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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Pathfinder Unchained (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Pathfinder Unchained (OGL)
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Get ready to shake up your game! Within these pages, the designers of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game unleash their wildest ideas, and nothing is safe. From totally revised fundamentals like core classes and monster design to brand-new systems for expanding the way you play, this book offers fresh ideas while still blending with the existing system. With Pathfinder Unchained, you become the game designer!

Pathfinder Unchained is an indispensable companion to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 15 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder Unchained includes:

  • New versions of the barbarian, monk, rogue, and summoner classes, all revised to make them more balanced and easier to play.
  • New skill options for both those who want more skills to fill out their characters' backgrounds and those seeking streamlined systems for speed and simplicity.
  • Changes to how combat works, from a revised action system to an exhaustive list of combat tricks that draw upon your character's stamina.
  • Magic items that power up with you throughout your career—and ways to maintain variety while still letting players choose the "best" magic items.
  • Simplified monster creation rules for making new creatures on the fly.
  • Exotic material components ready to supercharge your spellcasting.
  • New takes on alignment, multiclassing, iterative attacks, wounds, diseases and poisons, and item creation.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-715-4

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

Hero Lab Online
Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop
Archives of Nethys

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A book full of concepts, most if which are great.

4/5 —

The description of Unchained hardly does it justice, this thing is brimming with tweaks & "hacks" that put so much more balance into the core game its staggering.

For better or worse all the classes from the 4 taking center stage (Rogue, Barbarian, Monk, Summoner) in the opening chapter to entire subsystems that bring the Fighter up in a much needed way (stamina), Several varrying magic systems that can slightly nerf spell casters so those in melee feel less useless (limited magic, wild magic, fumble magic, esoteric materials), several ways to simplify play (simplified spellcasting, spell attack rolls, alternative skill systems, alternative alignment) every class can be touched or tweaked in some way to bring things more in line with fewer balance issues overall.

Best part aside from the Summoner (if you play pathfinder society) it is all optional!

Even many ideas that I saw as less than ideal were presented in a way that can be used to streamline so many things, especially from a GM standpoint. The monster creation system is Amazing! For players the variant multi-classing is much easier to contend with than current level dipping to qualify for prestigie classes.

Sure a few hiccups occasionally sneak in that can be nit picked about (many monk archetypes are invalid, ki pool no longer a rogue option, severely limited Eidolon) but as a whole I am so glad I got this, it turned a weeks worth of game planning down to a day or 2, helped one of my less than stellar mathematicions get the Barbarian concept they wanted without constant questions being addressed mid battle & made skills & spells less if a pain to explain to the new girl.

You may love this book, or you may want your money back...

3/5 —

To the hardcore Pathfinder player, there's a lot to like in this book. To a lot of other more casual players, you might find it hard to get $40 worth of gaming from this book.

The main draw to Pathfinder Unchained for a lot of players will be the revision of 4 of the games classes - the barbarian, monk, rogue and summoner. I'm a big fan of what Paizo did with all 4 classes and their revised iterations immediately make them all more interesting to play in my opinion (despite the significant griping many players have about the summoner being less moldable into certain concepts).

However, if you're the kind of tabletop player who wasn't vibing roleplaying a barbarian, monk, rogue or summoner - then this part of the book really doesn't do anything for you if you weren't planning to play those classes. If your wheelhouse is playing clerics, oracles, alchemists, wizards and sorcerers, this book doesn't really have anything for your characters that most other core line books would have (that is, more feats/spells/archetypes). This book would sit on your shelf if you were not planning to play those classes.

Expanding on this, there's a lot of small sections on variant rules. There's a few pages a piece on variant skill systems. There's a few pages on changing how crafting/profession skills work. There's a few pages on a variant multi-classing system (that is more like 5e than 3.5e). There's a section on how to play games without alignment. There's a section on removing iterative attacks. There's a section on wound thresholds. Basically, there's a lot of sections for your GM to read over and possibly tinker with your home game for a campaign or part of a campaign. Which is to say -- there's not a lot a player actually needs to have if the group's main GM can communicate about the rule he wants to try out, and I imagine most GMs will try out one of these alternate systems at a time and could simply do a 1-page handout of the variant.

So, players will have a hard time deriving the value of $40. If you're not playing one of the 4 revised classes, I could see the book being worth $0 to you, and you'd probably rather spend your money on dice, minis, or a couple Player Companion books.

Which brings us to another point - Organized Play. Because the 4 variant classes are all legal for Organized Play (in fact the new Summoner is the mandated replacement for the old APG Summoner), I would've thought the benign Paizo we all know and love might have released the 4 variant classes as a free PDF, or perhaps have implemented a rule that if you are playing an unchained version of the class, you don't actually need to personally own Unchained. Essentially, while you can play the original barbarian, monk or rogue without owning a single book, now if you want to play their more interesting counterparts, you'll need to pony up to own this material (unless the powers/organizers/GMs in your locale ignore the "own it to play it rule"). However, I can see the business decision by Paizo to not release the unchained classes as freely available since the sheer revenue generator by having PFS players need to "upgrade" to the book is likely a critical part of their 2015Q2 revenue.

So, this book is mixed. It's a solid 4 stars for revising 4 classes into arguably more playable forms.

The tweaks to the barbarian are fairly minor (you'll give up some damage and the need to take Raging Vitality at higher levels in exchange for easier math).

The tweaks to the rogue slap on more power - free finesse, free Dex to damage, conditions applied to your enemies and better mastery of skills. I can actually see some GMs disallowing this rogue, it's almost too good.

The tweaks to the monk give it a full BAB and built-in ki and styles. Once again, I can see some GMs thinking the revision are too good as well - the only downside being that it invalidates a lot of archetypes (thankfully, zen archer is one of them).

The tweaks to the summoner likely don't eliminate the perma-ban a lot of home campaigns employ. The class still is breaking the game's action economy and the amount of time a summoner player needs to take their turns (most eidolons will still have a ton of attack rolls to make, and the summoner can still summon replacement monsters as a standard action). Thankfully, they are back to standard level spells and some of the most egregious balance violators (i.e. pounce at 1st level) have been patched up.

All-in-all, there's some interesting stuff here, but I don't think the game delivers on the value of a typical Paizo $40 hardcover to the average Pathfinder player. This is a book you might want your GM to own. And at most tables playing APs or campaigns, you may not even need the book. Monks are pretty solid before this book was released. Barbarians the same. Summoners are still likely in the ban-camp, so for a lot of groups it's $40 to upgrade the rogue class. Likely you can skim the online PRD for the changes that are in this book and come up with how it would be implemented in your group as this won't be a book that you're constantly reaching for to flip through like most other books in the core line (to read up on spells, feats, items, etc).

Pathfinder's Unearthed Arcana?

5/5 —

Normally the TL;DR is at the end of the post, but since this review is long I put it up front:

If you like Pathfinder, you've been playing it for a while and you enjoy tinkering with the system, buy this book! It has a wealth of options, optional systems and alternate takes on just about anything in the game, including a complete rewrite of the action system, three different revised skill systems, a simplified magic system, a streamlined create-your-own monster system, and a great many other tidbits. Unchained is absolutely worth the price!

When I first started to write this review, I wanted to go through each chapter and write a few sentences about each subsystem, to give you an idea of how they work and how I feel about them. That idea crashed and burned when I was halfway through chapter 2, and ran face first into Paizo’s (generous) word limit for reviews. That left two and a half chapter which I couldn't fit in a single word for. Suffice to say that there is a lot of material to dig through here! I also found that I was trying to digest and summarize way too much material at once, which led to me making more mistakes than I'm comfortable with. Since that approach failed miserably, I figured I’d instead give a very brief overhead of what each chapter contains, and describe in more detail the systems my party is going to be using in an upcoming adventure path since those are the ones I've spent the most time studying.

One other thing I should mention before starting the in-depth review. For those concerned after the ACG debacle, I’m happy to say that I’ve found very few mistakes in this book, and the few I found were extremely minor - from what I can tell this book has been well edited. They got the cover right too!

Chapter 1: Classes
There are four new takes on existing pathfinder classes: Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, and Summoner. There’s also a Fractional Base Bonus system, and Staggered Advancement. The latter breaks each level into several mini-levels, which makes “gaining a level” feel less abrupt.

We’ll be using all the new classes, but we’ll still allow the old barbarian (but with the new temporary HP mechanic) and monks in play. The new barbarian is an improvement over the old one in many ways, but I kind of miss barbarians gaining strength from rage instead of an attack & damage bonus. The old monk is still allowed simply because the new monk is quite different, and there are a number of monk archetypes that aren't compatible with it. The new rogue is a straight upgrade from the old one, an addition I am very happy to see. We never used the old summoner, so that was never really an issue. I’m curious to see if the new summoner will prove problematic though!

We’ll be using fractional base bonuses, which help multiclassed characters better balance out their base attack and base save bonuses.

Chapter 2:Skills and Options
There are three new subsystems to handle skills. Background skills, consolidated skills (more compact skill list, combines many skills), and grouped skills (pick skill groups instead of investing in individual skills). There’s also an alternate crafting and profession rules (with a business subsystem for enterprising characters!), and a new version of multiclassing.

We’ll be using Background skills, which grants each character 2 extra skill points that must be used in “background” skills. These are a very minor boost to character power, but adds tons of character flavor. Finally you can put ranks in Profession: Sailor in a desert campaign without feeling like you’re punishing yourself!

We’ll also be using Skill Unlocks, a new system that allows you to gain new ways to use skills as you put more ranks in them - for example being able to use acrobatics at full speed by increasing the DC by 5 rather than 10. These are overall fairly small changes, but they’re interesting and they reward characters and classes who invest heavily in skills.

Finally, we’ll be using variant multiclassing! In this system you give up half your feats to multiclass with another class. Every other feat you’d normally earn, you instead get a class feature from that class! This opens up a massive amount of new character concepts and class combinations, and is much more friendly to spellcaster multiclassing - who traditionally frown on anything that means they lose caster levels or spell slots. The Oradin can now be built single-class!

Chapter 3:Gameplay
This chapter has a wealth of options that we did not use this time around, simply because we didn't have time to get familiar with them and we didn't want to introduce a massive system change without playtesting it just before starting a six-month AP. New subsystems here include options to change or remove alignment from the game, a revised action economy model that completely restructures how combat flows, an option for combining iterative attacks into a single roll, stamina and combat tricks, wound thresholds, and a new disease and poison system.

Though no one is currently playing a fighter, we’ll be implementing the stamina system. It gives the fighter (and possibly other martial classes if they invest a feat and the GM greenlights it) a Stamina pool, and he gains a new option with every combat feat he learns. He spends stamina to do a combat trick, with tricks written for (from what I can tell), every combat feat found in the CRB, APG, UM, UC, ARG, and the ACG. Examples include passive bonuses such as being able to take Combat Expertise without meeting the INT 13 requirement and active bonuses such as being able to benefit from Mounted Combat twice in a round, or use Spring Attack as a standard action.

We’ll also be using Wound Thresholds, which gives creatures escalating penalties to attacks, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, as well as armor class and caster level as they take damage and lose HP. This helps avoid the “238 HP lost and I’m at peak efficiency, 241 HP lost and I’m unconscious” paradox, which can at times break immersion rather badly.

Finally, we'll be using a revised system for handling diseases and poisons. At the request of the GM I haven’t read these very closely, so all I really know is that it makes diseases more virulent, and most diseases have become more lethal. I’m more than a little nervous about what he has in store for us, the diabolical laughter from the other side of the GM screen does not bode well.

Chapter 4:Magic
This system has a lot of interesting material (notice a theme here?) specifically dealing with how magic functions and alters the game. There is a lot to take in here. Simplified Spellcasting changes spellcasting by making all low level spells (relative to your caster level) cast out of a pool, easing the homework of high level spellcasters quite a bit. Spell Alterations has four mix-and-match spell variants. These are Limited Magic (a kick in the nuts to primary spellcasters if ever I saw one), Wild Magic (always popular!), and Active Spellcasting, which makes spellcasting more interactive and engaging by allowing you to overclock spells, use spell attack rolls (you roll attacks instead of making the opponent roll saves), and critical hits and spell fumbles. Esoteric Material Components (multiple systems completely changing how material spell components work), Automatic Bonus Progression and Innate Item Bonuses (two different approaches to fixing the Big 6 problem where players always use the same generic magic items), scaling items (items that level up in power with the character!) and finally Dynamic Magic Item creation, which makes creating magic items less of a one-man pursuit and more of a party task that everyone can try to help out with. Out of these we’ll be using Wild Magic (because it’s Wild Magic!), and Automatic bonus Progression.

Wild Magic events are triggered whenever a caster fails a concentration check, whenever a spell effect is dispelled or counterspelled, or a really desperate spellcaster can trigger one intentionally. There is of course a D100 table with a list of wild magic effects, ranging from “the spell takes effect at a random location” to “a shatter spell affects a 5-foot radius around each target of the spell” to “an instrument appears adjacent to each target as if casting Summon Instrument”. Ever since I first played a wild mage in AD&D I’ve always loved the idea of wild magic, so this was a welcome addition. The only thing I miss here are some “wilder” effects - most of the entries are a little on the tame side compared to the truly bizarre things that could happen in previous editions. That said, I hope and expect the community will homebrew their own lists soon!

The Automatic Bonus Progression takes the bonuses granted by the big 6 (magic armor, magic weapon, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, headband of mental stat, belt of physical stat), removes the items that grant these bonuses from the game, and give out the bonuses automatically as characters level up. Surprisingly, this is the system I am looking forward to using more than anything else in Unchained, because it loosens the stranglehold certain items had on specific gear slots. When was the last time you saw anyone using the Shawl of the Crone in their shoulder slot, or the Belt of Dwarvenkind? Being able to pick up a cool magical cloak without worrying that you now can’t wear a cloak of resistance, or strap on the phylactery of channeling without getting annoyed that you can’t progress your spellcasting stat is a great improvement!

Chapter 5:Monsters
The entire fifth chapter, 59 pages, is dedicated to an impressively comprehensive yet streamlined system taking you through the steps to make your own monsters from the ground up. I’ll be dead honest here: We probably won’t use this. The average age in my group is late 20s to early 30s, with jobs, girlfriends, vacation homes, and all that that entails. The time we have available to play games is limited, and time spent homebrewing tends to cut into that, so we usually play in Golarion and run APs. Truth be told, we’re lucky we get to game as much as we do. Therefore this section is of limited interest to us. With that said, I think this system has the potential to be a great boon for the homebrew community and players who have the time to tweak and brew the way we once used to!

Conclusion

I’d like to think that Unchained has something for everyone. There's a myriad of options ranging from small minor quality of life subsystem changes (background skills) to major system changes that will effect every aspect of the game (Limited Magic, the Revised Combat system). If you combine the right subsystems with the mythic rules set you’re 80% of the way to a genuine superhero game. If you use automatic progression combined with Limited Magic, you have a fairly good starting point for the ever elusive successful Low Magic campaign. It’s obvious that a lot of care and attention to detail has gone into making this book.

I think Pathfinder: Unchained is well worth picking up, and have my fingers crossed for Pathfinder Unshackled in the future!

Neat ideas and some usefull rules

5/5 —

So just got this in and had a chance to read it.

From what I've seen it is a neat mix of ideas. Some of them I'm not a big fan of (the action economy system), but other I like (scaling magic items).

That all being said it is nice to see some optional rules that alter how the core concepts of the game operate.

Hopefully we will see Paizo using this type of format to try to tweak other parts of the game.

A Missed Opportunity

2/5 —

OK, I have only had a chance to briefly look through much of the volume, and I have mainly concerned myself with the unchained monk, seeing as how I've largely been involved with monk discussions.

Let me say that conceptually, the monk is my favourite class. Sadly, the crunch of the monk has never matched the fluff or the promise, something that was clearly conceded in the decision to make it part of the unchained classes.

So what did I think of the new monk?

Well let me start by outlining what (in my opinion) the monk's major problems were:

1) MADness. The monk is the most multi-attribute dependent class in the game with no exceptions. He needs way to many good scores to function, and spreading his scores makes him suffer.

2) Enhancement. The monk's primary weapon, the unarmed strike, struggles to get enhancement. The only viable option is the amulet of mighty fists, and it suffers not just from price, but from it's total +5 limit of enhancement bonus plus properties.

Essentially, the monk's primary problem as a combat class is actually hitting and damaging his target - a pretty big problem for a combat class. This problem exists as a combination of smaller factors add up: his 3/4 BAB, his lack of enhancement, his MADness, etc. Getting through DR is problematical as well - the monk's ki-strike is useful, but not actually better than the ability to bypass DR that a magic weapon provides via it's enhancement bonus.

The monk's other problems of abilities that do not mesh well together were originally addressed in the qinggong archetype. His concept as a mobile fighter who has to stand still to fight effectively is also a big problem.

So how did Paizo do?

Well, they made some useful changes.

Full BAB - OK, I would not have recommended this, but it does ease the MADness just a little, and improves the odds to hit slightly. Minor plus.

New Flurry Mechanic - I had no issue with the old one, but the new one, well it's better if you are fighting a high-AC target, worse if you are fighting a low AC target. I would rate this a minor plus as well.

Weapon Proficiencies - AT LAST THE MONK IS GOOD WITH ALL MONK WEAPONS! OK, most of them suck, but he can use them all without blowing feats. Minor plus.

MADness - no change. The monk, other than now needing maybe slightly less Con than he did, is just as MAD as ever.

Enhancement - no change, ki-strike is the same as ever, and still not good enough.

Saves - Will save nerfed. Major minus. WTF? Paizo, guys, you had a WEAK CLASS. You said it yourselves. It makes no sense conceptually or mechanically to nerf the monk in any way. You just gave with one hand and took with the other, and that makes no sense. If you want to improve a weak class, you make it stronger, not shuffle things around.

New Ki powers - nice, well organized, but we already had some of these with the archetype. It's good to get abundent step at a level where you can actually go down the Dimensional Dervish road, but otherwise there's not much that thrills me. Abilities the monk used to have as "constant" now require ki to activate, and ki didn't get a boost so it's an even more starved resource than before. No change.

New combat abilities - some of these are pretty cool, flying kick especially as it actually addresses the monk's move/flurry inconsistency. This is a well deserved addition. Minor plus.

My overall impression...the monk is still a weak class. I'm sorry, but if you want an unarmed fighter then the brawler still pounds the monk flat and spits him out with ease where it counts - only now, the monk can't really claim to have less weaknesses than the brawler, either. It almost makes it, but the monk's biggest problems are still unresolved, and while there are some nice improvements here, there is at least one bad nerf to go with them. This was a missed opportunity, Paizo, and I'm left feeling depressed over my favourite class.

Again.

These changes really should have been thrown open to play-testing and feedback.

Other Stuff
I did manage a quick look at the rogue, and my feelings on that are mixed as well. I liked the Weapon Finesse at 1st level, but I think that was a mistake. Rogues could get Weapon Finesse as a rogue talent, it makes much more sense to give them a talent at first level, and make the dex-to-damage ability a talent as well. I say this because the most notable rogue I have seen played was a burley half-orc with a falchion as his main weapon, who'd get nothing out of these changes.

I do like the emphasis on skills, but I think more could have been done to make the rogue effective when he's not sneak attacking - generally his biggest problem.

I haven't had a chance to review much else, I wanted to get my thoughts here. I've rated the product a 2, on the basis there may be a lot of good stuff I have missed. Very, very disappointed in the new monk, though. Loads of flash...not enough substance, and why or why the nerfing?

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Insain Dragoon wrote:

Actually I would prefer if they make a summoner that's more like the Master Summoner.

These classes are "unchained" so I want to see new and innovative takes on the concepts that are actually unchained from 3.5 and 3.P

Rogue without Sneak attack
Barb without Rage
Monk without Flurry and abilities with contradictory playstyles
Summoner that specializes in summoning magic and augmenting summons

Problem with master summoner is that it really slows down play to a crawl. If they could make it work, great. And if they could make the "summon monster" aspect as rewarding as using the ediolon, that'd be awesome. But honestly, the eidolon was such a cool aspect to the class that I'd hate to see it completely gutted in favor for a something akin to animal companions. To me, it'd be boring and sad to see such cool mechanics abandoned in favor of something that's already been used for other classes.

Does the summoner need some balance work? Yes, definitely. I just don't want to see one of my favorite innovations in 3.5 gutted because of that.
1 person marked this as a favorite.

Has Paizo stated anywhere whether these classes will replace material ALA MRP, or are they simply new classes like the ACG classes that have new names?

Once this book comes out is the old Summoner and Barb going to disappear?

If not, then I don't care too much where Paizo directs these new ones because the classes I know and love still exist.

So far all evidence points towards all these classes being optional rewrites.
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Odraude wrote:
I can think of many people I know that would firebomb Paizo HQ if 2Ed were announced ;)

Sadly I'm not sure you're mistaken.

Sometimes treating a game like SERIOUS BUSINESS wears more than a little thin. :/
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Has Paizo stated anywhere whether these classes will replace material ALA MRP, or are they simply new classes like the ACG classes that have new names?

Once this book comes out is the old Summoner and Barb going to disappear?

If not, then I don't care too much where Paizo directs these new ones because the classes I know and love still exist.

So far all evidence points towards all these classes being optional rewrites.

GMs will see these revamps version and chances are, they will probably use these newer ones. Why wouldn't they? Not only will they be free on the PFSRD, but it's taking a problematic class like the summoner and make it easier to deal with for GMs. GMs tend to be harder on banning casters than martials. So I'd be hard-pressed to find a GM to allow the older style summoner if the new "balanced" version exists that guts my favorite aspect of the summoner. And if I'm a GM, that does me no good since I'm not playing a summoner character.

All I'm saying is that I want the eidolon to remain an option. If this new summoner can have that option, be better balanced with a better spell list, and even have the option for augmenting summons like you want, then I'd be really happy. But given how much JJ despises the summoner, I'm not exactly holding my breath for it.

Well fortunately for us this isn't the Golarian group, so Jason and Stephen will be handling these.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Well fortunately for us this isn't the Golarian group, so Jason and Stephen will be handling these.

JJ still helps with rules and such. He did a lot of work with the Swashbuckler for the ACG coming out.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm being a downer. The other stuff sounds awesome. But the summoner is one of my favorite classes and I'd hate to see what I love about it removed. Having played though when GMs only allowed DnD Essentials instead of 4ed PHB 1, 2, and 3, I'm concerned about this. It's the nature of GMs.

I feel for you man :( didn't think far enough ahead to realize some GMs would do that. For your sake and fun's sake I hope that these new classes are as fun as the originals.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
I feel for you man :( didn't think far enough ahead to realize some GMs would do that. For your sake and fun's sake I hope that these new classes are as fun as the originals.

Amen to that. For those that don't understand, think of it this way. Pathfinder is 3.5 compatible, but how many GMs do you know of actually allow 3.5 material? I think I'm the only GM in my area that uses 3.5 stuff (and even 3.0 stuff... but I don't think Advanced Bestiary counts ;) ).

James Jacobs wrote:

Yah, we use non-core material all the time in our modules and Adventure Paths. It's more or less an absolute requirement, in fact... we're currently working on AP #17 after all, and keeping things fresh and interesting after so many campaigns demands using more than just what's in the Core Rulebook.

Just how the elements of Pathfinder Unchained get picked up and used in our adventures, though... that's something we're still figuring out. We'll see!

And not just that, sometimes you guys use third party content in your APs!

An example would be the:
Flayed Angel from Frog God Games Tome of Horrors IV in Wrath of the Righteous part 5.

Speaking of Advanced Bestiary... You excited for the Pathfinder Advanced Bestiary?

Link in case you weren't aware
Contributor

Hey Jason / Stephen / Mark, was it mentioned whether the new "Unchained" classes are going to maintain backwards compatibility with existing Pathfinder material? Specifically archetypes?
Contributor
Odraude wrote:

GMs will see these revamps version and chances are, they will probably use these newer ones. Why wouldn't they? Not only will they be free on the PFSRD, but it's taking a problematic class like the summoner and make it easier to deal with for GMs. GMs tend to be harder on banning casters than martials. So I'd be hard-pressed to find a GM to allow the older style summoner if the new "balanced" version exists that guts my favorite aspect of the summoner. And if I'm a GM, that does me no good since I'm not playing a summoner character.

All I'm saying is that I want the eidolon to remain an option. If this new summoner can have that option, be better balanced with a better spell list, and even have the option for augmenting summons like you want, then I'd be really happy. But given how much JJ despises the summoner, I'm not exactly holding my breath for it.

I'm sorry that you like the summoner as-is. Honestly, there are parts that I like about it too. Synthesist Summoner is an awesome way to handle iconic characters who go through a form change (Power Rangers, He-Man, Sailor Moon, Eren Yaeger). I would miss that if it was gone. But making a personal attack on James isn't likely to get your point across any better than just stating your hopes and fears without the insult.

That wasn't a personal attack in any way. Jason has been on record in multiple threads stating that he does in fact dislike the Summoner and informing us that it's banned at his table.

How did you interpret "But given how much JJ despises the summoner, I'm not exactly holding my breath for it" as a personal insult?
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Alexander Augunas wrote:
Odraude wrote:

GMs will see these revamps version and chances are, they will probably use these newer ones. Why wouldn't they? Not only will they be free on the PFSRD, but it's taking a problematic class like the summoner and make it easier to deal with for GMs. GMs tend to be harder on banning casters than martials. So I'd be hard-pressed to find a GM to allow the older style summoner if the new "balanced" version exists that guts my favorite aspect of the summoner. And if I'm a GM, that does me no good since I'm not playing a summoner character.

All I'm saying is that I want the eidolon to remain an option. If this new summoner can have that option, be better balanced with a better spell list, and even have the option for augmenting summons like you want, then I'd be really happy. But given how much JJ despises the summoner, I'm not exactly holding my breath for it.

I'm sorry that you like the summoner as-is. Honestly, there are parts that I like about it too. Synthesist Summoner is an awesome way to handle iconic characters who go through a form change (Power Rangers, He-Man, Sailor Moon, Eren Yaeger). I would miss that if it was gone. But making a personal attack on James isn't likely to get your point across any better than just stating your hopes and fears without the insult.

It's not an attack nor an insult. There are several posts where he states that does not like the summoner. He has good points, like the spell list being reworked. Some spells the summoner gets early enough to make wands of. Wands of teleport is kind of crazy. But he also wants to remove the eidolon in favor of an outsider companion similar to the animal companion. And for me, that would really kill the summoner. So it's not like I'm saying he's a terrible person. I'm saying he has more pull in the company than some random schmuck on the internet, and if he wants to gut the eidolon like he has posted several times on these forums, the rules team is going to consider his opinion greatly.

I understand the balance issues the summoner causes. But, I'd rather see the balance problems with the eidolon fixed, not completely gutted. Though JJ's issues with the eidolon also stem from the fact that the player has control over what the eidolon is, which can be at odds with a game setting and verisimilitude. Personally, I don't have a problem with that and have that built into my setting to account for it.
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The coolest part of the Eidolon is that you actually customize it. I'd rather see the spell list gutted than customization killed.

Also the player having control over how his Eidolon manifests shouldn't be at odds with the game setting because it's the character whos CREATING a body for a disembodied outsider.
Silver Crusade
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Jason and Stephen will be handling these.

And Mark!

Mark Seifter wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Pathfinder Unchained must be the absolute coolest thing to walk into for a newly hired designer. I can't imagine how cool it must have been for Jason and Stephen to say, "Hey, welcome to the office! Have a seat, we're just tinkering with the ENTIRE WORLD'S PERCEPTION ON HOW TO PLAY PATHFINDER. No pressure."
Yeah that meeting was...extremely exciting. I'm really looking forward to getting my hands dirty with Unchained--this kind of stuff is right up my alley and plays to my strengths in a way that my minor contributions to the end of the Monster Codex cycle did not!

I would guess that the goal for the summoner is to make something that Paizo can actually use in an AP - the Rivals Guide is the only thing I can think of that actually had statted up summoners. Otherwise, Paizo stays the hell away from the things as NPCs or opponents.

I would also welcome a GM-friendly version of the summoner that actually uses the eidolon.
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Insain Dragoon wrote:

The coolest part of the Eidolon is that you actually customize it. I'd rather see the spell list gutted than customization killed.

Also the player having control over how his Eidolon manifests shouldn't be at odds with the game setting because it's the character whos CREATING a body for a disembodied outsider.

EXACTLY! I love tinkering, both as a GM and as a player. The eidolon gives me the option to tinker and customize something as a player in a way you didn't see with other classes that have a pet (druid, ranger, cavalier). It would be disappointing to see that go. I'd rather have more, balanced options than removal of options.

How wide will the developer/designer net be cast? Is it entirely in-house or is it likely (possible?) that there'll be input from freelancers?
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Speaking of Advanced Bestiary... You excited for the Pathfinder Advanced Bestiary?

Link in case you weren't aware

Yeah, when's that supposed to come out, anyway?

Apparently the PDF will be released by the end of July. Dunno about the hardcopy.
Silver Crusade
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

See when it comes to the Summoner I'd prefer more specific flavourful chassis with limited customization based on specific kinds of outsiders (Angel, Azata, Devil, Demon, Daemon, Elemental, Genie, Inevitable, Proteans, Psychopomps, Q'lippoth etc).

Right now the Summoner is both overpowered AND flavorless. The Eidolon just doesn't have any real meaningful character in and of itself and might as well just be an extension of the PC. An eidolon with agendas of its own, perhaps bound to a summoner who doesn't share its outlook is far more interesting than the boring class as it exists.

I prefer that. Magic is its own flavor and it allows more creative character concepts.
Grand Lodge
Zhangar wrote:

I would guess that the goal for the summoner is to make something that Paizo can actually use in an AP - the Rivals Guide is the only thing I can think of that actually had statted up summoners. Otherwise, Paizo stays the hell away from the things as NPCs or opponents.

There is one in a recent AP volume.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

See when it comes to the Summoner I'd prefer more specific flavourful chassis with limited customization based on specific kinds of outsiders (Angel, Azata, Devil, Demon, Daemon, Elemental, Genie, Inevitable, Proteans, Psychopomps, Q'lippoth etc).

Right now the Summoner is both overpowered AND flavorless. The Eidolon just doesn't have any real meaningful character in and of itself and might as well just be an extension of the PC. An eidolon with agendas of its own, perhaps bound to a summoner who doesn't share its outlook is far more interesting than the boring class as it exists.

The Eidolon being based off specific kinds of outsiders sounds like a great archetype. Definitely not the base Summoner. The base summoner's current fluff is that they give a physical body to an already existent and disembodied mind from somewhere in the multiverse. I don't know about you, but that sounds flavorful enough for me. Reading the iconic summoner's backstory will really help you out. The class just requires more effort on the player's part to give it the writing it deserves, since the Summoner as a class is about as clean of a slate as a martial.

Also, each rank of angel, azata, devil, demon, daemon, inevitable, psychopmps, and qlippoth is so different from eachother that its impossible to have an eidolon be based off just the creature type.

Also, I want to put my vote in for a remade Fighter as well.
Scribbling Rambler wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

I would guess that the goal for the summoner is to make something that Paizo can actually use in an AP - the Rivals Guide is the only thing I can think of that actually had statted up summoners. Otherwise, Paizo stays the hell away from the things as NPCs or opponents.

There is one in a recent AP volume.

There's a summoner statted up in The Harrowing module, as well.

Sovereign Court
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There's one in a PFS Scenario as well as one in the Emerald Spire.
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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

See when it comes to the Summoner I'd prefer more specific flavourful chassis with limited customization based on specific kinds of outsiders (Angel, Azata, Devil, Demon, Daemon, Elemental, Genie, Inevitable, Proteans, Psychopomps, Q'lippoth etc).

Right now the Summoner is both overpowered AND flavorless. The Eidolon just doesn't have any real meaningful character in and of itself and might as well just be an extension of the PC. An eidolon with agendas of its own, perhaps bound to a summoner who doesn't share its outlook is far more interesting than the boring class as it exists.

See I think of it as the opposite. The eidolon is a blank canvas that the PC and GM can apply their own flavor to. It could be the summoner's imaginary friend, or psychic essence, or an outsider called in with its own agendas, or a stand. I love that blank aspect on it because I can put whatever flavor I wish to it (with GM approval of course). That's the big draw for me. I prefer flavorless classes that I can mold into what I wish, rather than flavor-focused classes that are unbending and rigid.

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I doubt they're looking for suggestions. BUT if they were.

I would love some touchups along these lines:

crafting maybe
Quick draw that allows splash weapons and alchemical items.
ways to boost alehcmial items (either paying more and able to increase the DC to add a d6. Easy enough and not unbalanced i think)
Maybe increasing poison ability so PC's could use it potentially.
Well the ability to increase the DC of alchemical items in general. Even if it's just like add 5-10 to the craft dc to add +1 to the Dc. and +5-10craft dc to add damage boosts or something.
Maybe add a weapons category for alchemical items and a weapons training like feat line.

It's a really niche/small time thing, since there are very few other than myself who are stupid obsessed with alchemical items/splash weapons/poisons but they fall out of use so quickly. it's not likely to ever occur but I would utterly love to play a fighter or an alchemist who was all about alcheimcal weapons.

As for summoner, I think changing sythesist summoner so instead of utterly replacing stats it just added a ediolion bonus to the rolls. (i.e. the edoion stats were 18 str, 15dex 14 con. then it would add straight up to on the summoner's stats. (summoner str 13(+1) dex 18(+4) con 14 would get +4 their str totally a +5. Kinda like a power suitt instead of replacing it copmletely. That way they can't utter dump things as easily. Only way i could think of to play some weird natural attack ideas (poison tail <3)

could be along the lines of psionic's aegis I guess. That seems pretty popular and pretty similiar.
Zwordsman wrote:

I doubt they're looking for suggestions. BUT if they were.

I would love some touchups along these lines:

crafting maybe
Quick draw that allows splash weapons and alchemical items.
ways to boost alehcmial items (either paying more and able to increase the DC to add a d6. Easy enough and not unbalanced i think)
Maybe increasing poison ability so PC's could use it potentially.
Well the ability to increase the DC of alchemical items in general. Even if it's just like add 5-10 to the craft dc to add +1 to the Dc. and +5-10craft dc to add damage boosts or something.
Maybe add a weapons category for alchemical items and a weapons training like feat line.

It's a really niche/small time thing, since there are very few other than myself who are stupid obsessed with alchemical items/splash weapons/poisons but they fall out of use so quickly. it's not likely to ever occur but I would utterly love to play a fighter or an alchemist who was all about alcheimcal weapons.

As for summoner, I think changing sythesist summoner so instead of utterly replacing stats it just added a ediolion bonus to the rolls. (i.e. the edoion stats were 18 str, 15dex 14 con. then it would add straight up to on the summoner's stats. (summoner str 13(+1) dex 18(+4) con 14 would get +4 their str totally a +5. Kinda like a power suitt instead of replacing it copmletely. That way they can't utter dump things as easily. Only way i could think of to play some weird natural attack ideas (poison tail <3)

could be along the lines of psionic's aegis I guess. That seems pretty popular and pretty similiar.

Yeah, if the summoner just gave a bonus to the physical stats like Wild Shape does, that would be better I feel.

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Odraude wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

See when it comes to the Summoner I'd prefer more specific flavourful chassis with limited customization based on specific kinds of outsiders (Angel, Azata, Devil, Demon, Daemon, Elemental, Genie, Inevitable, Proteans, Psychopomps, Q'lippoth etc).

Right now the Summoner is both overpowered AND flavorless. The Eidolon just doesn't have any real meaningful character in and of itself and might as well just be an extension of the PC. An eidolon with agendas of its own, perhaps bound to a summoner who doesn't share its outlook is far more interesting than the boring class as it exists.

See I think of it as the opposite. The eidolon is a blank canvas that the PC and GM can apply their own flavor to. It could be the summoner's imaginary friend, or psychic essence, or an outsider called in with its own agendas, or a stand. I love that blank aspect on it because I can put whatever flavor I wish to it (with GM approval of course). That's the big draw for me. I prefer flavorless classes that I can mold into what I wish, rather than flavor-focused classes that are unbending and rigid.

Oh, you've gone and done it now.

I now have an urge to make a summoner with an eidolon that looks like this :D
Dark Archive

I would like to see more on the alternate rules, say like having a +1 on every stat above 10 and how to integrate it into the game
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It would be great if the book has rules to make the characters less gear dependent. That and the problems of action economy can make that a really great book. The changes to monk and rogue will help, of course. A pair of questions;
- The changes of the classes will allow still the known archetypes?
- This is a spring or summer book? Contradictory information on this.

What I doubly like about this is I still have 9 months to save up for it :)
Insain Dragoon wrote:
I prefer that. Magic is its own flavor and it allows more creative character concepts.

Just re-fluff whatever comes closest. You don't need mechanics for a character concept, just change the way it looks and feels and use the mechanics as-is. Because nothing is going to sit exactly with what you have in your head anyway, it's all a compromise.

But summoners are just stupid anyway, I hope they nerf them to heck and back. Combat round hoarders, improv Deus Ex Scenicus and general outside context problem specialists. They're as bad as wizards. Not to mention hard to build, hard to audit, and have a tendency towards silliness.

At least once they're built, they're done. Wizards can turn the world upside down every day.

All IMHO of course :-)

Fighters may benefit from some attention but overall the class progression is solid so it's understandable they aren't on the list for a reworking. The "new resource pool for martial characters, allowing for exciting new tactical options" sounds ideal.
Barbarians rage cycling isn't an issue in my opinion, but I'm sure there's other places they might need work, and the only place I can see where 'work'='complete redesign' would be changing how rage works (perhaps explicitly include rage cycling as a feature).
Rogues are soft, stealth is hard to adjudicate/explain/envisage and the class doesn't stand up to a 20 level progression so again happy this is getting a redesign.
Monks are a class I have never EVER played or GMed for. That says something right there, but not enough to make it an opinion of monks in general.
I've already covered Summoners :-) but I'm surprised Magic isn't getting a lot of attention to depower stuff: getting rid of terms like "immune to" and instead having "+20 to roll against DC" perhaps, or improved DR, or "1/2 of 1/2" damage or duration against effects. Immunity is a pretty final statement.

256 pages is a lot though - can't wait to see what else they've got in there.
Shadow Lodge

I will say I'm with people who have mixed feelings about this since on the one hand I totally want some overhaul updates to certain stuff (cough rogue & monk cough) but at the same time I get the worries about completely changing something in a system that already has 5 years of content in print for it.

That being said I do like the idea of a "book of paizo houserules" coming out to give us a view at some of the more out there stuff they are working on and potentially test the waters for the next addition. If this is the best way they feel they can present that stuff but not up end all their previous work I'm willing to give it a try and check in on spoilers and an open beta.
Scarab Sages
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Insain Dragoon wrote:
The coolest part of the Eidolon is that you actually customize it. I'd rather see the spell list gutted than customization killed.

I would be happy with 6 level progression on the standard wizard spell list.

Pathfinder has too many spell lists.
Odraude wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

See when it comes to the Summoner I'd prefer more specific flavourful chassis with limited customization based on specific kinds of outsiders (Angel, Azata, Devil, Demon, Daemon, Elemental, Genie, Inevitable, Proteans, Psychopomps, Q'lippoth etc).

Right now the Summoner is both overpowered AND flavorless. The Eidolon just doesn't have any real meaningful character in and of itself and might as well just be an extension of the PC. An eidolon with agendas of its own, perhaps bound to a summoner who doesn't share its outlook is far more interesting than the boring class as it exists.

See I think of it as the opposite. The eidolon is a blank canvas that the PC and GM can apply their own flavor to. It could be the summoner's imaginary friend, or psychic essence, or an outsider called in with its own agendas, or a stand. I love that blank aspect on it because I can put whatever flavor I wish to it (with GM approval of course). That's the big draw for me. I prefer flavorless classes that I can mold into what I wish, rather than flavor-focused classes that are unbending and rigid.

+1. Love me the customization. Have to agree that "i have an angel/fiend/etc. buddy" would make a great secondary archetype, but the blank slate, anything-is-possible customization and flavoring of the core Summoner is what makes it so cool.

My first Summoner's Eidolon was based on a Lavos Spawn. Tell me where I can find an already-existing critter in the game that will let me replicate that.
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Add me to the list of people that don't think the fighter needs a full rework. It's a popular target on the boards, but in my eye it serves the need for a simple to build, simple to run class that anyone can play. It doesn't need to have as many toys as casters as that's not the point. The inevitably low will save on most fighters is a weakness but you need to have one, right?

I think the fighter just needs more options for stuff to do outside of combat. And perhaps a way to diversify its fighting modes without having to spread his overall fighting power between them. (fighters I see usually, always do the same thing every round because its the only thing they are good at, or they get feats for multiple things and arent really good at anything)

This book sounds pretty awesome. I can't wait to see what it has in store.
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I am wondering if we will get something halfway between the "design a eidolon" and "summon a outsider". Like kits directed towards building certain types of outsiders. So you pick Qlipppoth and you can build a eidolon from a set group of features for Qlippoths. Pick Protean and you can another, partial overlapping set of options to chose from. And so on.

I would argue proteans make a sort of thematic sense for getting a random power.
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Some Rule Options I personally would like to see:

- Ability score bonuses to TWO or even THREE ability scores every four levels, to lessen the gap between MAD and SAD classes.
- Set aside the Big Six magic items and the Wealth By Level chart. Give inherent bonuses (or alternative 20-level progressions) for BAB, saves, and AC.
- Give martial characters a major bonus against fear effects. I've always found it weird that martial characters usually have low Will saves and are the most likely to run away from yeth hounds and the like.
- Give melee characters a way to stay equally effective while being mobile in combat. Right now, they're too dependent on standing still and doing Full Attacks, which can get boring. (I haven't seen the Book of Nine Swords, but popular options from there might be introduced as options.)
- Advice on how to simplify higher level play. This can include lessening the number of attacks characters can have. Maybe replace the +20/+15/+10/+5 progression with something akin to +18/+18. Limit each character to a set number of buff effects. (I don't like the potential for Scry and Fry.)
- Make multiclassing more viable by having a single BAB progression chart that goes up to 80: a level in a full BAB class gives you 4 "points," a level in a medium BAB class gives you 3 "points," a level in a low-BAB class gives you 2 "points."
- Make a lot more spells have 1-round or longer casting times or make them into rituals, especially for some higher-level spells. Personally, I like the idea from 1E that higher-level spells take longer to cast and require that the party protect the caster.
- Making two-weapon fighting and one-handed weapon fighting more viable. (Or maybe even give an initiative penalty to two-handed fighters.)

By the way, should we have a thread to talk about things we'd like to see in Pathfinder Unchained? I know the design team already has ideas of what to do, but I'd love to participate in and follow such a thread.
Scarab Sages
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drumlord wrote:
Add me to the list of people that don't think the fighter needs a full rework. It's a popular target on the boards, but in my eye it serves the need for a simple to build, simple to run class that anyone can play. It doesn't need to have as many toys as casters as that's not the point. The inevitably low will save on most fighters is a weakness but you need to have one, right?

Fighter is a class I'm feeling pretty confident we'll see in here. It's fairly flawed, between inexplicably poor skills, bad saves that impede its ability to do its job, and a fairly dichotomous relationship between ease of play and ease of creation. It's certainly got more complications, weaknesses, and issues than other classes that are getting an eyeball, like the Barbarian.

And I don't think making a Fighter better intrinsically entails that the Fighter become more complicated. I'm confident that there's a lot of design space available for a Fighter that's as easy to build as it is to play, and which is capable of competently and reliably doing the things it's expected to do.
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I don't see the hysteria dying down yet.

As far as I can understand everything I have read form the developers:

These unchained classes will be new options. And thus optional. They will not supersede anything published before. They may not preserve backwards compatibility. Archetypes may not still apply. New ones may be created.

I could be reading things wrong.

Apart from that:

* Put me in the "i love the open-ness of Eidolons - their flavor is eternally mutable" camp. Having said that, the Deep Magic book showed what a determined flavor can do for the Summoner.

* I'd be happy to see a "simplified" Barbarian for beginners.

* I'm quite looking forward to Pathfinder Unchained. :)
Scarab Sages
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

As far as I can understand everything I have read form the developers:

These unchained classes will be new options. And thus optional. They will not supersede anything published before. They may not preserve backwards compatibility. Archetypes may not still apply. New ones may be created.

***

This is pretty much exactly how I understood it from listening to Jason talk about the book during the banquet. I'm pretty sure he even said "You can use some of it, all of it, whatever you want to mine from this thing for your table".

I'd imagine that a full BAB monk probably won't have all the same class features as a standard monk, so there probably won't be 100% compatibility with all archetypes, and I wouldn't expect there to be. Based on things that have been discussed in the past I'm pretty sure a re-balanced Summoner is going to look very different that a core Summoner currently looks. These aren't bad things. They're new options made to run in the system as the existing options, but with less legacy and more Paizo. That, to me, can really only be a good thing.

I would suspect that the class redesigns will be alternate classes, similar to the ninja's relationship to the rogue. So that way, they have more freedom to "remix" the whole class.
Paizo Employee Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,

While it is way too early for me to be giving out specifics, I will mention a few points here...

1. The classes mentioned fall into a special category in my mind. That being: Classes I would do differently today than the way they were done years ago during their initial design phase. Its not that we dislike them, it is just that they do not quite live up to our current design philosophies here in the office. This is a chance for us to revisit them in a safe environment, while allowing all of you to play with the results.

2. There will be things for everyone in this book. Although we only mentioned four classes, that list might grow. In addition, there are a number of other systems and rules bits that will apply to a wide variety of characters, giving them new ways to play the game. I think, as we get closer and are able to share some additional details, folks are going to be very excited about these options.

3. Careful with the wish-listing. I'd prefer folks not set up false expectations for this book. Its going to have a lot of things no one expects, and probably in the end, be missing some things that you might think are a no-brainer. Lets just be careful about wishing for the sky. In the end, the pieces of this book will still need to work with a lot of the game, so that does put some limits on what we can do, even if we are tinkering with other big systems.

At any rate.. glad to see a lot of enthusiasm here. We are excited to be working on this awesome book.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Dark Archive
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Orthos wrote:
+1. Love me the customization. Have to agree that "i have an angel/fiend/etc. buddy" would make a great secondary archetype, but the blank slate, anything-is-possible customization and flavoring of the core Summoner is what makes it so cool.

More classes should be open in this way.

The Fighter class should straight up be open and modular and able to model light-armored highly mobile desert warriors, and not have class abilities geared around being a heavily armored European style fighter, for instance.

Clerics of ethos should be possible. Using the Rogue chassis to make for other skill specialists, replacing advanced uses of Perception/Disable Device through Trapfinding with advanced uses of Heal through Chirurgy or whatever, could be kind of awesome.

If all those options aren't allowed in a specific setting, because Designer X was bitten by a non-LG Paladin as a child, then fine, that's Golarion setting-specific and explicitly has no business being reflected in the setting-neutral Pathfinder game mechanics anyway.

More options. Less 'hardcoded flavor' (like mechanically equivalent versions of hand axes from the far east being Exotic Weapons for no darn reason at all). The GM can decide which of them to add or remove, so that the stew is flavored to his preferences.
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