saucercrab wrote:

As opposed to... robomedic? ;)

I'd say medic implies a biological component.

Biomedicine (i.e. medical biology) is a branch of medical science that applies biological and physiological principles to clinical practice. The branch especially applies to biology and physiology. Biomedicine also can relate to many other categories in health and biological related fields.

It includes many biomedical disciplines and areas of specialty that typically contain the "bio-" prefix such as molecular biology, biochemistry, biotechnology, cell biology, embryology, nanobiotechnology, biological engineering, laboratory medical biology, cytogenetics, genetics, gene therapy, bioinformatics, biostatistics, systems biology, neuroscience, microbiology, virology, immunology, parasitology, physiology, pathology, anatomy, toxicology, and many others that generally concern life sciences as applied to medicine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomedicine

That's interesting, but I don't think that level of detail would apply to the game. Medic, as a noun, has certain connotations separating it from medical, an adjective. I'll qualify my previous statement ;-)

In the setting & rules, medic would already imply a biological component.

Biomedic.

As opposed to... robomedic? ;)

I'd say medic implies a biological component.

Count me in for changing vanguard to something more like entropist. Vanguard is too generic; it's not a standard class like most in the core rules. A name intimating the class's abilities, like solarian does, makes it just a bit more special, & not just run-of-the-mill. I'll enjoy more classes like this in SF, that draw upon cosmic forces.

For bio-hacker, I don't know if the name totally jives with what the class does. It's more like a bio-buffer, with how it implements it's abilities. But I can't think of anything better.

For witchwarper, I'd really, really like to drop/change the witch part. As is, it's too close to witchwyrd, which could be cause for confusion. (even if that looks to be the iconic race/class combo). I don't mind the alliteration, & warpweaver sounds cool to me.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

My group just started playing SF a couple months ago (but we've played PF since the the first AP). We're in our first campaign (Dead Suns), & nobody has died yet, so we're still on our first characters. we don't play in Society games, just a home group.

I'm playing a Drow solarian, & the other PCs are a Nuar mechanic, a Damaya Lashunta operative (the player loves Mantis from GotG), Human soldier, Kasatha technomancer, & Shirren mystic (DMPC). The Human & Kasatha are latecomers to the game, & since we're not always available for sessions, the Shirren is there to fill in the gaps sometimes.

I'd like to add, I do love the variety of sapient species to choose from as PCs. Although I have no desire to play most of them, it's neat that there is such a range in physical forms, since the game isn't limited by constraints found in tv & movie.

I'm yet another person reading & loving this thread. Keep up the good work :D

How's Akashic War & the pharaoh class coming along?

FAQ +1!

Drejk,
I could finally use my Kellid ranger, named Turok Dinosaur Hunter?

In our group, I was the first player to get a Daern's instant fortress (this was a 2nd Ed. game). I used it to kill an astral deva (my character was... not good, in a not-good campaign).

I played a half-iron-dragon fighter, specialized in dual-wielding broadswords, & his favorite weapon was a super-expanding Rubic's cube.

Here ya' go, another source for +1 weapon size: the Celestial Obedience feat, with Falayna as a patron (Chronicle of Righteous, pages 5 & 12): At 16th level/HD, you can increase your weapon's damage die +1 for your HD in rounds per day. Swift action to use, can be used in 1 round increments.

I have a build using the aegis from Dreamscarred Press, using some of the mentioned options, to be able to do colossal damage as a medium creature:
1. Aegis with the Powerful Build customization at first level, to be able to wield a large greatsword (3d6 base damage).
2. Take the Augmented Weapon customization at 6th level (+1 weapon size = 4d6).
3. Impact weapon ('nother +1 weapon size = 6d6).
4. Celestial Obedience: Falayna feat taken prior to 16th level (+1 weapon size for 16+ rounds per day = 8d6).

As far as I can tell, it should all stack.

I got the shipping email, & the books are in my DLs page now.

Thanks!

I just realized that this order has been pending since 3/7/13 (my group took a break from Pathfinder, so I wasn't looking for PF stuff). I can't find a reason why it hasn't shipped yet.

I'm also in agreement with those that feel that the delayed acquisition of a new spell level is a bit unwarranted. It's also a bit odd that only sorcerers & oracles get the staggered treatment. Bards & summoners are at no disadvantage compared to magi & alchemists.

I was thinking of the following:
Oracles/sorcerers would gain a new spell level at the same level as clerics/wizards, gaining 0 (or 1; haven't decided) spell slots (as opposed to "-" slots), modified by high Charisma. The mystery/bloodline spell would become known at this time (either 1 or 2 levels early). This would fulfill the requirement of being able to cast x level spells for PrC entry, etc.

For an oracle's cure/inflict spells, those would still be gained at the normal rate.

Samsung Epic 4G here.

Sorry for the thread necromancy (thread stabilizing?).

A friend is playing a linnorm-blooded sorcerer, & I noticed this too. Per RAW, I don't think they stack, since they are like bonuses. However, I think they should, since why make two abilities that conflict like that? As it is, this type of character going into dragon disciple will lose out on the bite attack. If the DM or player notices it, I'll say it should be houseruled for the linnorm ability to grant a typeless bonus to NA.

I FAQ'ed this, if only to bring attention to it.

saucercrab wrote:

Alienfreak wrote:

But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.

So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.

If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)

JJ usually indicates when it's his opinion; this seemed a blanket statement he was making/clarifying (0 hd = no type proficiencies). Plus, it wasn't just the creative director that was cited by Set. Another piece of evidence is the ifrit monster entry (Bestiary 2, page 160). The example is a sorcerer who blew a feat on Martial Weapon (scimitar).

However, I agree it needs to be FAQ'ed ASAP.

If you note the first link to Jacobs' reply, you will see that the staff (probably SKR's) response to the FAQ request was "No response required."

In other words: they considered his answer enough and did not consider it worth it to post up a response in the FAQ or errata.

I'll also note that for people wanting RAW, most 0 HD races have a line in their description that goes, for example, like this:

PRD wrote:

Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.

Note the "are defined by class levels" part. That's the RAW you're looking for. That means skills, feats, and proficiencies are determined by class level, not by racial hit dice. The monster abilities granted by creature type all have to do with hit die advancement--you should no more give a race proficiencies based on monster hit dice any more than you should give them hit points from monster hit dice or skill ranks. In other words, a native outsider doesn't automatically get good Reflex and Will saves, nor are they guaranteed a d10 hit die, nor do they get 6 skill points a level based on race--and just as they don't get these things, they don't get the proficiencies listed in the same list of traits either.

Back to the issue of point...

Ah, thank you. :-)

FraterEAO,
Also (if you're still wondering), the part about weapon/armor proficiencies is under the outsider type, not the native subtype.

But James Jacobs has sometimes some weird approaches to rules.

So quoting him and saying it overrules something is a bid "weak". It would be a good point for a house rule, though.

If Sean came around and said so. Or if they would finally put up some errata with it ;)

JJ usually indicates when it's his opinion; this seemed a blanket statement he was making/clarifying (0 hd = no type proficiencies). Plus, it wasn't just the creative director that was cited by Set. Another piece of evidence is the ifrit monster entry (Bestiary 2, page 160). The example is a sorcerer who blew a feat on Martial Weapon (scimitar).

However, I agree it needs to be FAQ'ed ASAP.

Hey has anyone made an optimal build for a Spherewalker?

I am thinking a straight fighter and focusing on throwing starknifes. Any ideas are welcome, I want an awesome Spherewalker.

The build idea (& level breakdown) I would like to try eventually is ranger (guide & skirmisher archetypes) 3/rogue (knife master archetype) 3/horizon walker 10/spherewalker 4. It can fit both the Two-Weapon Fighting & Dimensional Agility feat trees.

Ranger is to start Two-Weapon Fighting & fulfill the horizon walker requirements. Rogue knife master is for extra starknife damage. Horizon walker is for the dim door SLA. Dimensional Agility (& its feat tree) for setting up flanking for sneak attacks. Spherewalker is just gravy.

That said, it'll take a while to get really started, & Wisdom is definitely important, but it's a fun, flavorful build.

saucercrab wrote:

Geshko,

Would you say a Red Mantis assassin that gains levels in eldritch knight is able to advance in caster level (but not spells per day) past the 10th level mark?

By RAW? No.

By RAI? I don't see it breaking anything, sure.

Really? Hmm. I always figured it was RAW. I can't find anything preventing it.

Greg,
Nope, not updated. Yes, hopefully the hardcover will clear it up.

Geshko,
Would you say a Red Mantis assassin that gains levels in eldritch knight is able to advance in caster level (but not spells per day) past the 10th level mark?

After starting this thread & rereading the spherewalker ad nauseum, I think it could be read either way; PrCs that advance existing spellcasting don't take into account the spherewalker's hinky spellcasting, lending to the uncertainess (in my mind, anyway).

SirGeshko,

(The second question was just using an example for the first question.)

For your answers, are you speaking as per RAI or RAW?

Because, under Spells per Day in the divine PrCs that I looked over (in the core rules & APG, & the divine scion), it states that they advance as per the base class the spellcasting is from. For example:

Inner Sea Magic[/i], page 46]When a divine scion gains a level, she gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of divine scion to the level of whatever other divine spellcasting class she has.

If the character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a divine scion, she must choose which class she adds each divine scion level to for the purposes of determining spells per day.

I read the bolded text to mean you add both class levels together, then figure out the spellcasting. If a character with 3 spherewalker levels gains 1 level in divine scion, the two are added together, to equal 4 effective spherewalker levels. Four spherewalker levels equals eight spellcaster levels. (The PrC descriptions refer to increasing the effective level of the base class, not increasing the effective spellcasting level.)

Do you see what I mean? I agree that the spherewalker is an anomaly when it comes to spellcasting, but the wording of other PrCs looks like they can take advantage of this.

Here's a neat trick. Is it legal?

When a non-spellcasting character enters the spherewalker PrC, it gains divine spellcasting equal to double the PrC's class level, & access to all of Desna's domain spells. If the character multiclassed further, into another PrC that advances divine spellcasting (like the divine scion from ISM), would the rate of spellcasting advance at the same rate (two caster levels per PrC level, & one spell level per PrC level)?

Would a fighter 5/spherewalker 5/divine scion 10 have a 30th caster level, & access to all of Desna's domain spells, levels 1-9? That's only 5-6 spells known per level (there is a bit of overlap) & probably only 2 spells per level memorized. Not very feasible, but a caster level 30 holy word is pretty nasty.

Hi all! My players, stop reading now!

I'll be starting Endless Night with my group this weekend, & going along with the sandbox possibilities of spending time in the drow metropolis, I came up with some rumors to be found via Diplomacy (gather information function). I came up with twenty (perfect for d20 rolls).

I used some other sources to come up with this listing (Into the Darklands, Classic Monsters Revisited, etc.), & I know what'll be true or false in my game, but I thought I'd throw this out there.

Could the second one be a unique protean?

I searched & didn't find this one: pages 275-276, the rage prophet has a d10 hit die, but only average base attack bonus. Should the BA improve, or should the hit die be lowered?

I had preordered mine & it shipped last Wednesday (7/28). I got it on Monday (8/2) via regular USPS. I live in New Jersey.

I have another (subscription) preorder that shipped on 7/29 & I haven't gotten it yet.

Weird, but I'm not complaining much (since I got the .pdfs for the latter). :-)

If I were officially rebuilding/revising the devil, I'd probably just turn it into a natural armor bonus to keep things from raising too many unnecessary questions, though. ;-P

Bickity bam! My thoughts exactly. Weird stuff for weird creatures is all well & good, but stuff like this I think should have some consistency.

BTW, my APG came in the mail today (earlier than I expected). I effin' love it! :-D

Actually, I'd keep the deflection bonus as it is. It's a devil, after all. It can have weird powers like a natural deflection bonus to its AC. And keep the flight as well. Flight is an important element to keep in mind for monsters that aren't low or mid level.

Hmm, I guess so. It is a bit odd for a devil to not have natural armor, but whatever, it's a small matter. :-)

The deflection bonus is/was based on the Charisma bonus, though. If advancing a(n) Uniila, should the bonus scale with the bonus? Like, give her a similar ability to what a nymph has, but only affecting AC?

And thanks for the continued responses.

The easiest solution is to not make them incorporeal. There's not really anything among their powers or flavor text that implies they SHOULD be incorporeal. I actually suspect that, for whatever reason, the incorporeal subtype snuck in as an error, to be honest. Certainly the artwork doesn't look like she's incorporeal. And if they WERE intended to be incorporeal, then incorporeal should have also been listed as a defensive ability.

So that's the official solution—they're not incorporeal at all.

Okay, I can get behind that. Thanks, boss-man.

So, a +5 natural armor bonus to replace the deflection bonus seems reasonable. Should they keep the flight & add... say, 30' land speed? The art looks like she's just floating there.

Anything else to revise/add/whatever?

saucercrab wrote:

Speaking of cabal devils (& my apologies for resurrecting this particular subtopic), are they always s'posed to be incorporeal? If so, it raises a bunch of questions as to how effective they are or can operate. If not, other questions arise.

They have the incorporeal subtype, which means they're always incorporeal, yes.

Damn real life, getting in the way of message boarding! ;-)

Okay, if she is always incorporeal, these questions pop up:
1. Why does the Uniila have a Strength score? And an 11? It looks like it was a conscious decision to put one of the three, standard 11's there.
2. Do each of her daggers have the ghost touch property?
3. Spells & material components; an Uniila doesn't have Eschew Components, so how does she cast some of her spells?
4. Her Scroll Mastery special ability; does she rely entirely on mage hand & unseen servant to create scrolls? What about materials & costs?
5. How does she carry her treasure?

Liebdaga's attack bonuses are all 1 point too high--the negative levels are accounted for, but not his -1 for being Large. His primary attacks should be at +14 and his secondary attacks at +9.

Of the four monsters in the Bestiary section, two of them are built as two-weapon fighters, and neither actually has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat! Their attack bonuses include no penalties, and in fact the Adukhait is treated as if it has the Improved TWF feat for free! With their feats as written, they should have the following attack bonuses:

Adukhait: Masterwork kukri +11/+6 and masterwork kukri +7

Uniila: +1 dagger +13/+8 and 3 +1 daggers +9

And that's not very impressive. In order to get more acceptable attack bonuses, feats need to be replaced. Let's say, replace the adukhait's Combat Reflexes and Lightning Reflexes for TWF and Improved TWF, and the uniila's Lightning Reflexes with Multiweapon Fighting. Now we get:

Adukhait: 2 masterwork kukris +13/+8

Uniila: +1 dagger +15/+10 and 3 +1 daggers +15

On a related note, Zovarue's snakebite attack roll fails to account for its secondary attack penalty, and should be at +10 and lack any Str bonus to damage (where the +3 came from, I do not know). Her gaze DC is also 1 point too low, and should be DC 19.

Speaking of cabal devils (& my apologies for resurrecting this particular subtopic), are they always s'posed to be incorporeal? If so, it raises a bunch of questions as to how effective they are or can operate. If not, other questions arise.

Spacelard,
Pretty sure I have those issues. Thanks.

Mairkurion & James,
A spiral? Neato. That's what she'll use (unless a cooler one comes along). Thanks!

Benicio,
Not sure what info I can glean from Ptah. But thanks for the suggestion.

Kthulhu,
It matters to the mere humanoids though. And the mere players playing the mere humanoids. ;-)

Velcro,
I was looking for PF sources with this thread. :-) I have been scouring the intarwebs for other material (Wikipedia being a frequent stop), & I guess I will have to continue. I did look at the alienist, but it stresses insanity, while I want to strike a balance between that & the Dark Tapestry. I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do mechanically (use secrets like the loremaster, with each 'revelation' pertaining to a particular Outer God). I'll most likely start a new thread in Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew when I post what I've come up with for rules-critiquing.

Tom,
Ooh, that's going on my wish list (for a little while at least).

Sean,
Another one for the 'ol wish list. Will that have any info on holy symbols? Care to spill the beans then? ;-) I'm at a loss as to what to use; thank the gods the character keeps it hidden.

Thanks all.

Hello all!

My current character is a divine caster that worships the Great Old Ones (yeah, it's an evil campaign). I've been doing some research to come up with a divine prestige class with a theme related to their portfolio (mainly, madness & outer space).

I'm looking for Pathfinder sources that refer or talk about them. So far I've found:

• PF Campaign Setting, pages 198 (The Coils of Ydersius) & 199 (The Old Cults);
• Into the Darklands, page 48 (Denebrum, with named Old Ones Yog-Sothoth & Azathoth);
• Gods & Magic, page 51 (Other Cults); &
• PF AP #14, pages 48-55 (Into the Black, The Worlds Beyond)

Are there any others?

As a bump, here's another thing I noticed in the Bestiary, but not here:

All the monsters with sorcerer casting get cantrips, as does the lone one with bard casting (azata lillend). The lone monster with druid casting (nymph) gets orisons. But all the cleric casters don't get orisons. The lammasu (a cleric caster) in the Bonus Bestiary does get orisons. I'm hoping this inconsistency is an error, & all monsters with class-based spellcasting do get 0-level spells, else a solar can't detect magic.

Also, the nymph listing mentions not being able to swap out memorized spells for summon spells, but the listings for cleric casters don't mention not being able to swap out memorized spells for cure/inflict spells. However, most of the cleric casters have cure spells memorized as standard, so that would imply that they cannot swap out spells. Which leads me to my follow-up question/point for this post:

What exactly counts as spell use for monsters with cleric casting? So far:
1) no domain use (so no domain spells);
2) most likely no cure/inflict swapping;
3) no orisons, but that may be an oversight (hopefully :crosses fingers:); so what about
4) opposed alignment spells?

This would apply to druid casters as well, I think, & similar questions are raised for sorcerer/bard casters (no bloodlines obviously, but can they switch out known spells every few levels if advancing caster level with base or prestige class levels?)

Whew, this turned out longer than I thought.

Okay, I didn't see this mentioned (in this thread, anyway). The ghaele's light rays are not listed as ranged touch attacks, but the lantern archon's are; both were ranged touch attacks in 3.5. Design change or error?

Thanks.

I did check that thread previously, but only skimmed. Just did a ctrl+f search now, & found the post.

anthony Valente wrote:

Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics or for every 5 points of BAB, until the start of your next turn.

For those that invest in Acrobatics or have a high BAB, the benefits scale as follows:
Level 5 (5 ranks/+5 BAB) +2 bonus
Level 10 (10 ranks/+10 BAB) +3 bonus
Level 15 (15 ranks/+15 BAB) +4 bonus
Level 20 (20 ranks/+20 BAB) +5 bonus

This may be getting too rules laden though.

I like this as a solution.

Doug

I like it too. It doesn't seem too rules laden, though. If your character has Dodge, you should already know in advance how much of a bonus he'll get.

(Currently my group uses the "always on" house-rule for Dodge; that "pick an enemy" jibber-jabber is annoying.)

I mentioned [spoilers] in the thread title, right? You were warned.

Regarding the map(s) of the Shadow Clock on page 52, has there been any mention of errors on it? Specifically, there are huge chunks of stairs missing, & coupled with the fact that sections of the stairs will collapse when too much weight is applied, I see it as extremely difficult (if not well nigh-impossible) for non-fliers to ascend to the top (wanna' try a rope & grappling hook?!). The description for E2 only mentions a few stairs at a time as missing. I wanna' assume the maps are a bit off, & that the stairs are relatively complete, all the way to the bells at E3.

Also, has anyone figured out the height of each level? I've guesstimated about 25' or so.

(I tried searching for existing posts, but no dice. Does my search-fu suck?)

I'm all for taking Jump out of Acrobatics & combining it with Climb in Athletics. Not sure about Swim; I can take or leave its placement right now.

Oh please gods yes! The new version of power attack stinks. return the 3.5 method to us. Variable power attack.

If it's that big an issue, have the "running the game" part contain some problem solving advice: "If someone takes three minutes to decide on his power attack level, hit him over the head with a ten-foot pole and let him skip his turn."

+1

So, does this mean that the assassin of the gods gets preferential treatment from the Paizo staff, since his pic's been around for a while? ;-)

I've had two so far, both in Burnt Offerings, both by the same player.

Name of PC: Kestien Whisperwillow
Class/Level: Gnome druid 1/wizard 1, was aiming for arcane hierophant PrC. Was.
Catalyst: Irony?
The group (five players & one DMPC) had cleared the top/goblin level of Thistletop & was checking the rooms/areas one by one. When they came to [C18 Caged Horse] & opened the door, Kestien attempted to calm Shadowmist using wild empathy. Multiple times. Because the player kept rolling way under the DC. And also, every time, she skooched closer to the horse, even as it backed away. She finally cornered it & failed another WE roll, so Shadowmist kicked out at her. And critted. And rolled nearly max. damage. Like Gallagher & a watermelon.

Name of PC: Erim Gilnore
Class/Level: Dwarf cleric of Cayden Cailean
Catalyst: Never bum-rush the BBEG.
Two or three sessions later, the group, minus one gnome but plus one dwarf, had finally reached [E4 Observation Deck] & initiative had been rolled. The dwarf ran in to battle Nualia toe to toe. She popped off cause fear. The elf (archer) ranger ran, scared out of his mind. The human fighter dropped his weapons & cowered, unable to flee. Leaving the (other) elf rogue, halfling swordsage/monk, & half-elf rogue/sorcerer to try to battle Nualia on one side, & a pack of manes on the other (coming from E5). Hey, there were six adventurers. Anyway, the dwarf got whittled down, being up close, & after he went down, dying but not dead yet, the first ever death knell was cast in one of our games (by Nualia, in case it wasn't clear). Then the battle went downhill. ;-D Not a TPK, but the party was quite unprepared for the speed at which hit point totals plummeted.

As for beguilers, warmages, & I think dread necromancers(?), I'd revise them to be similar to the sorcerer: at each odd level, get a choice of one of the next higher level spells as known, & get one slot (plus any for high Cha) per day for it. When the even level comes around, full # of slots & spells known.

Snorter wrote:

3) Offer a spell the character won't have yet. Radical solution here. Instead of offering a bonus spell of the level they can already cast, and forcing them to delay getting their iconic spells, offer a higher level spell, one level early. A taster of the spells to come, initially castable once per day.

Once they officially gain that spell level, at the next class level on, this bonus bloodline spell joins the single, new, free-choice spell as one of those the character can spontaneously cast.
Keep the list of bonus spells the same, but change the acquisition to levels 1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, with the first on the list being freely castable, in addition to the 2 1st-level spells known (essentially, this was gained as a level 0 adolescent, and is now known by heart).

This is an awesome idea... I'm amazed it took so long for someone to figure it out!.

Obviously, I agree with the idea. Solves a lot of the Feat/ PrC/ whatever prerequisite problems as well.

That's actually kinda' what my group currently does (or would do, if someone played a full sorcerer): at every odd level, she would get one spell known & one spell slot for it (plus any bonus for high Charisma) of the next higher spell level. Limiting it to the bloodline spell (or choice of spells if bloodline bonus spells can be increased to two or even three per level) is an even better version.

saucercrab wrote:

It's a discrepancy between two supposedly equal classes. :shrugs:

Don't know if more bloodline powers are needed, but equality between them needs to be worked on a bit.

Eh that is one of the issues. I am not sure if they should be equality like that.

Ok here what I am getting at. The sorcerer needs to step up and be his own class. It's time for him to stop being the wizard clone.

One of the main reasons (in 3.5) that the sorcerer is a wizard clone is they have the same spell list, with a sprite's handful of exceptions (so that's a really small handful). Clerics & druids have (almost) identical spellcasting progression, but differ in special abilities & spell lists. I'm not saying that I think sorcerers should have a different spell list (because I don't); just wanted to state it outright for the discussion.

For me, bloodlines (& spontaneous casting) is enough of a difference. Bloodlines should accentuate the difference, but not take over the spot that spellcasting occupies.

I have seen alot of them played and never once has the staged casting been the issue.

Conversely, in my group, I can count the number of sorcerers played on one hand, with four fingers chopped off (& that was a sharn). Staggered casting & the small amount of spells known were the culprits.

granting a half-elf an extra skill point per level wouldn't hurt my feelings at all, but I'd almost want them to lose the skill focus at that point.

Since I wasn't clear, yeah, I'd switch those in a heartbeat. Extra skill point in, Skill Focus out.

saucercrab wrote:

Sorcerer & wizard don't acquire new spell levels at the same rate, but (now) have different special abilities.

Eh I am ok with that and still dont see why its an issue.

I do think they need more bloodline powers and not just the 4 they have

It's a discrepancy between two supposedly equal classes. :shrugs:

Don't know if more bloodline powers are needed, but equality between them needs to be worked on a bit.

saucercrab wrote:

I think Laithoron was referring to the fact that the main purpose of fighters & barbarians is based on having a full BAB, while the main purpose of sorcerers & wizards is based on arcane spellcasting.

I knew what he meant that's why the smilys in there.

I misread your smiley then. Thought it was in relation to your comparing the different BAB's (good & good vs poor & poor).

But it is flawed the fighter and the barb are nothing alike and the 3.5 sorc is just like a wizard mostly, Its a sad little clone. That was what I was saying. The BAB is a function of a melee class where spellcasting is spellcaster no matter if you get your spells 1 level later or not it is still spellcasting.

Drop one of the melee based clases down one BAB rank and it no longer is a melee class, same can not be said for casters.

It's a clone (or it was) because the nonspellcasting abilities were either the same or just nonexistent. Now, with bloodline abilities, sorcerers do take on their own schtick, but they are still at a loss when it comes to spellcasting.

Here's another way to phrase it:
Fighter & barbarian acquire iterative attacks (by way of their BAB) at the same rate, have but different class abilities.
Cleric & druid acquire new spell levels at the same rate, but have different special abilities.
Sorcerer & wizard don't acquire new spell levels at the same rate, but (now) have different special abilities.