Goblins in PF2nd


Prerelease Discussion

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John Lynch 106 wrote:

I'm concerned that they'll gut the Goblin flavour that makes them so popular in order to make them integrate into a party of adventurers. I'm also concerned that certain personality types will be drawn to the goblin and will probably just ban goblins if I have any of those players at my table.

On the other hand I really hope none of the Golarion flavour is integrated into the goblin mechanics so that I can just use the goblin race in an Eberron game (which I'm tempted to try to run if PF 2nd ed turns out how I expect it to).

Well, I'm not overly concerned with goblin flavour getting gutted, even more because I'm not into Pathfinder goblins in either lore or looks, and I'll probably have to adapt the ancestry for my own needs like I did with 1ed goblin. To me goblins should be underground scavengers, tinkers, and slavers with sunlight sensibility, I like the Tolkien flavour of goblins. And I think it's remarkable how I like Pathfinder goblins and trolls when Wayne Reynolds draws them but hate them when any other artist draws them, even the best artists.

For the player thing, well diruptive people can do as much damage with gnomes as with goblins, I think Erik was the one who said that, and I have to agree.


NetoD20 wrote:
and for places where they wouldn't be openly accepted I think that that just makes roleplay more interesting if a goblin is forced to hide or something.

Unless of course the entire campaign takes place in a place (or places) like that. Really takes a fair bit of the fun out of it if every time you have to go back to town for any reason you now get to sit out and not participate because the townsfolk will try to kill you. Especially when you're playing a Core race, something that in most cases would be expected to be a race that would be generally accepted.


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I've seen people playing tieflings that look like demons, and even some that almost behave like them. I'm not sure a goblin is anything harder.


Shinigami02 wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:
and for places where they wouldn't be openly accepted I think that that just makes roleplay more interesting if a goblin is forced to hide or something.
Unless of course the entire campaign takes place in a place (or places) like that. Really takes a fair bit of the fun out of it if every time you have to go back to town for any reason you now get to sit out and not participate because the townsfolk will try to kill you. Especially when you're playing a Core race, something that in most cases would be expected to be a race that would be generally accepted.

Except that that would depend on what setting are you using. Also, the player could easily use disguise kits or magic, and thus would not need to sit out. The fear of being discovered? that's part of the fun. It's like being a half-orc or half-elf, you're gonna suffer prejudice due to your ancestry in various places, and that's just another facet of play, roll with it. Otherwise don't play a goblin, certainly a goblin player will be aware of these matters before choosing, just like a half-elf player knows he's gonna get mud from elves and half-orc players know they're gonna get mud from almost everyone. Also, the goblin iconic in the podcast adventure seemed to be treated pretty normally in the village setting, even had a short background that made sense: his parents settled there, people already knew them and knew that those goblins were harmless. Sure that must've gotten mud from people leaving there, but nothing that impedes play.


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NetoD20 wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:
and for places where they wouldn't be openly accepted I think that that just makes roleplay more interesting if a goblin is forced to hide or something.
Unless of course the entire campaign takes place in a place (or places) like that. Really takes a fair bit of the fun out of it if every time you have to go back to town for any reason you now get to sit out and not participate because the townsfolk will try to kill you. Especially when you're playing a Core race, something that in most cases would be expected to be a race that would be generally accepted.
Except that that would depend on what setting are you using. Also, the player could easily use disguise kits or magic, and thus would not need to sit out. The fear of being discovered? that's part of the fun. It's like being a half-orc or half-elf, you're gonna suffer prejudice due to your ancestry in various places, and that's just another facet of play, roll with it.

The problem with this is that, unless something radically changes in Golarion during the year 4718, that 'prejudice' (found basically everywhere) tends to amount, "Oh, a goblin? Better kill it before we get infested" Most all of Goblin lore on Golarion amounts to an extent to the fact they are seen as horrible little pests that need to be exterminated with maximum effectiveness by the first passing group of adventurers. Non-evil half-orcs are at least present enough in the world to where the default assumption isn't "Oh boy, better call the exterminator" the moment one shows up in town.

I mean, if your adventuring party came across a half-orc town in the wilderness, they would likely approach it like any other town- go in, find the tavern, sell off loot, rest overnight, look for the mysterious old quest-giver, and move on. A goblin home?
"Okay, Grarr, you circle around back. The moment Althuain unleashes his fireball, you charge in and take down the chieftain. Eldra, you shoot any goblins still standing, and I'll cast flame strike on any of the buggers left standing. Everyone clear on the plan? Good. Break."


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NetoD20 wrote:


Well, the book is not just for those who use Golarion, and I saw a surprisingly high number of people asking for a more setting-agnostic approach to the Core Rulebook (myself included). Don't want them? Don't need to use them. Sometimes I think people create these setting/roleplaying barriers that really didn't need to be there. As the very developers said, goblins have no impediments to transit in places like Absalon, and for places where they wouldn't be openly accepted I think that that just makes roleplay more interesting if a goblin is forced to hide or something.

I'm not saying they should not have Goblins as a option. I'm all for it. Except the way they are written in Golarion they would not be welcome in most places and neither would they welcome outsiders. Are written as a bunch of sociopathic, psychotic, afraid of the written word, pyromaniacs that don't play well with others. It's all well and good to say that Goblin have no issues as PCs. It's also the dev ignoring the own lore they created and quite frankly taking way too easy of a way out by ignoring it.

It's like all Drow suddenly being welcome across Faerun with open arm The WOTC could say the exact same thing like the Paizo devs did it still looks weird as a choice for core and goes against what the majority of the race are described as.

gustavo iglesias wrote:
I've seen people playing tieflings that look like demons, and even some that almost behave like them. I'm not sure a goblin is anything harder.

True yet Tieflings while stigmatized are not portrayed as sociopathic, psychotic, afraid the written word, pyromaniacs.

It's as if some here act like the crazy insane word hating goblins are the exception not the rule when it's the opposite the sane, hope well adjusted normal goblin are the exception the rule and likely to be killed off for well being too normal and civilized by other goblins.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

To my mind, PF goblins are a dumb, funny once joke, and space wasted on them in the PF2e core book could be better spent on virtually anything else. However, I am certain that there will be goblins as a core race in PF2e, so I’m just going to have to lump it.


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Ser Guii de Facien wrote:
...wonders if being raised in a niche fundamentalist extremist home would be a fair Ancestry for a goblin.

{suddenly interested} Does this Ancestry involve burning infidels and heretics? And non-believers? And believers who believe a little too strongly or not quite enough? And books? And doges? And horsies? And orangutans and breakfast cereals and mangoes and shovels and møøses and...


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If goblins started moving up in society that would explain how they got into space.


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I imagine the first goblins got into space by building really big flamethrowers -- like Atlas V or Falcon 9 big -- and then discovering Newton's Third Law followed shortly thereafter with discovering that they aren't Batman.


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I think it's great they're in there - I'd throw in Kobolds, Tengus & Grippli too. Kick out Dwarves if they need to make room.


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I've been a goblin in a campaign. No, it was not a disruptive character. Garri was a goblin cleric of Sarenrae. He loved fire, and wanted more than anything else to be good. He was built to use the fire domain, and to fight with Dervish Dance. He became good when his tribe abandoned him, and a priest of Sarenrae took him in. Her focus on redemption and fire just made the whole character come together.

Shadow Lodge

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graeme mcdougall wrote:
I think it's great they're in there - I'd throw in Kobolds, Tengus & Grippli too. Kick out Dwarves if they need to make room.

Nah, keep Dwarves, kick Half-Orcs.


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I feel like we're missing that the plan is for every class and race option in PF1 to be available in some analogous form in PF2. Since if there's a tengu magus in some PF1 module that you are converting it's helpful to have a tengu and a magus to refer to. Only issue is the order in which things are printed.

Silver Crusade

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For the record, this is a terrible idea. I've had three goblin PCs, and two of them were a&+&+@$s about it.

"What do you mean I can't be a good character while killing all of my enemies without mercy? That's just how goblins are!"

"What do you mean stealing from this major NPC is a dick thing to do because it risks failure for the whole party just to get me a few extra GP? Goblins do that kind of thing!"

"What do you mean I'm not allowed to steal from the party? You're so unfairly restrictive! It's what my character would do!"

"It's what my character would do!"

"Į̟͇̣T͓̠͇͇͖̩̤'̦͙͕̙̳͘S̖̺̫͈̲ͅ ̨͓̪͇̻͍̰ẂH̗̦͈̭̫̩͕Á̱̝͓̪͚̭T͎͔̭̜ ̣M̷̯̩͎Y̵̤̟̜̮̟͉̩ ҉͓̗ͅC̨̪̫͇̮̘̜H͍͟A̬̳͍̟̜R̞̟͈͚̣̳À͇̳C̨̬T̢E͠R ͎͡W͎̫̰O͉̜̫̞̝U͕͟L̘̰̘͇͙D̫̦̺͠ ̭͍̮͇̻ḒO͖̖̳̦̙͠!"

"Ì̥̜̳͚̕Ţ̴̮͟ͅ'̛̲͔̰S̡̯̖̀ ̷̣͈̳̺̣͖̻̟͠͠ͅW̶̙͇̖̪̹̰̘͡H̭̳̮͎̞̰̠̪͡A̪̪̤̠T̵҉̗̜͔͖ ̷̖̻̫̮̪̦M̛̰̥̺͝Y̧̭͖̝̯͕̯̤͓̦ ̬̱͜͜Ć͏̺̳̣̯̺̬H̦̦̯̱͓͇̳͡A̷̢̝̠͈R̠̱Á̢̢̩̞͓̩C̷̳̮̝͔͍T̥̼̭̬E̝͉͜R̷̙̘͚̩͖ ̡̘̩̪̗͔̲̘͞W͏̭̳͙̦͙̺Ò̶҉̞U̲̭͢L̵̺̱̰͓̻ͅD҉̘͓̺̭ ̩̯̻̱̫̖̙͞D̫͖̦̻̝̪̖̱ͅO̥̫̪̠̮͉̕͝!̥͕̣̙͡"

"Í̶̴̸͓͈̲̠̠̞̪̞͝T͝͏̧̺̳̟͇̰̻͎̺͚͍̥̼'̢̦̺̼͈̤̬̙͎̥̤̼̰͉͚͉͜Ś̛̳̭̙̲̮̣̗̫̙͖̘̝̖͚̻̞ ̷̶͠҉̳̪̜͠Ẃ̷̵̧̧̮͉̺͇̘̘̣̟̟̭̩̻̱̦̹̫H̪̗̘͓̦̲̖͉̻͙̟̱̗̖̞̝̗̜̕͘͟A̶͡͏̸͓̠͎̲̙̫̺̟̮͙̦̯̲́T̵̵͘ ̪̬̠̼͍̭͢͜ ͘͝҉̳̯̮̟̱̳̮̮̩̪̳͚͙̞̝̭̜M̷͏̸̫̙̬͚̯̲͓̟̙͍̥̮͚͚͔͇̪Ý͚͖̙͍͉͎̤̹̱̀͘͢ ̷̸̧̠̥͚͍͎̝͓̟̹̲͇̻͚͎̻̩͙͟C̴̷̻͇̖̼̙̲̰͎̺̺̯̥̙͖̯H̷̷̼̬̙̗͉̮͍͈̮̤̗͘͞A̶̴͚͈͚̳̪͕̝͘R̷͢͠҉̭̻̘͎ ̘À͚̜͉͙̟̼̪͜C̴͍̭͙̰̼̙̬̹̰̜̼̦͢͠T̷̶̨̙̻͇͍̖̥̩̣̯̫E̸̴̞͙̫̫̮̳̟̳͚͉̯͘̕Ŗ̨̧̝͔͚͉̫̬̟̝̮͍̕ ̭̦̘͍͔̟̗̞̱͎̺͟͡W͍͚̖͙̹̥̱͟͡O̵̰̯͔̯̦͎͚̯̬͘͝͡Ù̷̱̗̘͚̖̖̻͖̼̙̠͍̘̬͝L̶̛͚͇͚̘̰̰̦̹̮̥̞̯̖̞̲͝͞ ̘̞̱D̷̢̨̗͚̖̝̣͓͍̙̩̬̪̯ͅ ̶̸̶̘̯͍̯͎̹̭͡͝D́҉͓̼͇͙͎̮̻̘̼͇̤̙̥͉͍͉̘́̕ͅO̕҉̬̭̫̗̝͔͡!̛̩̞͍̗͟͞͡"

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Grand Lodge

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ThePuppyTurtle wrote:

For the record, this is a terrible idea. I've had three goblin PCs, and two of them were a#&~#%~s about it.

"What do you mean I can't be a good character while killing all of my enemies without mercy? That's just how goblins are!"

"What do you mean stealing from this major NPC is a dick thing to do because it risks failure for the whole party just to get me a few extra GP? Goblins do that kind of thing!"

"What do you mean I'm not allowed to steal from the party? You're so unfairly restrictive! It's what my character would do!"

"It's what my character would do!"

"Į̟͇̣T͓̠͇͇͖̩̤'̦͙͕̙̳͘S̖̺̫͈̲ͅ ̨͓̪͇̻͍̰ẂH̗̦͈̭̫̩͕Á̱̝͓̪͚̭T͎͔̭̜ ̣M̷̯̩͎Y̵̤̟̜̮̟͉̩ ҉͓̗ͅC̨̪̫͇̮̘̜H͍͟A̬̳͍̟̜R̞̟͈͚̣̳À͇̳C̨̬T̢E͠R ͎͡W͎̫̰O͉̜̫̞̝U͕͟L̘̰̘͇͙D̫̦̺͠ ̭͍̮͇̻ḒO͖̖̳̦̙͠!"

"Ì̥̜̳͚̕Ţ̴̮͟ͅ'̛̲͔̰S̡̯̖̀ ̷̣͈̳̺̣͖̻̟͠͠ͅW̶̙͇̖̪̹̰̘͡H̭̳̮͎̞̰̠̪͡A̪̪̤̠T̵҉̗̜͔͖ ̷̖̻̫̮̪̦M̛̰̥̺͝Y̧̭͖̝̯͕̯̤͓̦ ̬̱͜͜Ć͏̺̳̣̯̺̬H̦̦̯̱͓͇̳͡A̷̢̝̠͈R̠̱Á̢̢̩̞͓̩C̷̳̮̝͔͍T̥̼̭̬E̝͉͜R̷̙̘͚̩͖ ̡̘̩̪̗͔̲̘͞W͏̭̳͙̦͙̺Ò̶҉̞U̲̭͢L̵̺̱̰͓̻ͅD҉̘͓̺̭ ̩̯̻̱̫̖̙͞D̫͖̦̻̝̪̖̱ͅO̥̫̪̠̮͉̕͝!̥͕̣̙͡"

"Í̶̴̸͓͈̲̠̠̞̪̞͝T͝͏̧̺̳̟͇̰̻͎̺͚͍̥̼'̢̦̺̼͈̤̬̙͎̥̤̼̰͉͚͉͜Ś̛̳̭̙̲̮̣̗̫̙͖̘̝̖͚̻̞ ̷̶͠҉̳̪̜͠Ẃ̷̵̧̧̮͉̺͇̘̘̣̟̟̭̩̻̱̦̹̫H̪̗̘͓̦̲̖͉̻͙̟̱̗̖̞̝̗̜̕͘͟A̶͡͏̸͓̠͎̲̙̫̺̟̮͙̦̯̲́T̵̵͘ ̪̬̠̼͍̭͢͜ ͘͝҉̳̯̮̟̱̳̮̮̩̪̳͚͙̞̝̭̜M̷͏̸̫̙̬͚̯̲͓̟̙͍̥̮͚͚͔͇̪Ý͚͖̙͍͉͎̤̹̱̀͘͢ ̷̸̧̠̥͚͍͎̝͓̟̹̲͇̻͚͎̻̩͙͟C̴̷̻͇̖̼̙̲̰͎̺̺̯̥̙͖̯H̷̷̼̬̙̗͉̮͍͈̮̤̗͘͞A̶̴͚͈͚̳̪͕̝͘R̷͢͠҉̭̻̘͎ ̘À͚̜͉͙̟̼̪͜C̴͍̭͙̰̼̙̬̹̰̜̼̦͢͠T̷̶̨̙̻͇͍̖̥̩̣̯̫E̸̴̞͙̫̫̮̳̟̳͚͉̯͘̕Ŗ̨̧̝͔͚͉̫̬̟̝̮͍̕ ̭̦̘͍͔̟̗̞̱͎̺͟͡W͍͚̖͙̹̥̱͟͡O̵̰̯͔̯̦͎͚̯̬͘͝͡Ù̷̱̗̘͚̖̖̻͖̼̙̠͍̘̬͝L̶̛͚͇͚̘̰̰̦̹̮̥̞̯̖̞̲͝͞ ̘̞̱D̷̢̨̗͚̖̝̣͓͍̙̩̬̪̯ͅ ̶̸̶̘̯͍̯͎̹̭͡͝D́҉͓̼͇͙͎̮̻̘̼͇̤̙̥͉͍͉̘́̕ͅO̕҉̬̭̫̗̝͔͡!̛̩̞͍̗͟͞͡"

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Sorry TPT, but "It's what my character would do" has nothing to do with the goblins, and everything to do with the jerks that played them.


I dont have a problem with it, but I've never cared for the comic relief goblins of Golarion either. I've always used them more like they were in Eberron where they were actually contributing to society to some extent.

Shadow Lodge

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While I'd prefer it if kobolds were in core instead, I'm willing to wait until they reveal the explanation for core goblins.

In an all-goblin group trying to heroically rescue the stupid longshanks from their books, firey disruption won't detract from the game because it'll be a part of it from the get-go. Otherwise, it'd take some doing to integrate everyone.

I mean, I've always liked kobolds...


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I like goblins a whole bunch, but Rysky suggested skittermanders in PF2e, which I think is fantastic. So, what if Paizo took it further: what if a skittermander -- instead of goblin -- became the new iconic alchemist? I know it won't happen, because WAR's probably already working on or finished the iconic gob art, but would that be a better fit than gobs as a core PC race?


Again I don't think anyone is saying that Goblins should not be a playable race. The issue is that the lore at least in Golarion really makes PCs the exception not the rule. Made worse that the regular Goblins would kill off the PC Goblin as some kind of weird anomaly. Either they race evolves somehow to be less of what they are in the setting or as another poster suggested allow them in core with the caveat that they can and will face stigmata from both goblins and non-goblins.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unless we have a bunch of time-travelling goblins that come from the far, far, far, far (beyond Starfinder far) future to bootstrap their primitive ancestors to prevent the coming of Goblin-Cel through aggressive mental growth procedures and forced education camps...

EDIT: Or fly in from Arcadialand to check on their wayward backwoods cousins on their sweet ornithopters.

Silver Crusade

Aristophanes wrote:
ThePuppyTurtle wrote:

For the record, this is a terrible idea. I've had three goblin PCs, and two of them were a#&~#%~s about it.

"What do you mean I can't be a good character while killing all of my enemies without mercy? That's just how goblins are!"

"What do you mean stealing from this major NPC is a dick thing to do because it risks failure for the whole party just to get me a few extra GP? Goblins do that kind of thing!"

"What do you mean I'm not allowed to steal from the party? You're so unfairly restrictive! It's what my character would do!"

"It's what my character would do!"

"Į̟͇̣T͓̠͇͇͖̩̤'̦͙͕̙̳͘S̖̺̫͈̲ͅ ̨͓̪͇̻͍̰ẂH̗̦͈̭̫̩͕Á̱̝͓̪͚̭T͎͔̭̜ ̣M̷̯̩͎Y̵̤̟̜̮̟͉̩ ҉͓̗ͅC̨̪̫͇̮̘̜H͍͟A̬̳͍̟̜R̞̟͈͚̣̳À͇̳C̨̬T̢E͠R ͎͡W͎̫̰O͉̜̫̞̝U͕͟L̘̰̘͇͙D̫̦̺͠ ̭͍̮͇̻ḒO͖̖̳̦̙͠!"

"Ì̥̜̳͚̕Ţ̴̮͟ͅ'̛̲͔̰S̡̯̖̀ ̷̣͈̳̺̣͖̻̟͠͠ͅW̶̙͇̖̪̹̰̘͡H̭̳̮͎̞̰̠̪͡A̪̪̤̠T̵҉̗̜͔͖ ̷̖̻̫̮̪̦M̛̰̥̺͝Y̧̭͖̝̯͕̯̤͓̦ ̬̱͜͜Ć͏̺̳̣̯̺̬H̦̦̯̱͓͇̳͡A̷̢̝̠͈R̠̱Á̢̢̩̞͓̩C̷̳̮̝͔͍T̥̼̭̬E̝͉͜R̷̙̘͚̩͖ ̡̘̩̪̗͔̲̘͞W͏̭̳͙̦͙̺Ò̶҉̞U̲̭͢L̵̺̱̰͓̻ͅD҉̘͓̺̭ ̩̯̻̱̫̖̙͞D̫͖̦̻̝̪̖̱ͅO̥̫̪̠̮͉̕͝!̥͕̣̙͡"

"Í̶̴̸͓͈̲̠̠̞̪̞͝T͝͏̧̺̳̟͇̰̻͎̺͚͍̥̼'̢̦̺̼͈̤̬̙͎̥̤̼̰͉͚͉͜Ś̛̳̭̙̲̮̣̗̫̙͖̘̝̖͚̻̞ ̷̶͠҉̳̪̜͠Ẃ̷̵̧̧̮͉̺͇̘̘̣̟̟̭̩̻̱̦̹̫H̪̗̘͓̦̲̖͉̻͙̟̱̗̖̞̝̗̜̕͘͟A̶͡͏̸͓̠͎̲̙̫̺̟̮͙̦̯̲́T̵̵͘ ̪̬̠̼͍̭͢͜ ͘͝҉̳̯̮̟̱̳̮̮̩̪̳͚͙̞̝̭̜M̷͏̸̫̙̬͚̯̲͓̟̙͍̥̮͚͚͔͇̪Ý͚͖̙͍͉͎̤̹̱̀͘͢ ̷̸̧̠̥͚͍͎̝͓̟̹̲͇̻͚͎̻̩͙͟C̴̷̻͇̖̼̙̲̰͎̺̺̯̥̙͖̯H̷̷̼̬̙̗͉̮͍͈̮̤̗͘͞A̶̴͚͈͚̳̪͕̝͘R̷͢͠҉̭̻̘͎ ̘À͚̜͉͙̟̼̪͜C̴͍̭͙̰̼̙̬̹̰̜̼̦͢͠T̷̶̨̙̻͇͍̖̥̩̣̯̫E̸̴̞͙̫̫̮̳̟̳͚͉̯͘̕Ŗ̨̧̝͔͚͉̫̬̟̝̮͍̕ ̭̦̘͍͔̟̗̞̱͎̺͟͡W͍͚̖͙̹̥̱͟͡O̵̰̯͔̯̦͎͚̯̬͘͝͡Ù̷̱̗̘͚̖̖̻͖̼̙̠͍̘̬͝L̶̛͚͇͚̘̰̰̦̹̮̥̞̯̖̞̲͝͞ ̘̞̱D̷̢̨̗͚̖̝̣͓͍̙̩̬̪̯ͅ ̶̸̶̘̯͍̯͎̹̭͡͝D́҉͓̼͇͙͎̮̻̘̼͇̤̙̥͉͍͉̘́̕ͅO̕҉̬̭̫̗̝͔͡!̛̩̞͍̗͟͞͡"

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Sorry TPT, but "It's what my character would do" has nothing to do with the goblins, and everything to do with the jerks that played them.

But would those same people have been jerks if they didn't feel they had the excuse to? Some would, but people have an easier time being a jerk if they have a better excuse, and this is going to be seen as an awesome excuse by people to whom it just doesn't occur to play a goblin differently.

Scarab Sages

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<Wonders if it is tool late to sneak into the Paizo office and replace every instance of 'goblin' with 'ratfolk' in the draft rulebook.>

Grand Lodge

Actually, that's not bad.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

>wonders if it's too late to replace every instance of goblin and ratfolk with tengu...<


Goblins: 2Es Kender.


Maybe it's as simple as "the Goblins that make up PC races come from tribes that have gotten past that setback."


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Goblin's as written are a walking advertisement for extermination. They're a literal plague, that will--not if, will, destroy the region if they're allowed to breed, and produce nothing of value.

So, if they want to make them not a plague, you get a horde of GINO's (Goblin's in Name Only), if they keep them, anything like the stupid, murderous (let us remember, having goblins in teh region is generally the source of most of your vanishing children, who they ate), backstabbing plagues, then you get the traditional horde of "But I'm playing my character!"

If not, then why use them? Paizo has loads of damned species that are far more interesting than Goblins, from just about every viewpoint.


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At the same time, not every Goblin has to be part of some murderous locust-like vermin race. Just like not every human is a lawful, upstanding citizen, Goblins can have variety, too. And hey, it's 2E. They're changing things. Changing bits of the setting like not making Goblins glorified rats with weapons is certainly keeping in spirit with the whole idea.


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I know players like playing against type, but if every PC has to be against type it kind of ruins immersion a bit - that was kind of the problem in earlier editions with the proliferation of dark elves.

Again, it is not goblins per se, it is the Golarion specific lore. If they change that too much are they really the same race? If they change that too much they will cease to be the really quite adorable psychopaths that they are (I say that as someone who hated PF goblins so much when I started - the annoying little gits grow on you though!).


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Well, I guess what I mean is that changing the lore isn't always a bad thing. Evolving it, you could say. And monolithic cultures are generally bad, anyway. Multiple tribes of Goblins, some of whom might even dare to read and write, sounds more entertaining and more welcoming from a roleplaying perspective to me than "every single Goblin ever born, no matter the circumstances, is an illiterate psychopath."

I prefer to have more open doors, especially where player characters are involved.


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What if s tribe learn to read, and culture makes them realize things about morality?


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I would never stop someone from playing (as a gm) one or their inclusion in the rules, but i never liked the pathfinder goblin. I never cared for their dipiction in the art or their implyed personality.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
gharlane wrote:

Goblin's as written are a walking advertisement for extermination. They're a literal plague, that will--not if, will, destroy the region if they're allowed to breed, and produce nothing of value.

So, if they want to make them not a plague, you get a horde of GINO's (Goblin's in Name Only), if they keep them, anything like the stupid, murderous (let us remember, having goblins in teh region is generally the source of most of your vanishing children, who they ate), backstabbing plagues, then you get the traditional horde of "But I'm playing my character!"

If not, then why use them? Paizo has loads of damned species that are far more interesting than Goblins, from just about every viewpoint.

This +1000, give us a better core race than goblines (i.e. anything else)


From a mechanical standpoint they are the best small race in my opinion. I didnt notice it until someone brought it up in 3.5. I've been tempted to play one in PF a few times.

From a lore setting I hope there is some kind of change to them so they aren't the comic relief anymore. I'm guessing the every last AP is going to explain the changes between editions. One Paizo staff member has already said that "it's a doozy", so I'm expecting something big.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
What if s tribe learn to read, and culture makes them realize things about morality?

The problem with that is Golarion Goblin lore is they would have to be the most secretive, paranoid Goblins around. As soon as the other less civilized Goblins find out they would band together and wipe the civilized Goblins. The rest of the Goblins are not rational let alone be tolerant of a literate, civilized race of Goblins imo.


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Make the main civilized goblin faction a Samurai clan. Remember, the iconic Samurai raises a group of goblin babies in Ultimate Campaign. Japanese goblins in alchemical Mecha is something I want to see.


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gharlane wrote:

Goblin's as written are a walking advertisement for extermination. They're a literal plague, that will--not if, will, destroy the region if they're allowed to breed, and produce nothing of value.

So, if they want to make them not a plague, you get a horde of GINO's (Goblin's in Name Only), if they keep them, anything like the stupid, murderous (let us remember, having goblins in teh region is generally the source of most of your vanishing children, who they ate), backstabbing plagues, then you get the traditional horde of "But I'm playing my character!"

If not, then why use them? Paizo has loads of damned species that are far more interesting than Goblins, from just about every viewpoint.

I'm going to repost this too because it says what needs to be said:

Either goblins are goblins, and too disruptive for normal play, or goblins aren't goblins (GINOs) and then why have them?

I'll expand by saying there's not just one flawed fundamental aspect of goblins, but several, starting with anti-literacy (not just illiteracy), various hatreds, lack of self-preservation instincts, and pyromania. Other than mechanics, I can't think of one party-friendly facet of goblinness.

Don't use them? Unless a peculiar story arises, I won't.
But then again, I play in PFS. I cannot imagine cracking open the dam on goblins there. Nothing in core should beg for a ban, and while I'm wary of other changes, this is the only one that worries me. Profoundly.
Player 1: I'm playing a goblin.
GM: Not a goblin goblin I hope?
Player 1: What do you mean? Of course Mr. Explody Pants is a goblin.
Everybody else: Ah crap...
Player 1: Yes, that's part of his shtick.
GM: Wait, what?!
Player 2: I think I'll play this social event scenario at a later time...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:
gharlane wrote:

Goblin's as written are a walking advertisement for extermination. They're a literal plague, that will--not if, will, destroy the region if they're allowed to breed, and produce nothing of value.

So, if they want to make them not a plague, you get a horde of GINO's (Goblin's in Name Only), if they keep them, anything like the stupid, murderous (let us remember, having goblins in teh region is generally the source of most of your vanishing children, who they ate), backstabbing plagues, then you get the traditional horde of "But I'm playing my character!"

If not, then why use them? Paizo has loads of damned species that are far more interesting than Goblins, from just about every viewpoint.

I'm going to repost this too because it says what needs to be said:

Either goblins are goblins, and too disruptive for normal play, or goblins aren't goblins (GINOs) and then why have them?

I'll expand by saying there's not just one flawed fundamental aspect of goblins, but several, starting with anti-literacy (not just illiteracy), various hatreds, lack of self-preservation instincts, and pyromania. Other than mechanics, I can't think of one party-friendly facet of goblinness.

Don't use them? Unless a peculiar story arises, I won't.
But then again, I play in PFS. I cannot imagine cracking open the dam on goblins there. Nothing in core should beg for a ban, and while I'm wary of other changes, this is the only one that worries me. Profoundly.
Player 1: I'm playing a goblin.
GM: Not a goblin goblin I hope?
Player 1: What do you mean? Of course Mr. Explody Pants is a goblin.
Everybody else: Ah crap...
Player 1: Yes, that's part of his shtick.
GM: Wait, what?!
Player 2: I think I'll play this social event scenario at a later time...

These posts really say it all. I think Paizo may be painting itself into a corner here. Based on the goblin lore they've created, they're unplayable as PCs, particularly in a Society campaign. If the lore is changed so that they are playable, they aren't Paizo-style goblins anymore.

However, Paizo appears to be committed to goblins as a playable race based upon the goblin alchemist on the cover of the playtest rulebook. I hope they realize the terrible mistake they're making either before or during the PF2e playtest.


C'mon guys. Japanese Goblins.

Dark Archive

I have to say that I do object to idea of "Either it is x or it isn't x so why you play x" :P You can have goblin spirit in non distruptive character and you can have reason for wanting to play member of race that isn't like stereotype of the race.

Thats like saying "Why would you play a bald bearless dwarf that is smooth talking gardener, you should only play dwarves if you want to play angry scottish stereotypes!"


The Thing From Another World wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
What if s tribe learn to read, and culture makes them realize things about morality?

The problem with that is Golarion Goblin lore is they would have to be the most secretive, paranoid Goblins around. As soon as the other less civilized Goblins find out they would band together and wipe the civilized Goblins. The rest of the Goblins are not rational let alone be tolerant of a literate, civilized race of Goblins imo.

Do Goblins in Varisia really keep track of the goblins in the River Kingdoms and the Mana Wastes and the Shackles and Nidal, and the Mwangi Expanse, etc? For this to be plausible there would have to be some kind of really efficient "Goblin Information Network" a whole lot of cooperation between groups without a lot in common.

Particularly since a lot of the Goblins who like, learn to love reading, are the ones dwelling on the fringes of human society without a lot of other goblins around so they have to ingratiate themselves with non-goblins to survive.

Pathfinder has a proud tradition of non-humans growing up around more humans than their own kind, so it can work the same way with goblins. I am totally going to roll up a goblin who was orphaned, and subsequently raised and cared for, by a Paladin.


CorvusMask wrote:

I have to say that I do object to idea of "Either it is x or it isn't x so why you play x" :P You can have goblin spirit in non distruptive character and you can have reason for wanting to play member of race that isn't like stereotype of the race.

Thats like saying "Why would you play a bald bearless dwarf that is smooth talking gardener, you should only play dwarves if you want to play angry scottish stereotypes!"

I actually play an intentionally Anti-Dwarf Dwarf. He's a nature lover who adores Tian culture, doesn't wear armor, and dislikes other Dwarfs because they're racist (even while he understands the hypocrisy of that.) Due to poor hygiene, he hasn't shaved his beard, but neither has he tended it (except poorly for when going to meet Amari Li or attend a social event for PFS). So I can understand being an Anti-Goblin Goblin.

The problem is, isn't that the only type of Goblin suitable for organized play? Which aspect of the "goblin spirit" you mention is non-disruptive? And if you do find such an aspect, would PFS need to add a disclaimer about which goblin aspects are suitably non-disruptive and which aren't?
Sounds like a lot of shoehorning for a CRB presumed race.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Obviously not really an extensive look or poll into such things but the responce from every member of my pathfinder group to the making Goblins a core race was "That dosent make any sense." With one adding "Well yeah It could work with a none Golarion generic 3.5 Goblin but the stuff that makes Golarion goblins what they are also make's them pretty terrible at being anything close to an accepted core race." and I really cant disagree with them.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Having them playable is one thing. Having them core bugs me to no end.
So they used to be a blight on society, now suddenly they'll be in adventuring groups everywhere?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Thing From Another World wrote:
NetoD20 wrote:


Well, the book is not just for those who use Golarion, and I saw a surprisingly high number of people asking for a more setting-agnostic approach to the Core Rulebook (myself included). Don't want them? Don't need to use them. Sometimes I think people create these setting/roleplaying barriers that really didn't need to be there. As the very developers said, goblins have no impediments to transit in places like Absalon, and for places where they wouldn't be openly accepted I think that that just makes roleplay more interesting if a goblin is forced to hide or something.

Except they've said 2E will be more Golarion-infused.


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I feel like all the people saying "that can't work" basically underlines what is perhaps Paizo's point in making goblins a core race- "that we should consider goblins to be as diverse a people as anybody else."

If the *only* thing people can think to portray with goblins is the "maniacal illiterate arsonist", then it's even more important for Paizo to point out the existence of goblins that aren't that.

I mean, in response to "there's no way this can work" - of course it can work; anything can work. It's just that the onus falls on us to make it work.


LuZeke wrote:
So goblins are officially part of the core races now. I've had goblin characters before. So that in itself isn't a huge deal. But I'm wondering, Pathfinder goblins have a pretty big setback as player characters, their fear of words and books. Is that going to be removed in PF2nd? That would be a bit sad, because the goblins' absurd ideas about words are endearingly silly.

Player characters being unusual specimens by definition, said PC goblins would not have those hang-ups (or at least, not to a crippling degree).


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like all the people saying "that can't work" basically underlines what is perhaps Paizo's point in making goblins a core race- "that we should consider goblins to be as diverse a people as anybody else."

If the *only* thing people can think to portray with goblins is the "maniacal illiterate arsonist", then it's even more important for Paizo to point out the existence of goblins that aren't that.

I mean, in response to "there's no way this can work" - of course it can work; anything can work. It's just that the onus falls on us to make it work.

I disagree. The onus falls on the one selling the product and claiming it works.

Anything else is, to a greater or lesser extent, telling the customers to fix a broken system themselves.


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ThePuppyTurtle wrote:
For the record, this is a terrible idea. I've had three goblin PCs, and two of them were a$$&%*$s about it.

So, what you're really saying is, you had two a**hole players, and that was the problem.

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