Fighter feat : Improved knockdown


Rules Discussion


I need precision about the fighter feat 'improved knockdown'.

Knockdown, the initial version, takes 2 actions and counts for attack penalty.

Improved knockdown is written with "with a single blow" and "a single Strike" in his description.

So, for improved knockdown:

1) do you need 1 or 2 action(s) to use it ?
2) does it count as 1 or 2 attack(s) for penalty attack ?

The feats below:

Knockdown

Two Actions
Feat 4
Traits: Fighter, Flourish
Prerequisites: trained in Athletics
Source: Fighter (Class Feats), user-added

You make an attack to knock a foe off balance, then follow up immediately with a sweep to topple them. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Trip the creature you hit. If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.

Improved Knockdown

You can dash your foe to the ground with a single blow. When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, you can attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. If you used a two-handed melee weapon for the Strike, you can use the weapon’s damage die size instead of the regular die size for the damage from a critical Trip.


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Improved Knockdown doesn't do anything to change the action cost of Knockdown - compare to Power Attack, which is also a singular strike that takes two actions.

The advantage of Improved Knockdown is that it condenses two rolls into one (meaning you have half as many chances to roll poorly) and that a success on the attack roll automatically translates into a critical success on the trip maneuver. Which is... actually very good.


Actually I read it like this:

Looking at the word - Instead - with a comer (,) just before it that means its specifically referencing Knockdown - Instead (Change or Replace) - of making a Strike followed by a Trip (describing Knockdown @ L4) - Attempt a Single (1) Strike. (full stop) that's 1 action. Then it goes onto describe the affect if your Strike hits - you also apply the critical success of a trip. Plus a bit of love if your using a 2H weapon.

So this L10 feat changes and supersedes the L4 feat.

They should have just given it an Action marker and moved on but here we are trying to read the tea-leafs :)

Cheers

Improved Knockdown Feat 10
Fighter
Source Core Rulebook pg. 151
Prerequisites Knockdown

You can dash your foe to the ground with a single blow. When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, you can attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. If you used a two-handed melee weapon for the Strike, you can use the weapon’s damage die size instead of the regular die size for the damage from a critical Trip.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The actions that comprise an activity do not have to add up to the activity cost. Unless an activities actions are explicitly changed, changing the composite action does not change the activity cost.


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Miy2Cents wrote:


They should have just given it an Action marker and moved on but here we are trying to read the tea-leafs :)

They didn't give it an action marker because the action cost is not being modified. It's two actions for one Strike, like Power Attack.


BellyBeard wrote:
Miy2Cents wrote:


They should have just given it an Action marker and moved on but here we are trying to read the tea-leafs :)
They didn't give it an action marker because the action cost is not being modified. It's two actions for one Strike, like Power Attack.

And just like Power Attack, the advantage of taking the second feat is to reduce one's MAP on your 3rd action, likely one of those great 1-action Presses that Fighters have, against a foe now prone.

Then if they stand, there's the AoO w/ zero MAP.

Essentially, you're using your 3-Actions & Reaction to get two Strikes w/ zero MAP and a Press, which can be two Strikes, a Strike/Disarm, or just certain damage.


Malk_Content wrote:
The actions that comprise an activity do not have to add up to the activity cost. Unless an activities actions are explicitly changed, changing the composite action does not change the activity cost.

So explicitly? (like say printed in the feat)- Attempt a Single Strike. Kind of reads 1 action to me.

Could you point to the page in the rules were it reads - changing the composite action does not change the activity cost?


So you just need to hit and get a free trip?? This is kind of extremely strong. Power attack on lvl 10 has just one weapon damage dice more.

Can I trip everything with this large, giant, colossal creatures?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Page 461 is where composite activities are stated to not be tied to the action cost of their subordinate actions:

"An activity typically involves using multiple actions to create an effect greater than you can produce with a single action, or combining multiple single actions to produce an effect that’s different from merely the sum of those actions. In some cases, usually when spellcasting, an activity can consist of only 1 action, 1 reaction, or even 1 free action. An activity might cause you to use specific actions within it. You don’t have to spend additional actions to perform them—they’re already factored into the activity’s required actions. (See Subordinate Actions on page 462.)You have to spend all the actions of an activity at once to gain its effects. In an encounter, this means you must complete it during your turn. If an activity gets interrupted or disrupted in an encounter (page 462), you lose all the actions you committed to it."

A minor note regarding puksone's post: at level 10, power attack adds 2 weapon dice, not 1.


Jeah, sorry meant one extra dice to the normal power attack dice.


The feat says it applies "when you use Knockdown". It can't have its own 2-action marker, because those (usually?) indicate the feat is giving a new unique action and this one is not. That would make Improved Knockdown a completely separate action from Knockdown, and it isn't. It is only modifying how you use the 2-action Knockdown activity.


Reading the two feats I don't see anything unclear.

Knockdown is good, and improved Knockdown is definitely good.


Ok lets pull it apart then - This is a L10 feat that supersedes and improves on the L4 feat. Note Specific beats General.

Also note there is no mention of a change to Knockdowns Traits so Flourish does not change.

Improved Knockdown Feat 10
Fighter
Prerequisites Knockdown

You can dash your foe to the ground with a single blow. When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, you can attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. If you used a two-handed melee weapon for the Strike, you can use the weapon’s damage die size instead of the regular die size for the damage from a critical Trip.

Here we go:
Dash foe to the ground with a SINGLE Blow. (now 1 Action)

When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, (Describing the 2 Actions in Knockdown @ L4) you can attempt a single Strike (Changing the number of Actions to 1 and reinforcing the 1st line above).

If you do and your Strike hits (1 Action), you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. (repeating this is a Single strike, but also saying that you APPLY the critical success effect - So NO 2nd roll you just APPLY the effect)

Then more about two-handed weapons but that's not in discussion.

The wording as it stands looks clear to me.


Miy2Cents wrote:
...When you use Knockdown...

This is the part that matters.

I think you're reading too much into the description. Knockdown is two actions. Improved knockdown just makes Knockdown better, but you're still using the 2 action Knockdown ability whether it's regular or improved.


Miy2Cents wrote:

Ok lets pull it apart then - This is a L10 feat that supersedes and improves on the L4 feat. Note Specific beats General.

Also note there is no mention of a change to Knockdowns Traits so Flourish does not change.

Improved Knockdown Feat 10
Fighter
Prerequisites Knockdown

You can dash your foe to the ground with a single blow. When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, you can attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. If you used a two-handed melee weapon for the Strike, you can use the weapon’s damage die size instead of the regular die size for the damage from a critical Trip.

Here we go:
Dash foe to the ground with a SINGLE Blow. (now 1 Action)

When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, (Describing the 2 Actions in Knockdown @ L4) you can attempt a single Strike (Changing the number of Actions to 1 and reinforcing the 1st line above).

If you do and your Strike hits (1 Action), you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. (repeating this is a Single strike, but also saying that you APPLY the critical success effect - So NO 2nd roll you just APPLY the effect)

Then more about two-handed weapons but that's not in discussion.

The wording as it stands looks clear to me.

The feat is clear and doesn't even need an errata.

You simply enhance another feat.
You add another line to an existed feat.

2 action requirement remains.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Put it this way, if options worked like how you think they, almost all action economy changing activities wouldn't work. Metamagics like Silent Spell would be used every round etc


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Miy2Cents wrote:

Ok lets pull it apart then - This is a L10 feat that supersedes and improves on the L4 feat. Note Specific beats General.

Also note there is no mention of a change to Knockdowns Traits so Flourish does not change.

Improved Knockdown Feat 10
Fighter
Prerequisites Knockdown

You can dash your foe to the ground with a single blow. When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, you can attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. If you used a two-handed melee weapon for the Strike, you can use the weapon’s damage die size instead of the regular die size for the damage from a critical Trip.

Here we go:
Dash foe to the ground with a SINGLE Blow. (now 1 Action)

When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, (Describing the 2 Actions in Knockdown @ L4) you can attempt a single Strike (Changing the number of Actions to 1 and reinforcing the 1st line above).

If you do and your Strike hits (1 Action), you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. (repeating this is a Single strike, but also saying that you APPLY the critical success effect - So NO 2nd roll you just APPLY the effect)

Then more about two-handed weapons but that's not in discussion.

The wording as it stands looks clear to me.

None of this is right. The action cost of a feat activity is defined as part of the feat, not calculated by counting subordinate actions, or the number of dice rolled.


Miy2Cents wrote:


Here we go:
Dash foe to the ground with a SINGLE Blow. (now 1 Action)

No. A single blow is not guaranteed to be 1 action. If you would look at things like Power Attack, Intimidating Strike, Felling Strike just for the fighter or Channel Smite or Blade of Justice from other classes it's clear that this "rule" is just made up.

Miy2Cents wrote:


When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, (Describing the 2 Actions in Knockdown @ L4) you can attempt a single Strike (Changing the number of Actions to 1 and reinforcing the 1st line above).

You still use Knockdown, which still has its 2-action cost. All that changes is how Knockdown works internally.

PF2's special moves granted by feats sometimes include basic actions but have added effects, Knockdown is far from the only one there.
Don't try to "calculate" the action cost of the feat yourself from its parts... the action cost is already given: 2 actions for using Knockdown.


The change is in the description of the L10 feat - In this case it describes Knockdown @L4 (yep 2 Actions everything), then says the word INSTEAD followed by how it changes to become Advanced Knockdown, there is NO second action in Adv Knockdown only the one strike. The description explains how the change works, if you have to go to another section of the book to interpret a self contained feat whats the point of having the explanation of how the feat works?

Its not a stand alone feat that does X, I expect it to be better as it take 2 feats to use, and one of them is @ L10.

Dash foe to the ground with a SINGLE Blow. (now 1 Action) - That's what Adv Knockdown does now - a SINGLE Blow.

When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, (Describing the 2 Actions in Knockdown @ L4) you can attempt a single Strike (Changing the number of Actions to 1 and reinforcing the 1st line above).

If you do and your Strike hits (still only referencing 1 Action), you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip. (repeating this is a Single strike, but also saying that you APPLY the critical success effect - There is NO 2nd roll you just APPLY the effect).

I'm sure PF 2.5 will reword this but as it stands, you pick a feat based on what is says it does and that's spelled out clearly here.

If somebody finds an actual Designer to rule on this please link it here - Otherwise all of this is just our opinions (mine included). At the end of the day when you GM, play it how you think it should be this is just a game after all.


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It doesn't state anywhere that you use a single action instead of 2.

Here is how a feat which modifies the number of actions is explained

Quote:

PFS Legal Quick JumpFeat 1

GeneralSkill
Source Core Rulebook pg. 264
Prerequisites trained in Athletics
You can use High Jump and Long Jump as a single action instead of 2 actions. If you do, you don’t perform the initial Stride (nor do you fail if you don’t Stride 10 feet).

Improved Knockdown doesn't work the way you think.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Lets attack this from another angle. Is a feat that gives you 6 actions worth of stuff every turn at no penalty and over an effective +10 on half of those actions stronger than equivalent feats? Yes, massively so. So we can refer to the section on rules ambiguities, if something is too good to be true, it probably is.


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Miy2Cents wrote:
...When you use Knockdown...

Still the most important part. You're still using Knockdown, and Knockdown is 2 actions.

I think the confusion here is that regular Knockdown acts like those other multi-attack feats where you make 2 strikes, rolled separately, but MAP doesn't apply until after both, so you get your second attack with no penalty, and a third regular strike would be -10 or whatever. So with Knockdown you get to do your Trip action at the same time as the strike and you don't take MAP on it.

Improved Knockdown just states that, when you use Knockdown, instead of rolling a Strike and then rolling a Trip, you just roll a Strike, and if it hits you apply the critical Trip automatically.

No where does it state that it reduces the Action cost of Knockdown. The Strike performed is part of Knockdown, not a separate action.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A developer comment isn't needed to clarify that the action cost of feat activities are not calculated from the number of actions contained inside. That rule is already in the book. And in this thread.


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This is like arguing that Quick Draw is too actions.


Its in the Description of the Feat -

When you use Knockdown, instead of making a Strike followed by a Trip, (Describing the 2 Actions in Knockdown @ L4) you can attempt a single Strike - Changing the number of Actions to 1 and reinforcing the previous line of "with a single blow".

So here it says how Knockdown works, followed by the word "instead" , changing Knockdown to making a SINGLE strike (a Strike being 1 action), as it does not mention changing the Trait "Flourish" then this strike can only ever happen once a round.

To achieve this ability you need to spend 2 feats, i expect it to be better than the L4 feat.


Miy2Cents wrote:
(Describing the 2 Actions in Knockdown @ L4)

I think what you're failing to realize is that statement is not true.


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Miy2Cents wrote:

So here it says how Knockdown works, followed by the word "instead" , changing Knockdown to making a SINGLE strike (a Strike being 1 action), as it does not mention changing the Trait "Flourish" then this strike can only ever happen once a round.

To achieve this ability you need to spend 2 feats, i expect it to be better than the L4 feat.

Why would it change the action requirements but not the flourish trait? Improved Knockdown doesn't have flourish and neither does the derivate action Strike, since we're deriving stuff about Improved Knockdown from a base Strike, so it must not have flourish either. Or else, how are you determining what to derive from Strike and what you take from the base Knockdown activity?

You haven't yet responded to all the examples of activities which have action costs that are different from the derivative actions, like Power Attack or Quick Draw. A single blow does not imply a single action, which is really what your entire argument hinges on. You just keep repeating the exact same thing.

The two actions Improved Knockdown is better than the L4 Knockdown feat, for reasons that have been outlined numerous times upthread. Base Knockdown essentially requires two attacks to hit, one for the initial attack and one for the trip, which is two chances to roll low and not get a trip. Improved Knockdown only requires one roll, and turns the trip part into an auto crit success, which is quite a bit better.


Yeah, apart from trying to interpretate the reading instead on focusing on the facts

- it does not state anything it changes from 2 actions to 1 actions

And

- examples where a modified skill in terms of actions is explained ( the description states "it requires 1 action instead of 2" )

I think he doesn't see the real advantage of improved Knockdown

1st - a single check instead of 2

2nd - higher modifier since the fighter has higher weapon proficiency ( you could maybe get a draw if you invest into athletics by investing specific items ). See also the next point

3rd - no athletics requirement ( you could just maintain trained and invest somewhere else if you want )

4th - critical trip success on a hit success.

The advantages are clear, and the enhancing feat is totally worth it.


"A single blow does not imply a single action," Well I kind of think that's the whole point, that it actually does do what it states in the feat.

If you have to use other feats to interpret a description, instead of the description standing on its own merit, then why have a description at all? - But if you insist on looking outside of the actual feat description then how about this:

Brutish Shove - If you hit a target that is your size or smaller, that creature is flat-footed until the end of your current turn, and you can automatically Shove it, with the same benefits as the Shove action (including the critical success effect, if your Strike was a critical hit).

Here you have a 1 action feat that does Three things - on hit Damage, Flat footed and the "same benefits" as Shove (the Shove being 5 ft on a hit and 10 ft on a critical hit). - Sounds a bit like "attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip" to me.

So here show you 1 action can do 3 things, and its only a L2 feat.

Improved Knockdown - "attempt a single Strike", its 1 Action.


Rules elements which modify other rules elements should not be expected to repeat all of the unmodified information of the modified rules element.

It's a waste of space, and it wouldn't actually make for less confusion, just different confusion (instead of someone thinking the number of actions is changed when it doesn't clearly say it changes the number of actions, someone would think the number of actions were added together because it mentions 2 actions in both feats and doesn't say they don't add together).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Miy2Cents wrote:

"A single blow does not imply a single action," Well I kind of think that's the whole point, that it actually does do what it states in the feat.

If you have to use other feats to interpret a description, instead of the description standing on its own merit, then why have a description at all? - But if you insist on looking outside of the actual feat description then how about this:

Brutish Shove - If you hit a target that is your size or smaller, that creature is flat-footed until the end of your current turn, and you can automatically Shove it, with the same benefits as the Shove action (including the critical success effect, if your Strike was a critical hit).

Here you have a 1 action feat that does Three things - on hit Damage, Flat footed and the "same benefits" as Shove (the Shove being 5 ft on a hit and 10 ft on a critical hit). - Sounds a bit like "attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip" to me.

So here show you 1 action can do 3 things, and its only a L2 feat.

Improved Knockdown - "attempt a single Strike", its 1 Action.

It's not 1 action, it's two. Nothing indicates it is one action, it's just changed to be one roll.


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Miy2Cents wrote:

"A single blow does not imply a single action," Well I kind of think that's the whole point, that it actually does do what it states in the feat.

If you have to use other feats to interpret a description, instead of the description standing on its own merit, then why have a description at all? - But if you insist on looking outside of the actual feat description then how about this:

Brutish Shove - If you hit a target that is your size or smaller, that creature is flat-footed until the end of your current turn, and you can automatically Shove it, with the same benefits as the Shove action (including the critical success effect, if your Strike was a critical hit).

Here you have a 1 action feat that does Three things - on hit Damage, Flat footed and the "same benefits" as Shove (the Shove being 5 ft on a hit and 10 ft on a critical hit). - Sounds a bit like "attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip" to me.

So here show you 1 action can do 3 things, and its only a L2 feat.

Improved Knockdown - "attempt a single Strike", its 1 Action.

Brutish Shove requires your size or smaller, and is a Press attack. Similarly, the flat-footed it imparts only applies to attacks you make, which is really likely to only be 1 more attack at best.

Knockdown is not, and gives a lot more benefits.

If actions worked as you think they do, Flurry of Blows would do nothing. Hunted Shot would do nothing. Power Attack would break.


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And Brutish Shove is marked as one action, and Improved Knockdown is not. Funny how that works.


Cyouni wrote:
Miy2Cents wrote:

"A single blow does not imply a single action," Well I kind of think that's the whole point, that it actually does do what it states in the feat.

If you have to use other feats to interpret a description, instead of the description standing on its own merit, then why have a description at all? - But if you insist on looking outside of the actual feat description then how about this:

Brutish Shove - If you hit a target that is your size or smaller, that creature is flat-footed until the end of your current turn, and you can automatically Shove it, with the same benefits as the Shove action (including the critical success effect, if your Strike was a critical hit).

Here you have a 1 action feat that does Three things - on hit Damage, Flat footed and the "same benefits" as Shove (the Shove being 5 ft on a hit and 10 ft on a critical hit). - Sounds a bit like "attempt a single Strike. If you do and your Strike hits, you also apply the critical success effect of a Trip" to me.

So here show you 1 action can do 3 things, and its only a L2 feat.

Improved Knockdown - "attempt a single Strike", its 1 Action.

Brutish Shove requires your size or smaller, and is a Press attack. Similarly, the flat-footed it imparts only applies to attacks you make, which is really likely to only be 1 more attack at best.

Knockdown is not, and gives a lot more benefits.

If actions worked as you think they do, Flurry of Blows would do nothing. Hunted Shot would do nothing. Power Attack would break.

This. You can also add Sudden Charge to the do nothing pile. But Power Attack is a perfect example of a single blow taking two actions.


I mean, the feat is extremely good for 2 actions. It doesn't have flourish or press. It would be totally overpowered for one action.


Free auto-crit trips on every attack for two feats is too good? Crazy talk.


For one action? Yes, would be too good.


Sorry, I was agreeing with you through sarcasm. I understand that doesn't always come across in text though.


There is an old exercise school teachers were(maybe still are?) given at Uni - Write a step by step guide for making a paper plane from 1 A4 sheet of paper. Then have a class room full of school kids try to follow the instructions. If the steps are not clear enough for all the kids to follow, then you need to look at the logic and wording to see were they go wrong. When I read the feat I see it one way, when you read the feat you see another, so the feat is unclear/misleading to the point where we will have to agree to disagree.

Who knows maybe a Designer will step up and lay it out for clarity. Or we can wait for PF 2.5

Cheers all :)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Having been through said exercise, if 95% of kids do it fine the instructions are probably fine and you should just look at those few children who struggle.


Coming in as a teacher to repeat with Malk is saying. The issue isn't with the rules, it's with how they're being interpreted by a very small percentage of people. This thread isn't a good sample size, but it should illustrate how many other people are not confused by the rules of the feat.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It's like the people trying to argue that simple crossbow needs errata. Most people reading that parse it fine as "crossbow in the simple category" while for some reason others think it must be a typo referring to a crossbow that doesn't exist.


Miy2Cents wrote:
There is an old exercise school teachers were(maybe still are?) given at Uni - Write a step by step guide for making a paper plane from 1 A4 sheet of paper.

Peanut butter sandwich is a better exercise.

You get to eat it when you're done (hopefully).

I had to do this in about 5th grade. The people following the instructions were the parents. One kid got to tell his father "put lip on table." Whereupon the dad had to finish trying to make a sandwich without putting down the lid for the one jar and bent over in half with his face on the desk.

(Being the early blooming programmer I was, my instructions covered both half and full size sandwiches)

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