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Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity

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Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity
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Greatest Good!

You don’t have to be a holy warrior to be a true hero. Join in the fight against evil and be a paragon of righteousness as a character of any class with Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity. Arm yourself with a host of new options specifically designed for good-aligned characters—like new fighting techniques striking the balance between capture and execution, life-fostering magic, rules for the redemption of evil characters, and morally challenging alignment-changing alchemy. With new insights into what it means to play good-aligned hardliners and how to get paid for being a good guy, deal with evil companions, redeem villains, and handle all those goblin babies, this book will change the way you think about playing honorable characters. Also, learn more about some of the greatest do-gooders and virtuous organizations on Golarion—with a focus on nonreligious groups, since the fight between good and evil doesn’t have to unfold entirely in the arena of faith. Join the ranks of the just with Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity! Inside this book, you’ll find:

  • Detailed discussion on what it means to play a character of each of the three good alignments, including ideas for character generation and specific challenges of these alignments.
  • A look into good-aligned races, good-aligned homelands, and good-aligned organizations for your character, as well as some of the challenges of being good and what happens when good characters come from bad places.
  • A method for redeeming evil characters who your adventuring party encounters during the campaign.
  • New good-based feats, magical weapons and gear, rage powers, rogue talents, subdomains, and more!

This Pathfinder Player Companion is intended for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, but can easily be incorporated into any fantasy world.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-511-2

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Shallow Treatment, with a Handful of Good Options

3/5 —

Champions of Purity is a sort of sequel to the earlier [/i]Faiths of Purity[/i]. Whereas the previous book was primarily about the gods and their devotees (clerics and paladins), Champions of Purity has a broader theme: characters of good alignment generally. Since PCs of any class can be on the side of good, a book designed for those characters makes sense. But although there are certainly some useful class options here and there, the book as a whole adopts the scattergun approach of throwing a lot of stuff out there and seeing what sticks. Written mostly by a crop of freelancers, the book is a loose collection of shallow two-page entries on vaguely-related topics. It doesn't really have much in the way of depth, but that seems to be the norm for many of the books in the Player Companion line.

Still, to give credit where it's due, we have to admire the great cover of Seelah cutting through a horde of monsters. The inside front cover is a table of good-aligned deities in Golarion that includes the usual suspects from the Core Rulebook along with some that are lesser-known, including several from the Asian-themed Dragon Empires. The inside back cover does an odd thing and introduces a new feat, "Summon Good Monster," that allows good-aligned spellcasters to substitute a good-aligned creature from the accompanying table in place of what the spell would normally allow, and to give them Diehard to boot. Not too shabby!

The book proper starts with a two-page introduction, "Why Be Good?", that talks about some more specific motivations for PCs, like freedom, honor, justice, mercy, order, and more. It then goes on to give some suggestions as to where characters with those goals might hail from geographically.

Next, each of the three good alignments (Lawful Good, Neutral Good, and Chaotic Good) are discussed in a separate two-page entry which is divided into Philosophies (Lawful Good PCs might be seen as Crusaders or Guardians, for example, while Neutral Good PCs might be seen as Mediators or Redeemers), Advantages & Challenges (in terms of role-playing), Opportunities & Allies (ways those PCs might fit into Golarion specifically), and finally Traits (three new ones each). One of the criticisms I have of the book is that its treatment of alignment issues only barely skims the surface: there's no mention, for example, of how hard it is to play a truly good character when the lowest common denominator is lazy players with a "kill things and take their stuff" mentality. Characters of good alignment face hard decisions and restrictions that other alignments don't, and this can create problems for groups. These are some of the issues that would be worth discussing.

The remaining two-page sections consist of the following:

"Paragons of Virtue" has a line or two on good-aligned races (Aasimars, Catfolk, Elves, and Samsarans), good-aligned organisations (like knightly orders), and good-aligned homelands (like Andoran), but it's a very cursory treatment and of very little use to those familiar with Golarion. Four new traits are included.

"Good Characters in Bad Situations" raises the classic "what do you do with goblin babies" quandary and then suggests (in a sentence or two each) some "bad places" that good characters could come from. Again, the book has identified an interesting issue but has a shallow and wishy-washy treatment of it. Don't look for any deep insights into alignment and RPGs here. (I do love the artwork of the samurai with the goblin babies!)

"Heavenly Virtues" presents one new feat called "Virtuous Creed" that has different effects depending on which specific virtue the PC identifies with (such as humility, courage, freedom, etc.). In a way, it's like six feats in one, which is interesting, but the different virtues have very different power levels in a mechanical sense.

"Redemption" presents a rules sub-system for tracking an evil creature's progress towards becoming good, along with a variety of penances they can do to help atone. I'm skeptical of these little sub-systems that I know will never be referenced again or expanded upon. This one looks a bit rough, but I guess it does add some content and perhaps guidance to a GM dealing with the issue. I wouldn't follow it too strictly, however.

"Divine Influence" introduces seven new clerical subdomains: Cooperation, Dragon, Imagination, Judgment, Redemption, Revelation, and Revelry. Each subdomain replaces the domain spells and granted power of a specific Core Rulebook domain. It looks like there are some good options.

"Fighting the Good Fight" is a miscellany: a new barbarian rage power (Celestial Totem), two new inquisitor inquisitions (Final Rest and Recovery), six new feats (including one very useful one to keep you from accidentally killing enemies outright and a silly one that adds a single point of damage when you hit with a good-aligned weapon), and a sidebar on subduing and binding opponents (no new rules, but it's useful to have the material all in one place).

"Grace and Guile" has a handful of new alchemist discoveries, a couple of bardic masterpieces, and three new rogue talents. The book really is trying to have something for everyone! The alchemist discoveries seem reasonable, one of the bardic masterpieces seems crazily overpowered (blinding and deafening, or even stunning, all evil creatures that hear the performance and fail a save), and I really like the rogue talent Sacrifice Self that allows a rogue to ignore the effects of their evasion ability to help shield an ally from harm.

"Sublime Spellcraft" has a couple of new summoner evolutions (I wouldn't touch summoners with a ten-foot-pole, so I have no opinion of these), three new witch patrons (which are apparently just bland lists of replacement spells), a few new hexes, and two new wizard arcane discoveries. I mostly liked what I saw here.

"Spells of the Just" includes ten new spells, most of which are for both divine and arcane spellcasters. I really liked the little story in the sidebar about how these spells came to be known, and I wish there were more attempts like this to explain the appearance of new spells and magic items.

"Tools for Good" introduces several new magic items. Although damned expensive, I really liked the Devil's Key (allowing you to follow an outsider to its home plane to kill it for good) and the Equalizer Shield (creating an antimagic field to stymie those pesky spellcasters!).

I think books like this have little enduring value because there's hardly any interesting setting lore or discussion, and readers will just cherry-pick a new spell or class option from an online database. Buy this one if you need to for PFS, but otherwise you can safely give it a pass.

Some interesting parts, but mostly uninspiring

3/5 —

I liked the first half, which explored the different ways to support the cause of Good, but I thought it lacked depth and I would have welcomed more discussion and examples of gameplay or stories in the campaign world for context. e.g. the illustration of Valeros in the Neutral Good section helped me understand what the writers were trying to convey. I found the second half less interesting, but those who enjoy technical details may find it useful.

My main gripe is that I expected a focus on Champions and the stuff that champions do, but I felt like I was reading the guide for Men-at-Arms or Sergeants for Purity.

Useful for many classes, but not necessarily all good characters

4/5 —

Champions of Purity will be useful for some good characters, and I think this depends less on the character’s class and more on the character concept. If you are creating a character that is built around his or her goodness – call it good with a capital “G” – I think there’s a fair amount of useful material here, no matter what class your character is. If not, you will probably pass over most of the character options for ones in other sources that provide more mechanical benefit or highlight other aspects of the character’s personality, talents, and backstory. There’s also a fair amount of space devoted to collecting information found in other sourcebooks (e.g., good-aligned deities, races, organizations, homelands, nonlethal weapons, spells with the good descriptor).

I am giving it 4 stars because if you are picking this up specifically to help you build characters which are "actively" rather than "passively" good, I think it works well.

See my full review at my blog Delver's Diary here.

Worth every penny

4/5 —

Champions of Purity is a good quality product with large collection of rules options for most classes along with a range of role playing advice for anyone interested in a playing a Good character.

Champions of Purity starts with an examination of good, trying to answer the general question of “Why to be good?” and then focusing in each of the three alignments individually. It provides generalized motivations for any sort of good character along with locations where characters with each motivation might originate. This provides a nice connection to Golarion in a book that is relatively light on setting details. The different alignment focuses provide examples of different types of philosophies that characters of a given alignment may fall into, along with some of the pros and cons of playing each good alignment. Golarion specific information about opportunities and allies that each alignment may be involved with round out the sections. The only concerns I have with these sections are the listing of the different philosophies, and with the included traits. I worry that players reading these, especially if they’re new players, may see the philosophy suggestions as more rigid limitations rather than just possible ways for characters of each alignment to be portrayed. The traits in each section are listed as complementing a given alignment, but having them listed in a section devoted to that alignment gives the impression that they’re only for that alignment.

The next section is entitled Paragons of Virtue and covers a range of setting information to make a completely Good character, what race to play, organizations to be a part of, and where to be from. Generally this is presented well though I was surprised that none of the good churches were mentioned under the good aligned organizations. The inclusion of countries in Tian Xia as potential character origins was nice, as Tian Xia is often underrepresented in most products. There’s also a list of potential Prestige Classes for good characters, which I appreciated because it’s often hard for players to know about what classes are out there, as they show up in a variety of products. One minor complaint I did have here was that in one of this sections traits they mention an empyreal lord; it seems like there should have been an explanation somewhere of what an empyreal lord is, as players may not know this.

This is followed by Good Characters in Bad Situations, which examines moral quandaries that good players may find themselves in, and shows how different good characters may react to the same situation in different ways. This is quite well done as it covers situations that may come up during gameplay, though a greater list of actual evil acts would have been nice. The list of how good characters fit within “evil” nations is nice, but all the different lists of where good characters come from makes me think that perhaps they all should have been together. It also seems like it could have been a good place to cover how good characters deal with worshiping neutral (or even evil) deities.

The center spread in Champions of Purity is devoted to Heavenly Virtues, creeds for players to live by that provide benefits when the associated feat is taken. All of the benefits seem to be reasonably balanced, but the creeds will require some DM work to keep track of, as breaking a creed means the character loses the benefit of the feat. Some creeds may not be appropriate in all campaigns as the situations they reference may not be present, making them impossible to violate. The art on these two pages is great, with a stained glass style that really works with the virtue theme. On the topic of virtues, I’m starting to feel like Virtue is becoming a bit of an overloaded term, now it may be because I’m running Rise of the Runelords where they come up a bit, but perhaps a different term should have been used.

Redemption is covered next, with a rules framework for an evil character to be turned from the dark side. It seems like a good system to me, though it will require a large amount of DM tracking; a lot of that could probably be avoided by combining it with in game story events. It does include rules for one or more characters helping a character seeking redemption, but I feel that some examination of how a PC could help an NPC seek redemption in a more role playing sense would have been good (and potentially more frequently useful).

The remaining sections of the book are a collection of character options, firstly separated up into Divine, Combat, Skilled, and Arcane characters, and then followed by new spells and items. The divine portion provides details of all the good deities which complements the inside front cover where all the deity’s Domains, Favored Weapons and the like are listed. A number of new subdomains are presented, with Cooperation and Redemption having the most interesting powers. For combat focused characters there are new rage powers and inquisitions, as well as a handful of new feats. There’s also a sidebar on taking enemies alive, going over the rules and options relating to subdual attacks and binding opponents. Some coverage of how to bind someone during a grapple and maybe a feat to go along with it would have been good fit here. For skill based characters there are new alchemical discoveries, masterpieces, and rogue talents, to go with a sidebar on character types for less straight forward good characters. The most interesting new options here are a couple of discoveries that can forcibly change the alignment of the imbiber. Included in the descriptions are the moralistic questions that arise from forcing an alignment change on someone. In the Sublime Spellcasting section arcane casters are the focus, with summoners getting new evolutions, witches getting new patrons and hexes, and wizards getting new arcane discoveries. The mechanics of the Celestial Appearance evolution are interesting, where it’s one 3-point evolution with an increasing point cost if you want to do more with it, so it can be up to a 7-point evolution if you so desire. Based on its name and effect I can see a devil/demon/etc. version showing up somewhere along the line.

In Spells of the Just there are 10 new spells, all with the good type, and a sidebar detailing a scroll that contains them all. I particularly like the Angelic Aspect chain of spells, and Burst of Radiance. For magic items there are a couple of new weapon special abilities and then 9 new magic items (which are said to be wondrous items, when only 2 of them are wondrous items). Surprisingly most of the items are new magic weapons or armor, with only 2 being not combat related. The neatest one is probably the Mantle of the Protector, a way to share some of a character’s armor bonuses. My only concern with all this new rule content is that a lot of it makes players very good at killing Evil things, which may make it on the high end of the power scale in campaigns with few neutral opponents. For instance I can see this material having a big draw in the upcoming Wrath of the Righteous AP.

The art in Champions of Purity is top notch, with good portraits of most of the iconics and a few others; I especially like the ones of Feiya and Kyra. The cover is also very good; however the two other larger pieces in the product are not really to my liking. On the topic of graphic design the font used on the cover and as the section headers is truly awful, I understand that its look probably matches the content of the book is some fashion but this is a situation where function is more important than form.

Champions of Purity is a great product which adds to the quality of the Player Companion line. There’s lots of interesting material here both for those looking for roleplaying ideas and suggestions and those looking for new mechanical tools to play with. A similar book for the neutral alignments would be good, as I find it harder to player neutral characters than good, though it may be hard to find as much neutral specific rules material as there’s fewer obvious things to build off of and because the core rules are written in a rather neutrally aligned way already.

4/5 —

I agree with almost everything that the previous poster mentioned (except the 3E material). There are areas I wish they had gone more in depth or expanded upon a topic, but over all, a very good book. Unlike many of the other player's guide books, this one does seem to offer options for basically everyone, rather than focus on a handfull of classes. The amount of mechanics in this book is great, and shows that it doesn't detract from the fluff material. Not too much of it is terribly etting specific, either.

The art is pretty good, particularly the cover and the center fold, while most of the other art is generally just various iconics is some sort of pose, but not really relvant to the topics.

The magic items are ok, not great. Nothing really jumps out, with a lot of it at the higher GP end.

The spells mostly look nice. I'm not really sure, (yes I know that Alchemists are their new baby and all) that the Alchemist's materail either needed to be in this book or was really thought out that well. Even at 12th+ level, a single save that can rob some clases of all class features (and can argueably require an Atonement even if it's a temp thing) probably needs to be errata'd a lot or out.

I'm very happy that Roles where not included in this book. Don't care for them. The Virtues look good, though I wish there there where more, or perhaps some of them would be switched out. I'm sad to see that they require a Feat to utilize, as I'm not sure most of them really are worth a Feat, and what's worse the main classes that the flavor really fits are generally the ones that are totally Feat-starved. About the same power level as the Knightly Traits in Knights of the Inner Sea, except in general even more situational, that I'm not really sure they are really worth a Trait. Other than that, they are great and look interesting.

All in all, a great and fun book. I would love to see more books like this, both in the amount of material presented as well as focusing on Good, heroic characters and play. I'd definetly buy a Champions of Purity 2 and 3, or a similar book that is not setting specific, but along the same lines.

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So, since people are already talking about the totems and all...

What is the general direction of the the feats/traits and how are they different from what we've seen before, I.e. the oath traits in Knights of the Inner Sea (lackluster, I thought), and many feats that require you to be able to channel divinity first anyway?

Like, I'm playing a LG Fighter trying to replicate the flavor of the old Knight class. I miss having some benefit to keeping to a code of honor, besides warm fuzzies. Is there anything at all here for me?
Kwizzy wrote:

So, since people are already talking about the totems and all...

What is the general direction of the the feats/traits and how are they different from what we've seen before, I.e. the oath traits in Knights of the Inner Sea (lackluster, I thought), and many feats that require you to be able to channel divinity first anyway?

Like, I'm playing a LG Fighter trying to replicate the flavor of the old Knight class. I miss having some benefit to keeping to a code of honor, besides warm fuzzies. Is there anything at all here for me?

Definitely. There are at least four feats that are straight-up good for Good fighters: pull a lethal attack to leave a target at -1 and stable, gain a sacred bonus to AC and saves against evil creatures (teamwork feat), do extra damage when using good-aligned weapons, and be unaffected by spells that specifically harm good-aligned targets.

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, there is the Virtuous Creed series of Feats. I say series because you may take it up to six times, each time associated with a particular Virtue, the Virtues being Humility, Courage, Freedom, Purity, Protection & Mercy.
Each Virtue requires a particular Creed to be followed, obviously, but each also provides benefits, for instance, so long as you follow the Creed of Mercy if you follow that Creed, you take no penalties when dealing non-lethal damage with a Lethal Damage weapon.
Shadow Lodge

Very odd that they both chose those as virtues, and went away from the 7 Heavenly virtues when they have the 7 Deadly sins so ingrained in the game.
Mikaze wrote:
Quandary wrote:


Is there anything that ties into those Nabambyaan Arcanists? White Necromancy?
No White Necromancy(though I do recommend Kobold Quarterly's awesome take on that), but there is a little bit for the Magaambya: Ancient scrolls Old-Mage Jatembe recovered from the original Mwangi civilization. They can serve as focus items, boosting your capability to cast good-aligned spells(and hindering your abilities with evil ones).

<3 Old-Mage Jatembe.

Silver Crusade
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Very odd that they both chose those as virtues, and went away from the 7 Heavenly virtues when they have the 7 Deadly sins so ingrained in the game.

Perhaps because equalling positive virtues with Christian ideology leads to all those "My Paladin can't be in a group with a gay person because sodomy is a sin" people, and I doubt we need more of that.

Silver Crusade
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Very odd that they both chose those as virtues, and went away from the 7 Heavenly virtues when they have the 7 Deadly sins so ingrained in the game.

One way to look at it is that the Seven Heavenly Virtues are exactly that: being Heavenly. Meanwhile the virtues in Champion's centerfold are those shared across all three of the Good planes.

Which then raises the question of what the virtues of Nirvana and Elysium are. :)

Lilith wrote:


<3 Old-Mage Jatembe.

We really need to get that full artwork of him someday. The one that was cropped to a portrait for Inner Sea Magic. :)

Shadow Lodge
Gorbacz wrote:
Perhaps because equalling positive virtues with Christian ideology leads to all those "My Paladin can't be in a group with a gay person because sodomy is a sin" people, and I doubt we need more of that.

That's a whole other topic, my friend.

I'm not sure I see "Humility, Courage, Freedom, and Purity" as overly Good aligned, (being of import as that is what the book is about, right). Humility and Purity both seem like ideal LN virtues, Courage a virtue that is applicable to any and every one pretty equally, if not moreso on the Evil side, while Freedom is CN.

I still don't have my book, so I could be wrong, it just seems like they went out of their way to avoid the Virtues and went with something very generic. I get that Paizo is kind of antichristian or whatever, but thats not really what I'm asking. I guess it's more how are these virtues tied in with the concept of Good over and above other alignments?
Silver Crusade
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
I get that Paizo is kind of antichristian

:/

1. That is one hell of a leap and a non-sequitor.

2. Is this really the thread for that particular debate explosion?
Shadow Lodge

I'm really not sure what your saying? I said that that was a whole other topic (with my intention being that I didn't want to talk about it here or go off topic). I'm honestly curious about the concepts of virtues in the book, because I see sneak peaks, but I don't have mine to check out yet.
Project Manager
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The Seven Heavenly Virtues don't really fit with a lot of the good deities, and in fact may be opposed to their philosophies. Chastity, for example, as a virtue would actively conflict with the practices and worship of a number of good deities. Cayden Cailean would probably object to temperance as an objectively good virtue.

Choosing to draw from other religious sources, and refraining from being bound by Christian worldviews about what constitutes goodness, is not the same as being "antichristian." It's simply not being Christian. But that is indeed a discussion for a different thread.
Liberty's Edge
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All those virtues seem to epitomise Good to me.

Humility - Modesty and not being arrogant. Not emphasising your own abilities and achievements in the face of other peoples' - or perhaps more relevantly, thinking that you are more important than anyone else. I don't think this is a lawful trait at all - chaotic good people tend to think that every individual is equally as important, which is why they need their freedoms... etc.

Courage - Having the strength to do what you need to do. I have no idea why you would think this leans to evil - it's far easier to take the easy route than to have the strength - courage - to do the right thing.

Freedom - Chaotic neutral? Maybe in the extreme - but y'know, the extreme of all virtues is bad. CG thinks everyone should have the freedom to do what they want (provided they don't harm another). LG thinks everyone should live in freedom from terror and hatred.

Purity - Again, don't get how this is lawful... I am assuming that this refers to you not secretly being a terrible person (being free of vice) rather than, say, traditional purity (i.e. virginal). Pretty sure all Good people don't like you to be a liar or a thief or power-hungry, etc.
Silver Crusade
Alice Margatroid wrote:

Humility - Modesty and not being arrogant. Not emphasising your own abilities and achievements in the face of other peoples' - or perhaps more relevantly, thinking that you are more important than anyone else. I don't think this is a lawful trait at all - chaotic good people tend to think that every individual is equally as important, which is why they need their freedoms... etc.

It's also useful for avoiding the monkeysphere trap. That is, not elevating a particular group you're in(be it faith, family, country, race, etc.) over others in a dehumanizing way, whether intentionally or not. It helps avoid falling into an "Us vs Them" mindset and forces one to keep in mind why some battles need to be fought.

Shadow Lodge
Jessica Price wrote:
The Seven Heavenly Virtues don't really fit with a lot of the good deities, and in fact may be opposed to their philosophies. Chastity, for example, as a virtue would actively conflict with the practices and worship of a number of good deities. Cayden Cailean would probably object to temperance as an objectively good virtue.

But wouldn't Cayden also be very against the virtue of purity and humility? A strong case could be made that Iori, Iomedae, and Torag, (and to a lesser extent Sarenrae and Erastil) would find nothing virtuous about freedom (dependant on what exactly that is suppossed to mean), but rather that those people are undisciplined, advocate ignoring tradition, and too tied to their own desires and whims to achieve much good. Abaddar would seem the most likely to hold humility as a virtue, being the deity of civilization and nobility, not someone like say Desna or Shelyn, whose spheres of power deal with beauty, art, dreams, and luck?

Vs other virtues that might be a little more universal, such as self-sacrifice, endurence, honesty/truth, or others. I'm honestly not sure that a few individuals not liking things makes them less virtuous as much as illistrates that those individuals are simply lacking in those virtues. :)
Project Manager

Why would Cayden Cailean be against the virtue of purity (I don't really see him having an issue with humility, but I suppose you could make a case)? And what would Desna or Shelyn have against humility? I'm not sure how Irori or Iomedae (or Sarenrae) would be against freedom.

Have you read the book? Because the virtues may have different emphases from what you're assuming.
Shadow Lodge

No, the entire point of my question is that I have not yet recieved my preorder, so I'm curious. I'm assuming that purity means not becoming intoxicated, using drugs, and physical and spiritual things (vs temporance which would be more moderation or at the right times), which is very much not the drunken god's thing. If it where more about not debasing yourself with unclean things, that's what the LN Prophets of Kelistrade, along with sexual and dietry restrictions, so again not really a Good aligned virtue. It does sound like something Irori would like, but not Cayden or to an extent even Torag whose people are know worldwide for outdrinking anyone else.

As Sarenrae is the patron deity of humanity's basically original slaving culture, she doesn't advocate slavery, but she also does not at all denounce it. So I'm assuming that freedom is not opposing slavery, but rather more along the lines of do what you feel, follow your heart, and do not be restricted by what others believe is right or wrong. Except Torag and Iomedae are very much about tradition and discipline, doing he right thing even if you don't understand why, so that sort of freedom wouldn't be something they are for. Keep in mind, these are all questions. I'm trying to understand because it interests me.
Liberty's Edge

Cayden: Humility means knowing that your own freedom is not worth restricting anyone else's. Your own desires do not trump the fact that some of them may hurt other people's. He may be the god of freedom and ale, but his clergy actually looks down on excess. One can be proud in one's achievements without being arrogant, after all.

Irori: Is not good aligned, so is irrelevant to the topic.

Iomedae/Torag/Erastil/Sarenrae: Freedom from terror and fear, as I mentioned above. Torag would be the same as Iomedae, but he would also probably consider freedom of expression as being important - he's a god of creation and the forge after all. Sarenrae probably just has a less hardline view of what is a "free" society (whereas the lawful gods would want a much more structured/lawful society in order to provide true freedom).

Abadar: Is not good aligned, so is irrelevant to the topic - but my impression of Abadar is that he wants people to prosper, and would probably not care so much if someone became incredibly arrogant about their wealth and success, so long as they keep trying to build more.

Desna/Shelyn: Why on earth would they not advocate humility? Desna is all about experience - she would look very negatively upon a follower who believed that someone's experiences are worth less than their own! And Shelyn is possibly the most modest of all the gods. Literally everyone is in love with her but she doesn't let that get to her head!
Liberty's Edge
Devil's Advocate wrote:
I'm assuming that purity means not becoming intoxicated, using drugs, and physical and spiritual things (vs temporance which would be more moderation or at the right times)

I haven't read the book - but I am 100% sure that this is not true because of NOTHING in Pathfinder that suggests that sex, drugs, or alcohol are inherently non-good!

It's purity as in absence of vice, as in you're not a liar, a cheat, a thief, a megalomaniac, a narcissist.
Silver Crusade

Re: Sarenrae, if the story of Ihys is true she essentially inherited the role of "safekeeper of free will", eh?

I have to admit I like the idea of her having some nuanced values dissonance with some of her CG counterparts by being somewhat accepting of voluntary slavery(again, free will), but it's also been pointed out that her church in Qadira(with much more brutal slavery practices far beyond anything voluntary) is ridonkulously corrupt and off the rails and due for a severe schism sometime soon.
Paizo Employee Developer
“Devil’s Advocate” wrote:
I'm not sure I see "Humility, Courage, Freedom, and Purity" as overly Good aligned, (being of import as that is what the book is about, right). Humility and Purity both seem like ideal LN virtues, Courage a virtue that is applicable to any and every one pretty equally, if not moreso on the Evil side, while Freedom is CN.

Just want to point out that humility is one of the Seven Heavenly Virtues. Chastity also historically included things other than sex, such as staying clean, healthy, and abstaining from intoxication and generally being wholesome (which fits Purity). Courage is considered one of the Cardinal Virtues (also referred to as Fortitude in some texts and circumstances). As for freedom, it has strong ties to our campaign setting, but for a historical/theological tie the concept of a divine gift of free will is pretty strong in quite a few texts.

”Mikaze” wrote:
2. Is this really the thread for that particular debate explosion?

Absolutely not. Any predictably ensuing alignment discussions should probably occur in a thread in another section of the boards (Player Companions, Campaign Setting, etc.) and not in the product thread.

Shadow Lodge

I mentioned Irori and Abaddar because without something to contrast Good too, it's kind of meaningless. If Good and Evil are actual forces rather than notions or beliefs.

I should point out I AM NOT TRYING TO HAVE AN ALIGMNET DEBATE in any way. Infact, it was not even me that mentioned that. I suggested first that that was for another thread. I also did not mention Chastity. That was someone else to show specifically how sex, drugs and the like are not evil in the setting. You seem to have just implied something different, which leaves me with even more questions about the virtues.
:(/:)
Alice Margatroid wrote:
Devil's Advocate wrote:
I'm assuming that purity means not becoming intoxicated, using drugs, and physical and spiritual things (vs temporance which would be more moderation or at the right times)

I haven't read the book - but I am 100% sure that this is not true because of NOTHING in Pathfinder that suggests that sex, drugs, or alcohol are inherently non-good!

It's purity as in absence of vice, as in you're not a liar, a cheat, a thief, a megalomaniac, a narcissist.

Having read the book 'Purity' is about not touching unclean things...which seems to translate into not touching evil items or evil creatures. Also eating food that is specialy prepared that strengthen the body and mind.

I really don't see Sarnae going for that much...as it is kinda hard to redeem evil if it is beneath you to touch it. Also beer does not strengthen the mind or body...it is a poison...so I don't really see Cayden Cailean going for that either.

Humility...is about showing others respect and not putting your needs above the mass. It also as restriction say you must keep a conservative dress.

I really don't see Shelyn going for it as beauty is sometimes not conservative...also I don't think even CG characters would go for it as because the need of the masses should not out weigh personal freedom.

Courage...you must not flee from combat if other are put in danger...in other words you will always form the rear guard.

I don't have a problem with this...though I can see this in neutrals or even evil characters.

Freedom...states being have the right to live their lives as their own. It is strongly anti slavery. But also it might oppose it LG rule that was passed for people's own good that keep them from living their lives as choosen.

Again I don't see this in LG deities traits.

Protection: Protect the weak.

No problems with this one at all.

Mercy: You must always accept a enemies surrender and must do your best to stablize them at the end of the battle. Also never bring undue suffering to the innocents.

I actualy see this as a problem for Sarenae whorshippers...which don't have any mercy for the 'unredeemable' evil.

Now that you have a summary you can discuss instead of just speculating.

I generally like them. But would say that some of them can't coexist...like Mercy and Purity...how can you stablize a evil creature if you can't touch them? And I don't think they work well with every god. But to me that makes sense as their are many paths to good.
Silver Crusade
Adam Daigle wrote:


Absolutely not. Any predictably ensuing alignment discussions should probably occur in a thread in another section of the boards (Player Companions, Campaign Setting, etc.) and not in the product thread.

Well, was wondering... ;)

Would the Whisperer of Souls weilded by Shelyn be considered an example of a Redeemed weapon?

Can't help but wonder about the brijidine that created Rythius. Besides the easy "isn't whipping kytons counterproductive?" joke, can't help but imagining her flipping the balor image around: Fiery celestial weilding an obsidian sword and a whip. And now I'm wondering if that was intentional.

Also, page 24 has the most Bowie-looking Damiel yet. :D
Paizo Employee Developer
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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I should point out I AM NOT TRYING TO HAVE AN ALIGNMENT DEBATE in any way. In fact, it was not even me that mentioned that. I suggested first that that was for another thread. I also did not mention Chastity. That was someone else to show specifically how sex, drugs and the like are not evil in the setting. You seem to have just implied something different, which leaves me with even more questions about the virtues.

:(/:)

It's cool. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or anything. I mentioned chastity because it was a connection to purity (one of the four virtues in your list of virtues you didn't see as exclusively good).

I like that you're interested in the book and I'm eager for you to get it in your hands. I can totally imagine that it can be frustrating to see people talking about a book that you just. can't. read. yet.

Despite them being in the warehouse and getting sent out to all y'all, I didn't get my hardcopy at my desk until today, so I was pulling up the PDF to reference people's questions and comments.

I'd like to think that I'm right in thinking that you'll enjoy it once you get it in your hands, but I don't want anticipation to get muddled with preconceptions from dribbled out information. Patience is a virtue. (Not in the book, sadly.)
Silver Crusade
1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh, and also wanted to say:

I really, really love that celestial vipers and octopi are on the back cover's list. :)
Dark Archive
2 people marked this as a favorite.

I could see even Cayden Cailean being at least accepting of a virtue of moderation, since he's not the god of drunken date-rape or deadly bar brawls or anything. Being good aligned, even the god of ale might agree that there's a time to cut someone off and take their keys. He's not Dionysus, after all, a god of wine, total loss of control and madness.

It's all about degrees, I'd imagine. Cayden's probably comfortable with a lot less moderation, than, say, Irori, for whom sniffing the cap might constitute immoderate behavior. (Then again, Irori's all about improving oneself. Perhaps requiring an initiate to become intoxicated, and then attempting to complete some physical challenges despite impairment, is every bit as accepted a practice in some monastaries as putting a blindfold on someone and subjecting them to various challenges while so impaired, or making someone practice punches and kicks underwater, to strengthen their muscles, despite Irori also having nothing specifically to do with darkness or the sea.)

I really love that summon list which is granted by the summon good monster feat when you cast Summon Monster. Also all monsters from this list gain the Die Hard feat.

*celestial template

spoiler:

1st
-Dog*
-Dolphin*
-Eagle*
-Fire beetle*
-Pony*
-Viper*
2nd
-Octopus*
-Wolf*
-Faun
-Grig(without fiddle)
-Pseudodragon
3rd
-Blink Dog
-Shark*
-Foo Dog
-Lantern Archon
-Lyrakien Azata
-Silvanshee, Agathion
4th
-Dire Wolf*
-Giant Eagle*
-Pegasus*
-Faerie Dragon
-Foo Lion
-Hound Archon
-Pixie
5th
-Bralani Azata
-Orca*
-Djinni
-Unicorn
-Vulpinal Agathion
6th
-Giant Octopus*
-Kirin
-Legion Archon
-Lilind Azata
-Wood Giant
7th
-Dire Shark*
-Roc*
-Movanic Deva
-Shedu
-Shield Archon
-Treant
-Young Bronze Dragon
8th
-Cloud Giant
-Dragon Horse
-Lammasu
-Monadic Deva
-Young Gold Dragon
9th
-Astral Deva
-Couatl
-Ghaele Azata
-Leonal Agathion
-Storm Giant
-Trumpet Archon

Shadow Lodge
John Kretzer wrote:
Having read the book. . .

That's kind of what I was thinking. A note for Mercy, both Channel Energy and Stabalize can be done at range. I'm not sure what the machanical benefits of this Feat/Trait/Option are, but there are some options for it to work.

I think a lot of the issue might be more hypothetical or moral, like you mentioned with unredeemable threats or enemies that are just to much of a threat to live, (like say a troll that will get back up soon if not killed).
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks to Dragon78 for compiling that list, looks like a great investment for a feat.
Project Manager
John Kretzer wrote:

Having read the book 'Purity' is about not touching unclean things...which seems to translate into not touching evil items or evil creatures. Also eating food that is specialy prepared that strengthen the body and mind.

I really don't see Sarnae going for that much...as it is kinda hard to redeem evil if it is beneath you to touch it. Also beer does not strengthen the mind or body...it is a poison...so I don't really see Cayden Cailean going for that either.

...

Mercy: You must always accept a enemies surrender and must do your best to stablize them at the end of the battle. Also never bring undue suffering to the innocents.

I actualy see this as a problem for Sarenae whorshippers...which don't have any mercy for the 'unredeemable' evil.

The creed and the virtue are not the same thing. The virtue is a concept, the creed is a code of behavior that a mortal can adopt to devote themselves to the virtue. (So multiple creeds may conflict, which is not the same as the virtues conflicting.)

To take purity as an example, someone devoted to ideals of redemption might interpret purity as not being swayed from one's ideals by the fallen creatures one deals with. The ends never justify the means, and so on. It's not that you get "dirty" from touching something evil, it's that you get dirty from allowing it to change you rather than you changing it. They probably wouldn't follow the creed of purity, however.

Similarly, mercy as a virtue doesn't seem in conflict with swift justice for the irredeemable to me. If something is irredeemably evil, and you're good, you may see yourself as having a responsibility to destroy it so it can't hurt people, but you can give it a swift end that doesn't cause undue suffering and see that as mercy. (Given that some philosophies believe that being evil is itself a form of suffering, they might see it as the same sort of mercy as delivering a swift death to someone fatally wounded instead of letting them suffer a long, drawn-out death.)

As far as beer not strengthening the mind and the body, may want to check your history and your science on that one. :-) The Egyptians considered it a staple food, and like many forms of alcohol, moderate consumption is correlated with lower risk of strokes, heart disease, and cancer.

So while you can make an argument that it nets out as neutral at best, a "poison," it isn't. :-)
Mikaze wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Very odd that they both chose those as virtues, and went away from the 7 Heavenly virtues when they have the 7 Deadly sins so ingrained in the game.

One way to look at it is that the Seven Heavenly Virtues are exactly that: being Heavenly. Meanwhile the virtues in Champion's centerfold are those shared across all three of the Good planes.

Which then raises the question of what the virtues of Nirvana and Elysium are. :)

Lilith wrote:


<3 Old-Mage Jatembe.
We really need to get that full artwork of him someday. The one that was cropped to a portrait for Inner Sea Magic. :)

I really liked it. He looks like Danny Glover in that picture.

So are there any Archytypes in this one ?

Anything for the Magus ?
Shadow Lodge

Actually Jessica, that is not right. There are possibly health benefits from drinking alcohol, extemely moderately, but they are much less than the risks fo drinking alcohol at all. There is evience that it might have minor aid to the heart and related systems, it is usually more wine than beer, and like I said it actually does cause more damage to the body and mind than the potentual (evidence is very much inconclusive) benefits to the very same organs and conditions you mentioned, but others beyond that. It also depletes your water intaken, and bonds with it, (a great deal of the reason there is the illusion that women resist becoming drunk more than men), and the way it interacts with the liver and other organs it passes through can prevent other nutrients and mediations from being absorbed properly, which is why so many list alcohol consumption as a contraindication.
Project Manager
1 person marked this as a favorite.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Actually Jessica, that is not right. There are possibly health benefits from drinking alcohol, extemely moderately, but they are much less than the risks fo drinking alcohol at all. There is evience that it might have minor aid to the heart and related systems, it is usually more wine than beer, and like I said it actually does cause more damage to the body and mind than the potentual (evidence is very much inconclusive) benefits to the very same organs and conditions you mentioned, but others beyond that. It also depletes your water intaken, and bonds with it, (a great deal of the reason there is the illusion that women resist becoming drunk more than men), and the way it interacts with the liver and other organs it passes through can prevent other nutrients and mediations from being absorbed properly, which is why so many list alcohol consumption as a contraindication.

I'm pretty sure for every study you can find showing that drinking beer in moderation is harmful to healthy individuals, I can find one that says the opposite. :-)

Contributor

I received my copy today. Nice job by the other writers, Daigle, and the editors!Very useful stuff.

I hope this one sells well enough that we get to see a Champions of Balance :D

I can't wait to get this next week :)
Sovereign Court
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Actually Jessica, that is not right. There are possibly health benefits from drinking alcohol, extemely moderately, but they are much less than the risks fo drinking alcohol at all. There is evience that it might have minor aid to the heart and related systems, it is usually more wine than beer, and like I said it actually does cause more damage to the body and mind than the potentual (evidence is very much inconclusive) benefits to the very same organs and conditions you mentioned, but others beyond that. It also depletes your water intake, and bonds with it, (a great deal of the reason there is the illusion that women resist becoming drunk more than men), and the way it interacts with the liver and other organs it passes through can prevent other nutrients and mediations from being absorbed properly, which is why so many list alcohol consumption as a contraindication.

Urban myth.

Of course, drinking neat alcohol does all kinds of horrible things to you. However, drinking beer or wine does not deplete your water intake, mainly because those things contain so much more water than alcohol.

However, the real point about the creeds is that nobody will ever take them because they are such, such weak sauce.

The only disappointment in the book.
Jessica Price wrote:


The creed and the virtue are not the same thing. The virtue is a concept, the creed is a code of behavior that a mortal can adopt to devote themselves to the virtue. (So multiple creeds may conflict, which is not the same as the virtues conflicting.)

To take purity as an example, someone devoted to ideals of redemption might interpret purity as not being swayed from one's ideals by the fallen creatures one deals with. The ends never justify the means, and so on. It's not that you get "dirty" from touching something evil, it's that you get dirty from allowing it to change you rather than you changing it. They probably wouldn't follow the creed of purity, however.

I am reading it as written. Touching a evil creature is considered a viloation of the virture. It does not saying anything about pure thoughts or the dirty is about being changed by the evil.

Jessica Price wrote:
Similarly, mercy as a virtue doesn't seem in conflict with swift justice for the irredeemable to me. If something is irredeemably evil, and you're good, you may see yourself as having a responsibility to destroy it so it can't hurt people, but you can give it a swift end that doesn't cause undue suffering and see that as mercy. (Given that some philosophies believe that being evil is itself a form of suffering, they might see it as the same sort of mercy as delivering a swift death to someone fatally wounded instead of letting them suffer a long, drawn-out death.)

So how do you know if a creature is irredeemable? Sure some such as undead, evil outsiders, and some mortal races are pretty clear. But what about that human cultist? Or that human thief?

Jessica Price wrote:

As far as beer not strengthening the mind and the body, may want to check your history and your science on that one. :-) The Egyptians considered it a staple food, and like many forms of alcohol, moderate consumption is correlated with lower risk of strokes, heart disease, and cancer.

So while you can make an argument that it nets out as neutral at best, a "poison," it isn't. :-)

Ah yes the Eguptians fed beer to the slave class because it gaved them nutrients (being called liquid bread) and it kept them tractable...or easily controled. While you may argue(and you are correct I believe) that beer or any acholic substances can be healthy in moderation...I really doubt it improves the mind. As alcohol kills brain cells.

Now as I said before I like the virtures. I just think they actualy don't work well with every deity or alignment. But to me that is a good thing....they should not. I also think there should be more of them...also more sins then just seven of them.

Also I am a very open minded person so it not like I deny the existence of a Sarenae follower having the Purity. Other might see it differently and see it in a way that I don't. So as a GM I am not going to rule it out for a player...or be a stickler for direct interpertations. I have no problems with going with how that player's interperts things...as long as she/he does not break the stated code. A example sure I can see a swift death can be mercifyul in certain contexts...but if a player uses that as a excuse to continuely break her/his Merciful virture...that it is somebody just gaming the system.

I do see these virtures causeing the same problems as Paladins in certain groups though.
Project Manager
John Kretzer wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:


The creed and the virtue are not the same thing. The virtue is a concept, the creed is a code of behavior that a mortal can adopt to devote themselves to the virtue. (So multiple creeds may conflict, which is not the same as the virtues conflicting.)

To take purity as an example, someone devoted to ideals of redemption might interpret purity as not being swayed from one's ideals by the fallen creatures one deals with. The ends never justify the means, and so on. It's not that you get "dirty" from touching something evil, it's that you get dirty from allowing it to change you rather than you changing it. They probably wouldn't follow the creed of purity, however.

I am reading it as written. Touching a evil creature is considered a viloation of the virture. It does not saying anything about pure thoughts or the dirty is about being changed by the evil.

Yes, in bold, right before the text you're referencing, it says "Creed:" -- touching an evil creature is a violation of the creed.

To use a real-world example: various Christian sects have long seen modesty/temperance as a virtue. They attempt to practice self-control and prudence in their lifestyles. Some members of the faith (generally monks or priests), have chosen to follow an entire lifestyle based around it, taking vows of poverty. Do you have to eschew all worldly possessions to live a virtuous life? No, but some people choose to incorporate it into their practices in ways that involve an intense interpretation of the virtue that permeates every aspect of their life. Or, for example, modesty in dress. Devout Catholic women may dress modestly (longer skirts, higher necklines), but it is a step beyond that to become a nun and dress in a habit.

Or, take the nazirite. The Bible instructs believers not to make themselves bald or shave off their beards. The nazirites adopted a stricter code of behavior that involved never cutting their hair at all.

There's a difference between considering something a virtue, and adopting a strict code of behavior or lifestyle to fully devote oneself to the virtue.

John Kretzer wrote:
So how do you know if a creature is irredeemable? Sure some such as undead, evil outsiders, and some mortal races are pretty clear. But what about that human cultist? Or that human thief?

Are you asking what I personally think? Because I would say as far as Pathfinder goes, those distinctions would be up to the individual with the guidance of their clergy and deity.

John Kretzer wrote:
Ah yes the Eguptians fed beer to the slave class because it gaved them nutrients (being called liquid bread) and it kept them tractable...or easily controled. While you may argue(and you are correct I believe) that beer or any acholic substances can be healthy in moderation...I really doubt it improves the mind. As alcohol kills brain cells.

I doubt anyone's arguing that it improves the mind. But the idea that alcohol kills brain cells is a myth. (See, for example: http://lifehacker.com/5867049/nine-stubborn-brain-myths-that-just-wont-die- debunked-by-science) It temporarily impairs brain functions, and in mass quantities may permanently damage the way your synapses function.

I know roles have had a somewhat mixed reaction, but they have been one of my favourite features of the "new" player companions. Does the lack of them in this book signify their disappearance from the line or just that they didn't fit so well with this topic?
Paizo Employee Developer
Steve Geddes wrote:
I know roles have had a somewhat mixed reaction, but they have been one of my favourite features of the "new" player companions. Does the lack of them in this book signify their disappearance from the line or just that they didn't fit so well with this topic?

The latter. Adding roles would have taken away some of the rules elements presented here. They just weren't a great fit for this one, but their absence here isn't any indicator that they are going away.

Shadow Lodge
Jessica Price wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Actually Jessica, that is not right. There are possibly health benefits from drinking alcohol, extemely moderately, but they are much less than the risks fo drinking alcohol at all. There is evience that it might have minor aid to the heart and related systems, it is usually more wine than beer, and like I said it actually does cause more damage to the body and mind than the potentual (evidence is very much inconclusive) benefits to the very same organs and conditions you mentioned, but others beyond that. It also depletes your water intaken, and bonds with it, (a great deal of the reason there is the illusion that women resist becoming drunk more than men), and the way it interacts with the liver and other organs it passes through can prevent other nutrients and mediations from being absorbed properly, which is why so many list alcohol consumption as a contraindication.
I'm pretty sure for every study you can find showing that drinking beer in moderation is harmful to healthy individuals, I can find one that says the opposite. :-)

Well, this is another topic, but I was saying this as a medical professional. I'm not against drinking, and do myself drink, but the truth of the matter is that the minor benfits that may or may not be linked with moderate (usually meaning 1 glass a week to 1 a day) drinking are undercut by the other definetly linked harms it does, particularly over time.

Eh, we're all worm food anyways. May as well drink up.
Silver Crusade

Such is the ways of the Palid Princess. Begone, fowl cultist.

:)
Adam Daigle wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I know roles have had a somewhat mixed reaction, but they have been one of my favourite features of the "new" player companions. Does the lack of them in this book signify their disappearance from the line or just that they didn't fit so well with this topic?
The latter. Adding roles would have taken away some of the rules elements presented here. They just weren't a great fit for this one, but their absence here isn't any indicator that they are going away.

I'm glad to hear that, Adam. Thanks.

Some of us get somewhat baffled by all those rules and options. :p
Project Manager
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
I'm pretty sure for every study you can find showing that drinking beer in moderation is harmful to healthy individuals, I can find one that says the opposite. :-)
Well, this is another topic, but I was saying this as a medical professional. I'm not against drinking, and do myself drink, but the truth of the matter is that the minor benfits that may or may not be linked with moderate (usually meaning 1 glass a week to 1 a day) drinking are undercut by the other definetly linked harms it does, particularly over time.

So are the people claiming there are no negative effects to moderate alcohol consumption. Which was the point of my quote above: presenting the idea that moderate alcohol consumption has harmful effects as a fact upon which there is some sort of broad consensus is a misrepresentation.

But in any case, long-term negative effects of moderate alcohol usage do not exist mechanically or flavor-text-wise in Pathfinder, nor is there evidence of such a belief on Golarion. The (objective) alignment system identifies a god of wine and ale as unambiguously good. Therefore the idea that moderate consumption of alcohol somehow conflicts with the ideal of purity is, at best, difficult to support.
Jessica Price wrote:

Yes, in bold, right before the text you're referencing, it says "Creed:" -- touching an evil creature is a violation of the creed.

To use a real-world example: various Christian sects have long seen modesty/temperance as a virtue. They attempt to practice self-control and prudence in their lifestyles. Some members of the faith (generally monks or priests), have chosen to follow an entire lifestyle based around it, taking vows of poverty. Do you have to eschew all worldly possessions to live a virtuous life? No, but some people choose to incorporate it into their practices in ways that involve an intense interpretation of the virtue that permeates every aspect of their life. Or, for example, modesty in dress. Devout Catholic women may dress modestly (longer skirts, higher necklines), but it is a step beyond that to become a nun and dress in a habit.

Or, take the nazirite. The Bible instructs believers not to make themselves bald or shave off their beards. The nazirites adopted a stricter code of behavior that involved never cutting their hair at all.

There's a difference between considering something a virtue, and adopting a strict code of behavior or lifestyle to fully devote oneself to the virtue.

Yes I understand that...and I see some of those creeds run counter to certain of Golarion's religous beliefs to the point that I would find it impossible to uphold the tenets of the faith and follow the creed. Does not mean other people would not be able to play it. It would create great RPing even.

Personaly though I would have much rather seen Compassion instead of Purity...as I think that better reflects the essence of good. Purity has been bandied about by too many evil people as a excuse to commit great atrocities for my taste to consider it a virture.

Yeah, I honestly can't see any of the Good religions we've been shown as espousing that brand of Purity. Some of the N and LN churches and philosophies, maybe (sects of Irori and Kalistrade).

...also, refraining from physical contact with evil creatures is going to be incredibly difficult for an adventurer. ^.^

I am enjoying the discussion, even some of the off topic stuff. I can hardly wait to get the book sometime this week.
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