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I've been thinking about this for a while. Are the extra spells/day and the ability to cast them spontaneously really such an advantage to sorcerers/oracles that they get so many disadvantages when compared to prepared casters?
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I mean, come on:
and, of course...
Is this trade off really worth it? Would it be so bad if spontaneous full casters got the same progression as prepared full casters?
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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I can't think of a reason why it would be a bad idea to keep them on-level with prepared casters. The main reason you can point to on keeping it as-is would be legacy.
One of my house rules is that spontaneous casters can use pearls of power and metamagic feats/rods just like wizards. But I stick with their spell progression.
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The limit on the number of spells known alone is enough to balance the sorcerer's inherent flexibility against the wizard. The whole late spell progression was just the designers saying "Here's a non-vancian caster! Yeah, we nerfed it, but we gave you one. Now shut up already!"
Hell, you take the fluff into account, it's the wizard that should have the delayed spellcasting, not the sorcerer; since he's trying to brute force magic through a conduit that is ill-suited for it (himself) as opposed to the sorcerer, who lets the magic flow through him naturally.
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I would reverse your question and ask what's so bad about getting those spells a level later to begin with?
As someone whose played a lot of spontaneous casters for the better part of the game's existence and it isn't a huge disadvantage. At worst it's a minor annoyance at 5th level.
I also disagree with the idea that they have a very limited amount of spells known given how many more spells a typical sorcerer has access to via bloodlines, racial bonuses and feats as well as access to things like wands and scrolls. Sure there might be 20+ spells of a given level but how many of them would you actually cast?
Plus at higher levels they pick up 3-5 spells at a time on odd levels. Spontaneous Meta-magic is also extremely useful to have. The ability to cast and move isn't needed most of the time you also need a meta-magic feat and can even be mitigated with the Arcane bloodline.
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I think the trade off of more spells to cast for knowing fewer of them and getting them later works pretty well. In every game I've played with a sorcerer, that dude is like a freaking spell machine compared to my druids or wizards.
"Wow, that was a heck of a battle! How many more fireballs can you cast now?"
"Just five."
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I've been thinking about this for a while. Are the extra spells/day and the ability to cast them spontaneously really such an advantage to sorcerers/oracles that they get so many disadvantages when compared to prepared casters?
.
..
I mean, come on:
Very limited spells known.
Extended casting time when using metamagic feats. and, of course...
Late spell progression (2nd-level spells at 4th level, instead of 3rd). Is this trade off really worth it? Would it be so bad if spontaneous full casters got the same progression as prepared full casters?
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
If they ever got rid of delayed spell progression for spontaneous casters, I'm quite sure I would NEVER play another Wizard.
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It's especially funny when you consider the fact that for most odd levels wizards have more spells per day than the sorcerer, and that's before thassilonian specialist or other such things. Even on even levels wizards are never rarely more than a spell per level behind.
Then of course we point out all the equipment, feats and the like that allows wizards to either have more spontaneous casting ability and more spells per day, and the entire idea just becomes one very big joke in bad taste.
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I personally like spontaneous casters much more than prepared, mostly for their flexibility. Yes, the prepared spellcasters can probably get whatever you want if you give them a day. But if you're choosing useful and diverse spells, then you shouldn't need to worry about whether or when something comes up, because you can be prepared for a lot of situations. And if there are a couple spells that you might just need for those extremely rare cases? Just grab some scrolls and you're pretty much as set as a prepared caster would be. (Does cost some cash, yes, but so does keeping a spellbook. I admit I don't have a quip for the divine people though)
That said, I really detest that metamagicking spells increases the casting time for spontaneous casters. I feel that spells that take a round to cast are practically begging to get interrupted unless your party is amazing at battlefield control, or you're invisible. I'm sure some spontaneous casters can make use of metamagics, but even with the possible benefits, I personally just don't like the tradeoff of upping the spell level with a high risk of then losing it.
But, that's just me, and I could be wrong. Maybe it's not so hard to use metamagic effectively with them.
Anyway though, yeah, sorcs and whatnot. They're cool, in my opinion.
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It's a heavy-handed balancing tool in the Core game. But the more splatbooks are added, the more the Wizard grows in power compared to the Sorcerer.
I can load up the sorcerer with the same amount of equipment and throw that argument back on the curbside. All these discussions seem to assume that wizards can gather hordes of magic items to try to ape the sorcerer and apparantly the sorcerers must stay penniless so these comparisons can work the way they are desired to.It's especially funny when you consider the fact that for most odd levels wizards have more spells per day than the sorcerer, and that's before thassilonian specialist or other such things. Even on even levels wizards are never rarely more than a spell per level behind.
Then of course we point out all the equipment, feats and the like that allows wizards to either have more spontaneous casting ability and more spells per day, and the entire idea just becomes one very big joke in bad taste.
Except you actually can't, well couldn't until Ultimate Equipment.
With the rings of spell knowledge and the spell pages you can get a lot closer (especially since the rings allow you to grab spells not even on your list). However even here it is cheaper for the wizard to do this than for the sorcerer.
Design Manager
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It's especially funny when you consider the fact that for most odd levels wizards have more spells per day than the sorcerer, and that's before thassilonian specialist or other such things. Even on even levels wizards are never rarely more than a spell per level behind.
Then of course we point out all the equipment, feats and the like that allows wizards to either have more spontaneous casting ability and more spells per day, and the entire idea just becomes one very big joke in bad taste.
Ummm... What? Sorcerer's have substantially more spells per day at most odd levels, even with the extra spell level wizards have. Sorcerers have anywhere from 6 to 9 more spells per day, and even when you bring in specialists with their extra slot, that just trims it down to 4-7. Sorcerer Bloodlines are also generally much more robust than wizard schools, and continue to progress through all tiers of play instead of capping out at or near 8th level.
Ummm... What? Sorcerer's have substantially more spells per day at most odd levels, even with the extra spell level wizards have..It's especially funny when you consider the fact that for most odd levels wizards have more spells per day than the sorcerer, and that's before thassilonian specialist or other such things. Even on even levels wizards are never rarely more than a spell per level behind.
Then of course we point out all the equipment, feats and the like that allows wizards to either have more spontaneous casting ability and more spells per day, and the entire idea just becomes one very big joke in bad taste.
No they don't.
Consider level 3.
Sorcerer and specialist wizard.
Sorcerer has 5 base 1st level spells per day, With an Cha of 20 that means 7.
Specialist Wizard has 2 first level spells... +1 school spell, then he has 1 second level spell +1 school spell for 5 spells per day. With an Int of 20 he now has a total of 5 first level spells and 3 second level spells for 8 spells per day. Arcane bond for 9.
Level 5:
Sorcerer 6 first level spells 4 second level spells and a Cha of 22 (headband) gives him 8 and 6 for a total of 14 spells per day.
Wizard has 3 first level, 2 second and 1 third plus one of each in school spells. With his Int of 22 (again headband) he now has a total of 6 first level, 5 second level and 3 third level for a match of 14 per day. Arcane bond for 15 and then he breaks out his pearl of power and has another spell per day (something the sorcerer can't match).
Also you'll notice the wizard has more spell power at every odd level too, and he's actually more versatile since the sorcerer only has 4 first level spells and 2 second level spells. The wizard can have 5 second level spells and has 3 third level spells to go with it.
On even levels the sorcerer honestly isn't even that far ahead. Lets consider level 6. The sorcerer has 6/5/3 per day and the wizard has 3+1/3+1/2+1 or 4/4/3. It's a difference of 2/1/0 -- not exactly huge, especially if the arcane bond is an item (now it's 2/1/-1) or if pearls of power are considered (something the sorcerer has a hard time matching for price effectiveness and increase in over all power these allow for a spontaneous recharge of a useful spell instead of a set recharge).
Even at level 20 the sorcerer is only a single spell per spell level per day ahead.
I personally never understood the delayed progression for spontaneous casters. The limit is spells known always seemed to be more than enough of a balance factor to me; the raw versatility even a poorly built wizard can have vs a sorcerer is so amazingly large it's not even funny. It is helpful to note that while both are equipment dependent, the wizard gets scribe scroll for free, and a free slot every 5 levels that can be used for additional crafting feats, all without having to spend the feat slots that everyone gets normally; thus, the wizard can more easily attain the scrolls and additional items they need to sustain their power. Sorcerers do get bonus feats, but they usually bolster existing tricks and abilities rather than adding to the overall versatility of the character in the way that crafting feats boost the wizard. The delayed progression also makes it that much harder to consider multi class and prestige class options, and those options are already limiting enough in their implementation that the delayed progression doesn't really do anything other than completely remove them from consideration. In the end, I don't think it necessarily hurts the sorcerer, and now the oracle, to have the delayed progression; I just don't think it serves any real balancing purpose either. It ends up being nothing more than a silly and unnecessary complication to the game, at least in my experience.
One compromise is that they get their spell slots early, but not their spells known early. So while at third, they have 2nd level slots, they have to fill them with 1st level spells, possibly with metamagic.
Is that... spam?
Is that... spam?
Looks like Gary needs to include a new FLAG option about unwanted solicitation...
This is a house rule I always use. Oracles and Sorcerers get their spells known and spells per day as if one level higher, putting them on par with the Vancian casters. There's a bit of fiddling at levels 19 and 20, but otherwise it works out just fine.
If they ever got rid of delayed spell progression for spontaneous casters, I'm quite sure I would NEVER play another Wizard.
I despise Vancian casting, personally, and with the addition of the Oracle and the Shaman to replace the Cleric and Druid, plus the above house rule, I've felt absolutely zero desire to play a class that uses it.
Doubly so with the addition of favored class bonuses and feats to get the spont-caster classes more spells known.
Heck, if I didn't have a player who loved Vancian casting, I'd probably consider removing them from the game completely and letting their spont-cast variants choose at Level 1 which of the two associated stats they wanted to use (so you could still have Int- or Wis-based casting, if your concept called for it). As is, I leave them available for the players who want them, and just use the spont-casters or Psionic classes myself.
That said, I really detest that metamagicking spells increases the casting time for spontaneous casters.
Yeah I houseruled that away too, seemed unnecessary and arbitrary.
One compromise is that they get their spell slots early, but not their spells known early. So while at third, they have 2nd level slots, they have to fill them with 1st level spells, possibly with metamagic.
That is one thing I have considered as well, as it gives them reason and ability to utilize metamagic feats, ensuring that they have versatility within their known powers, but it's still a different kind of versatility than what prepared casters get.
I'm also in agreement with those that feel that the delayed acquisition of a new spell level is a bit unwarranted. It's also a bit odd that only sorcerers & oracles get the staggered treatment. Bards & summoners are at no disadvantage compared to magi & alchemists.
I was thinking of the following:
Oracles/sorcerers would gain a new spell level at the same level as clerics/wizards, gaining 0 (or 1; haven't decided) spell slots (as opposed to "-" slots), modified by high Charisma. The mystery/bloodline spell would become known at this time (either 1 or 2 levels early). This would fulfill the requirement of being able to cast x level spells for PrC entry, etc.
For an oracle's cure/inflict spells, those would still be gained at the normal rate.
Honestly curious :) How would all of these improvements to spontaneous casting play out at level 15 or 16? At which levels are the deficiencies inherent to spontaneous casting most aggravating/noticeable, and is there a point at which the standard rules for these classes close this disparity?
Im very curious to see all the responses. I love playing a sorcerer and would like many thoughts to bring to my group before implementing anything new.