Spheres of Power (PFRPG)

I agree! My player fell in love with the Witch. We couldn't possibly replace the class with anything else.

Well I am out of luck. A moderator moved my thread to the Compatible Products from Other Publishers forum. Now there is no hope of me getting the help and feedback I want. Who do I PM to request it be moved back to Homebrew, or to the Conversion forum?

Also, I found myself building a very fun Soul Weaver. This class is certainly unique in its abilities, even turning its channel energy ability into a versatile class feature with no assistance from feats. She is built to be a spooky poltergeist haunted individual specializing in spirit magic. She uses destruction (negative energy only), telekinesis, and healing. Randomly she can turn into a crow too (gotta love those drawbacks).

Is there any reason we can't discuss it here? I think most of the people who are interested in Spheres of Power are checking this thread.

That's up to Drop Dead Studios. I would rather not clog up discussion of their product with discussion of homebrew that uses their product unless they are okay with that.

That said, I would love to point out some things Spheres of Power has done for my players and I that I appreciate.

We now have:
-A transforming class that is not a druid and has class features centered entirely around being a shapeshifter. And you can be dragon, giant, or even bird themed with no need for prestige classes or archetypes!
-removed the absolute need for a cleric to be in the party to remove every status effect
-Martials capable of accessing cool movement options without being forced to multiclass
-Conjuration is fun, quick, and easy.
-Destruction has easy entry, but can reward you for spending more than 2 talents in it.
-Less save-or-lose effects

I've sort of been wondering whether it would be okay to have Easy Focus apply to only one sphere in exchange for only costing 1 General Drawback. This is mostly for using Alteration on one's self: currently you need to use a spell point or be a Shapeshifter to make use of the simplest natural weapon options. Seems a little sad to me that simple self-buffing, just some flavorful claws or something, requires so much wrangling to get.

@Adam: That's pretty awesome! What it gave us, so far was:

• A Witch who is a much more impressive healer and party buffer without having a bunch of extra spells she'll never use.
  
• A hunter who, instead of having a bunch of spells she'll never use, learned some elven tree shaping from her father (she took the Nature/Plant sphere) and, thus, has much more flavor than the vague "divine druid magic" of the original.
  
• An elf who has a natural affinity for divining magic that will eventually grow.
  
• A gnome with a natural affinity for fire (Nature/Fire sphere).

I'm going to comment in the other thread later today on your homebrews.

@SilvercatMoonpaw:

Let's break it down.

Reading the rules on Shapeshift and Blank Form... to shapeshift a willing target (such as yourself) you spend 1 spell point to get 1 minute per level.

At 1st level, assuming you are a mid or low level caster who specializes in magic shapeshifting, chances are you've got 3 to 5 spell points, depending on your Casting Ability Modifier bonus and your casting tradition drawbacks. Let's assume best case scenario. You have a +4 Casting Ability Modifier, which give you 4 spell points and +1 spell point from your casting tradition which gives you a total of 5 spell points.

That's 5 uses of the Blank Form Shapeshift power per day for one minute (or 10 rounds) per use. How many combats will last more than 10 rounds and how often do you get into combat? Do you anticipate needing it more than 5 time per day?

That said, I would say limiting Easy Focus to 1 single sphere at the cost of 1 drawback (instead of 2 drawbacks as would be normal) would be kosher. Alternatively, I would allow you to trade the Lyncanthropic sphere-specific drawback (which limits you to transforming only yourself) for Easy Focus on the Alteration sphere only.

That's 5 uses of the Blank Form Shapeshift power per day for one minute (or 10 rounds) per use. How many combats will last more than 10 rounds and how often do you get into combat? Do you anticipate needing it more than 5 time per day?

That assumes you don't need those spell points for something else.

You may be right, but part of me wonders what's so bad about natural weapons? They can't be sundered or disarmed? Do those really happen enough to make it matter? Perhaps I just come down on the permissive side: I figure a light-damage weapon is a light-damage weapon.

Alternatively, I would allow you to trade the Lyncanthropic sphere-specific drawback (which limits you to transforming only yourself) for Easy Focus on the Alteration sphere only.

I'd worry that's not much of a drawback: if you want the easy self-buff how much do you care whether you can use it on others or not?

An alternative would be to make a Talent that allows manifestation of natural weapons to be kept going as a move action but not any other part of the shapeshift.

Perhaps I'm just a little obsessed with natural weapons. XD

Well, in this case, I'm assuming you're doing a focused caster who specializes in personal shapeshifting. The Shifter class in Spheres of Power actually has a Quick Transformation ability at level 1 that allows them to apply shapeshift only to the caster as a move action and maintain the effect as a move action - no drawbacks required.

Mostly it just seemed odd when I realized that requiring concentration for shapeshifting meant you could give yourself natural weapons but couldn't use them.

@SilvercatMoonpaw: Likely because the system is designed for casters first, fighters second. Most of these spells, it is assumed you are buffing someone else. The Shifter class shows how to design someone who uses Alteration to buff themselves instead.

Because the chapter on Using the Book is missing (to be added in a final update in February) I thought I'd expand on some ideas that have been mentioned in the product discussion:

The idea behind Spheres of Power was to give players and GMs the power to change magic to fit their needs. Thus, houseruling that all casters get Cantrips or that all Destruction sphere users must add the Energy Focus drawback to their characters isn't altering the system, as much as it is using the system how it was intended.

We made sure to include every option we could from classic Pathfinder, but in such a way that a GM could easily rule what would or wouldn't be included in their campaign. The last chapter will include several sample worlds that show some quick and easy ways SoP can be converted to fit a setting concept or plot requirement.

Because the chapter on Using the Book is missing (to be added in a final update in February) I thought I'd expand on some ideas that have been mentioned in the product discussion:

The idea behind Spheres of Power was to give players and GMs the power to change magic to fit their needs. Thus, houseruling that all casters get Cantrips or that all Destruction sphere users must add the Energy Focus drawback to their characters isn't altering the system, as much as it is using the system how it was intended.

We made sure to include every option we could from classic Pathfinder, but in such a way that a GM could easily rule what would or wouldn't be included in their campaign. The last chapter will include several sample worlds that show some quick and easy ways SoP can be converted to fit a setting concept or plot requirement.

Looking forward to it! Glad you don't mind us playing with your toys in the meantime. It just shows how much we love it. :)

A few thoughts about the remainder of the book...

*I notice that Destruction didn't get any advanced talents.

*Spellcrafting looks like something that requires a lot of trust from the GM. But it does set up the idea that spheres are 'magic before spells' so I may use the concept for some settings. In fact whenever both exist in the same campaign that will be my go-to explanation.

And that's it. I had no real questions. Everything was quite clear and easy to understand why it happened.

The way I see it, the advanced talent and spellcrafting system both require the GM and the player to work together on. A lot of advanced talents are abilities that not all GMs want in their games. Similarly, something like spellcrafting reminds me of the race building rules. They are fine if both parties remain informed and have a shared vision. They can immediately be gamed if the GM just lets players have total control over them.

That said, I would have liked to see a Destruction advanced talent of some kind. Elemental mixing being a good choice. Magma (Fire, Earth), banshee wails (Sonic, Negative energy). I'm sure they would have cool effects on their saves.

Okay, I'll be doing a full review when I get the chance but-
Holy crap this is amazing. I texted a friend and told him "Dude, between Dreamscarred Press and Drop Dead's Spheres of Power, I don't know if I'll even need a Paizo book again.

Spheres of Power is how magic should be; it's balanced, thematic, flavorful, and accommodates a huge number of settings and playstyles. Its own rules for high/medium/low casters even ironically make it easier to adapt to low magic settings!

The Armorist (basically Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail) is an awesome "Fighter" designed for a high magic world, the Soul Weaver is a ridiculously cool and flavorful class that can be necromancer or healer, the In canter is the perfect build-a-caster for any flavor... The most "boring" Class in the book is the Mage Knight, who can be a Paladin, Ranger, Bloodrager, Magus, or something entirely new, even allowing you to pick your casting stat from any of the mental stats. That's the most boring class in here. I am so 100% sold on this, my biggest regret is that I didn't get the .pdf/hardcover bundle; I don't really want to pay full price for the hardcover when I'be already paid for the .pdf.

I noticed that the number of spheres per talent is rather conservative, about three pages per sphere, however it covers a lot of ground. If Spheres of Power does well (The Kickstarter got over 25 times it's goal so I'm sure it will be.) will we eventually see a part 2 with more spheres or more talents for the existing spheres? I'm hard pressed to think of what hasn't been covered so I have to ask.

I must admit this product makes me want to try running Pathfinder despite misgivings that I'm right for the system.

I picked up this product yesterday and had a question about two talents in the Alteration sphere.

Tentacles:
Are you supposed to only be able to give yourself one tentacle attack?

Greater Transformation:
Are you able to take this talent multiple times in order to put more traits onto your shapeshift form?

General question on the Shifter:
If you have easy focus, are you able to concentrate on your shapeshift as a swift action rather than a move action?

Any chance of people who bought the .pdf getting a reduced price version of the hardcover?

If it influences the decision at all, I've been out actively recruiting new customers and closing sales for this product ;)

Any chance of people who bought the .pdf getting a reduced price version of the hardcover?

If it influences the decision at all, I've been out actively recruiting new customers and closing sales for this product ;)

You probably want to mention their next kickstarter Skybourne! I am personally very interested in the setting, but it sounds like it will have some great crunch to it as well. Specifically, they will expand Spheres of Power a bit in those books.

So far, the number one requested stretch goal for Skybourne is more support for Spheres of Power. We'll be posting the official update with stretch goal information later today, but yeah, further support for the SoP is definitely on the way.

As for getting you a discount on the hardcover if you already ordered the PDF, that makes sense to me. I'm not sure how to do that through a storefront like Paizo's, though, so I'll send them an email later to ask about that.

Just backed Skybourne. As I once told a friend "You had me at airship".

In the giantip thread a few things got brought up that I've thought about.

Now psionics don't have as many weird reality-warping effects that make casters so powerful but they are relatively competitive when put next to them. 9 levels of spellcasting and 9 levels of manifesting is definitely more powerful than spherecasting so if you allow psionics and replace spells with spheres the full psionic classes have a leg up.

This is less weird with Path of War stuff other than the opposite-day-ness of martials looking vancian and casters looking like they're taking magic feats. But while are probably way more powerful than the likes of the Fighter are probably on par with a well made spherecaster who are somewhere around the Iquisitor in terms of versatility and balance.

Malwing, I'm the one who brought it up in the GitP thread and I've had a discussion with my GM about it already. What we're going to tentatively do is allow all the psionic classes except for Psion. If you keep it to 6th level, psionics become much more balanced.

In the cases of Vitalist and Tactician, we decided that their power list was limited enough to not cause problems.

Path of War and Akashic Mysteries appear to work perfectly fine with spherecasting. In fact, while using Gestalt, the Akashic stuff actually goes together very nicely with it.

I've been going over this, and it looks really fun...that said, one thing did kind of pop out at me when I was looking through the Light sphere.

Glow: As a standard action, you may cause an object or creature to glow for 1 minute per caster level, outlining it with light as a candle, which may be of any color you wish. This requires a touch attack or ranged touch attack. The object or creature becomes outlined with light, giving it a -20 penalty on Stealth checks and negating all bonuses usually bestowed by invisibility, k effects, darkness, or similar effects.

...maybe I'm missing something obvious, but - to channel Yosemite Sam - what in tarnation is a 'k effect'?

Yeah, with linear casting progression sphere casters are fated to not be as powerful as 7/8/9 level casting or any class meant to compare to those spell levels. I'll try having them alongside spellcasting for a game and see how that works out.

I showed a player today, and he said that Spheres of Power seems more 'Pathfindery' than casting, in that most of the new paizo classes and how the Rogue and Barbarian was handled function by a talent system. Heck even the wizard gets his own talents in the form of discoveries. These kind of sub-feat systems extends to the Magus, Witch, Alchemist, Summoner and Oracle. Feats become the 'universal' talent system where combat feats lie but casting is the real odd man out in the system. compared to the rest of the game it is weird.

And apparently cumbersome too. My Core Rulebook has been used to the point of the cover disintegrating twice. The third time I rebound it I split it up into three pieces. The first is all the chapters before Magic and spells, The second is Magic and spells and the third is the rest of the book. Roughly 165 pages for spells and magic. Just talking about spherecasting and describing the spheres takes 58 pages and probably cover more ground than the core rulebook. You know I made a lvl 4 mageknight yesterday and you know what? that was the least painful spellcaster I've ever built. Normally choosing spells takes so much research and reading. With spheres I just choose a theme and run with it. It took me like two minutes. I went with Enhancement/Destruction running with an electric damage theme. Why is choosing spells so complicated. And they're split among levels too. Now you have spell lists and then have to look from the spell list to the spell to get a real description of what it does.

Sorry, I think this book is taking off now because when you think about it Magic finds new ways to make me angry. Its inherently unbalanced, unfair, complicated, full of noob traps and is weird compared to how the rest of the game is built. That and it's built around exception language and creates weird corner cases that need to be FaQed.

I've been going over this, and it looks really fun...that said, one thing did kind of pop out at me when I was looking through the Light sphere.

Spheres of Power, page 38 wrote:

Glow: As a standard action, you may cause an object or creature to glow for 1 minute per caster level, outlining it with light as a candle, which may be of any color you wish. This requires a touch attack or ranged touch attack. The object or creature becomes outlined with light, giving it a -20 penalty on Stealth checks and negating all bonuses usually bestowed by invisibility, k effects, darkness, or similar effects.

...maybe I'm missing something obvious, but - to channel Yosemite Sam - what in tarnation is a 'k effect'?

Yeah we should start making a typo thread before this goes to the printers.

Yeah, with linear casting progression sphere casters are fated to not be as powerful as 7/8/9 level casting or any class meant to compare to those spell levels.

Does that include while using the advanced talents?

Malwing wrote:

Yeah, with linear casting progression sphere casters are fated to not be as powerful as 7/8/9 level casting or any class meant to compare to those spell levels.

Does that include while using the advanced talents?

Yes. The main issue with casting vs martials was that Martials progressed with abilities being a natural conseqence of a previous choiceand power level didn't progress because they have to choose from options that are assumed equal to each other. With Spheres of Power casters are on the same level as martials with options that are designed as if they were equal so they grow in power linearly. Despite some of the advanced talents being really busted they are kinda balanced enough to not get into 9 levels of casting dangerous.

The way I saw advanced talents, a lot of them were effects that gms may or may not want in their games. Abilities that fit less into every setting than the standard magic talents.

The way I saw advanced talents, a lot of them were effects that gms may or may not want in their games. Abilities that fit less into every setting than the standard magic talents.

Most of them are just less abusable versions of high level spells; the Warp Advanced Talent Create Demiplane for example is a more limited version of the spell of the same name, in a system that lacks the other elements that make the spell so powerful (like chain-gating with time manipulation).

War's Commander ability only works if you're in a game with the mass combat rules, which I guess is kind of in line with the idea that not all of the abilities conform to every game, but I still think they're universally better balanced than comparative spells.

Yeah, they definitely aren't as problematic as their vancian counterparts. Though demiplanes, outsider binding, and reviving the dead make good examples of effects not fit for every game or setting.

'k effects' is supposed to say 'blink effects' and has been caught for the update.

We've recently updated our website dropdeadstudios.com, and added a forum. It's nothing fancy, but we'll be directing people to it for further Spheres of Power and Skybourne discussion as a centralized place we can see your comments and see how the system is working at your home games.

I don't think the advanced talents are balanced to each other though. Some are way better than others and some have limited application based on what kind of campaign is being run. Also destruction has no advanced talents so I think I'm more likely to make advanced talents be 'discoverables', things that have to be found on an ancient scroll deep in a dungeon than default allow them in the game, which I guess is the point of making them a part of the optional rules chapter.

Most players I've shown the system too like it but I worry about pepole ignoring it because it is kind of a nerf for full casters, particularly arcane casters. Out of laziness for adventure paths I plan to allow sphere casters in addition to normal casters. I allow Psionics and Path of War the same way but I very rarely see characters with those options outside my own characters. Partly because new systems are scary and you have to learn new things but whenever there are perceived imbalances whether it's a nerf or power boost players shy away from it. I may have to wait for homebrews before I can give solid results.

I don't think the advanced talents are balanced to each other though. Some are way better than others and some have limited application based on what kind of campaign is being run. Also destruction has no advanced talents so I think I'm more likely to make advanced talents be 'discoverables', things that have to be found on an ancient scroll deep in a dungeon than default allow them in the game, which I guess is the point of making them a part of the optional rules chapter.

Most players I've shown the system too like it but I worry about pepole ignoring it because it is kind of a nerf for full casters, particularly arcane casters. Out of laziness for adventure paths I plan to allow sphere casters in addition to normal casters. I allow Psionics and Path of War the same way but I very rarely see characters with those options outside my own characters. Partly because new systems are scary and you have to learn new things but whenever there are perceived imbalances whether it's a nerf or power boost players shy away from it. I may have to wait for homebrews before I can give solid results.

I like the system specifically because it's so much better balanced to the martial classes - at low levels I don't come down with CMS (Crossbow Mage Syndrome), and at higher levels I haven't created a dynamic where the non-spellcasters are basically sentient tools I use to maximize the return on my spells.

It's also more intuitive to newer players and/or first time spellcasters, since the progression is much more similar to that of a martial character, with a new sphere equating roughly to a new combat style or maneuver tree, and the Talents forming something like the bonus feats, rage powers, or talents of the martial classes. Sure, it's technically a nerf down to Tier 3 for the primary caster classes, but most players are going to feel like it's an upgrade when they get to go around with all day blasting and teleportation, or the ability to top everyone off with temp hp between fights without running through a wand of CLW, etc.
A forum-goer who knows about the god or Batman wizard builds will recognize that the sphere-casting system gives up a chunk of a Vancian casters power, but the bulk of players, I suspect, will see this as an awesome upgrade and a great way to eke more of that "magical" vibe out of their characters.

Liz has added an option so those who've bought the PDF can get the books at a discount. Thanks!

Liz has added an option so those who've bought the PDF can get the books at a discount. Thanks!

Got my HC preordered!

Also, posted up a review.

Liz has added an option so those who've bought the PDF can get the books at a discount. Thanks!

out of curiosity, is there a way kickstarter backers can get something similar?

Interesting question.

Do you base spell points on caster level or class level?

For example, a 1st level Wizard has a class level of 1 and a caster level of +1. A 1st level Bard has a class level of 1 but a caster level of +0.

The Wizard obviously gets a spell pool of 1 (level) + INT bonus + drawback bonuses.

Does the Bard get a spell pool of 0 (caster level) + CHA bonus + drawback bonuses? Or 1 (class level) + CHA bonus + drawback bonuses?

My gut says it should be caster level and not class level. This gives High Level casters a little extra oomph and rewards them for specializing specifically in magical studies or religious devotion.

Interesting question.

Do you base spell points on caster level or class level?

For example, a 1st level Wizard has a class level of 1 and a caster level of +1. A 1st level Bard has a class level of 1 but a caster level of +0.

The Wizard obviously gets a spell pool of 1 (level) + INT bonus + drawback bonuses.

Does the Bard get a spell pool of 0 (caster level) + CHA bonus + drawback bonuses? Or 1 (class level) + CHA bonus + drawback bonuses?

My gut says it should be caster level and not class level. This gives High Level casters a little extra oomph and rewards them for specializing specifically in magical studies or religious devotion.

Seems like the rules on page 9 are pretty clear that it's class level; it even specifically distinguishes that this is different than caster level. It makes sense with the way the system works: since caster level is basically your magical BAB, you aren't looking at who has the biggest effects, you're looking at how capable you are at landing them. High casters will also have more points to spend on talents natively, so it makes sense to use a universal pool system. Fewer fiddly bits for new players, everyone has the same basic pool of points, high casters have more and varied uses for them.

If you look on page 110 of the pdf, it mentions conversions for the base classes. All of the 6th/9th level casters get a full pool of spell points equal to their 'class' level plus casting modifier. Only ranger and paladin are different:

Spell Pool: The sphere ranger gains a small reservoir of energy

he can call on to create truly wondrous effects, called a spell
pool. This pool contains a number of spell points equal to his
class level -3 + his Wisdom modifier. This pool replenishes once
per day after roughly 8 hours of rest.

So the intention is indeed class level. Some classes, like sorcerer, get extra spell points per level giving them more oomph to throw around during a regular day which fits the conversion fairly well I think.

out of curiosity, is there a way kickstarter backers can get something similar?

No. I have no way of knowing who was a backer or not, and providing a means for a discount on physical products is much more difficult than granting a free PDF when you're restricting it to a small subset of people.

I was making a Fey Adept and I noticed that Invisibility no longer goes away if you attack someone. Is this intentional?

I was making a Fey Adept and I noticed that Invisibility no longer goes away if you attack someone. Is this intentional?

It seems like the SoP invisibility is a bit less powerful than the standard invisibility, so I'd guess it's intentional, but I'd also be interested in knowing the answer to that question.

It is intentional: Invisibility is an illusion, and follows the same rules (spell point to create, concentration unless sustained by the appropriate talent). It's less effective at stealth, but more effective in combat since it doesn't disappear after hitting someone.

Well, I am sure your rogue friends will appreciate it. Thanks for clearing that up.

....

2. Lestha automatically gains 1 sphere she is proficient in. This gives her access to the sphere's base abilities. Lestha chooses to be proficient in the Warp sphere to gain mastery over space, allowing her to teleport either herself or another, willing target anywhere within Close range as a standard action (Medium range if she spends a spell point).

Where does it state that she automatically gets 1 sphere?

All spellcasters get 1 sphere and 2 talents automatically at level 1. That's listed in every class/archetype.

It's not actually.

All classes say "A [class name] may combine spheres and talents to create magical effects..... Note: All casters gain 2 bonus talents and may select a casting tradition the first time they gain the casting feature.)

The fact that it says BONUS talents could be used to imply they get an automatic Sphere but it could just as easily be interpreted that one of the bonus talents has to be used to gain sphere access.

I don't doubt that the free Sphere is intended, it's just not fully clear from the wording.