Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

Painful Bugger,

IN YOUR opinion...

Well, for one, Natural Armor isn't as good. Though Constitution would have been a lot more thematic in my opinion.

I agree with everything else though.

You're right. Constitution is much better, even half the constitution modifier would have been better. I also have to add in the enhancement bonuses to stats from aspects are a terrible class feature. That pretty much shoehorns people into choosing certain aspects to save costs on magic items. Or worst yet, be completely redundant cause you happen to have a stat boosting item for one reason or another.

Painful Bugger,

IN YOUR opinion...

...that The Shifter could have benefitted from a public playtest to at least get the opinion of people on what they expected out of the class. Instead we got someone's pet project. A Druid that dump stats wisdom is a better shapeshifter then the Shifter. I'm certain many would agree with me.

Not sure I do...but I'm not ready to argue about a class or a book I don't have. Just like I didn't argue about Vigilante or Corruptions...

I also have to add in the enhancement bonuses to stats from aspects are a terrible class feature. That pretty much shoehorns people into choosing certain aspects to save costs on magic items. Or worst yet, be completely redundant cause you happen to have a stat boosting item for one reason or another.

...they aren't even size bonuses like the shapechanging spells or Kineticist's Elemental Overflow? Gozeh damn it...

Rysky wrote:

What all did the Barbarian get, if I may ask?

** spoiler omitted **

Sounds like the barbarian gets some amazing archetypes this time around.

Oh, by the way, can we get a rough idea of what the 'new druid sects' are? And what kind of advice on the First World the book has?

Painful Bugger wrote:

I also have to add in the enhancement bonuses to stats from aspects are a terrible class feature. That pretty much shoehorns people into choosing certain aspects to save costs on magic items. Or worst yet, be completely redundant cause you happen to have a stat boosting item for one reason or another.

...they aren't even size bonuses like the shapechanging spells or Kineticist's Elemental Overflow? Gozeh damn it...

Man, chill… You presumably get the regular size bonuses for changing size, and the enhancement bonuses are aspect add-ons. If they were an exotic stacking type, then you'd be stepping all over Barbarian with much longer duration.

I've got to agree with Painful Bugger, this class is a real disappointment. Even if you ignore spells, the Druid class is better at shifting than the Shifter. To make matters worse the archetype I was looking forward to most, the Oozemorph is basically unplayable at low levels, you can only maintain humanoid form for 1/hour per level a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your level. That means that at 1st level you can be in humanoid form for 1 hour a day. Sounds bad, but it gets worse, when in ooze form, in addition to other restrictions, you can't hold items. So I hope the rest of the party is cool with carrying your stuff.

Man, chill… You presumably get the regular size bonuses for changing size, and the enhancement bonuses are aspect add-ons. If they were an exotic stacking type, then you'd be stepping all over Barbarian with much longer duration.

You mean like anything that gets a mutagen? Bloodrager? Agatheil Vigilante? Ragechymist? I'm sure others could add more...

To me, the Shifter feels like half a class: as in, somebody forgot to add the other half of the class features.

A 20th-level shifter has:
- Track
- wild empathy
- woodland stride
- 1d8/x3 claw attacks that ignore most DR
- the Monk AC bonus
- trackless step
- 5 aspects, with minor forms she can use for 23 minutes a day
- Wild shape 8/day, only as beast shape II, with extra benefits from her major forms but limited to only those five

Compare to a 20th-level shapeshifter ranger:
- Track
- wild empathy
- woodland stride
- evasion and improved evasion
- swift tracker and improved quarry
- hide in plain sight
- hunter's bond (an animal companion or granting buffs to allies)
- 5 natural weapon combat style feats (which can grant claws and ignoring some DR with claws)
- shifter's blessing 4/day, chosen from 3 forms, which can act as beast shape IV
- 5 favored enemy types, up to +10
- spells up to 4th level, which include various polymorph effects with freely-chooseable benefits (for example, greater animal aspect)

The ranger doesn't get the hour/level of wild shape, but otherwise is roundly better off, and is actually better at shapeshifting into random things than the shifter because of spell access.

I've got to agree with Painful Bugger, this class is a real disappointment. Even if you ignore spells, the Druid class is better at shifting than the Shifter. To make matters worse the archetype I was looking forward to most, the Oozemorph is basically unplayable at low levels, you can only maintain humanoid form for 1/hour per level a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your level. That means that at 1st level you can be in humanoid form for 1 hour a day. Sounds bad, but it gets worse, when in ooze form, in addition to other restrictions, you can't hold items. So I hope the rest of the party is cool with carrying your stuff.

That looks pretty bad. I mean, the druid gets a 9th level spell progression, and wild shape and other bennies, so if they're better than the shifter at shapechanging, well, why not play a druid? The oozemorph is just bad design.

Good news, I have sphere's of power, so I can fairly easily come up with a tradition for a shifter using that system.

The ranger doesn't get the hour/level of wild shape, but otherwise is roundly better off, and is actually better at shapeshifting into random things than the shifter because of spell access.

Basically someone got extreme of tunnelvision and no external feedback so we ended up with some weird class that's very unflexible. What's even more damning is the presence of additional shape changing spells. Why couldn't the Shifter be the class that can turn into just about anything as it's whole deal?

Shifter discussion aside, would anyone with a PDF be willing to summarize the high points of the Occultist archetypes?

Roadie wrote:

The ranger doesn't get the hour/level of wild shape, but otherwise is roundly better off, and is actually better at shapeshifting into random things than the shifter because of spell access.

Basically someone got extreme of tunnelvision and no external feedback so we ended up with some weird class that's very unflexible. What's even more damning is the presence of additional shape changing spells. Why couldn't the Shifter be the class that can turn into just about anything as it's whole deal?

What I'd have really liked to see would be something like a druid with the casting and animal companion removed, but wild shape broadly expanded with the ability to emulate lots of different polymorph effects, including weird stuff like Cloud Shape, spells that divine casters normally don't get like Monstrous Physique, utility powers like "turn into a Tiny animal and get a free Nondetection effect along with it", etc.

Painful Bugger wrote:

Roadie wrote:

The ranger doesn't get the hour/level of wild shape, but otherwise is roundly better off, and is actually better at shapeshifting into random things than the shifter because of spell access.

Basically someone got extreme of tunnelvision and no external feedback so we ended up with some weird class that's very unflexible. What's even more damning is the presence of additional shape changing spells. Why couldn't the Shifter be the class that can turn into just about anything as it's whole deal?

What I'd have really liked to see would be something like a druid with the casting and animal companion removed, but wild shape broadly expanded with the ability to emulate lots of different polymorph effects, including weird stuff like Cloud Shape, spells that divine casters normally don't get like Monstrous Physique, utility powers like "turn into a Tiny animal and get a free Nondetection effect along with it", etc.

Nail on the head Roadie. That's exactly what I wanted to. I think several people wanted it.

I'll reserve final judgement until Paizo decides I am worthy of my subscriber copy, but so far... why is the Shifter its own class and not an alternate class or archetype of Unchained Monk? Because so far it seems like it's just a glorified Unchained Monk Archetype.

The archetypes (both of Shifter and everything else) sound like they'll easily salvage the book if the base Shifter is a redundant mess, so I look forward to forming a final opinion in the next __ days.

Wow the shifter is bad. It's wildshape should be errata'd to just read "functions as a druid of equal level" and nothing else. These restrictions are beyond stupid.

The archetypes (both of Shifter and everything else) sound like they'll easily salvage the book if the base Shifter is a redundant mess, so I look forward to forming a final opinion in the next __ days.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the archetypes in the book aren't great, there are a handful of good ones though. There's a lot of reprinted content too, which seems to be a trend in recent books. It does however have !duct tape and !fanny packs, also magic trees that are pretty neat. Some of the feats are alright, and the "Mastering the Wild" section is probably the best part of the book since it contains similar stuff as Ultimate Intrigue but nature.

technarken wrote:

The archetypes (both of Shifter and everything else) sound like they'll easily salvage the book if the base Shifter is a redundant mess, so I look forward to forming a final opinion in the next __ days.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the archetypes in the book aren't great, there are a handful of good ones though. There's a lot of reprinted content too, which seems to be a trend in recent books. It does however have !duct tape and !fanny packs, also magic trees that are pretty neat.

Don't forget your Cooler Chest, Hunter's Stand, and totally not a !camelback so you can roleplay as a hipster hiker or a redneck on a hunt. Also there's a magic lemon tree that gives you 91x 130gp advanced acid flasks a year! Why buy 1,200 regular acid flasks for the same amount!

I'll reserve final judgement until Paizo decides I am worthy of my subscriber copy...I look forward to forming a final opinion in the next __ days.

Please keep that in mind.

Why do I feel some of this discussion is coming from people deliberately being salty, or jerk-ish.

Out here in the wilds, we eat salted meat and jerk, and I know the ooze isn't going to be so picky. So simmer down, before we actually simmer you to get good eating and peace and quiet.

Signed

A C. Annibal.

P.S: how does the arrow champion look.

Why do I feel some of this discussion is coming from people deliberately being salty, or jerk-ish.

I think you're reading too much into people's reactions.

P.S: how does the arrow champion look.

Looks pretty good, it's pretty much a swashbuckler that can use Deeds at range.

Seeing the backlash, I was first worried its another case of "devs avoid really hard making new class op, so people will complain about it being underwhelming" like people complained with vigilante, but it seems like its more of "people expected shifter to be able to change into more than few animals" kind of deal? That doesn't sound that bad.

Oozemorph confuses me though, since you can't speak or carry equipment and instead of ac bonus you get dr against most common physical weapon type ._. Like, it sounds like to me whole point of oozemorph is to simulate playing ooze rather than being able to play the game, I mean, seriously, you don't even get to carry items inside your jelly? Heck, even oozes can use magic items they carry inside them in some adventures I've read. It kind of feels like writer went for only flavor and no usability at all which confuses me how you are supposed to play a oozemorph. Like letting player carry their equipment should have been fine at least, better still let them speak so no sign slime language shenanigans.

Regarding the Oozemorph, does it say they can’t carry anything, or just that they can’t hold/wield anything?

Hmm, severals of my players are discussing it, apparently it says that it doesn't have magic item slots and can't hold objects, benefit from armor, cast spells, use or activate any magic item that is held or hold on the body.

So umm, yeah, oozemorph couldn't even use rings it seems <_< Which I could swear I've seen several adventure modules were ooze had survived on consuming someone with ring of sustenance. Or maybe that was my homebrew campaign, can't remember.

I'd personally just house rule it so that they can use magic items that work just by holding them inside their body. But yeah, it doesn't say technically that they can't carry items, but it definitely goes over the mile to say that they can't use any magic item at all. So even if they can carry item, not sure how you are supposed to play a class that can't use any loot you find ._.

I’ll have to wait to go over the text myself, but usually when they say “use” in that fashion they mean “activate”, so constant effects should be okay. Again, me just thinking till I get my book.

Seeing the backlash, I was first worried its another case of "devs avoid really hard making new class op, so people will complain about it being underwhelming" like people complained with vigilante, but it seems like its more of "people expected shifter to be able to change into more than few animals" kind of deal? That doesn't sound that bad.

The problem is that the set of options you get is just so tiny. It's a class supposedly based around shapeshifting, but for most campaigns you'll only ever get to turn into three or maybe four different things in total, and the class totally lacks any access to scaling secondary abilities that even plain old monk or fighter gets (ki powers, advanced weapon training).

Compare to, for example, a beastmorph vivisectionist alchemist. The alchemist gets to turn into lots of different man-beasts via mutagen AND has access to a bunch of self-polymorph extracts (including beast shape I through IV), and even when the alchemist can't publicly turn into stuff for social reasons he can still contribute with other extracts and with sneak attack. The only thing the alchemist doesn't have an easy thematic equivalent to is hour/level duration polymorphs... and even then the beastmorph mutagen eventually gets to an hour-plus duration.

Or for another comparison with a focus on a single animal identity, consider agathiel vigilante: you get to turn into an animal at will with no X/day or duration limits, you get your pick of abilities from beast shape I-IV spells, and you still get 10 social talents and 5 vigilante talents and vigilante specialization.

I’ll have to wait to go over the text myself, but usually when they say “use” in that fashion they mean “activate”, so constant effects should be okay. Again, me just thinking till I get my book.

Nah, they quoted exact thing, it specifically says they can't use magic items that require activation, is held or worn on body <_<

@Roadie: Anyhoo, the way I see it is that it can't shift into everything, but it can do unique things with shifting other classes can't like combining the forms and class is built around natural attack combat, so doesn't sound that bad for me even if it can't turn into all animal kingdoms in cool attack pattern. Helps I didn't have much of expectation besides it being a class build around shifting, so I'm not disappointed it not having only four different forms at level 20 if I understood right?

@Roadie: Anyhoo, the way I see it is that it can't shift into everything, but it can do unique things with shifting other classes can't like combining the forms and class is built around natural attack combat, so doesn't sound that bad for me even if it can't turn into all animal kingdoms in cool attack pattern. Helps I didn't have much of expectation besides it being a class build around shifting, so I'm not disappointed it not having only four different forms at level 20 if I understood right?

It really can't combine them, though. It's not mixing abilities you'd normally see on different creatures, like you could with a beastmorph alchemist or an agathiel vigilante (for example, getting swim, fly, and climb all at once). It's just wild shape for a single form at a time, and you get to add minor bonuses from your other aspects... but most of those minor bonuses are just +2/+4/+8 enhancement to a stat or +4/+6/+8 competence to a skill, both of which overlap with the bonus types from magic items.

The natural attack part also really isn't anything special. It just boils down to getting claw attacks that ignore some DR types, and with damage scaling you can use in place of the damage of other natural attacks in wild shape... but a beastmorph vivisectionist alchemist is getting sneak attack and an agathiel vigilante can take the lethal grace talent to get tasty damage bonuses on all their natural attacks, so neither cares about DR or base damage in the first place. Even that shapeshifter ranger I previously mentioned can get all-the-time damage bonuses with Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat.

Hmm, sounds like it will allow you to save a lot of money though in campaigns not based in metropolis or were enhancement bonus items aren't very common, so doesn't sound that bad to me. Still, not as cool as having mixed abilities from multiple creatures yeah.

The higher expectations are, the higher the risk of disappointment. If you put expectations aside (it's hard for me, I readily admit), you get at least a class where a level 1 dip nets you permanent claws. From there you might find a few other gems...

I see why Paizo didn't want a public playtest, but maybe one or two polls about the general direction of the class would have been a good compromise for both sides.

Hmm, sounds like it will allow you to save a lot of money though in campaigns not based in metropolis or were enhancement bonus items aren't very common, so doesn't sound that bad to me. Still, not as cool as having mixed abilities from multiple creatures yeah.

The Feral Hunter archetype for Hunter Basically gets Aspects like the shifter that last all day and do the same thing as opposed to minutes per level, a much more flexible that works like Druid wild shape minus elementals and plants, and can cast 6th level spells. The class pretty much deserves a rework.

For the Shifter to really stand out in my opinion is that it should have been the return of The Master of Many Forms from 3.5 and made into a full class.

I see why Paizo didn't want a public playtest, but maybe one or two polls about the general direction of the class would have been a good compromise for both sides.

I think many people would have appreciated that.

What are new fey based polymorph spells like?

I got my PDF today and this was one of the things I was looking forward to the most. There's 4 tiers of Fey Form and they allow you to use a wide variety of special abilities. You don't get spell-like abilities, but there is something nice related to the spell-likes of the form you assume. Overall I really like the series! I was super disappointed there weren't any archetypes using them, though. Really wanted a druid archetype that had fey wildshape. Maybe in the future?

The higher expectations are, the higher the risk of disappointment. If you put expectations aside (it's hard for me, I readily admit), you get at least a class where a level 1 dip nets you permanent claws. From there you might find a few other gems...

I see why Paizo didn't want a public playtest, but maybe one or two polls about the general direction of the class would have been a good compromise for both sides.

Except very many classes can get caws at level 1.

And honestly if "it's a good 1 level dip" is the best defense of a class than hat's a pretty poor verdict...