The problem with a Huge Flip-Mat is… how do you fold it? How do you make it have the same dimensions as our books so that it can be sold through the same channels?
We could definitely do two standard-sized maps and intend that you lay them next to one another to create a really big map, but we haven't yet figured out a way to do a truly mega mat.
Erik,
Two flip-mats would work well enough, I’d be ok with that.
Although has Paizo thought about putting some of the maps on vinyl? Very much like how Gale Force Nine does for a lot of the D&D maps.
You can make them bigger than the flip-mats, and they can be sold to go along with the maps in the APs. Even though they would be specific towards the APs, just like any map, they could still be used for anything.
I believe Gale Force Nine sells a single rolled up vinyl map for around $20, I know I would pay the same (or even a little more) if you did something similar.
Chief Technical Officer
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Repeating:
As this is the Product Discussion forum, please keep in mind that the topic is this product. Discussing how other products compare to this one is fine, but if you want to talk entirely about other products, please find a more appropriate subforum.
I have removed some discussion about products other than this one.
I heard this module has a Technic League arcanist from Numeria running around its halls. Is this true?
Ooooh ... I think I'd like to have this (and the accompanying flip-mats too). Hmm ... and they are both slated for availability around my birthday/birth month. :)
Hmm ... Happy Birthday to me ...
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So any chance of an update of when Kickstarter backers will be getting there Pdf's unlocked please?
Curious about that myself.
Normally if you have a subscription or are getting both hard copy & PDF, you get the PDFs when your package ships. Which would make sense for Emerald Spire as well.But for those with early access from the Kickstarter, it doesn't make sense to make them wait until the 25th along with everyone else.
Couple of questions:
1. Does Emerald Spire feature player handouts? (Apart from the flip-mat pack, that is.) This does tempt. Am considering hardcopy vs pdf. If there are many handouts to print, it might make more sense to at least have the pdf, though I'm still old school enough to prefer reading paper.
2. 16 levels to get PCs to level 13:
a) Are there sections of rooms with no descriptions? Some of the mega-dungeons I've seen had cool sprawling maps, sure, but with a ton of non-defined rooms. I can sketch a maze of rooms in a few minutes without worrying about populating them, too. I take this won't be the case but want to make sure.
b) Does the 16th dungeon level allow for potential modular add-ons for those wanting to nurture the campaign to beyond 13th level? (I guess that's an easy one: Nothing can stop the power of imaginative editting!)
Thanks!
Modules Overlord
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Couple of questions:
I love questions!
1. Does Emerald Spire feature player handouts? (Apart from the flip-mat pack, that is.) This does tempt. Am considering hardcopy vs pdf. If there are many handouts to print, it might make more sense to at least have the pdf, though I'm still old school enough to prefer reading paper.
Not in large numbers in any case. None come to mind, but there might be a few I'm not thinking of offhand.
2. 16 levels to get PCs to level 13:
a) Are there sections of rooms with no descriptions? Some of the mega-dungeons I've seen had cool sprawling maps, sure, but with a ton of non-defined rooms. I can sketch a maze of rooms in a few minutes without worrying about populating them, too. I take this won't be the case but want to make sure.
Again, there might be 1 or 2 over 16 levels, but basically no. Every space is described and ready for adventure!
b) Does the 16th dungeon level allow for potential modular add-ons for those wanting to nurture the campaign to beyond 13th level? (I guess that's an easy one: Nothing can stop the power of imaginative editting!)
The themes and plots are specifically brought to a head and resolved... but some of them lend themselves to a vast scope. If someone wanted to build on that scope to expand the dungeons, there are tons of idea to use as jumping-off point.
Thanks!
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The module does have a big bad in the form of the Azlanti lich Nhur Athemon, who built the structure and still dwells in its depths. He's in my level, the Throne of Azlant. But there are two levels below _that_, each with their own foreshadowing. It's all tied together well, I think. Even though it was written by 16 people and you can see the differences in design philosophy between all of us, there's enough of a skeleton supporting the whole thing that there are lots of connections between levels.
Don't you mean there's enough of a Lich?
Anyway, this seems exciting to me. I'm not sure I understand entirely how the flipmats work, though - if they have the maps of entire levels on them, doesn't that mean that the players will see the outline of entire levels without having to explore them first? doesn't that detract the fun of dungeon crawling?
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Outlines often don't tell you a lot.
Except for stuff like, "alright guys, only one room left in this floor. Let's rest before going in because there's probably a boss fight there", or "Hmm, seems like this next room is smaller than the area of effect of a fire ball. OK, we open the door and immediately shoot a fireball in to the room" or a dozen other little annoying things that I KNOW smart players couldn't resist doing with this added information.
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Outlines often don't tell you a lot.
Except for stuff like, "alright guys, only one room left in this floor. Let's rest before going in because there's probably a boss fight there", or "Hmm, seems like this next room is smaller than the area of effect of a fire ball. OK, we open the door and immediately shoot a fireball in to the room" or a dozen other little annoying things that I KNOW smart players couldn't resist doing with this added information.
Honestly, every game I was in that used pre-made battlemaps of dungeons had some sort of fog of war, usually done using plain jane copy/printer paper. Black cloth is kinda fancy and requires some wrangling, but is all the more "in character".
Black cloth is a good idea, cheers.
I've used A5/A6 sized post-it notes to good effect, although its a little uglier than black cloth would be. It still has the problem of revealing how much is left to explore on the current level, but I haven't found people using that to metagame. In our case it's more about whether we call it a night or explore one more room.
The gentleman that is currently DMing our JR campaign right now draws all the maps out ahead of time and just sets them down on the table when we get there. He doesn't bother covering up anything. To be honest, we haven't had any metagaming problems with it thus far. Our group is pretty good at staying in character, so using tactics that wouldn't make sense except through metagaming just don't occur. I think you'd find that it's not as much of a worry as you might think it is.
The only thing that I wonder about in this revealing method is secret doors and rooms! That's the one metagaming aspect that I've found very difficult to shut off! "Wait! There's one more room over here that we've not explored, and there appears to be no way into it . . . Let's start looking around for some secret doors here."
...there might be 1 or 2 over 16 levels, but basically no. Every space is described and ready for adventure!
The themes and plots are specifically brought to a head and resolved... but some of them lend themselves to a vast scope. If someone wanted to build on that scope to expand the dungeons, there are tons of idea to use as jumping-off point.
Sounds good! This just may end up in my cart... Thanks for the quick answers to my questions in this and other threads. :-)
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I've used A5/A6 sized post-it notes to good effect, although its a little uglier than black cloth would be. It still has the problem of revealing how much is left to explore on the current level, but I haven't found people using that to metagame. In our case it's more about whether we call it a night or explore one more room.
One PFS GM I played with last year at PaizoCon uses paper cut into 2-3 inch radius circles.
At the end of the game, then, he has the players write something on the circles, for the entertainment of future PFS players.
Or buy the flipmats twice. Cut your extra copies into room-sized pieces, and lay them out like a jigsaw as the players explore. You get the fog-of-war effect without having to fuss about with a million sticky-notes, AND you get the thrill of ruthlessly taking a pair of scissors to an $80 gaming purchase. :)
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Creative Director
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We've discussed doing box sets before for some products. I don't recall off the top of my head if this one was one of them... I don't believe it was. In any event... the logistics for creating a box set remain beyond what we can do now... especially considering how much it would cost the customer to buy a box set...
It would be well over a hundred bucks.
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I like how Paizo does "unofficial" or "a la carte" box sets. Usually, when an AP (or, nowadays, a module) comes out, there's a few other books that support it. E.g., when Dragon's Demand came out, we also had the Dragonslayer's Handbook and Dragons Unleashed. Likewise, when an AP comes out, you usually a Player Companion and a Campaign Setting book that ties pretty directly to the AP, and some map packs and flip mats that, while not directly out of the AP, are useful for the AP.
I have to admit, WRT Emerald Spire, I would really love to get the flip map pack, but the $80 is kinda scary.... If I ever get to the point where I know I'll be running Emerald Spire with a physical (i.e. not online) group that I believe will go a significant distance through it, then I'll do it. Right now, though, it would be on spec. (I am getting the book, though.)
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I like how Paizo does "unofficial" or "a la carte" box sets. Usually, when an AP (or, nowadays, a module) comes out, there's a few other books that support it. E.g., when Dragon's Demand came out, we also had the Dragonslayer's Handbook and Dragons Unleashed. Likewise, when an AP comes out, you usually a Player Companion and a Campaign Setting book that ties pretty directly to the AP, and some map packs and flip mats that, while not directly out of the AP, are useful for the AP.
Ditto here, as a boxed set often tends to end up attracting tax on the full price over here in the UK, while books are tax-free. The maps by themselves are under the import threshold so they usually go straight through customs without any additional charges.
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Ditto here, as a boxed set often tends to end up attracting tax on the full price over here in the UK, while books are tax-free. The maps by themselves are under the import threshold so they usually go straight through customs without any additional charges.I like how Paizo does "unofficial" or "a la carte" box sets. Usually, when an AP (or, nowadays, a module) comes out, there's a few other books that support it. E.g., when Dragon's Demand came out, we also had the Dragonslayer's Handbook and Dragons Unleashed. Likewise, when an AP comes out, you usually a Player Companion and a Campaign Setting book that ties pretty directly to the AP, and some map packs and flip mats that, while not directly out of the AP, are useful for the AP.
This. Boxed sets tend to be treated as non-books by customs and end up forcing me to visit the local customs office and go through a harrowing procedure of proving that it was me who ordered this package, that the package is not dangerous, that the package was paid for, that the price is indicated on an invoice and after all that 2 weeks later I get it finally delivered home, for a total of 6-8 weeks in transit.
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This. Boxed sets tend to be treated as non-books by customs and end up forcing me to visit the local customs office and go through a harrowing procedure of proving that it was me who ordered this package, that the package is not dangerous, that the package was paid for, that the price is indicated on an invoice and after all that 2 weeks later I get it finally delivered home, for a total of 6-8 weeks in transit.Ditto here, as a boxed set often tends to end up attracting tax on the full price over here in the UK, while books are tax-free. The maps by themselves are under the import threshold so they usually go straight through customs without any additional charges.I like how Paizo does "unofficial" or "a la carte" box sets. Usually, when an AP (or, nowadays, a module) comes out, there's a few other books that support it. E.g., when Dragon's Demand came out, we also had the Dragonslayer's Handbook and Dragons Unleashed. Likewise, when an AP comes out, you usually a Player Companion and a Campaign Setting book that ties pretty directly to the AP, and some map packs and flip mats that, while not directly out of the AP, are useful for the AP.
And that really cuts into your "savage travelers" and "eat small children" time. Right, Mr. Bag-o-Teeth?
;)
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I like how Paizo does "unofficial" or "a la carte" box sets. Usually, when an AP (or, nowadays, a module) comes out, there's a few other books that support it. E.g., when Dragon's Demand came out, we also had the Dragonslayer's Handbook and Dragons Unleashed. Likewise, when an AP comes out, you usually a Player Companion and a Campaign Setting book that ties pretty directly to the AP, and some map packs and flip mats that, while not directly out of the AP, are useful for the AP.
I wonder if Paizo could do an "unoffical" boxed set sometime, such as just selling the box separately so you can assemble things yourself.
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I wonder if Paizo could do an "unoffical" boxed set sometime, such as just selling the box separately so you can assemble things yourself.I like how Paizo does "unofficial" or "a la carte" box sets. Usually, when an AP (or, nowadays, a module) comes out, there's a few other books that support it. E.g., when Dragon's Demand came out, we also had the Dragonslayer's Handbook and Dragons Unleashed. Likewise, when an AP comes out, you usually a Player Companion and a Campaign Setting book that ties pretty directly to the AP, and some map packs and flip mats that, while not directly out of the AP, are useful for the AP.
I recently bought the Munchkin Boxes of Holding: they arrive flat pack.
However, they're pretty bulky and might not be up to Paizo's aesthetic standards.
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Interesting. Except for back in the late 70's and early 80's (Gamma World, Top Secret, first editions of both), the only box sets I've picked up are Planescape Boxed sets. (I got those late enough to be used.) I got all five of those (Core, "Planes Of...", and Hellbound.) I ended up taking all the books out of the boxes and storing them on the shelves with other books, storing the maps in a hanging file folder, and throwing the boxes in the attic. When I moved, and space was at a premium, I got rid of the boxes....
Different folks want different things from their boxed sets, I guess!
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Is it wrong I am most excited by the maps? I always feel my abilities as an on the fly cartographer is greatly lacking.I've started pre-drawing maps/rooms I need on 1" grid paper.
-Skeld
Skeld,
Do you mean you are pre-drawing the maps for Emerald Spire? If so, how did you get access so early?
I was on the kickstarter and still have not received the PDF; supposedly we were going to get the pdf as soon as it is available.
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Is it wrong I am most excited by the maps? I always feel my abilities as an on the fly cartographer is greatly lacking.I've started pre-drawing maps/rooms I need on 1" grid paper.
-Skeld
Skeld,
Do you mean you are pre-drawing the maps for Emerald Spire? If so, how did you get access so early?
I was on the kickstarter and still have not received the PDF; supposedly we were going to get the pdf as soon as it is available.
Ha! No, sorry. The ones I'm doing are for The Dragon's Demand, actually.
-Skeld
Is it wrong I am most excited by the maps? I always feel my abilities as an on the fly cartographer is greatly lacking.
It's not.
I frequently play adventure paths on Roll20.net and finding, editing and uploading appropriate maps are invariably what takes the most time for me. The opportunity to upload ready-made PDF maps covering the entire campaign and not have to worry about scaling, aligning, googling user-made maps, or creating the map from scratch is a colossal weight of my mind.
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The problem with a Huge Flip-Mat is… how do you fold it? How do you make it have the same dimensions as our books so that it can be sold through the same channels?
We could definitely do two standard-sized maps and intend that you lay them next to one another to create a really big map, but we haven't yet figured out a way to do a truly mega mat.
Erik,
Two flip-mats would work well enough, I’d be ok with that.
Although has Paizo thought about putting some of the maps on vinyl? Very much like how Gale Force Nine does for a lot of the D&D maps.
You can make them bigger than the flip-mats, and they can be sold to go along with the maps in the APs. Even though they would be specific towards the APs, just like any map, they could still be used for anything.
I believe Gale Force Nine sells a single rolled up vinyl map for around $20, I know I would pay the same (or even a little more) if you did something similar.
I'd like to second this comment. I love Pathfinder adventure paths and the Golarion setting. I'm constantly frustrated that Paizo has so many map-packs and flip-mats yet none which correspond with their adventure paths (Sandpoint Cathedral square being the only exception I know of).
I'm constantly having to use color-copiers at work and deleting room numbers and GM information on those mats. If the APs are selling well wouldn't it only make sense that supplemental map-packs would sell well, also?
Believe me, I'd be buying them. I'm honstly surprised that this isn't being done.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Please see this post to find out why we don't do full-size battle mats for our AP volumes.
Plus, you can now see that 16 maps that each cover a space of 120x150 comes with a cost of $80—and some of the individual maps in our APs would need to be 4 times the size of one of those.
Odd question perhaps, but: Are all the flip-mat maps included in the Emerald Spire scaled to five foot squares?
Odd question perhaps, but: Are all the flip-mat maps included the Emerald Spire scaled to five foot squares?
All of our Flip-Mats are scaled 1" to 5 ft.
Odd question perhaps, but: Are all the flip-mat maps included in the Emerald Spire scaled to five foot squares?All of our Flip-Mats are scaled 1" to 5 ft.
Great, thanks!
When are backers to be expecting access to the pdf?
Please see this post to find out why we don't do full-size battle mats for our AP volumes.
Plus, you can now see that 16 maps that each cover a space of 120x150 comes with a cost of $80—and some of the individual maps in our APs would need to be 4 times the size of one of those.
That's disappointing to hear.
I guess it came from someone who was not aware a lot of your APs the maps were so large.
Could you at least do it with the smaller maps in the APs? I know I would have loved to see the