I do like to double team Lou with you Rone!!! ;-)
"Yeah, but Nic's the one talking about double teams."
That's only cuz I bring the after-love snacks.
That said, last year at Origins they had a thing set up where you could basically go and fight with foam weapons. Normally I use blunt steel, but I might change my policy for a quick training session with a few pwople if I have time.
I couldn't watch the gladiator fights at GenCon - it angried up the blood.
Dave's inner voice: "You idiot, don't spin around like that! Never turn your back on your enemy! And you - why didn't you hit him when his back was turned?!"
That said, last year at Origins they had a thing set up where you could basically go and fight with foam weapons. Normally I use blunt steel, but I might change my policy for a quick training session with a few pwople if I have time.I couldn't watch the gladiator fights at GenCon - it angried up the blood.
Dave's inner voice: "You idiot, don't spin around like that! Never turn your back on your enemy! And you - why didn't you hit him when his back was turned?!"
Ha! I know!!! The "rules" for boffer make my inner swordsman go CRACK-CRAZY!
Ha! I know!!! The "rules" for boffer make my inner swordsman go CRACK-CRAZY!
You too, hunh ? I only ever boffered ONCE. We were "dueling" and I saw his guard was to high - when he tried a high shoulder hit I ducked under and came back with a falso. He sputtered and shouted "You can't DO that !"
I replied "I just did". I then walked away when he tried to launch into a diatribe.
*sigh*
On another note entirely - it's worth noting that in the REAL world while many weapons CAN bind, many are not designed for it and will thus NOT be able to hold the bind.
Quarterstaffs, though I love them dearly, cannot hold a bind. Axes, unless esoterically designed, cannot hold a bind (nor can they do much of anything interesting except seriously maim or kill people - ever try to do combat choreography with an Axe - ye gods !).
As Nick stated, some weapons can be used to force a blade or other weapon off-line (basically, knock a weapon aside so that it can't score a hit untill it's re-maneuvered into position once more) but a bind presupposes that you can "hold" the weapon in a neutral position indefinitely.
However, we play a game with many fantasy elements and I personally would happily allow ANY weapon to bind - just describing it in adventurous terms.
On another note entirely - it's worth noting that in the REAL world while many weapons CAN bind, many are not designed for it and will thus NOT be able to hold the bind.
Quarterstaffs, though I love them dearly, cannot hold a bind. Axes, unless esoterically designed, cannot hold a bind (nor can they do much of anything interesting except seriously maim or kill people - ever try to do combat choreography with an Axe - ye gods !).
As Nick stated, some weapons can be used to force a blade or other weapon off-line (basically, knock a weapon aside so that it can't score a hit untill it's re-maneuvered into position once more) but a bind presupposes that you can "hold" the weapon in a neutral position indefinitely.
However, we play a game with many fantasy elements and I personally would happily allow ANY weapon to bind - just describing it in adventurous terms.
Well put logo! I am a big fan of cool "cinematic" over-the-topness in D&D battle, so I support your call to let other weapons bind if the DM and players want a rip roaring teeth-gnashing battle royale!...with cheese! :-)
I couldn't watch the gladiator fights at GenCon - it angried up the blood.
Dave's inner voice: "You idiot, don't spin around like that! Never turn your back on your enemy! And you - why didn't you hit him when his back was turned?!"
Wow. Kind of makes you want to wait outside until after the show....
Quarterstaffs, though I love them dearly, cannot hold a bind. Axes, unless esoterically designed, cannot hold a bind (nor can they do much of anything interesting except seriously maim or kill people - ever try to do combat choreography with an Axe - ye gods !).
As Nick pointed out it's not really a bind, it's a grapple.... BUT:
Not only can you hold someone indefinitely with a staff, you can make them dislocate their arm while getting out. I've done it with a short staff, but it can also be done with a long staff and even a sword.
To be fair, I don't know a thing about combat choreography, I learned this in a submission hold seminar for black belts.
Kruel - I'm interested - how were you taught to hold a bind with a staff ? I've never been able to come up with a reliable method as there just isn't anything to "hook on" with, if that makes any sense.
Yes, you can apply direct pressure with the striking ends, or you can use the haft to pin, but this isn't really a bind, it's more of a sustained "push" and even then, anyone who has some training can usually shift to negate.
You've obviously had the advantage of more Eastern training while my training is almost entirely western, and I'll happily concede that eastern martial arts are far more advanced than western !
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Dear Mr. Shackleton,
I enjoyed your article very much.
But for the Feat Defensive Swordplay I suggest to add the +4 bonus also to a binding attack used as counter-attack
I just took a look at that, and I see that I included bind in the feat on the chart but not the description. I'm trying to recall if there was some reason why I pulled bind from that feat, but I think it was left off by accident. I agree that it should apply, in any case.
Good catch!
Bind Bind BIND!!! I really dig this option. I'm running a BUNCH of events at UBcon in Buffalo this weekend and I'll definitely be showcasing stuff from Art of the Duel there!
I'm running a Razor Coast sneak peak adventure there...so excited!
I think that this pdf is a very good match for COTCT.
More specifically for ** spoiler omitted **
True dat! And any character who wants to follow in his footsteps!
Kruel - I'm interested - how were you taught to hold a bind with a staff ? I've never been able to come up with a reliable method as there just isn't anything to "hook on" with, if that makes any sense.
Hey man I posted this under my real name (Karlis Lejnieks) and it is GONE.
First, I have agreed with Nick that this is a grapple and not a bind, although some bo-staff holds produce more or less the same effect that Craig describes in his feat.
Obviously I can't show you, but....
If you have seen arm locks you're just going to have to imagine that this is possible.
Just like a bind you use counter pressure to restrict movement, but it requires you to grapple the arm or the head as well as threading the staff or spear.
The most reliable of these attacks begin with a strike to the arm followed by a thrust behind the head, under the chin, or under the armpit - the holds are different depending on where you are and where you thrust. You close/sidestep outside the disabled arm, depending on how long the staff is, and slide the staff as you step in holding it now only with your reverse hand.
Your forward hand is used to grapple and restrain... now you really need to see this to understand how to create the counter pressure, and a strong, limber person can certainly escape. They will have to drop their weapon to do so, however. Many of these moves end with the opponent on the ground in submission.
Like any submission you have to be almost excessive in how much force you use or they will writhe free, which I guess you know.
Now, to tell you the truth, as cool as it is to study this stuff (short staff, learned from Sensei Masaru Shintani before he died, long staff, Shifu Wang Kai, here in China.), I'd never use it if I was in a fight. I started learning it after working empty hand exclusively for almost 10 years (that's traditional Okinawan karate for you - Wado Ryu). IT's been 23 years now.
Few martial arts schools teach this kind of stuff for any other reason than fending off their feeling of boredom over practicing punches to the head week in and week out for years and even decades. Or for kata. Or to look cool.
I personally advocate repeated and concussive blows to the head in any situation where your life is at risk. Hunt head. It's simple and much more effective. This fancy s#*~ is just that.....
Dude, if you're in a historical fighting society and want to learn this kind of thing, you really should go find a kung fu club or a non-traditional karate organization that is willing to let students take up weapons at low ranks because systematic training will really improve your fighting with all western weapons. Unless you want to use light swords.... go to a fencing club for that.
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I recommend to anyone interested in historical combat to take some kind of mainstream martial art as well. Most medieval western martial arts worked the same way; you start with unarmed combat and then build weapons onto those skills. quite often the weapons were just an extra lever for grappling with, even swords and pole-axes.
Also, while there are differences, many techniques from medieval western unarmed combat are similar or identical to those from eastern martial arts. And since the lineage of instruction has been broken in most western martial arts, it is useful to get training and insight from the east.
Sport fencing is also useful for control and training of many combat skills, but one word of warning. While I have a great deal of respect for the level of athleticism and skill required to be a good sport fencer, most modern fencing is a sport, not a martial art. The key difference is that sport fencing does not usually train any kind of survival instinct. Any martial art teacher will tell you that the most important thing is to walk away alive. In Olympic fencing, the most important thing is to tag your opponent, even if you would not survive the action that led to that tag.
There are some sport fencing instructors who teach with a more martial art mindset than others. Look for classical fencing organizations that use dry weapons instead of electrics as a good place to start.
While I have a great deal of respect for the level of athleticism and skill required to be a good sport fencer, most modern fencing is a sport, not a martial art. The key difference is that sport fencing does not usually train any kind of survival instinct. Any martial art teacher will tell you that the most important thing is to walk away alive. In Olympic fencing, the most important thing is to tag your opponent, even if you would not survive the action that led to that tag.
There are some sport fencing instructors who teach with a more martial art mindset than others. Look for classical fencing organizations that use dry weapons instead of electrics as a good place to start.
Couldn't agree more - I started my training in Sport Fencing. Although it was good exercise and a very skillful sport, I quickly became very dissatisfied. It gave me a GREAT muscle foundation for actual Fence, but not much else (My Fence instructor kept chanting the Yoda mantra - "unlearn, unlearn")
Sport fencing involves MANY maneuvers that allow you to score a "hit" on your opponent that involve snapping the tip of the foil around your opponents guard, etc. And ELECTRIC fencing can actually allow "touch" without actually hitting your opponent if you snap correctly. Terribly frustrating.
Kruel - yes - I can definitely see what you are saying, and i think you are right to call it a grapple rather than a bind. My concept of a "bind" is one weapon "holding" another in a neutral position. Though technically, your submission holds would be a "bind" against unarmed attacks ...
It's really nice to be able to hash this stuff out with other enthusiasts !
While I have a great deal of respect for the level of athleticism and skill required to be a good sport fencer, most modern fencing is a sport, not a martial art.
Sadly, this seems to be true of what's taught in many "martial arts" academies here in the U.S. Finding combat-oriented training, as opposed to "self-esteem building" or "cardio workouts," is getting to be exceptionally difficult. Apologies to the fans, but even "ultimate fighting" emphasizes sport fighting, not live-or-die stuff.
While I have a great deal of respect for the level of athleticism and skill required to be a good sport fencer, most modern fencing is a sport, not a martial art.Sadly, this seems to be true of what's taught in many "martial arts" academies here in the U.S. Finding combat-oriented training, as opposed to "self-esteem building" or "cardio workouts," is getting to be exceptionally difficult. Apologies to the fans, but even "ultimate fighting" emphasizes sport fighting, not live-or-die stuff.
If you can find a good Jeet Kune Do school, you usually get no-nonsense, here's how you wreck an asshat type stuff...though I always prefer the traditional Chinese martial arts myself (just my preference mind you, different things work for different people).
If you can find a good Jeet Kune Do school, you usually get no-nonsense, here's how you wreck an asshat type stuff...though I always prefer the traditional Chinese martial arts myself (just my preference mind you, different things work for different people).
Working off of a taekwondo foundation (but no longer being as strong or flexible as I used to), my preference for this stage would be Hapkido, but a competent aikido or jiu-jitsu instructor might do in a pinch. Jeet Koon Do always struck me as being kind of like pre-packaged tossed salad, which is great stuff, but I always like to mix my own ingredients. But don't get me started on that, or the poor thread will get hijacked onto Iron Chef and away from the excellence of the Scribe's product, which is patiently sitting in my shopping cart as we speak...
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Sport fencing is also useful for control and training of many combat skills, but one word of warning. While I have a great deal of respect for the level of athleticism and skill required to be a good sport fencer, most modern fencing is a sport, not a martial art. The key difference is that sport fencing does not usually train any kind of survival instinct. Any martial art teacher will tell you that the most important thing is to walk away alive. In Olympic fencing, the most important thing is to tag your opponent, even if you would not survive the action that led to that tag.
and Right of Way just screws up the realism even more. Coming from a marital arts background into sport fencing, I keep getting told I'm too close, but they tag me on the top of the shoulder while I hit them in the face/chest... I consider that a ok double touch - any other ones are 'eh at least it wasn't one touch his (yeah for epee!) :)
And ELECTRIC fencing can actually allow "touch" without actually hitting your opponent if you snap correctly. Terribly frustrating.
They've changed the contact of the tips so that this is no longer an issue [edit: or at least not as much of an issue - compared to a few years ago is a lot harder]
But don't get me started on that, or the poor thread will get hijacked onto Iron Chef and away from the excellence of the Scribe's product, which is patiently sitting in my shopping cart as we speak...
What the heck are you waiting for man ! Get to it !
En guarde allready !
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Right of Way just screws up the realism even more. Coming from a marital arts background into sport fencing, I keep getting told I'm too close, but they tag me on the top of the shoulder while I hit them in the face/chest... I consider that a ok double touch - any other ones are 'eh at least it wasn't one touch his (yeah for epee!) :)
Unfortunately the right of way rules have become really distorted from their original intent (and from what I understand are becoming even more distorted). I actually respect the intent of right of way as I understand it; when your opponent attacks you, your first responsibility is to defend yourself. This is a vestigial trace of fencing's martial origins.
Coming from a marital arts background into sport fencing, I keep getting told I'm too close, but they tag me on the top of the shoulder while I hit them in the face/chest...
I was once in a rubber-knife sparring match with a guy who stabbed me in the foot, just before I seized his head and yanked my knife across his throat. They told me he won because I was touched first. I looked at my foot, looked at his throat... and bowed respectfully to the instructor, when I saw that he was grinning from ear to ear.
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Unfortunately the right of way rules have become really distorted from their original intent (and from what I understand are becoming even more distorted). I actually respect the intent of right of way as I understand it; when your opponent attacks you, your first responsibility is to defend yourself. This is a vestigial trace of fencing's martial origins.
this is true.. But I was alway a defensive fighter in martial arts. I had a mean defensive side kick and defensive spin side kick, so converting over became hard because it was alway my opponent attacks I counter attack his point for the first year of competitions.
Altho for fun we asked an FIE director if I did a jump kick at my opponant if there was anything in the rulebook against it as long as I didn't make contact or turn my back... when he said no I did it in my next bout did 'point in line' and then just side kick 3/4 of the strip at once, pulling my foot back an inch from his face and dropping my tip just int time for the point.. it was the most fun point I've ever gotten in my Foil carrier (again in epee it would have cost me a point, but it was fun)
I was once in a rubber-knife sparring match with a guy who stabbed me in the foot, just before I seized his head and yanked my knife across his throat. They told me he won because I was touched first. I looked at my foot, looked at his throat, and shrugged.
I don't know what's more disturbing, the result or that there are rubber-knife sparring matches ...
I don't know what's more disturbing, the result or that there are rubber-knife sparring matches ...
Probably not as useful as sparring with real knives, but better than just pretending to have one, and it cuts down on lawsuits. If you're going to use a knife, it's nice to know how. (The Boy Scouts teach how to whittle wood safely, but that training, alas, doesn't extend to whittling people.)
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I don't know what's more disturbing, the result or that there are rubber-knife sparring matches ...
We used to do those as lower belts who didn't have the physical discipline to handle real knifes (I started when i was 8).
The way we would have called that was "He got the point and wins the match, but is unable to receive his prize because he's bleeding out on the ground. No winner" They became fun (for 10 yr olds) when we got to face off against the head instructor 3v1, but didn't know that he had thin 'rubber throwing knives' 10 second match he took all 3 of us down :)
also used to love the 'street clothes classes' where you came onto the floor dressed as normal with everything you usually have in your pockets and they'ed put you in random real world situations (this was during a 9-10PM class) including lights out, or going outside to the ally next to the school and use one of the black belt's vans to simulate someone trying to kidnap you, or start on the ground and prevent your opponent from drawing the knife they have while you are unarmed.
oops.. sorry for the rant
Personally I'm a big fan of the broad red marker, white T-shirt sparring matches. You really learn how dangerous a knife is when you take a gander at the "wounds" you sustained when its all over.
BTW: Best Knife Fighting Move Ever = The Hunted with Benico Del Toro and Tommy Lee Jones...so good.
If you can find a good Jeet Kune Do school, you usually get no-nonsense, here's how you wreck an asshat type stuff...though I always prefer the traditional Chinese martial arts myself (just my preference mind you, different things work for different people).Working off of a taekwondo foundation (but no longer being as strong or flexible as I used to), my preference for this stage would be Hapkido, but a competent aikido or jiu-jitsu instructor might do in a pinch. Jeet Koon Do always struck me as being kind of like pre-packaged tossed salad, which is great stuff, but I always like to mix my own ingredients. But don't get me started on that, or the poor thread will get hijacked onto Iron Chef and away from the excellence of the Scribe's product, which is patiently sitting in my shopping cart as we speak...
Awesome! :-)
Yeah, Jeet Kune Do does WONDERS for you, but only if you have a fairly solid base in something first. Otherwise you don't have the legs and power to back it up most of the time.
In my Jeet Kune Do school I was always impressed with the guys who only did Jeet in light sparring, but when we started to really go at it in full contact work, they were much more impressed with the years I sunk into Iron Shirt and turning my fists into rocks. ;-)
Edit: Or as one of my first kung-fu teachers put it: Give me your bee-stings and let me really hit you once. Ah, Hong Quan, those were wildly fun times.
Edit: Or as one of my first kung-fu teachers put it: Give me your bee-stings and let me really hit you once. Ah, Hong Quan, those were wildly fun times.
I've had a similar dilemma with those Muy Thai guys. Once they grab your head, unless you can break both their thumbs immediately, it's all over -- they maul you to death. I figure I'm just not quite fast enough anymore to count on kicking their legs out before they get close.
I have yet to pick this up but I am becoming convinced. I have been looking for a dueling/swordplay system for quite a few years and found one in a older issue of dragon... so i HAVE to ask.
Does dragon issue #301 have anything to do with all these swordplay rules, parrying? ;) I loved all that good stuff. Just wondering if that had anything to do with this.
BTW: Best Knife Fighting Move Ever = The Hunted with Benico Del Toro and Tommy Lee Jones...so good.
Totally.
But my favorite. When Riddick breaks the handle off the knife in that guy's head. Sequel to Pitch Black, almost as bad as the Highlander sequel, can't remember the title.
And (back to knifing) those white t-shirt matches, awesome.
I've had a similar dilemma with those Muy Thai guys. Once they grab your head, unless you can break both their thumbs immediately, it's all over -- they maul you to death. I figure I'm just not quite fast enough anymore to count on kicking their legs out before they get close.
About 2 years into being the chief in my own dojo some guy came in to train with me: he was a retired black belt in Muy Thai. Man that changed me.
Yeah, Jeet Kune Do does WONDERS for you, but only if you have a fairly solid base in something first.
This is quite true, and everything Bruce Lee wrote about his style was directed toward people who had a lot of experience already. My Muy Thai fried was actually the one who introduced me to JKD.
Still all the mixed training I did was nothing compared to the basics I learned when I was young.
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So,...WRT the two guys in the intro piece: is that story, the exact whyfores and wheretos of that ever to be more thoroughly explained, or is it just out there purposely uncompleted?
That story is loosely based on historical events, although not one particular historical event. Just the kind of thing that happened more than once.
I worked out the full details of the before and after of the story, but when I wrote it, I liked it kind of left unexplained. But I have recently been thinking of building upon it for future articles. We'll see.
Of course, by leaving it open, I can now change everything if I want to too.
Working off of a taekwondo foundation (but no longer being as strong or flexible as I used to), my preference for this stage would be Hapkido, but a competent aikido or jiu-jitsu instructor might do in a pinch.
I've agree with this 100%. Although there are karate schools that teach the basic principles of these arts VERY well and much more rigorously. Also, there are of late a lot of schools teaching watered down crappy Hapkido, Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido.
It like this everywhere. I respect Chinese Gong Fu very much, but finding good teaching here in China is surprisingly hard. 95% of the instructors I've seen since coming here telegraph terribly and are unable to fight with the economy and speed I see in good karate. I have seen more amazing tricks than I ever dreamed, but I'd never use any of them in a real fight.
I think that a lot of good gong fu programs over here have been diluted into this militaristic kind of obedience training.
I think that a lot of good gong fu programs over here have been diluted into this militaristic kind of obedience training.
Over here, the karate studios have seemingly all become "cardio kickboxing" aerobics workouts, or maybe self-esteem for toddlers. Many of my co-workers -- almost universally unable to walk up a flight of stairs -- stand around the water cooler saying things like "I do karate! What a great workout!" and "My son is a 17th degree black belt! We had a karate theme birthday party last week when he turned three!"
The "serious" dojos seem to adhere to the belief that standing around and yelling is an adequate substitute for training.
It has turned into a dance-stepping, buy-your-belt kinda world, hasn't it? If you don't teach your students how to punch through an object, you're teaching them fight choreography for their high-kickin' film debut. I haven't had respect for the state of most martial arts training I've seen for some time now. Thanks for going first, guys.
Rone's advice on tournament fighting:
Have a good teacher. Follow the rules and do what you teacher taught you. Do it better than the other guy. Learn to throw out trophies, because four years of winning can really fill up a room and make you look vain and sad. Pictures of holding your trophies at the competitions are always better. That said, if your family is all proud and wants to show them off... more power to them. Bring girls around to meet the fam and then the way you don't react to your own trophies shows how mature you are. It's a terrible lie but she'll never know.
Rone's advice on bar fights done easy (a "poorly raised" boys will be "should have been aborted" boys moment):
Try not to go to jail, but don't try too hard. Proving self defense is a great way to protect yourself against an assault charge, but if self defense means catching any piece of a beat down on your way to striking second, you've already given too much away. I'd rather have a small record than Nicko Mcbrain's nose. We all know a coiled serpent is about to strike, and that often stands up in court. "I was absolutely certain he was going to hit me, your honor."
Man, I've got that down.
Let's say a sarcastic dude's aggression is bolstered by the stack of friends behind him.
"F#@k him up, Gator!"
He closes space and peppers you with snarky comments. Just as an animal in nature, the space between you and your enemy is not something to go blind to out of social grace. People will sidle up on or slip behind you and punch something important just like that. And why not, dummy? You giftwrapped the opening.
The would-be predator is testing you. This means it's on. I repeat. It's on. Once you are fairly certain the fight is going to happen Do Not Hesitate, because at this point you can't escape the coming violence or humiliation yet you still have your best option to end it early. Ready?
Poke his eye really hard with an unbending finger. This should render him a face gripping child and pretty much strip him of his will to continue.
"Whad'you do that for?!"
If you miss, go instantly bruto-rilla on him without stopping to see if it's working. Do Not Stop To See If It Is Working or the leverage of momentum is lost.
Do this until it is clear the fight has left your opponent. His unconsciousness or uncontrollable flatulence from the floor are sure signs. Then pick him up off the ground, dust him off and apologize that it had to come to that even though you had nothing to do with initiating the conflict. He'll remember your kindness and respect you for it but you're really only being nice now so his friends don't hold you down while he stabs you to death in the parking lot later. Don't ever invite him over. He's not friend material. He's an asshat who starts fights.
Rone's advice for dealing with muggers:
Line it up and kick a kneecap back the way it came. Quickly kick it again. Don't waste time on groin kicks unless you have the power to lift a man's body into the air with such a blow. I'm being literal. Anyway he's now down. Open up the arsenal and break him so he'll never be able to try this again. Spit on what's left. Go home, wash up, log onto Paizo and tell me the whole story.
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So,...WRT the two guys in the intro piece: is that story, the exact whyfores and wheretos of that ever to be more thoroughly explained, or is it just out there purposely uncompleted?That story is loosely based on historical events, although not one particular historical event. Just the kind of thing that happened more than once.
I worked out the full details of the before and after of the story, but when I wrote it, I liked it kind of left unexplained. But I have recently been thinking of building upon it for future articles. We'll see.
Of course, by leaving it open, I can now change everything if I want to too.
Cool. I work that way...