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The current party is composed of a bard (stays out of combat to buff), melee champion of Cayden Cailen, melee cleric of Gorum (specced into Medicine for Battle Medicine in-combat healing and out of combat treatment), and a Wildshape Druid. The current party level is 2 and we are playing The Fall of Plaguestone module.3 casters and 1 martial, of course you're having hard time!
Try with this party composition: champion, fighter/bard, fighter/cleric, fighter/druid.
Note: when people want to show casters are balanced with martial, they cite level 4+ spells (and usually level 6+ uncommon spells). you can allow the PC to reroll as casters at level 10 - but no one should play a caster before level 10. The more caster you have at low level, the harder the game is.
Or, you know, change up tactics. Everything I’ve heard of Plaguestone measures it as extremely difficult. How the party handles combat is far more important in this game than any other I’ve played. Does the bard just cast inspire courage and nothing else? Does the cleric just run into combat without casting any spells? Does the Druid try any spells before shape shifting? If all the casters (aside from the bard) are only fighting like fighters, then they may want to change, but if they want to do caster things, they should use their spells. Maybe instead of changing form and running into combat, or changing form as soon as an enemy gets in melee, the Druid could cast goblin pox or fear. If the cleric runs into melee, is he casting bane or magic weapon? Is the bard using telekinetic projectile, grim tendrils, phantom pain (I love this spell), soothe (great healing when everyone else is martial) or ray of enfeeblement? Having an all-fighter party is not bad in and of itself, but that does not make having casters in that party instead any worse.
I can confirm that Plaguestone is hard with martial majority as well. I've been having to rebalance it.
The bard typically maintains Inspire Courage and casts Daze from range. Druid is (IMO) conceptually confused and not optimized. I keep hearing the player says he is going the Wildshape route, but then I hear him say "I'm primarily a Wisdom based build". I would think a melee druid would be STR based, but I don't like to tell other players how to build their PCs or ask to look at character sheets. He also has a familiar and an animal companion, which I think is going to cripple his action economy.
Champion is using a shield and flick mace to say within 15 ft of mobs/PCs for his reaction. We have a dual wield rogue that sometimes joins us. I am playing a 2-handed greatsword Cleric of Gorum. With it just being myself and the rogue right next to the mobs we get boned if we can't get in and get out. Not enough PC targets to spread out the damage. Since I am the primary healer (healing font and battle medicine) I get stuck trying to get people back up when I could be casting magic weapon and/or true strike and trying to go for a big hit.
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The bard typically maintains Inspire Courage and casts Daze from range. Druid is (IMO) conceptually confused and not optimized. I keep hearing the player says he is going the Wildshape route, but then I hear him say "I'm primarily a Wisdom based build". I would think a melee druid would be STR based, but I don't like to tell other players how to build their PCs or ask to look at character sheets. He also has a familiar and an animal companion, which I think is going to cripple his action economy.
Champion is using a shield and flick mace to say within 15 ft of mobs/PCs for his reaction. We have a dual wield rogue that sometimes joins us. I am playing a 2-handed greatsword Cleric of Gorum. With it just being myself and the rogue right next to the mobs we get boned if we can't get in and get out. Not enough PC targets to spread out the damage. Since I am the primary healer (healing font and battle medicine) I get stuck trying to get people back up when I could be casting magic weapon and/or true strike and trying to go for a big hit.
I think daze is a terrible choice unless it is all but guaranteed to get a critical. Using spells and other attack cantrips may be of better use. The bard casting soothe should also help out a lot. The Druid also seems like he is trying to do too many things: controlling companions is an action each. That doesn’t leave many actions to use spells, but I don’t think strength is necessary if the Druid’s changing shapes since he should be using the creature’s stats. The champions seems to be doing fine, but since he’s using a reach weapon, that makes it difficult for the rogue to get sneak attack without your support. The rogue should probably try to attack and move, which doesn’t help much with dual wielding, but nimble dodge could be another option. For you, I would honestly just play as you like. You shouldn’t have to play healstick if you don’t want to. Just tell the other players that your not just going to focus on healing instead of the build you went for. Also, if all the melee characters aren’t working toward getting adequate AC, you all will probably go down pretty often.
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Also the wizard already understood that his single target dmg will never ever get close to fighter and it is ok. The fighter will never be able to throw a nasty 6d6 fireball against 7 enemies at once, dealing ~140 dmg to them.8 level-4 creature constitute a moderate encounter. 12 level-4 or 8 level-3 creature constitute a severe encounter - ie an encounter you're not supposed to do every day.
So:
- either this was an easy encounter with a lot of creature worth 0 xp, and you litterally accomplished nothing (there's a reason why level-5 creature are worth 0 xp).
- either it was a real encounter and the DM literally packed every enemy in a fireball area so you can insta-kill them with your wizard while the martials were elsewere.So yeah... With some DM fiat, wizards are awesome... And they are awesome at accomplishing nothing...
Or in the proper circumstances, circumstances that would not be too unrealistic or hard to achieve, there were multiple enemies in an area where fireball was the most appropriate spell. There have been multiple times where our sorcerer was able to get multiple creatures (not 7 because I don’t think we’ve faced 7 enemies at once with this party). And that was not due to GM fiat; that was from players agreeing that taking out or weakening enemies was in our best interests, moving and positioning, random placement of enemies, and initiative. Now, we don’t all just make sure the sorcerer can do his thing, there have been multiple times where he has stepped into flanking to allow me to sneak attack, saving me a few rounds of damage as well (I have the lowest health in the party based on builds). My party plays as a team, and we employ tactics (sometimes erroneously because I’m playing the overconfident firebrand), but we succeed more than fail because we adapt, consider our options, and execute what we can.
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Running my party through Plaguestone right now. Just finished Part 2. I can say that the group had a much better go at it this week vs. last b/c they changed their tactics. Group is 2 wizards a Redeemer and a monk. Very limited healing.
P1 you walk up to a monster and just trade full attack actions until one of you is dead. In P2, you effectively run in circles around the room trading one strike each. Once they really internalized the "DON'T STAND STILL" concept the fights got much easier.
See my above post, just finished with the surviving adventures not being STR PCs.
Druid is great for spamming tanglefoot as that will prevent melee from mobbing when half the NPC cannot move fast. companions are great for setting up flanks and net give you an action once in place. For melee druid Shillelagh staff does hurt if a hit gets thru, but Wild Claws was just errata that it can apply to self, it can also stack with Magic fang.
Why can't the melee get out melee - I cannot even remember anything having attack of opportunity in this adventure. a DEX rogue can use acrobatics to tumble thru or use CHA to create a diversion so they can sneak out.
You have most of the party that can help out with healing, champion with lay on hands and druid with natural medicine on top of the cleric. They need to be responsible for making sure they are topped off at focus breaks, and the emergency heals to prevent someone going down....
I play the battle cleric of Gorum. I have an AC 18 (level 2 + trained + chain shirt + 2 DEX) and 30 HPs (human + lvl 2 Cleric + 2 Con + toughness) and keep getting dropped in a round from 2 attacks (Maybe the DM's dice are just hot the last few sessions). I try to buff up with Magic Weapon, move in, and swing. I save True Strike for tough combat since it is verbal and like to stack it when Magic Weapon is still going. Will use my 3rd action to either move back or cast shield if it is not on cooldown.
I am second-guessing if I should have picked a diety with a 1-handed weapon to go sword and board route. It seems if I get hit by 2 attacks, I can go from 30 HP to down. DM seems to crit a lot on AC 18 for advanced fights. The rogue wants to flank with me but has focused into thievery and has not taken the dodge reaction yet.
Regarding your next post we did get the bonus stats at creation. I tried to go for a rounded ability score spread STR/Dex/Con/Cha 14, Wis 12, Int 10.
I will agree some of our party may be locked into the 1E mindset of just face tanking/self-buffing and not moving. My last character was a 1E inquisitor that just smoked mobs in combat once buffed up.
Regarding your next post we did get the bonus stats at creation. I tried to go for a rounded ability score spread STR/Dex/Con/Cha 14, Wis 12, Int 10.
Oof! Those stats are rough. In this thread we've talked about every little +1 or -1 being helpful, so you're at a disadvantage with an even spread here. I made a quick mock-up using voluntary flaws and got Str 18/Dex 12/Con 16/Int 8/Wis 10/Cha 12.
This way you have access to two "triage heals," and you're hitting the Dex cap for Breastplate. You also end up with +4 to attacks, which (I'm assuming) is what you really want to be doing. A low Wisdom doesn't hurt the warpriest since your spells are more likely going to be buffs. You aren't getting bonus spells via high Wisdom any longer.
But really it seems to come down to your party. You should have an out of combat healer (it could be the champion with lay on hands or the bard/rogue with Medicine) and your heals are just the mid-combat ones. You built a melee and battle focused cleric, your party should help you enable that!
Using a turn to cast bless before wading in is quite helpful, as is spending your third action for a guidance on someone. Forbidding ward is also helpful against more difficult "boss" encounters. Don't forget to sustain it, though. And finally, you can always just trip or grapple opponents (especially if you have a high Str now), and your rogue will love you.
I don't think he's a Cloistered Cleric (wearing armor), if he's Warpriest he really should wear Medium armor with that DEX, he's giving up 1 AC by wearing Light Chain Shirt. I thought he was doing that because he didn't meet STR rating to avoid penalties (which can actually be tolerable especially with Chain), but 14 STR is fine for Hide and Scale Mail, so no reason why not. He really should have 16 STR anyways which he can do by having less DEX which isn't actually helping his AC given the alternative armors. If the trade-off is 16 STR for attacks vs 14 STR with higher DEX but same net AC, I'd probably go 16 STR (even if you keep raising DEX later for ranged/Reflex/Acrobatics/Stealth).
A 1H weapon to use with Shield is legitimate to consider... And even Gorum Warpriests can use 1H weapons too: they get Martial at 3rd so they aren't limited to just Favored Weapon (Martial doesn't scale to Expert at later levels, although I think that's Errata fodder, but certainly consider using it at low levels). Depending on Ancestry (?) you could even get weapon proficiency earlier (General/Ancestral) and retrain it to something else useful when you get Martial Weapons at 3rd level. If you are using Shield, consider it's value as a weapon: mediocre damage even with Spikes/Boss but it lets you cover extra damage type, so good to use VS appropriate enemies.
Regardless, even if wielding a Greatsword or other 2H weapon, remember Shield spell. Or even consider wearing a Buckler, if you don't have Shield cantrip or even if you do (for when Shield gets destroyed for 10 minutes). Like Shield spell, Buckler is less AC than normal Shield (1 vs 2) but it's just Light bulk, so it gives you an OPTION to regrip weapon to free up hand (Free Action) and Raise Shield when you could use some AC help, even if it needs extra action to regrip 2H weapon to attack with it. Might as well work everything you got. Light bulk is cheap price for another option.
WIS/CHA govern Saves and Font respectively, you can focus on either one but with Warpriest DCs will always lag. Still can be viable with AoEs targetting multiple enemies, and spells with decent effect on Success vs Save. Those spells might have minor value if you ignore WIS to focus on CHA, but CHA is more about Font heals and not offensive attack/save spells (although indirect stuff like Summons work just as well without high WIS). If you are warpriest focusing on STR/CON, you really have choice of boosting DEX and one of WIS/CHA... OR neglecting DEX to boost BOTH WIS/CHA (probably WIS>CHA to have best possible DC for Warpriest). I'd probably say neglecting WIS is an easier route to Warpriest, and boosting DEX has multiple benefits... Although once you hit 18s in other stats like CON/DEX/CHA (when further boosts become less efficient) you might want to boost WIS for Will Saves/Perception/Skills.
I play the battle cleric of Gorum. I have an AC 18 (level 2 + trained + chain shirt + 2 DEX) and 30 HPs (human + lvl 2 Cleric + 2 Con + toughness) and keep getting dropped in a round from 2 attacks (Maybe the DM's dice are just hot the last few sessions).
In my Plaguestone, I have a Redeemer of Shelyn, which means she is using a glaive, so no shield either. She's in the same boat as your Cleric, AC 18 and HP 30. An average level 3 monster (harder encounter) has a +11 to hit, meaning they are going to hit on a 7 or less, and crit on a 17. It's going to do about d10+5 damage (with obvious wide range). This averages 10 per hit.
Yeah, that first attack is going to hit you. Not much to be done, but biggest thing is not stand next to the monster. A Melee round should be , Strike>Strike>Stride (or step). Yes you are only getting one hit in each round but it will help to keep the monster from getting three attacks on you too.
Considering the actual knowledge about gishes in PF2, I would not annoy someone who plays a Warpriest explaining him how to build it. There's no validated Warpriest build right now.
Also, you can't put an 18 in Strength on a Warpriest at first level, their main attribute is Wisdom.
Considering the actual knowledge about gishes in PF2, I would not annoy someone who plays a Warpriest explaining him how to build it. There's no validated Warpriest build right now.
Also, you can't put an 18 in Strength on a Warpriest at first level, their main attribute is Wisdom.
I mean, I don't ever mean to say that there is "one true build," but if someone is asking for advice, I feel like that's fair game. You're right about the 18, as I used Pathbuilder to mock-up the stats and it doesn't differentiate voluntary flaws (and the associated boost) and ancestry ability boosts.
I mean, I don't ever mean to say that there is "one true build," but if someone is asking for advice, I feel like that's fair game.
You kind of contradict yourself:
Oof! Those stats are rough.
What I mean is that, right now, not many people can be damn sure that a Strength based Warpriest is anywhere close to efficient. If you were already playing a Warpriest from level 1 to close to 10, you could speak about it. But I think you're theorycrafting with not much personal experience. So, it's ok, but don't start by saying that the stats are rough. Start by saying that you never played a Warpriest and that you would build it very differently :)
No offense, I hope.
Hey, I am trying my best to help.
Yes, clearly. I was not answering to you specifically in my first message. It was more a way to tell Hamanu that all advice on the Warpriest had to be taken with caution. Right now, on these forums, I've seen many people complaining about the efficiency of Strength based Warpriests. So, they may just not work (or not in a classical way).
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In my opinion, one thing people haven't tested much in PF2 are multi character combos. In PF1, it was roughly impossible. But in PF2, it can be absolutely atrocious. So, many people build their character so they can work alone. But if you build the groupe with member synergies, I think you can get to far higher efficiency.
The classical example is Demoralize. If you have, say, a Bard with full on Intimidation, he can Demoralize enemies like crazy. At first, it's not awesome, nice, but not awesome. But if your Rogue is a Dread Stricker, now you also give him Flat-Footed bonus. If your Fighter has Fearsome Brute, it's even better.
Another example is Synesthesia or Distracting Feint with a Trip Fighter and/or a blaster caster.
In my opinion, if you have a stable party (not PFS), you can make up such types of combos and use them as your bread and butter tactics. We have to stop thinking about our characters alone when building them, we need to think about character combos to get the best out of them.
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In my opinion, one thing people haven't tested much in PF2 are multi character combos. In PF1, it was roughly impossible. But in PF2, it can be absolutely atrocious. So, many people build their character so they can work alone. But if you build the groupe with member synergies, I think you can get to far higher efficiency.
The classical example is Demoralize. If you have, say, a Bard with full on Intimidation, he can Demoralize enemies like crazy. At first, it's not awesome, nice, but not awesome. But if your Rogue is a Dread Stricker, now you also give him Flat-Footed bonus. If your Fighter has Fearsome Brute, it's even better.
Another example is Synesthesia or Distracting Feint with a Trip Fighter and/or a blaster caster.
In my opinion, if you have a stable party (not PFS), you can make up such types of combos and use them as your bread and butter tactics. We have to stop thinking about our characters alone when building them, we need to think about character combos to get the best out of them.
PF2 is definitely built with a "you need each other" philosophy.
* Getting a good coverage on all skills requires people with good mental attributes - all of them.
* In addition, getting good skill coverage with Expert/Master/Legendary skills requires people choosing different skills to push up in training as they get the opportunity. At level 3, a fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue party could have 5 Expert skills, you'd like all of them to be covering different bases.
* Many classes have feats to exploit a situation (Rogues with Dread Striker/Frightened enemies) that another class is much better at causing (Fighter with Intimidating Strike, Dragon style monk).
* Flat-footed is particularly easy to cause through teamwork, and causes a real hike in chances of causing critical hits.
This also has consequences for how you build characters. If you're building a party for a campaign together, it's really nice if you can divide the jobs and everyone makes sure to be good at their job. So a "balanced" stat array definitely has a 16 or 18 in it.
In fact, I'll even raise another question:
Is it better to Strike Strike or Trip Strike?
If you think only about yourself, clearly, you Strike Strike, as losing your first attack to perform a Trip would be a very bad idea for your own DPR.
But inside a party...
I think it would even ask for a specific subject, as I think it's a very valid and important question: When is it better to maximize your own efficiency and when it's better to set up kills for your allies?
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In fact, I'll even raise another question:
Is it better to Strike Strike or Trip Strike?If you think only about yourself, clearly, you Strike Strike, as losing your first attack to perform a Trip would be a very bad idea for your own DPR.
But inside a party...I think it would even ask for a specific subject, as I think it's a very valid and important question: When is it better to maximize your own efficiency and when it's better to set up kills for your allies?
My newer group is learning this atm, some players more than others but everyone is seeing that as their tactics change/evolve the combats that were deadly and having most of the party at risk are now becoming quite reasonable.
Team work goes a heck of a long way, playing like 4-6 solo players who all just do their own thing regardless... Well that is how parties struggle.
One thing I've noticed in all of the discussion about the difficulty of Pathfinder 2 is that a lot of parties that have a hard time don't have a cleric with healing font.
This. So much this. I really don't think it's that hard, but folks still think that Battle Medicine is going to carry the day for them. Want out of Hard Mode? Get a cleric with the healing font.
One thing I've noticed in all of the discussion about the difficulty of Pathfinder 2 is that a lot of parties that have a hard time don't have a cleric with healing font.This. So much this. I really don't think it's that hard, but folks still think that Battle Medicine is going to carry the day for them. Want out of Hard Mode? Get a cleric with the healing font.
Or in the case of my party of 3; make sure at least one of the players can use Treat Wounds; and potions wouldn’t hurt.