's a really solid archetype that's basically a fighter on crack.

It's not the spell savy battle-caster the normal magus is, but if that's what you're looking for there were argueably better options than the magus anyways.

The option of hitting for full DMG on any atk?

If using a bastard sword this ability is worth approximately 5.5 damage.

Fighter feats at level -3 and full level for crit focus?

The fighter -3 thing is cool. Weapon Specialization, etc. Very nice. Whether it's as nice as the spell slots, and getting the higher level spells a level earlier is subjective, but to me it's not close. I'll take the slots/spells.

Int to confirmations?

Cool, but unerring weapon can more or less it.

Can make AoO's without even having his weapon drawn?

Cool if you get caught off guard a lot, I guess. In the last three years of play, this would have been useful for me maybe 3 times. Spell slots are useful every day.

Dex and Int on intiative? Eventually getting 20 on all of init checks and is NEVER suprised?

You can only go first. Going more first doesn't help. And at lvl 13 he gets a 1st level wizards ability? At the cost of being able to learn 14 free wizard spells? Ok.

In addition to all the canny defense, weapon mastery, and otherstuff, it's a really solid archetype that's basically a fighter on crack.

Canny defense and weapon mastery are good. Weapon mastery comes when the game is over, though. And it's definitely not a fighter on crack. It's a watered-down fighter who exchanges bab, hd, and feats for spells.

It's not the spell savy battle-caster the normal magus is, but if that's what you're looking for there were argueably better options than the magus anyways.

Straight magus is amazingly good at what it does (arguably too good). I think trying to build it like a fighter with spells will end up being a disappointing experience.

If using a bastard sword this ability is worth approximately 5.5 damage.

Doing this instead of casting (another) shocking grasp for 5d6 (at level 3), which is worth 10.5 damage. And shocking grasp scales much, much better than your weapon die type.

I'll agree it's comparatively weaker if you view it like that, but you can increase the crit multiplier for 2 points on a crit(in addition to the 1 for full dmg). These 2 abilities may seem not that great, as you pointed out they don't help the kensai with sustained DPR, but it does help him Nova. And those 5, 10, or 20 points can be the different between your enemy going down and staying up long enough to get an attack on you.

The Kensai isn't about sustained magical combat, its about killing an enemy dead before it can kill you back, and then being basically a fighter after that.

The fighter -3 thing is cool. Weapon Specialization, etc. Very nice. Whether it's as nice as the spell slots, and getting the higher level spells a level earlier is subjective, but to me it's not close. I'll take the slots/spells.

Simply differing opinion, you said yourself it's subjective.

Cool, but unerring weapon can more or less it.

But a kensai's is always on, doesn't require a prepared spell, and doesn't require a cast at all which saves on economy.

Cool if you get caught off guard a lot, I guess. In the last three years of play, this would have been useful for me maybe 3 times. Spell slots are useful every day.

Happens fairly the time in the games I've played. More importantly it allows you to abuse it yourself, such as walking up to someone out of combat wait for them to do something to let their guard down and AoO them hard to initate combat.

You can only go first. Going more first doesn't help. And at lvl 13 he gets a 1st level wizards ability? At the cost of being able to learn 14 free wizard spells? Ok.

But it guarentees first as where simple initiative mods can still be flubbed by a bad roll. It also give you an action in a suprise round(which doesn't always happen when you're jumped).

And imo, the Magus gets most of the best Wizard spell list anyways(for what he can access in spell levels anyways) so getting the rest of his list of even more niche spells while good isn't needed for a more combat oriented

Canny defense and weapon mastery are good. Weapon mastery comes when the game is over, though. And it's definitely not a fighter on crack. It's a watered-down fighter who exchanges bab, hd, and feats for spells.

And how is that a bad thing? First, canny defense along with some clasic bracers & headband of intellect can give the Kensai a simply stupid high AC. Secondly with your enhancement and arcane pool, you hit at more than full BAB anyways. And the slightly lower HD(5.5 vs 4.5) is mitigated by the Kensai's ability to kill things way before they can kill them.

Straight magus is amazingly good at what it does (arguably too good). I think trying to build it like a fighter with spells will end up being a disappointing experience.

I agree the vanilla magus is great, but imo the Kensai is a really good option and I think a lot of people would agree.

I think you and I place a different weight on their spells/abilities. I agree the normal magus can sustain longer and has a bigger bag of tricks, but I believe that a Kensai can Nova better & at the end of the day when both magi are out of spells, the Kensai simply has a more reliable bag of tricks to sustain himself than a traditional magus.

Regardless, I respect your opinion. It just differs from my own and I don't think we're going to change either of eachothers. This will be the last I say on the matter as to not derail the thread.

I'll agree it's comparatively weaker if you view it like that, but you can increase the crit multiplier for 2 points on a crit(in addition to the 1 for full dmg). These 2 abilities may seem not that great, as you pointed out they don't help the kensai with sustained DPR, but it does help him Nova. And those 5, 10, or 20 points can be the different between your enemy going down and staying up long enough to get an attack on you.

The straight magus is about nova'ing too. He just does it more times per day than the kensai. Because every time the kensai burns one or more points of arcana, that's one more intensified (and/or empowered) shocking grasp for the magus to cast.

What you said about the rest of the abilities basically boils down to 'In certain (some highly contrived) situations, they are very cool.' I totally agree. When you get the rare opportunity to use some of them, it will be awesome, and everyone at the table will be like 'Sweet!' But spell slots and spell recall alone are useful every single combat.

I agree canny defense is amazing for a magus. If you want to build a defensive duelist type, kensai with two levels of MOMs would be pretty sick. Crazy AC, awesome saves, crane and snake for avoidance/counterattack. Yeah, that could be fun.

yeah kensai with the whole canny defense is sexy and if i had to give a recommendation, especially if you can crank up your AC to whacky proportions, it would be the full Panther Style tree and maybe some Snake Style. Nothing says hack & slash like Panther Style. ding.

I would bet the Kensai can have one of the highest AC's in the game. The majority of my Kensai's damage (he's 10th level now) comes from wands, making the 1 less spell slot pretty irrelevant.

I would bet the Kensai can have one of the highest AC's in the game. The majority of my Kensai's damage (he's 10th level now) comes from wands, making the 1 less spell slot pretty irrelevant.

Really? Is your DM just super generous with wands, or have you blown most of your wealth on them? In either case, if you're relying on wands, you're doing less damage than a pure magus would be at 10th level. (which is fine if your goal is to be super tanky. But if you want to do damage the spell slots and spell recall are very relevant)

Jodokai wrote:

I would bet the Kensai can have one of the highest AC's in the game. The majority of my Kensai's damage (he's 10th level now) comes from wands, making the 1 less spell slot pretty irrelevant.

Really? Is your DM just super generous with wands, or have you blown most of your wealth on them? In either case, if you're relying on wands, you're doing less damage than a pure magus would be at 10th level. (which is fine if your goal is to be super tanky. But if you want to do damage the spell slots and spell recall are very relevant)

I suppose, but with wand wielder/mastery you can definitely make effective use of them.

Really? Is your DM just super generous with wands, or have you blown most of your wealth on them? In either case, if you're relying on wands, you're doing less damage than a pure magus would be at 10th level. (which is fine if your goal is to be super tanky. But if you want to do damage the spell slots and spell recall are very relevant)

Shocking Grasp is a 1st level spell. A 5th level wand of shocking grasp is around 3k. Let's say with that 3k the straight magus buys 3 pearls of power. You'll have what, say 10 1st level spells (including the pearls)? Let's assume you blow all 1st level spells on shocking grasp. You'll have a whopping 4 extra attacks at 10d6 if the Kensai blows their 6 1st levels all on Shocking Grasp. The Kensai will still have 50 5d6 attacks to make that day when the "regular" Magus is out of 10d6 shocking grasp. They'll also be able to use that 5d6 attack when a full Nuke isn't needed. Your way it's full nuke or nothing, meaning for the minor encounters the straight magus is doing less damage.

All things being equal, the difference is very minor, and the Kensai might actually make up for it by getting fighter feats early. Sure they lose 1 10d6 attack, for an average of 35 damage a day, but every time they swing the do an extra 4 points with Greater Weapon Specialization. 9 hits in a day and they've just surpassed the Magus.

Shocking Grasp is a 1st level spell. A 5th level wand of shocking grasp is around 3k. Let's say with that 3k the straight magus buys 3 pearls of power. You'll have what, say 10 1st level spells (including the pearls)? Let's assume you blow all 1st level spells on shocking grasp. You'll have a whopping 4 extra attacks at 10d6 if the Kensai blows their 6 1st levels all on Shocking Grasp. The Kensai will still have 50 5d6 attacks to make that day when the "regular" Magus is out of 10d6 shocking grasp. They'll also be able to use that 5d6 attack when a full Nuke isn't needed. Your way it's full nuke or nothing, meaning for the minor encounters the straight magus is doing less damage.

All things being equal, the difference is very minor, and the Kensai might actually make up for it by getting fighter feats early. Sure they lose 1 10d6 attack, for an average of 35 damage a day, but every time they swing the do an extra 4 points with Greater Weapon Specialization. 9 hits in a day and they've just surpassed the Magus.

You're overlooking spell recall, which effectively doubles the number of grasps he has for the day, and the two arcana you blew to use those wands (which can give him the AC bonus for a round when needed, plus all his attacks for a round as touch, so when it really counts, he doesn't miss).

Also, he's not just doing 10dice grasps at level 10. He'll be doing 15dice grasps with his 3nd level slots (empowered, intensified), and a quickened normal in a 4th level slot. (assuming he's going balls-out kill mode today). And he can get any of those back with 1 point from his pool. Meanwhile, late in the day, the kensai is out of spells and has no option but his wands.

Also, on a non-damage angle, utility spells are worth way more on a straight magus. In a pinch he can invis his entire party from one spell slot, he can cast multiple shield's per day from one spell slot, mitigating that AC difference, plus he will have two 4th levels spells, so he can even GInvis himself and the rogue if he's feeling generous, and bring them back if needed later.

Yeah, in easy fights the kensai will be doing more dpr with his weapon specialization and PA (but less than a fighter). On easy fights, meaning the irrelevant ones. When it actually counts, the straight magus will blow the kensai out of the water, and he's more versatile.

Kensai is decent sustained dpr, and great defensively. I think kensai lends itself more to the dex build than str, though. If you're using 3.5 stuff: 3 swashbuckler, 2 moms (Crane, snake, panther), rest kensai. dex & int to damage and ac, counterattacks out the wazoo. lol, fun stuff... ;)

You want lots of AOO's as a Kensai?

Well it wouldn't be available till level 14 for a Kensai but PINDOWN is awesome for AOO's.

Maybe go the step up, following step, step up and step up and strike?

@Vestrial - I think we both agree where the strengths of each build lay there are just some things I wanted to clarify: It only takes 1 arcana, Wand Wielder, Shocking Grasp doesn't really care about your INT. You're also doing 4 points of extra damage per swing, considering that you get 3 swings per round at 10th level, that's an extra 12 damage. That goes a long way towards mitigating the extra 5d6 a sraight magus might get. Finally stats, Every +2 to DEX gives the Kensai +1 to hit, +1 to Damage, +1 to AC. It's a much less MAD than straight Magus. So yes you do lose some versatility, but you gain the ability to tank.

Also, he's not just doing 10dice grasps at level 10. He'll be doing 15dice grasps with his 3nd level slots (empowered, intensified), and a quickened normal in a 4th level slot. (assuming he's going balls-out kill mode today). And he can get any of those back with 1 point from his pool. Meanwhile, late in the day, the kensai is out of spells and has no option but his wands.

I thought you could just recover straight spells, not metamagiced ones.

I thought you could just recover straight spells, not metamagiced ones.

Only Heighten Spell actually changes the level of a spell. Otherwise, metamagic only changes the slot expended. The Spell Recall ability only charges pool points based on the actual level of the spell. Thus, you can recall a Quickened Intensified Shocking Grasp for 1 point.

Thats exploit -.- Everybody know that if they are srs

Thats exploit -.- Everybody know that if they are srs

Uh, I don't consider it an exploit at all. *shrug*

Thats exploit -.- Everybody know that if they are srs

How is it an exploit? It's precisely how the ability works.

It's been a while since I've done one of these, but how about something like...

(Assuming a human kensai character)

Feats:
1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes (B), Weapon Focus (B)
3 Combat Expertise
5 Snake Style, Improved Trip (B)
7 Snake Sidewind
9 Snake Fang
11 Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp (B)

... with that sort of build by the time you get your superior reflexes class feature you're getting an AoO every time an opponent attacks you in melee and misses, and two AoO every time you trip an opponent (one for the trip via Greater Trip, and one for him falling prone via Vicious Stomp). So potentially one AoO for every attack the other guy makes, two when you trip him, and another when he stands back up. A lot of these will be unarmed strikes, not sword attacks, of course.

If you just want to burn through your AoO doing something with them (rather than specifically attacking with them) then the Bodyguard Feat from the APG is worth a look.

Alternatively, take the Broken Wing Gambit teamwork Feat and hire a lot of mercenaries who've taken it as well...

EDIT: Just to expand a bit, the above build also assumes you take the maneuver mastery (trip) arcana. So when the bad guys attack you the routine hopefully goes: they miss (thanks to the nice high AC a kensai should have by that point), triggering your Snake Fang (unarmed strike used to trip) AoO, you use that to trip the guy, triggering your Greater Trip (full-on sword attack) and Vicious Stomp (kick 'em when they're down insult to injury unarmed strike attack) AoO, not to mention interupting the other guy's attack routine. Then, if they try to get up or move away they trigger another (sword, one assumes) AoO.

Oh, and never buy bracers of armour if the campaign has haramaki (with their 0% arcane failure chance) available.

Thats exploit -.- Everybody know that if they are srs

I firmly agree. I just can't believe how many exploits are still in the game. The other day, I saw a Fighter hitting things with a greatsword. In the very same party was a Wizard casting spells and a Rogue who cheesed his way into a flank just so he could do more damage. It was appalling. All these power gamers are using their class features as written without even a thought for playing the game srsly; makes me sick.

Take a 2 or 4 level dip into monk. Go master of many styles and get yourself crane style feats for free. If you plan on going 4 levels you can also take the other monk option (forget the name sorry at work and no books atm but it allows you to switch out monk abilitys for some spell like abilities.) that allows you to take bark skin at 4th.

What this does for the kensi is create a supper defensive character. You are now using Wisdom, Dexterity and Inteligence for bonuses to your AC. Crane style gives you more dodge bonus to your ac, the 2nd feat in the chain is a free "parry" of a melee attack. Not the first attack of the round but any attack at any time during the round you can choose to say nope I block it no roll or anything. Add to that bark skin ability you become a very hard to hit person.

Of course the build suggestion I posted above is based on the 'maximise AoO' premise of the thread. The core of the build is just the 'trip' Feat chain.

If building a character from level 1, for example, a human Magus (Kensai or not) could do a lot worse than taking Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as their level 1 Feats. Such a character can trip as their attack, then use Spell Combat for a melee touch attack spell and hit their (now prone and easier to hit) opponent, plus they can use their (one) AoO on the guy if and when he tries to stand or move away.

The other key thing to remember is that Shocking Grasp and the like (i.e. single touch melee touch attacks) are generally sub-optimal choices for a Magus. For example...

Shocking Grasp does a basic maximum of 5d6 damage, or an average of 17.5 points of damage. Even with the most generous interpretation of the way Metamagic Feats interact, an Empowered / Intensified / Maximised Shocking Grasp does at most 60 +5d6 damage, or an average of 77.5 points (and takes a basic level 7 spell slot, so without some further resources above and beyond simply taking the relevant Metamagic Feats is out of reach of even the most powerful Magus anyway).

Frostbite, on the other hand, has no level cap on bonus damage (inflicting 1d6 + caster level non-lethal cold damage) and can be used for one touch per caster level. So by the time the Shocking Grasp is giving you 5d6 damage for your first level spell slot, Frostbite is giving you 5d6+25, spread over 5 seperate touches, and is inflicting the fatigued condition (with no saving throw to resist either). Frostbite already looks good in comparison.

A level 11 Magus (for example) gets two attacks, plus an extra if they use Spell Combat for a melee touch attack spell. Assuming a totally vanilla attack routine by the Magus, and three hits, the Frostbite is inflicting 3d6+33 (average 43.5) damage that round (seperated across the three seperate hits), and still has 8 of its 11 touches left to use. That's already better than both a vanilla Shocking Grasp (17.5 average) and an Intensified Shocking Grasp (35 average). Plus, you know, the fatigue condition which can't be saved against...

Assuming the Magus has gone the Greater Trip route, then the Frostbite does even better: one touch on the trip attack (using the Magus's weapon, of course), one touch on the AoO that triggers from the trip, two as he hacks at the prone enemy, and likely another on the AoO if and when that enemy tries to stand or move away. That's 5 touches in one round, or 5d6+55 damage (average 72.5, 20 better than the 52.5 average of an Empowered / Intensified Shocking Grasp). Plus fatigue he can't save against. Plus the Magus still has 6 of his 11 touches left...

Against multiple opponents, the Magus could trip and AoO three of them (likely two AoO on each - one AoO for each trip, one for each of them trying to get up or move). That's 9 touches in the round, or 9d9+99 damage from that level 1 spell (average of 130.5, better than an Empowered / Intensified / Maximised Shocking Grasp). Plus fatigue for all three. Plus he's still got 2 touches left on his spell.

Being non-lethal damage is generally a bonus (live prisoners to question and or ransom after the battle is usually a good thing; if not, then you get to the try out that deadly quality on your katana...). It drops the bad guys out of combat just as quickly as lethal damage. The only drawbacks are against opponents who don't take non-lethal damage (but you can spot them by the time you're playing at level 11, right?), and if the bad guys have an active healer (but you know to take them out first by the time you're playing at level 11, right?). At 1d6+11 damage per touch cold resistance of 15 or greater is an issue (but this isn't the only spell you'll be using, and you can spot the cold resistant bad guys by now, right?).

The general principle is that spells which allow multiple melee touch attacks are much better for a Magus than ones which only allow one touch. Chill Touch is the other really nice level 1 spell (despite the name it does negative energy damage, not cold damage, and has the potential for sapping Strength - although the opponent gets a save, and he'd need to fail that against at least 4 such touches to match the 4 point Ability Score loss which the fatigued condition imposes).

The other advantage of Frostbite is that it's a cold damage spell - and the Rime Spell Metamagic Feat is very nice. With one second level spell slot our level 11 Magus could get 11 attacks where he knocks the bad guy prone and inflicts both the fatigued and entangled conditions on him at the same time.

This advice - to go for multiple touch spells rather than single touch spells - goes double for a character like our proposed Kensai who is trying to get in as many attacks as he can each round. After all, you're not likely to be casting more than one spell a round whatever you do, and something like Frostbite or Chill Touch on every attack beats Shocking Grasp on one attack every time.

IMHO, YMMV, yadda-yadda-yadda... :)

Trouble with non-lethal is heal 1 hit point and it all goes away. Do 130 points of damage, 1 potion of cure minor woulds and you just did zero damage. Ring of regeneration, fast heal, and damage resistance gets doubled. There are a lot of downsides to frostbite.

Trouble with non-lethal is heal 1 hit point and it all goes away. Do 130 points of damage, 1 potion of cure minor woulds and you just did zero damage. Ring of regeneration, fast heal, and damage resistance gets doubled. There are a lot of downsides to frostbite.

Not true...

Healing Nonlethal Damage

You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Not true...

Healing Nonlethal Damage

You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Whoops you're right, that must be a house rule my GM used that I mistook for a real rule. Apologies.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Seems that regeneration doesn't remove non-lethal damage either...

Looks like you seem to be using a house rule

LazarX wrote:

I thought you could just recover straight spells, not metamagiced ones.

Only Heighten Spell actually changes the level of a spell. Otherwise, metamagic only changes the slot expended. The Spell Recall ability only charges pool points based on the actual level of the spell. Thus, you can recall a Quickened Intensified Shocking Grasp for 1 point.

All metamagic changes the effective level of the spell. The level change doesn't factor into the spell DC, but a Silenced Fireball is still a fourth level spell.

Oh, and never buy bracers of armour if the campaign has haramaki (with their 0% arcane failure chance) available.

Not an option for the kensai build. No armor means NO ARMOR.

ProfPotts wrote:

Oh, and never buy bracers of armour if the campaign has haramaki (with their 0% arcane failure chance) available.

Not an option for the kensai build. No armor means NO ARMOR.

Just because they aren't proficient with the armor does not mean they can't wear it. They just suffer the arcane spell failure and armor check penalty for it, which in this case is zero.

Lord Pendragon wrote:

LazarX wrote:

I thought you could just recover straight spells, not metamagiced ones.

Only Heighten Spell actually changes the level of a spell. Otherwise, metamagic only changes the slot expended. The Spell Recall ability only charges pool points based on the actual level of the spell. Thus, you can recall a Quickened Intensified Shocking Grasp for 1 point.

All metamagic changes the effective level of the spell. The level change doesn't factor into the spell DC, but a Silenced Fireball is still a fourth level spell.

They wont believe you. They want to play their own powerhouse.

Of course the build suggestion I posted above is based on the 'maximise AoO' premise of the thread. The core of the build is just the 'trip' Feat chain.

If building a character from level 1, for example, a human Magus (Kensai or not) could do a lot worse than taking Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as their level 1 Feats. Such a character can trip as their attack, then use Spell Combat for a melee touch attack spell and hit their (now prone and easier to hit) opponent, plus they can use their (one) AoO on the guy if and when he tries to stand or move away.

The other key thing to remember is that Shocking Grasp and the like (i.e. single touch melee touch attacks) are generally sub-optimal choices for a Magus. For example...

Shocking Grasp does a basic maximum of 5d6 damage, or an average of 17.5 points of damage. Even with the most generous interpretation of the way Metamagic Feats interact, an Empowered / Intensified / Maximised Shocking Grasp does at most 60 +5d6 damage, or an average of 77.5 points (and takes a basic level 7 spell slot, so without some further resources above and beyond simply taking the relevant Metamagic Feats is out of reach of even the most powerful Magus anyway).

Frostbite, on the other hand, has no level cap on bonus damage (inflicting 1d6 + caster level non-lethal cold damage) and can be used for one touch per caster level. So by the time the Shocking Grasp is giving you 5d6 damage for your first level spell slot, Frostbite is giving you 5d6+25, spread over 5 seperate touches, and is inflicting the fatigued condition (with no saving throw to resist either). Frostbite already looks good in comparison.

A level 11 Magus (for example) gets two attacks, plus an extra if they use Spell Combat for a melee touch attack spell. Assuming a totally vanilla attack routine by the Magus, and three hits, the Frostbite is inflicting 3d6+33 (average 43.5) damage that round (seperated across the three...

I appreciate the advise. Thank you. I considered a trip build and incorporating snake style, but I had never even considered frostbite or chill touch. I think it's really good, especially for a kensai.

LazarX wrote:

All metamagic changes the effective level of the spell. The level change doesn't factor into the spell DC, but a Silenced Fireball is still a fourth level spell.

They wont believe you. They want to play their own powerhouse.

That, or we can read.

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot.

Not 'in some ways,' in ALL ways. Spell recall explicitly states spell level. They could very easily have put 'one point per level of spell slot' instead. There is no question, RAW, you are wrong. If you think it's OP, by all means houserule it.

The general principle is that spells which allow multiple melee touch attacks are much better for a Magus than ones which only allow one touch.

Is there some special rule that exempts these spells from the holding a charge rule? Normally you cannot cast another spell while holding a charge, so you drop to one attack per round until the spell is expended. (except for AOOs as you say)

Is there some special rule that exempts these spells from the holding a charge rule? Normally you cannot cast another spell while holding a charge, so you drop to one attack per round until the spell is expended. (except for AOOs as you say)

If you cast another spell the remainder of your allowed touches are lost, yes. That doesn't drop you to one attack per round though (unless you're talking a Magus with a BAB less than +6 who doesn't manage to get off any AoO that round, then sure - one attack it is).

Magus builds are often based around the concept of spamming Spell Combat and Spellstrike with a melee touch spell (even a cantrip) each and every round to get an 'extra' attack, but that's hardly the be-all and end-all of building a Magus character, and the thread was about getting the most utility out of AoOs. If spamming for the extra attack is the core of the build then take the Close Range arcana so you can at least do it all day with Ray of Frost and Disrupt Undead. The same tactic with Shocking Grasp spells is going to drain your resources at record pace, which is the big danger when playing a Magus in the first place. The Wand Wielder arcana helps you a bit, but you're then dropping gp each and every round of combat (and only coming out on top DPR-wise if you're getting less attacks in each round with your Frostbite or Chill Touch enhanced weapon than the number of dice your single-shot Shocking Grasp is managing to churn out - which is exactly what our AoO themed Magus is trying to avoid).

Of course, you have two rounds of attacks to use up all the touches generated by your multiple touch melee attack spell before you even hit the problem because with Spell Combat you can either attack first or cast first. So you cast the spell in round 1, get the free attack, get the rest of your full attack, and get any other AoO you can. Round 2, if you have touches left over, you can get in your full attack (and any AoO you manage to generate whilst doing so) then, if needs be, cast another melee touch attack spell and get in your free attack.

So yes, you may get in a situation where you have to decide between casting again and losing any touches you have remaining, or not casting and keeping the touches going, but it's not going to crop up as often as you'd imagine, especially if your character is built around generating multiple AoO.

As always, YMMV... :)