So I'm a Warpriest 4 and my next level I'm taking Hunter 1. That puts me at 4 orisons from the Cleric spell list and another 4 from Druid. Right now in a given day I'm taking the holy trinity: Guidance, Resistance, Virtue. The other 5 I'm stumped on.
I know you don't always use a lot of orisons/0 level spells at level 5, but what advice can you give on 0 levels that you actually still use? If it helps I'm playing in the Reign of Winter AP.
Mending is also extremely useful, open close, message, prestidigitation, or read magic.
Message, open/close, and prestidigitation aren't on the orisons lists.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Read Magic lets you use scrolls without a UMD check.
No.
To activate you still need the Spell Trigger Method.
just because you know what is written on the scroll doesnt mean you can simply use it without UMD or fitting spell knowledge.
Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Create Water would definitely be at the top of my list.
Light, Mending, Stabilize, and Spark can all be very useful.
I also like Detect Poison and Purify Food and Drink.
By 5th level, I wouldn't even consider Guidance, Resistance, and Virtue. By then magic items or better spells make them obsolete.
Read Magic lets you use scrolls without a UMD check.No.
To activate you still need the Spell Trigger Method.
just because you know what is written on the scroll doesnt mean you can simply use it without UMD or fitting spell knowledge.
Scrolls are spell-completion items, not spell-trigger items. But you are correct that read magic doesn't let you use any scroll automatically. You still need to meet the class and level requirements if you don't want to use UMD.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Read this
Dude, I'm IN that thread as an active poster. Also no cloak of Resistance yet; we're in Reign of Winter; so far we've been in a village... and a village. No cloak avail yet.
So my GM is letting me spam Guidance, Resistance and Virtue so I have all three running on me and my mount at the start of every battle. The other orisons I'm looking for utility outside the standard "array." I thought Create Water and Spark might come in handy. I could Spark one of the smokesticks we've picked up as treasure for an instant Concealment or I could use Create Water for water OR as a way to generate ice in the frozen lands we're traveling through.
Stabilize might come in handy. Mending too. Does Light get used a lot? So far we've had a lot of wilderness encounters during the daytime.
Well if you are getting special privileges with Guidance, Resistance and Virtue then they can be useful. Usually you would have to spend six rounds to cast all three on yourself and your mount and that isn't worth it for those minor benefits.
The usefulness of Light is pretty situational. If you are mostly engaging in above-ground, daytime activities or if most of your party has darkvision, then it isn't very useful.
What I love most about Spark is that it has a range of 25'+5'/(2 levels). It's great if you make explosive traps and want to set them off from a distance.
Read thisDude, I'm IN that thread as an active poster.
Sorry. I don't normally pay attention to who's in which thread, and have a bad habit of responding to inquiries with whatever crosses my mind first.
Detect magic is usually pretty important. Read magic is useful if you don't have spellcraft or can't get a wand of it.
I don't know if Message is on either list, but if it is it's amazingly useful.
Well depending on what stuff you already have, and what your future levels are.
Detect magic: should be had by every spell caster. This pings through most doors and containers. It will pick up magical weapons and potions. I found potions floating in a snow bank against bad guys i could have never found.
Create water is alright, but the caster level of a level 1 spell is meh.
Detect Poison is less useful than Detect magic but has it's uses. It detection is also muych smaller than magic.
Enhanced Diplomacy +2 competency to diplomacy or intimidate. Decent buss.
Light, if you do not have ti already or darkvision I would place very high on the list.]
Mending can repair magical gear if you have the castor levels, so you may want this spell on your higher caster class.
Read magic if you do not have a stellar spellcraft. If you do have a strong spellcraft it can be ignored.
Stabilize has it's uses. but there are usually better ways to keep someone from dying. Your warpriest can channel that reaches 30 feet too.
Well if you are getting special privileges with Guidance, Resistance and Virtue then they can be useful. Usually you would have to spend six rounds to cast all three on yourself and your mount and that isn't worth it for those minor benefits.
I can see having either guidance or resistance up rather constantly in normal play (not both though, due to extra upkeep, obviously). Might need some annoying background work, but they all last a minute so it is possible to cast and move (might lower speed though, which can be an issue with 10 min/lvl spells in dungeons).
Virtue is pretty much garbage though. An extra +1 or +2 to saving throws is always going to be nice since it builds on top of your normal save progression...but 1 hp? Unless I am misreading virtue (most likely not, since it is a cantrip), that is never going to be useful past level 1-2. Saving throws can be made or broken by a +1...but it would be unusual to be in a situation where you are just 1 hp away from getting knocked out (since sheer odds would usually be a handful of hp away from 0, or zoom straight past 0 to the negatives; very rare for it to be that precise)
I thought Create Water and Spark might come in handy. I could Spark one of the smokesticks we've picked up as treasure for an instant Concealment or I could use Create Water for water OR as a way to generate ice in the frozen lands we're traveling through.
Hmmm....interesting thought. Perhaps use create water and a basic craft (trap) check in order to make slippery patches around your campsite. If I remember right, charging over ice requires an acrobatics check or your fall prone (DC 20 for charging/running, 15 for half speed). So it could make a basic defensive measure.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Stabilize is very rarely needed, but is life saving when it is. That makes it worth keeping prepared every day "just in case", especially since there aren't many good divine level 0 spells anyway.
Enhanced Diplo, Detect Magic, and Light are the only three orisons I use on a regular basis. Spark, Detect Poison, Mending, Purify Food, and Create Water are nice for roleplaying purposes but not usually effective as such. Resistance is ok at very low level. Virtue and Guidance are not worth the action unless your GM gives them special benefits as mentioned above.
So yeah, my recommendation would be Stabilize, E.Diplo, Detect, Light, Resistance, and your favorite three out of Spark, Det Pois, Mend, Purify, and Water. You can switch this per day if you want.
My character is a Halfling, so no Darkvision or Low-light Vision. Based on that I could see a case for light, but it seems like it's needed pretty rarely. If I took spark however I could always just start something on fire in an emergency for a light source.
I like Create Water as a defense and I'll run that past my GM. I also like that Create Water actually makes... water.
Guidance and Resistance come up pretty regularly. I suppose you folks are right though; I could probably dump Virtue. So if Guidance and Resistance stay in the rotation, how about these as my choices:
Warpriest: Create Water, Guidance, Mending, Resistance
Hunter: Detect Magic, Enhanced Diplomacy, Spark, Stabilize
The only thing I'm on the fence about is Detect Magic. We've got an Arcanist in the party that has ridiculous Knowledge and Spellcraft checks; she typically takes Detect Magic and is like a magic sonar I.D.'ing everything in a 60' radius constantly. If I instead take Virtue in place of Detect Magic, I don't think it'll make much difference over the long haul.
That list looks good to me. And if the Arcanist is as good as you say, then you might be right about not needing Detect Magic.
And since people keep recommending Message even though it isn't on your spell lists, I thought I'd mention that you could add it by using the Two-world Magic trait. Personally I don't think it is worth it, but it is an option.
|
Read Magic lets you use scrolls without a UMD check.No.
To activate you still need the Spell Trigger Method.
just because you know what is written on the scroll doesnt mean you can simply use it without UMD or fitting spell knowledge.
What I meant was that without Read Magic, you need to succeed a DC (20+Caster level) just to decipher the scroll, even if it on your spell list. If the spell is on your class spell list, then you can use the scroll without any further checks once you have deciphered the scroll. If the spell is on your list, but is too high a level for you to cast, then you need to make a caster level check.
[Read Magic[/i] is the easiest way to decipher a scroll.
Two uses of Fervor make channel a terrible choice for a warpriest. Stabilize will keep them from dying without costing you two quickened spells.
Stabilize has it's uses. but there are usually better ways to keep someone from dying. Your warpriest can channel that reaches 30 feet too.
When it comes to the rare times you will use it. I do not think it is much of a stretch to burn resources to save someones life.
How much mileage will you get out of stabilize? Plus if their are two+ people down channel becomes much more attractive. Plus the war priest has other options than channel, that was one resource used for example.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I'd still not go stabilize.
I'd rather have my friend up and fighting (and boosted a bit) than just unable to play, watching from the sidelines.
If it had a built in "staunches bleed effects" it would find some use. But otherwise nah. I've never taken it and don't think I would. Just makes for a better game if everyone gets to play.
Except the channel granted by fervor will not let your ally play, it will make them die. If you used stabilize, your ally is at negative HP. At 4th level when you gain channel, your dice healed is 1d6. Taking a random CR4 challenge, a slicer beetle, has an attack that does 2d6+7 with a 19-20 crit range. That will invite your ally to get back up, making them a target and inviting more damage from an AoO, that may kill them outright.
This ratio continues as you level up. Channel will restore your ally to positive HP, but not enough HP to to stay ahead of incoming damage. Stabilize will keep them from dying. Being prone at low HP after a warpriest weak channel, the only real option to stay alive is to play dead.
Yeah I'd still not go stabilize.
I'd rather have my friend up and fighting (and boosted a bit) than just unable to play, watching from the sidelines.
If it had a built in "staunches bleed effects" it would find some use. But otherwise nah. I've never taken it and don't think I would. Just makes for a better game if everyone gets to play.
Except the channel granted by fervor will not let your ally play, it will make them die. If you used stabilize, your ally is at negative HP. At 4th level when you gain channel, your dice healed is 1d6. Taking a random CR4 challenge, a slicer beetle, has an attack that does 2d6+7 with a 19-20 crit range. That will invite your ally to get back up, making them a target and inviting more damage from an AoO, that may kill them outright.
This ratio continues as you level up. Channel will restore your ally to positive HP, but not enough HP to to stay ahead of incoming damage. Stabilize will keep them from dying. Being prone at low HP after a warpriest weak channel, the only real option to stay alive is to play dead.
This is a silly point, and not worth defending so strongly. I gave one of the plethora of ways a warpriest/hunter can save someone from dying. The niche where stabilize trumps all other options are small.
My point was stabilize is not usually worth taking, and you get much more overall value with something considering what he laready has.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
My point was stabilize is not usually worth taking, and you get much more overall value with something considering what he laready has.
Stabilize may not be worth much but it also doesn't cost much.
Warpriest gets five orisons. There really aren't five orisons on the cleric list that are better than Stabilize. So yes, taking Stabilize is a decent pick.
My point was stabilize is not usually worth taking, and you get much more overall value with something considering what he laready has.Stabilize may not be worth much but it also doesn't cost much.
Warpriest gets five orisons. There really aren't five orisons on the cleric list that are better than Stabilize. So yes, taking Stabilize is a decent pick.
I disagree. The niche where it is a better option than what he already has reduces it usefulness.
I would not criticize someone playing at the same table as me for picking it, but I would never choose it myself. I also have never seen as a player or DM where stabilize was EVER useful. There are spells that would provide much better use and benefit.
There are spells that would provide much better use and benefit.Obviously. This is why moderate-level characters rarely if ever use cantrips in combat any more :)
Then why suggest he take stabilize as a "decent option"?
|
|
Yeah I'd still not go stabilize.
I'd rather have my friend up and fighting (and boosted a bit) than just unable to play, watching from the sidelines.
If it had a built in "staunches bleed effects" it would find some use. But otherwise nah. I've never taken it and don't think I would. Just makes for a better game if everyone gets to play.
Except the channel granted by fervor will not let your ally play, it will make them die. If you used stabilize, your ally is at negative HP. At 4th level when you gain channel, your dice healed is 1d6. Taking a random CR4 challenge, a slicer beetle, has an attack that does 2d6+7 with a 19-20 crit range. That will invite your ally to get back up, making them a target and inviting more damage from an AoO, that may kill them outright.
This ratio continues as you level up. Channel will restore your ally to positive HP, but not enough HP to to stay ahead of incoming damage. Stabilize will keep them from dying. Being prone at low HP after a warpriest weak channel, the only real option to stay alive is to play dead.
This is a silly point, and not worth defending so strongly. I gave one of the plethora of ways a warpriest/hunter can save someone from dying. The niche where stabilize trumps all other options are small.
My point was stabilize is not usually worth taking, and you get much more overall value with something considering what he laready has.
The point isn't that Stabilize is good, it's that channel is awful for a warpriest. It's a trap option that reduces your combat effectiveness because you are using your fervor to power it.
Channel is bad on a cleric unless you really optimize it, and it's worse for a warpriest than a cleric.Stabilize is a decent thing to prepare because it costs nothing other than a orison slot, of which you have 5.
Cavall, it's NOT about support. It's about usefulness and utility. 2 fervor is 2 swift action spells or heals. The question becomes, is the channel worth the loss or is a Stabilize then a swift heal better?
Having the guy maybe sit out a round or two before healing them means that if they go down again you can do the same instead of 'sorry, spent all my fervor on channels...' and watching the guy bleed out. You aren't rolling around in fervor most times and 2 for a single ability is a LOT.
Or look at it this way. If you're out of fervor, would it be better to have Stabilize or not?
One nice thing about Enhanced Diplomacy: it works on Intimidate too. One PC in our party is Large sized (GM ok'd a minotaur playable race) so he's working off of a Reach build, using the Blade of Mercy trait and he has the Enforcer feat.
I'm going to ask my GM if, instead of Guidance/Resistance/Virtue on before every fight, I can replace Virtue with Enhanced Diplomacy on the minotaur. I know he's already got ridiculous Intimidate but another +2 on top is a decent buff. Our combat rounds should go like this:
My wolf mount gets us into position to set up a Flank with the minotaur; the wolf and I both ready actions for when he's done. The Minotaur attacks into the flank; my readied action triggers and I grant him Aid Another. His hit causes Shaken on the foe. My wolf then attacks; if he hits he triggers a potential Trip. If THAT'S successful the foe is Prone, Shaken and has taken some damage. Next round if said foe attempts to stand he's eating AoOs.
I've seen stabilize come in handy for the reasons described above, though there's usually something better to do if you're a martial at mid-higher levels.
Guidance is surprisingly useful. A group of us played through the Iron Medusa module and that +1 rescued characters from various obstacles multiple times each session. That was an outlier though.