Perhaps just +2 Str with no other bonus or penalty? They inherit their orcish power, but their human blood evens out their other characteristics.
Yes, please. This is the best idea so far.
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Perhaps just +2 Str with no other bonus or penalty? They inherit their orcish power, but their human blood evens out their other characteristics.Yes, please. This is the best idea so far.
Not to self-congratulate, but I just realized another reason that this works well for PRPG.
It is much easier to calculate eliminating the -2 Cha from 3.5 than it is to ADD +2 Wis.
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Perhaps just +2 Str with no other bonus or penalty? They inherit their orcish power, but their human blood evens out their other characteristics.Yes, please. This is the best idea so far.
The problem with this though is every other race has an option to go physical OR spell casting at a bonus. This would be short changing that option for half orcs.
The problem with this though is every other race has an option to go physical OR spell casting at a bonus. This would be short changing that option for half orcs.
Half-orcs broke the standard pattern in 3rd, too. Every other race got +2,-2, except humans and half elves. Then half-orcs come along with +2,-2,-2.
So I'm okay with them being an outlier again.
I'm thinking of a combo of what other people have said:
How about
+2 to any physical stat
Ranger and Barbarian as favored classes
The other stuff could probably stay the same.
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Perhaps just +2 Str with no other bonus or penalty? They inherit their orcish power, but their human blood evens out their other characteristics.Yes, please. This is the best idea so far.The problem with this though is every other race has an option to go physical OR spell casting at a bonus. This would be short changing that option for half orcs.
I would rather have them break the pattern than have an arbitrary mental stat bonus that some people have a problem justifying. If we give them +2 Str, + Any, -2 Cha they become more powerful than humans or half-elves. It seems incongruous to allow a half-orc with +2 Int when his parentage has penalties to most mental stats.
Compared to PRPG, the +2 Str Only option allows them to be decent at any spellcasting class, rather than exceptional at divine, bad at wizardry (or decent at divine/wizardry, bad at sorcerery in 3.5).
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The problem with this though is every other race has an option to go physical OR spell casting at a bonus. This would be short changing that option for half orcs.
Half-orcs broke the standard pattern in 3rd, too. Every other race got +2,-2, except humans and half elves. Then half-orcs come along with +2,-2,-2.
So I'm okay with them being an outlier again.
They COULD do that I'm sure, but why not just let them have the same as everyone else? Why make them different? Keep every race balanced in stats ... minus the humans and half-elves >_>
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A few thoughts on this:
I don't like the idea of having them be more like the adaptable half-elves.
The fluff for half-elves says they have trouble adjusting to either society. The half orcs are outcasts looked upon with fear, hatred and pity. Very different flavor.
How about
+2 strength, -2 int (or charisma if that's prefered), +2 to any other stat apart from strength (but including the -2 stat if you want to wipe it out).
As mentioned above, this would create +2 str/+2 con / -2 int barbarians galor, but it would also allow players to take the +2 in charisma to make a paladin or wisdom to make a cleric etc.
To balance this i'd be ok if the orc only had the barbarian as a favored class (something like - due to their often brutal upbringing, opportunities for half orcs are limited)
And, I really like the idea of keen senses - smell + hearing.
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I'm thinking of a combo of what other people have said:
How about
+2 to any physical stat
Ranger and Barbarian as favored classes
The other stuff could probably stay the same.
I could also see that working, except now we are dealing with very special rules for half-orc ability scores (+2 in this, not in that).
This is the most interesting idea I have heard yet. To be honest, we went back and forth on the half-orc bonuses for a while before settling on the current mix. I am not sure any other mental stat bump for half-orcs works at all (Int and Cha) as both are decidedly "un-orcish" in many regards.
Honestly, I love the +2 WIS adjustment. Nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that this ends up giving the Half-Orc a +1 on Will, Survival, Handle Animal and Perception skill etc. Most people are turned off by the term "wisdom" because most people (me included) do not envision the Half-Orc as a wise character.
Much confusion comes from the fact that the ability called WISDOM has not much to do with a character's wisdom.
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that a dinosaur has a WIS of 15. My elven bard character didn't have a wisdom of 15, hell, he barely reached 10! Should that mean that my bard will loose a fortune-cookie writing contest to a T-Rex? I hope not... But I will accept that the T-Rex can read its opponent's body language much better than my bard, will not be as easily fooled and has a much more stubborn personality (don't tell my bard though, it might hurt his ego...)
I think that if the Half-Orc is not granted a +2 WIS, he should benefit from some racial bonuses to compensate. I liked the fact that the Half-Orc had potential in something else than barbarism...
I approve of the new Half-Orc 100%. I always thought that Half-Orcs were somewhat dull and one-dimensional in 3.5, but this combination of favored classes and stat adjustments accentuates both their cunning disposition and their connection to the natural world. Keith Baker did an excellent job of handling Half-Orcs in Eberron - I'm glad that the Pathfinder team has decided to continue developing the race along those lines.
Also, full blooded orcs have a wisdom penalty.
Of course half-elves can get +2 con of they want, but that's not hard-wired in.
Well, I suppose you could have half-elves get +2 to any mental stat instead of the full blown +2 to any stat. That prevents a half-elf from taking +2 Con when his elf parent had -2 Con.I could also see that working, except now we are dealing with very special rules for half-orc ability scores (+2 in this, not in that).+2 to any physical stat
Ranger and Barbarian as favored classes
The other stuff could probably stay the same.
I actually like this idea, since it makes the hybrid races almost as flexible as humans, but not quite, and in different ways.
Mind you, I don't have a big problem with the Wis bonus either...
-Steve
Well, I suppose you could have half-elves get +2 to any mental stat instead of the full blown +2 to any stat. That prevents a half-elf from taking +2 Con when his elf parent had -2 Con.
It would also prevent him from taking a +2 in DEX, which his elf parent excels...
I believe than logically, a Half-Orc should be a dull race. However, its not fun to play a dull character. Actually, I should say that its not fun not to have the opportunity not to play the dull stereotype without being penalized for your daring initiative. The recent version allowed that, and I thought it was brilliant!
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How about this for Half-Orcs:
+2 any stat.
-2 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Knowledge checks.
Other PRPG racial abilities.
This covers a few things:
Makes them parallel humans and half-elves. Gives them penalties to the things that orcs and half-orcs are typically not inclined to pursue (even if the character has a bonus in the relevant ability score).
This is just a suggestion for Jason. My actual preference would still be:
+2 to Str.
-2 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Knowledge checks.
Other PRPG racial abilities.
I should also mention that certain races are actually not good at things (for example, dwarves make bad sorcerers with -2 Cha). So arguing that not having a +2 mental stat makes orcs bad choices for magic users is only valid from the perspective that they aren't GOOD at anything (whereas dwarves are good, but only at divine magic - in other words they are more limited for a player wanting a sorcerer than my proposed half-orc).
EDIT: We should also look at their role. Half-orcs used to stand alone as a prime choice for warriors (with humans maybe overtaking them a little). I think that flavor should be retained in PRPG - so to paraphrase Ross, let's have half-orcs break the mold a bit. After all, there are already 2 races with +2 to any stat, which I think is enough. That breaks the mold in a way as well.
This is the most interesting idea I have heard yet. To be honest, we went back and forth on the half-orc bonuses for a while before settling on the current mix. I am not sure any other mental stat bump for half-orcs works at all (Int and Cha) as both are decidedly "un-orcish" in many regards.Honestly, I love the +2 WIS adjustment. Nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that this ends up giving the Half-Orc a +1 on Will, Survival, Handle Animal and Perception skill etc. Most people are turned off by the term "wisdom" because most people (me included) do not envision the Half-Orc as a wise character.
I'm kind of on the fence about the Wisdom bonus but I much prefer this to the floating +2 which has been suggested. As you mention, wisdom is often more a reflection of intuition and stuborness than actual mental capacity. The wisdom bonus also helps them with their favored class (which incidentally I love the druid with the half orc).
Oh (sorry to rear my ugly head again so soon after that post), I just thought of an addendum...<snipped>
I totally agree with Kayn's point of view.
I think half-orcs should be handled in much the same way half-elves are. Give them a +2 to any one stat, darkvision, affinity for orc-ish weapons, and call it good.
CJ
This is the most interesting idea I have heard yet. To be honest, we went back and forth on the half-orc bonuses for a while before settling on the current mix. I am not sure any other mental stat bump for half-orcs works at all (Int and Cha) as both are decidedly "un-orcish" in many regards.
As for the druid favored class, this was done primarily for a "shamanistic" feel. Clerics are far too organized, in general, whereas druids seem like a pretty good fit (calling on the elements, using feral animals, shapeshifting).
These things said, of course, I am open to discussion. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Actually, this sounds like a pretty good idea. Giving half-orcs a +2 to any stat kind of ties them into the half-race category of getting a choice of stat. Of course, this could easily lead to a half-elf with a strength bonus, and a half-orc with a charisma bonus...but I still find that being a possibility far less disruptive than a wisdom bonus being a certainty. ;) Again, I certainly agree that Int and Cha are even less orcish than wisdom, but wisdom still seems pretty unorcish. I mean, I think one of the defining features of orcs is that they are all brawn with no brain. In fact, in my mind, that is what an orc is: they are a representation of the mindless and savage side of the PC races. So it makes giving them balanced stats hard.
As for druid, I can agree completely with the shamanistic feel. But druids aren't shamans. Both are often portrayed as quite naturalistic, but for different reasons. Shamans are, generally, primitive and use nature because they either can't or won't use refined products. Druids actively seek to be in harmony with nature and protect it. Either way, if I recall, in 1st edition, orcs were affined with the assassin class. So maybe making rogue a favored class might work better? After all, half-orcs have many of the same tendencies as orcs, but aren't as big and strong, and so maybe sneaking around, stealing, and stabbing others in the back would be a more natural path for them?
Kayn
I mean, I think one of the defining features of orcs is that they are all brawn with no brain. In fact, in my mind, that is what an orc is: they are a representation of the mindless and savage side of the PC races.
While I agree with your statement, I do not see wisdom as "brains". On the contrary, the statistics of savage animals and feral monsters usually include above-average wisdom scores.
Oh (sorry to rear my ugly head again so soon after that post), I just thought of an addendum...<snipped>
I totally agree with Kayn's point of view.
I think half-orcs should be handled in much the same way half-elves are. Give them a +2 to any one stat, darkvision, affinity for orc-ish weapons, and call it good.
CJ
This is the most interesting idea I have heard yet. To be honest, we went back and forth on the half-orc bonuses for a while before settling on the current mix. I am not sure any other mental stat bump for half-orcs works at all (Int and Cha) as both are decidedly "un-orcish" in many regards.
As for the druid favored class, this was done primarily for a "shamanistic" feel. Clerics are far too organized, in general, whereas druids seem like a pretty good fit (calling on the elements, using feral animals, shapeshifting).
These things said, of course, I am open to discussion. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yes please, a bonus to one ability like that of the humans and the half-elves would be superiour to the current situation, which feels somewhat off (though I will reiterate that it's better than any other mental stat bonus for the half-orc). It's not too bad if it stays as it is, but the aforementioned change would be preferable to the status quo.
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I think a floating +2 to any stat diverges too much from the half-orc role. You'd have +2 Int half-orc wizards, +2 Cha half-orc bards, and so on.
The +2 to Wisdom seems fine to me. It aids in Perception checks, and Survival -- very barbarian-ish. As a side effect it does make half-orcs very good druids, but that's a good feature.
Keeping the -2 Int rather than chanigng it to -2 Cha differentiates them from Dwarves as a player option, and allows a player (should they choose) to play a big dumb fighter.
You know, I think the real crux of the debate is that wisdom as a stat has very little to do with the word "wisdom". That being the case, it's pretty near impossible to discuss things in a manner which can please everyone. Over the years, wisdom has slowly warped farther and farther away from wisdom until it is now to the point where it makes sense to many that orcs and animals should have it at high levels. But rather than continue to warp the word more and more, I still think it would be better to not continue that trend and, if possible, slowly reverse it over the coming years. Just my thoughts.
Kayn
I think a floating +2 to any stat diverges too much from the half-orc role. You'd have +2 Int half-orc wizards, +2 Cha half-orc bards, and so on.
The +2 to Wisdom seems fine to me. It aids in Perception checks, and Survival -- very barbarian-ish. As a side effect it does make half-orcs very good druids, but that's a good feature.
Keeping the -2 Int rather than chanigng it to -2 Cha differentiates them from Dwarves as a player option, and allows a player (should they choose) to play a big dumb fighter.
Agreed!
when I think of human and Half-elves, versatility and adaptability are the first words that spring to my mind. A flexible character creation reflect very well these qualities.While I don't see the same flexibility being applied to Half-Orc as a bad design option per say, it makes Human and Half-Elves less unique (and they are by default already suffering from a lack of unity).
To Jason, Eric and the rest of the pathfinder R&D team;
Ultimately, you guys at Paizo are in control of what role and niche (if any) the Half-Orc should take. I have my own idea, but this may be the subject of another thread. A lot of design decisions will justify themselves with this choice. Usually, I am happy to go with any rule when designers provide a description that justify their choice.
If I may add one thing to keep in mind however; unlike with its Half-Elf cousin, a player choosing the Half-Orc cannot choose the true breed over the half breed (don't tell half-orcs and half-elves I just called them that!). A player character cannot go full orc, so Half-Orcs are as savage and feral as core races can get...
By the way, thank you Jason and Eric for your implication in this thread! Its a real treat to us!
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Agreed!
when I think of human and Half-elves, versatility and adaptability are the first words that spring to my mind. A flexible character creation reflect very well these qualities.While I don't see the same flexibility being applied to Half-Orc as a bad design option per say, it makes Human and Half-Elves less unique (and they are by default already suffering from a lack of unity).
*snip*
A player character cannot go full orc
Nicely said, please don't turn half-orcs into mean, green half-elves.
and, of course...
you never go full orc.
Please leave the Half orc as is the wisdom increase is not book learning it is more common sense and intuition than anything else.
I vote leaving them with +2 wisdom and +2 str. I do not understand why everyone wants to pick on the orc.
Please leave the Half orc as is the wisdom increase is not book learning it is more common sense and intuition than anything else.
I vote leaving them with +2 wisdom and +2 str. I do not understand why everyone wants to pick on the orc.
To be honest with you, I actually like the new iteration on Half-orcs. Yes, they're a human crossbreed, but that doesn't mean that the human side has to win out. They just take more after their orc heritage. If I were to add or change anything, I'd do two things. I'd make Orc Ferocity so that you could act as normal for one more turn (no disabled state), and I'd add a +2 bonus to Intimidate and Survival. There you go! Perfectly workable race.
-Steve
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In addition to the idea of a +2 bonus to any stat (or maybe any physical stat), I want to reiterate my suggestion that half-orcs also get any favored class.
In this thread alone, we've already seen arguments for half-orcs favoring barbarian, cleric, druid, ranger, and rogue. And fighter isn't a stretch. So there are already arguments for half-orcs favoring more than half of the core base classes. May as well go all in and let them pick any class.
Besides, what are orcs supposed to be? Tough. And what is one of the benefits of a favored class? Extra hit points. Why not let a half-orc wizard favor the wizard class? He shouldn't have less hit points than a human wizard who favors wizard, should he?
That I can get behind as showcasing their human heritage. Might be a bit much when you factor in +2 to any stat, so in such a case the +2 to any physical stat rule might be better (but still clunky).
Many people are approaching this from the perspective of a player, and how a half-orc plays. But we have to remember the DMs and their half-orc NPCs. Any help we get is good.
Perhaps a +2 to either Con or Str (but not all physical abilities - Orcs don't seem particularly dexterous). In order not to pidgeonhole them entirely into the physical, we could give them another bonus to compensate.
Example bonus in lieu of +2 Wisdom:
Power of Blood: Half-Orcs can self-inflict wounds to increase caster level. If this is too broad, we could restrict this to spell classes appropriate to the Orc flavor-wise. This could be pretty flavorful - imagine an orc drawing his blood and spraying it on the enemy to render him more vulnerable to his subsequent spell...
Just what magnitude wound would need to be self-inflicted would depend on the requirements of balance. I can imagine, for example, 1d4 hit points worth of damage to increase caster level by one.
Here's the biggest problem with half-orc WIS bonus.
Orc:
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6
QED.
If we're going to "re-imagine" orcs and half-orcs for Pathfinder/Golarion that's fine. But historically, orcs and to a lesser extent half-orcs have been disordered beasts. Even less "wise" than they are classically dumb.
In AD&D 1e: +1 STR, +1 CON, -2 CHA. STR 6-18, Int 3-17, Wis 3-14, Dex 3-17, Con 13-19, Cha 3-12.
I think they should get STR and CON bonuses. Is this a lot of "combat bonus?" Yes. But they get crap racials otherwise, so that's OK. Watered down ferocity and "orc blood?" Bah. And that's their deal! They're the brutes!
Aside: It's what makes plotlines about anti-half-orc racism interesting. They are really dumber and more brutish on average than everyone else. So does that justify it?
(As an aside, the WotC 4e-ers do have a point when they talk about artificial parallelism - I think that "every race needs one physical and one mental bonus" is an example of that.)
Discussing half-orcs does seem to draw in a half-elf discussion, too. I was thinking, what if you gave one set of choices for ability bonuses and special abilities depending on if the PC chose to favor his human or non-human parent? Or would this just complicate the picture? It probably would make back compatibility a bit tougher.
Anyhow, I do like the changes so far even if they remain as they are. I'm sure you'll decide something appropriate after testing and feedback.
Here's the biggest problem with half-orc WIS bonus.
Orc:
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6QED.
It's more than possible that these scores represent the persistant belief by the designers that Str bonuses required extreme penalties in other areas. As a PC race, Orcs get +4 str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, and -2 Cha. Seems to me they were just maintaining that paradigm.
-Steve
I wanted to add onto Subversive's point, that Pathfinder's change OF NOT INCLUDING DAMAGE BONUSES to bonus crit damage is a significant reduction in Strength's strength, so to speak. Given that, I think taking a 2nd look at these type of assumptions is quite warranted.
As well, I don't think having a WIS bonus on top of an INT penalty would effect the prejudices of 'civilized' races much at all.
Contributor
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I've been in favour of the +2 Wisdom bonus since it first appeared in the Alpha. For a number of reasons.
#1 is basically the same as many others have pointed out; Wisdom score is not really wisdom, it's perception.
#2 is that I never liked that half-orcs were double penalized. I understand why they were, but I'd rather see the 6 stats be made more equal in value than have to fiddle with every race that gets a bonus to Strength.
#3 is the one that no one has brought up that I've noticed. Way back in 1E, Half-orcs were one of the only non-human races that could be clerics and could multiclass as clerics, and cleric was one of only a few classes half-orcs could be. While I like the druid flavour (mostly because of Eberron) I LIKE that half-orcs are going back to their original roots of being better clerics than other races.
As a side note, I also prefer that half-orcs get penalized on intelligence instead of Charisma, if only so they stop being hosed on intimidate.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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A big consideration for me, is that this is not the half-orc you're used to, either. These are Golarion half-orcs. Maybe they tend toward a religious view, maybe they are natural hunters and scouts. Especially in human lands, where they tend to be moved to the outskirts of society. The ones without wits likelt don't survive long.
Then there's the idea that they are not orcs, they are half-orcs. They lack opportunity and curiosity like orcs, but they have expanded thinking and problem-solving powers like some of their 'better-halves'.
I strongly support the +2 Wisdom bonus, although I do think it's kind of funny that the issue garnered sooo many posts. Now, all you poeple go onto another thread and shell the abjurer delfection bonus and beg for a better specialist ability. : }
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Here's the biggest problem with half-orc WIS bonus.
Orc:
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6QED.
If we're going to "re-imagine" orcs and half-orcs for Pathfinder/Golarion that's fine. But historically, orcs and to a lesser extent half-orcs have been disordered beasts. Even less "wise" than they are classically dumb.
And yet that doesn't make much sense. Orcs have been portrayed as primal barbaric sorts all throughout 3rd edition. Something as 'savage' as a grizzly bear has *more* Wisdom than the average civilized human, and some of the predators, such as eagles, have +4 Wisdom over a human barkeep!
Wisdom doesn't represent sages. That's book-learnin,' which is intelligence. Wisdom is focused on skills related to Survival and Senses, and is associated with Will saves, none of these traits for which Orcs, as presented in 3.0 or 3.5, are presented as being *worse than humans.*
The floating +2 is a perk of being a human, IMO, and giving a Half-Orc a potential +2 Intelligence doesn't really work for me. I prefer giving them the Strength and Wisdom bonus, and Intelligence penalty.
As for Half-Orcs being wiser than full blooded Orcs, even if the racial penalty for Orcish wisdom is retained, the Half-Orc could, like the Liger, be a beneficiary of 'hybrid vigor,' when two species cross and their child is paradoxically larger/stronger/better in some way than either of the parent species.
Perhaps the Orcs terrible temper interferes with the sensory awareness they should possess and just a few drops of human blood are sufficient to 'clear their mind' enough to make better use of their faculties.
I took out the AD&D Player's Handbook and back then Half-orcs could have up to a 17 Intelligence, but Wisdom was capped at 14 and Charisma capped at 12. So the precedent there is for them to be pretty smart, but foolish and gruff/repulsive to others (not their own kind). They got +1 to Strength and Con and -2 to Charisma (the biggest stat hit for anybody. So in today's terms, I would say give them +2 to Strength and Con and -2 to Charisma. Understanding that the Charisma penalty reflects how other races view them - repulsed by them, unable to tkae them serious, bigoted against them, etc. Perhaps some Diplomacy bonus could apply to orc dealings or they could get an intimidate bonus to offset.
I don't envy Jason and crew. I do think Half-orcs, and half-elves for that matter, deserve to be their own race, so I take back my prior suggestion of +2 to one stat like a human. I suggest coming up with something set and that's jsut how they are. Good luck.
I took out the AD&D Player's Handbook and back then Half-orcs could have up to a 17 Intelligence, but Wisdom was capped at 14 and Charisma capped at 12. So the precedent there is for them to be pretty smart, but foolish and gruff/repulsive to others (not their own kind). They got +1 to Strength and Con and -2 to Charisma (the biggest stat hit for anybody. So in today's terms, I would say give them +2 to Strength and Con and -2 to Charisma. Understanding that the Charisma penalty reflects how other races view them - repulsed by them, unable to tkae them serious, bigoted against them, etc. Perhaps some Diplomacy bonus could apply to orc dealings or they could get an intimidate bonus to offset.
I don't envy Jason and crew. I do think Half-orcs, and half-elves for that matter, deserve to be their own race, so I take back my prior suggestion of +2 to one stat like a human. I suggest coming up with something set and that's jsut how they are. Good luck.
I think that wisdom meant something very different back in AD&D then it does in 3.x.
Additionally, Charisma doesn't necessarily represent how someone else sees you. It reflects your sense of self, and your ability to project self-confidence. Frankly, I always felt that will saves should be tied into Charisma rather than wisdom, but I guess that's an artifact of older editions.
If it's changed to +2Str/Con, you're chanding the entire concept of +2 to one physical stat and one mental. Let's give the poor half-orc a break, people. He's already suffering enough.
-Steve
I will again restate that a +2 skill bonus to intimidate and survival (respectively) would balance out the race just about perfectly in my mind.
-Steve
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I would like to point out that the wisdom bonus does not seem particularly appropriate to the Half-Orc. I understand why the race was given this bonus - all races were given boni to one physical and one mental score so that they are not pidgeonholed into a single role (for the half-orc, this tended to be the barbarian...), but nevertheless, it just does not fit the half-orc flavor.
I would disagree here. Wolves and most other hunting animals have this stat at above average because it's essential to tracking and survival. It fits the primal, animalistic part of the half-orc's heritage and does a lot to fix the brutal adjustments they got under 3.5.
I'd like to see half-orc with one of the two ability score adjustments:
1) +2 to str (no other bonuses or penalties)
2) Choice of +2 to str or +2 to con (no other bonuses or penalties)
Add me to group that would like to keep +2 WIS for half-orcs, I thing this just open up class options rather than pigeon holding them to fighting classes. Now all sudden a half-orc cleric of druid seems like a good idea. I may be even tempted to play a monk or even a paladin! About only thing I would change is possible making orc ferocity a bit more useful getting rid of the once day limit would help. I also like Subversive suggestion on +2 skill bonus to intimidate and survival
Here's the biggest problem with half-orc WIS bonus.
Orc:
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6QED.
If we're going to "re-imagine" orcs and half-orcs for Pathfinder/Golarion that's fine. But historically, orcs and to a lesser extent half-orcs have been disordered beasts. Even less "wise" than they are classically dumb.
In AD&D 1e: +1 STR, +1 CON, -2 CHA. STR 6-18, Int 3-17, Wis 3-14, Dex 3-17, Con 13-19, Cha 3-12.
I think they should get STR and CON bonuses. Is this a lot of "combat bonus?" Yes. But they get crap racials otherwise, so that's OK. Watered down ferocity and "orc blood?" Bah. And that's their deal! They're the brutes! <snip>
This is exactly where I'm working from. Orcs have never been portrayed as wise in D&D, nor have they been portrayed as wise in most fiction. But wisdom doesn't mean wisdom. Ok, as silly as that is, I have to say it's often true in D&D. However, even with that being the case, orcs have a low wisdom score and always have. In fact, they've always had a lower wisdom score than intelligence even! So, since intelligence has always been their highest mental stat, it must be the one to get a +2 boost...right? Well, I think most of us agree that that is silly. So why NOT give them +2 STR and CON? Sure, that pushes them down a more fightery combative path...but they're friggin' half orcs! Of course you are welcome to play a half orc wizard or sorcerer or somesuch, but how many folks out there think that those classes should be just as common and likely as half orc fighters and barbarians?
Ernest Mueller also said this: (As an aside, the WotC 4e-ers do have a point when they talk about artificial parallelism - I think that "every race needs one physical and one mental bonus" is an example of that.) And again, I have to agree 100%. This seems like designing for balanced game design rather than evoking a genre and setting.
Ok, but what of the arguments that say these are not orcs, they're HALF-orcs. They have a human side too! Well, that's true. But humans don't usually have a high wisdom either. The average human has a 10 in every stat. Now, the average player will have more, and about 1 in 6 players might take a wisdom bonus, but still, humans are not a particularly wisdom heavy race. It seems that orcs are generally portrayed (and have the stats to back it up) as very, very strong, and also durable. In addition they are a bit stupid, very unwise, and horrible at dealing with others. Now, humans are average at everything. So, the mid point would be half-orcs. That is, they'd be very strong, somewhat durable, a bit slow-witted, unwise, and very bad dealing with others. That sure sounds like a bonus to Str and Con with a Cha penalty to me.
Now, if Paizo wants to change all that and go with the Warcraft-esque "noble savage" orcs or whatnot, then it's no problem. But giving half orcs a bonus to any mental stat is, most certainly, a change from the baseline that currently, and has always, existed with D&D, and most other fantasy in general.
Kayn
Consider the likely underlying reasoning for giving Half-Orcs +2 to Wisdom in the first place: It was almost surely to give them an option not to be pidgeonholed into the warrior role and enable them to take a spellcasting class. After thinking about this matter more, perhaps it may a viable idea to give the Half-Orcs +2 to Strength and +2 to Constitution, while retaining their -2 to Intelligence. After all, Constitution is a universally useful ability score that is also very helpful to spellcasters. At the same time this maintains the Half-Orc flavor.
Note: Druids are fine as the alternate Half-Orc favored class - they are not exactly shamans, but they are the closest thing in the core rules.
To summarize the options so far:
1) +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence
2) +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence
3) +2 to one ability score*
*Possibly restricted to physical stats or just to Strength or Constitution, or even only to Strength + decreased flexibility perhaps compensated for by other benefits
Consider the likely underlying reasoning for giving Half-Orcs +2 to Wisdom in the first place: It was almost surely to give them an option not to be pidgeonholed into the warrior role and enable them to take a spellcasting class. After thinking about this matter more, perhaps it may a viable idea to give the Half-Orcs +2 to Strength and +2 to Constitution, while retaining their -2 to Intelligence. After all, Constitution is a universally useful ability score that is also very helpful to spellcasters. At the same time this maintains the Half-Orc flavor.