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Just not in all situations.
- The Eidolon rolls Perception checks as much as you do. Familiars and Animal Companions, too, but the Eidolon can recognize a trap and make a Sense Motive check.
- The Eidolon rolls checks that can only be rolled once. For example, you can roll 2 Recall Knowledge for the same check, 2 Demoralize on the same enemy, etc... It has your skill levels so it's not bad in these checks.
- Things that can only be done once per character can be done on both you and your Eidolon. Battle Medicine, Treat Wounds, all these checks can be rolled twice. You can even benefit from double Fast Healing.
- The Eidolon participates in skill challenges as much as you do. PFS adventures love skill challenges and the Eidolon can participate in most of them. So, you have an extra roll and an extra character for them.
- The Eidolon has an inventory. It's a bunch of extra bulks.
- The Eidolon is the best scout in the game. You can see through its eyes (double Perception checks), it has Darkvision, it can open doors and if it falls into a trap you can Unmanifest it. It's better than Prying Eyes in my opinion and available at level 1.
- The Eidolon doesn't sleep and has Darkvision. While you sleep, he guards, always.
- The Eidolon can have it's own Exploration activity. If your DM annoys you with the communal action pool between your Eidolon and you, just take Tandem Move so you can have 6 actions per turn.
- And, maybe the best, the Eidolon can be exploring with the party while you walk dozens of feet behind the party. You absolutely don't need to be with the party to participate to the combat. If you can cast Heal on yourself you can participate fully.
In my opinion, many of these things have been overlooked.
It's great for niche situations or ooc benefits.
But they were general and underwhelming. Real benefits i won't down play you on that.
If all you bring to the table is some action economy exploitation while being a featless martial in one body and a caster almost out of spell slots on the other. Count me uninterested.
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I did not think of being a separate target for Battle Medicine. Thats excellent.
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- And, maybe the best, the Eidolon can be exploring with the party while you walk dozens of feet behind the party. You absolutely don't need to be with the party to participate to the combat. If you can cast Heal on yourself you can participate fully.
New character concept: Cat Lady Summoner who sends their kid off to adventure like a doting parent sending their child off to school, stays at the entrance of the dungeon knitting and casts 2Act Heal on themself from a staff whenever they know their Eidolon is hurting.
Not all have darkvision. Extra rolls on certain things can be extra chances to fail, like stealth. If you aren't with your party, you should get ambushed alone at some point. Disposable scouting is something I think tends to irritate DMs, so usefulness can very. Extra bulk is nice, though will they like it if you use them as a packmule? Having an I'm sleeping vigilant guardian is ace.
Is all that worth giving up raw power?
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Not all have darkvision. Extra rolls on certain things can be extra chances to fail, like stealth. If you aren't with your party, you should get ambushed alone at some point. Disposable scouting is something I think tends to irritate DMs, so usefulness can very. Extra bulk is nice, though will they like it if you use them as a packmule? Having an I'm sleeping vigilant guardian is ace.
Is all that worth giving up raw power?
I'm not convinced on the Raw Power thing.
I'm sitting down Monday with my converted Cleric, who has slightly less Heal per day and fewer potential spells, but which is bringing another character with the same attack bonus, damage roll (may actually be better boosted), and AC as either of the monks in the party - and potentially superior survivability, with Reinforce Eidolon/shield cantrip.
And I'm still going to be the main healer between spells and Medic dedication.
Yeah, the monks have "soft" benefits like Flurry, but it won't take much for them to note the player "pet" has the same numbers they do on combat and physical skills and start asking what they've got that makes up for spells and a second body.
My Scrawny Cleric is suddenly going to have competitive values in every single relevant Skill as well, since my worst effective Attribute modifier for skills will be 14, with 3 of the 4 at 18 or better.
I very much doubt ill be leaving anyone at the table thinking my character is underpowered...
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The Eidolon doesn't sleep and has Darkvision. While you sleep, he guards, always.Are you sure about this? In PF1 they vanished if you slept.
Nothing is said about that so I think you can.
It's great for niche situations or ooc benefits.
Mapping the whole dungeon and avoiding all traps a "niche situation".
Making many skill check twice a "niche situation".We don't play the same game.
Extra rolls on certain things can be extra chances to fail, like stealth.
You only make 2 rolls if you need. Otherwise you Unmanifest it and you only make one roll.
Disposable scouting is something I think tends to irritate DMs, so usefulness can very.
Same for Rogues. If you only fight Swarms they are bad. But some DMs don't fight their players and allow them to actually play their characters.
Btw... does anything say eidolons can't use shields?
I dont think anything says this, but I'm assuming it will be in the print copy that they cant use mundane weapons or armor at all.
For now, I'm going to proceed as if Shield Cantrip + Reinforce is the supported defensive option and see how it works.
The Eidolon doesn't sleep and has Darkvision. While you sleep, he guards, always.Are you sure about this? In PF1 they vanished if you slept.Nothing is said about that so I think you can.
It's great for niche situations or ooc benefits.Mapping the whole dungeon and avoiding all traps a "niche situation".
Making many skill check twice a "niche situation".
We don't play the same game.Extra rolls on certain things can be extra chances to fail, like stealth.You only make 2 rolls if you need. Otherwise you Unmanifest it and you only make one roll.
Disposable scouting is something I think tends to irritate DMs, so usefulness can very.Same for Rogues. If you only fight Swarms they are bad. But some DMs don't fight their players and allow them to actually play their characters.
you are correct, we dont, ive never had a game where anyone successfully maps an entire dungeon without fighting the entire dungeon.
but hey if you like rolling skills twice as your main shtick, have at it.
The Eidolon doesn't sleep and has Darkvision. While you sleep, he guards, always.Are you sure about this? In PF1 they vanished if you slept.Nothing is said about that so I think you can.
It's great for niche situations or ooc benefits.Mapping the whole dungeon and avoiding all traps a "niche situation".
Making many skill check twice a "niche situation".
We don't play the same game.Extra rolls on certain things can be extra chances to fail, like stealth.You only make 2 rolls if you need. Otherwise you Unmanifest it and you only make one roll.
Disposable scouting is something I think tends to irritate DMs, so usefulness can very.Same for Rogues. If you only fight Swarms they are bad. But some DMs don't fight their players and allow them to actually play their characters.you are correct, we dont, ive never had a game where anyone successfully maps an entire dungeon without fighting the entire dungeon.
but hey if you like rolling skills twice as your main shtick, have at it.
My players map everything the moment they get Clairvoyance and prying eye. No spells yield more dividends than these, and there's next to no way to stop them.
That's a LOT if 4th level spell slots to map everything with Clairvoyance, in a dungeon of any size...
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you are correct, we dont, ive never had a game where anyone successfully maps an entire dungeon without fighting the entire dungeon.
but hey if you like rolling skills twice as your main shtick, have at it.
Nothing can prevent an Eidolon to map the dungeon until the next encounter. So, you map the dungeon, trigger all traps (they can't affect you) until the next encounter. Unmanifest, heal the Eidolon, buff and get to the encounter room 3 rounds later knowing all the monsters in there, fight, go back to the entrance of the dungeon, rince, repeat. It's RAW, as much as Sneak Attack. The Eidolon is the ultimate scout, it maps all the dungeon and disarm all the traps all by itself.
In my opinion, it's overpowered.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's a LOT if 4th level spell slots to map everything with Clairvoyance, in a dungeon of any size...
Thats only a concern if they have some pressing concern to clear it today.
That's likely to be a bigger deal in Agents of Edgewatch than it was in Age of Ashes, but even at level 7 there's something to be said for making Clairvoyance your 4th level spell(s).
Knowledge is power, and forewarned is forearmed and all that.
Its really powerful to know what you're going into.
you are correct, we dont, ive never had a game where anyone successfully maps an entire dungeon without fighting the entire dungeon.
but hey if you like rolling skills twice as your main shtick, have at it.
Nothing can prevent an Eidolon to map the dungeon until the next encounter. So, you map the dungeon, trigger all traps (they can't affect you) until the next encounter. Unmanifest, heal the Eidolon thanks to double Treat Wounds and get to the encounter room knowing all the monsters in there, fight, go back to the entrance of the dungeon, rince, repeat. It's RAW, as much as Sneak Attack. The Eidolon is the ultimate scout, it maps all the dungeon and disarm all the traps all by itself.
In my opinion, it's overpowered.
After taking time to Treat Wounds, it's a pretty bold assumption that the same things will be in the same room.
After taking time to Treat Wounds, it's a pretty bold assumption that the same things will be in the same room.you are correct, we dont, ive never had a game where anyone successfully maps an entire dungeon without fighting the entire dungeon.
but hey if you like rolling skills twice as your main shtick, have at it.
Nothing can prevent an Eidolon to map the dungeon until the next encounter. So, you map the dungeon, trigger all traps (they can't affect you) until the next encounter. Unmanifest, heal the Eidolon thanks to double Treat Wounds and get to the encounter room knowing all the monsters in there, fight, go back to the entrance of the dungeon, rince, repeat. It's RAW, as much as Sneak Attack. The Eidolon is the ultimate scout, it maps all the dungeon and disarm all the traps all by itself.
In my opinion, it's overpowered.
Thinking more about it, I've rephrased my previous message. Just take 3 rounds to heal and buff and get to the room. In 3 rounds, things should not have moved much. You actually don't even need 3 rounds to do all that.
So, no more surprise in dungeons, you're prebuffed for all combats and you can Recall Knowledge on all monsters before the fight start. And I don't see anything preventing that.
After taking time to Treat Wounds, it's a pretty bold assumption that the same things will be in the same room.you are correct, we dont, ive never had a game where anyone successfully maps an entire dungeon without fighting the entire dungeon.
but hey if you like rolling skills twice as your main shtick, have at it.
Nothing can prevent an Eidolon to map the dungeon until the next encounter. So, you map the dungeon, trigger all traps (they can't affect you) until the next encounter. Unmanifest, heal the Eidolon thanks to double Treat Wounds and get to the encounter room knowing all the monsters in there, fight, go back to the entrance of the dungeon, rince, repeat. It's RAW, as much as Sneak Attack. The Eidolon is the ultimate scout, it maps all the dungeon and disarm all the traps all by itself.
In my opinion, it's overpowered.
Remember, NPCs are not omniscient and lack GM knowledge and experience. They should react like people - not necessarily optimally.
Its entirely reasonable they may be there arguing about whether the crazy disappearing ghost thing even existed at all.
I've never been a proponent of NPCs alays reacting optimally. The post I was responding to read like a (not actually that uncommon) assumption of all the NPCs not reacting at all, just hanging out in their assigned room as a properly sized encounter.
I'll just say most DMs I've played with would see that as adversarial behavior. Keep doing something that feels too good to be true and bad things tend to happen to you.
Thematically the things summoner can do are fantastic, but compared to the raw power of the closest comparison, druid with pet, it feels lacking.
After taking time to Treat Wounds, it's a pretty bold assumption that the same things will be in the same room.you are correct, we dont, ive never had a game where anyone successfully maps an entire dungeon without fighting the entire dungeon.
but hey if you like rolling skills twice as your main shtick, have at it.
Nothing can prevent an Eidolon to map the dungeon until the next encounter. So, you map the dungeon, trigger all traps (they can't affect you) until the next encounter. Unmanifest, heal the Eidolon thanks to double Treat Wounds and get to the encounter room knowing all the monsters in there, fight, go back to the entrance of the dungeon, rince, repeat. It's RAW, as much as Sneak Attack. The Eidolon is the ultimate scout, it maps all the dungeon and disarm all the traps all by itself.
In my opinion, it's overpowered.Remember, NPCs are not omniscient and lack GM knowledge and experience. They should react like people - not necessarily optimally.
Its entirely reasonable they may be there arguing about whether the crazy disappearing ghost thing even existed at all.
it also means that its entirely reasonable things wont be the same 18 seconds later
it also means that its entirely reasonable things wont be the same 18 seconds later
Ok, so let's reduce it. Your Eidolon is 60 feet in front of the party.
Round 1: Unmanifest or Stride twice, party buffs, Eidolon heal.Round 2: Sudden Charge the enemies or Stride + Fireball.
Less than 6 seconds, is it enough for things not to be the same? Because on the player side, you had 9 actions of buffing/healing done, the ambush has been cancelled and maybe 2 Recall Knowledge checks if your Eidolon Strided instead of Unmanifested. That's a lot more happening than what most monsters can do. And encounters with timers are rare so if the characters take one extra round to finish an encounter it will rarely have an impact on anything.
it also means that its entirely reasonable things wont be the same 18 seconds laterOk, so let's reduce it. Your Eidolon is 60 feet in front of the party.
Round 1: Unmanifest or Stride twice, party buffs, Eidolon heal.
Round 2: Sudden Charge the enemies or Stride + Fireball.
Less than 6 seconds, is it enough for things not to be the same? Because on the player side, you had 9 actions of buffing/healing done, the ambush has been cancelled and maybe 2 Recall Knowledge checks if your Eidolon Strided instead of Unmanifested. That's a lot more happening than what most monsters can do. And encounters with timers are rare so if the characters take one extra round to finish an encounter it will rarely have an impact on anything.
Just imagine if all foes aren't ravenous kill hungry murder monsters, and do anything other than instantly attack anything they see.
Does nothing yell "Halt, who goes there! Identify yourself!" For anyone else?
The whole "Eidolon as perfect scout" thing is interesting, but if we presume that the party has a chance to prepare based on the Eidolon's scouting, then we also assume that the NPCs can prepare.
I really don't think it's any more powerful than a Rogue scouting ahead and using a Potion of Invisibility after failing their stealth roll. Would we assume that a group of NPCs would shrug and say "well, I guess that rogue wasn't actually there after all?"
And in any case, if the party starts prebuffing, that will kick off initiative anyways, so even if they manage to get a creature into the enemy's room and out without a problem/without a big problem, the act of making use of that intelligence will somewhat negate the benefit.
Bottom line for me: The gold standard of scouting is the stealth/invisible creature who can get in and get out undetected. Eidolon gives you a convenient "on my initiative I can extract the creature quickly" option, but it's not going to give flawless intelligence without consequence unless Stealth is very good - and the Rogue is still probably better at that than your Eidolon.
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I really don't think it's any more powerful than a Rogue scouting ahead and using a Potion of Invisibility after failing their stealth roll. Would we assume that a group of NPCs would shrug and say "well, I guess that rogue wasn't actually there after all?"
I see this assumption a lot, and it seems to be based on the mistaken belief that a failure on a sneak check reveals the rogue and ruins the scouting attempt.
A failure while sneaking makes you Hidden instead of undetected. A hidden creature could be a Rogue... or it could be a mouse, rat, cat, or any other thing that likes to hide.
Foes may investigate, but Rogue or Eidolon, it shouldn't be universal that a single failed skill check = the jig is up.
In your example with the invisible rogue, if the NPCs are unable to find the rogue... yes, most of them should dismiss it.
If NPCs are going to be run like a video game, Metal Gear Solid is a better inspiration for stealthing than Doom.
Maybe I misread something here, but how would your Eidolon be immune to traps? If they take damage, you take damage. And manifesting your Eidolon is a 3 action activity which would take a full 6 seconds to use, by the time your character could ever think to do it, you are already being hit by whatever trap they triggered.
Maybe I misread something here, but how would your Eidolon be immune to traps? If they take damage, you take damage. And manifesting your Eidolon is a 3 action activity which would take a full 6 seconds to use, by the time your character could ever think to do it, you are already being hit by whatever trap they triggered.
Hitpoint damage is ephemeral and easily healed with time. Most traps don't reset faster than you can freely heal any damage suffered by the Eidolon, which by its nature is in no danger of permanent damage from the trap.
Situations where you cant heal afterwards are not as common as some would advertise.
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I mean, I suppose. But any GM who's willing to let you trigger traps around a dungeon that likely has creatures in it (who probably set the traps) and doesn't have that raise an alarm isn't doing their job.
The point of the game is to create a narrative through challenges. If the party starts trying to game the system, the GM is obliged to counter that accordingly.
Soon the piecemeal groups of enemies the party was expecting to face will be gathering together. If the party retreats, they will return to find the traps have gotten more numerous, and possibly more deadly.
If you are saying that the Eidolon should march just ahead of the party so that it triggers whatever traps/ambushes are waiting, why put a party member in danger when you could just have an actual summoned minion perform that role?
I mean, I suppose. But any GM who's willing to let you trigger traps around a dungeon that likely has creatures in it (who probably set the traps) and doesn't have that raise an alarm isn't doing their job.
The point of the game is to create a narrative through challenges. If the party starts trying to game the system, the GM is obliged to counter that accordingly.
Soon the piecemeal groups of enemies the party was expecting to face will be gathering together. If the party retreats, they will return to find the traps have gotten more numerous, and possibly more deadly.
If you are saying that the Eidolon should march just ahead of the party so that it triggers whatever traps/ambushes are waiting, why put a party member in danger when you could just have an actual summoned minion perform that role?
If the NPCs respond to the triggering of a trap and find... nothing. No body, no blood, no nothing. What exactly the reasonable response?
Its probably to look for someone to blame for a crappy trap that set itself off.
NPCs do not have videogame omniscience. From their point of view, the world does not revolves around the PCs. Unless they already have specific knowledge, which often hard to justify, they should be reacting like people with limited knowledge of their situation.
And people would not react to such a situation by setting out to determine which group of adventurers hypothetical Ghost Scout is responsible.
Npcs also shouldn't have infinite manpower or resources to make infinite traps.
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You can die very quicky doing that:
In Fall of plaguestone we have:
SPEAR LAUNCHER
Stealth DC 20 (trained)
Ranged spear +14, Damage 2d6+6 piercing
At level 2 your eidolon will have:
10 + 4 proficiency + 3 dex - 17 AC
The Spear will hit on 3+ ( 90% ) crit on 13+ ( 40% )
A critical will do 20 to 36 (26 avg) damage and at level 2 you will have between 24 (elf 8 con ) to 38 hit points (scar orc 16 con).
Thats just one trap!
You can get dying 2 with one hit and if no one else on the party has a spell to avoid it you can miss twice and die.
A rogue for example can get skill/class feats to find the trap and a higher AC 10 + 4 proficiency + 4 dex + 1 armor + 2 reaction/class/skill feat total 21 AC, 20% less chance to get hit/crit.
The Eidolon perception is +4/+5
The rogue perception can be +9 with +3 wis, expert +4, level 2
Plus a possible bonus to find traps with skill/class feat.
Again, 20% extra chance, maybe more.
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I mean, I suppose. But any GM who's willing to let you trigger traps around a dungeon that likely has creatures in it (who probably set the traps) and doesn't have that raise an alarm isn't doing their job.
I think you haven't understood my point.
The Eidolon is walking, stealthily. You are looking throuh its eyes looking for traps. That is something a Rogue can't do without a feat. First.Now, the Rogue is better in Perception/Stealth, fine. Still, nat 1 exist. And if the Rogue walks on a pressure plate and takes a Disintegrate: RIP Rogue. If the Eidolon does the same, the Summoner goes to 0hp next to the Cleric. No issue.
If the enemies react to the trap. In one case, they have a bloodied Rogue trying to get away with it. In the other case, they have a bloodied Eidolon teleporting wherever you want.
The Rogue risks his life scouting, as if he falls in a trap or in an ambush, he can end up dead as a dornail. The worst that can happen to the Eidolon is for the Summoner to fall at 0hp next to the Cleric in a safe place.
The best scout in the game is not the one with the highest Perception/Stealth, it's the one that can always get away without issue. That's why Rogues always scout a few feet away from the party so that the party can intervene if something bad happens. The Eidolon scouts out of sight, as nothing can happen to it.
And at the end of the day, the Eidolon is not much worse than the Rogue in Perception/Stealth and should do fine as a scout even without taking the survival argument into consideration.
Also, there may be some dungeons where having a forward scout may not be the best idea (for whatever reasons). But many dungeons are quiet, with enemies lacking coordination. In these cases, having a disposable scout is very interesting.
Summons are nice, too. But they lack the Share Senses ability, they only last one minute, they are not as intelligent as the Eidolon, they cost spell slots, you can't tell them to go out of sight unless you know a common language, etc... They are good when you are pretty sure there's a trap and you want to activate it. They are bad if you have a big complex to explore.
I mean, I suppose. But any GM who's willing to let you trigger traps around a dungeon that likely has creatures in it (who probably set the traps) and doesn't have that raise an alarm isn't doing their job.I think you haven't understood my point.
The Eidolon is walking, stealthily. You are looking throuh its eyes looking for traps. That is something a Rogue can't do without a feat. First.
Now, the Rogue is better in Perception/Stealth, fine. Still, nat 1 exist. And if the Rogue walks on a pressure plate and takes a Disintegrate: RIP Rogue. If the Eidolon does the same, the Summoner goes to 0hp next to the Cleric. No issue.
If the enemies react to the trap. In one case, they have a bloodied Rogue trying to get away with it. In the other case, they have a bloodied Eidolon teleporting wherever you want.The Rogue risks his life scouting, as if he falls in a trap or in an ambush, he can end up dead as a dornail. The worst that can happen to the Eidolon is for the Summoner to fall at 0hp next to the Cleric in a safe place.
The best scout in the game is not the one with the highest Perception/Stealth, it's the one that can always get away without issue. That's why Rogues always scout a few feet away from the party so that the party can intervene if something bad happens. The Eidolon scouts out of sight, as nothing can happen to it.
And at the end of the day, the Eidolon is not much worse than the Rogue in Perception/Stealth and should do fine as a scout even without taking the survival argument into consideration.
I just thought of something! Have your eidolon scout at very low hp. That way, in case of danger its either guaranteed to poof (leaving no evidence) or it can off itself as a single action to poof, escaping and leaving no evidence.
Also potentially confusing anyone who sees it do so.
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It means you are at low hp... I prefer not to!