So in the home game I am running, the players have encountered a symbol of persuasion placed by some kalavakus demons. It is triggered by looking at it or by touch.
Even though the trap spotter rogue ability is only supposed to work within 10' of a trap, I allowed it to work in this case, as the rogue came around a corner and was able to avert his eyes before looking right at it. I allowed this because I want the rogue's abilities to seem like a good investment and I tend to add traps to existing material in order to give the rogue things that only he can do.
So now the question becomes how to disarm it without looking at it. Symbols are special since unlike most magical traps they can go off just because you looked at it.
It stands to reason that there would be some kind of penalty here for trying to disarm a trap without looking at it. I thought that the rules for gaze attacks might inform me on the issue but they basically deal with miss chances and don't work very well.
Then the question came up as to whether a dispel magic spell could be cast by a sorcerer using a mirror to look over his shoulder.
Needless to say the issue was becoming more and more muddled.
So, questions:
1. What penalties would a rogue face when trying to disable a trap without looking at it? Such as using a mirror?
2. Could a spellcaster cast a targeted spell behind him by using a mirror?
I recognize there may not be much RAW here so I wouldn't mind hearing how other GMs would wing it.
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Mirrors are a classic for looking at medusas. I'd be amenable for using them against Symbols as well.
In both cases, it's getting a good look at the thing that triggers pain, but apparently second-hand medusa isn't so bad. And a mirror image of a symbol would be harder to read, too. Might not even be effective, assuming the symbol isn't symmetric.
I'd impose some penalties on people trying to look at the world through mirrors all the time. In fact, if looking via a mirror is not awkward for you, then maybe they also don't help you against visual dangers...
Since this symbol is activated by touch, trying disable device it will trigger it. It's effects may not take. Once activated, no penalties apply, since you don't need to make any additional saves.
I don't think mirrors would help since it is line of sight. However, there is a range limit to the symbol. The effect is a 60' burst. If you can disable from > 60', you are free to look without consequence.
Dispel Magic can make it non-functional for a short time if it is not active. If it is active, is can deactivate it for the remaining duration of the symbol's activation.
Protection from Evil will prevent the symbol from exercising control if the caster of the symbol is evil. Given the demons placing it, that is a safe bet.
Erase can defeat it also.
/cevah
Thanks for the responses, guys.
Since this symbol is activated by touch, trying disable device it will trigger it.
If an object like a symbol is triggered when touched by a person, is it still triggered when handled with tools that allow the user to avoid touching it with his hands?
I don't think mirrors would help since it is line of sight.
I used mirrors because of the clause that they have to be looking "at" the symbol to trigger it, which is more than just line-of-sight. The logic seems the same when handling a creature with a gaze attack by using a mirror - you are not looking "at" the creature - you are looking "at" the mirror.
Dispel Magic can make it non-functional for a short time...
Yes, but can you throw a dispel magic behind you over your shoulder using a mirror?
Protection from Evil will prevent the symbol...
Indeed, and someone in the party has the communal version. But the party has no way of knowing what kind of symbol it is, and unless you can detect magic from beyond 60' you can't identify the symbol without looking at it.
1. What penalties would a rogue face when trying to disable a trap without looking at it? Such as using a mirror?1. Typically a -2 Circumstance penalty is a fair ruling in situations where things aren't favorable (as a GM determines). Looking at mirror use from dealing with Gaze attacks, you could also apply a flat 20% 'miss' chance that he messes up...
I think I would go with the 20% miss chance here. Having to look through a mirror seems a bit more severe than a normal -2 to me.
2. Could a spellcaster cast a targeted spell behind him by using a mirror?2. I would say 'yes' assuming he knew he was looking in a mirror...
OK, fair enough.
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In the case of the symbol, I would say using a mirror to look at it, does count as viewing the symbol.
If that is the case, how does a rogue disable a symbol without triggering it? Blindfolded? There must be a way or there would be no point listing a DC to disable it.
You don't necessarily trigger a symbol by disabling it. Disable Device doesn't necessitate you touching the trap, or at least in a manner that would set it off.
So, questions:
1. What penalties would a rogue face when trying to disable a trap without looking at it? Such as using a mirror?
2. Could a spellcaster cast a targeted spell behind him by using a mirror?
I recognize there may not be much RAW here so I wouldn't mind hearing how other GMs would wing it.
Having gone through the 'can a rogue detect a trap on the other side of a door that is activated by line of sight?' thread - you did correctly - in general trapspotter should work (based on overwhelming feedback) where the rogue would be hit by the trap - so in other words - always.
To your questions:
1. None - it's assumed the rogue 'disable' kit includes things like long sticks and mirrors to handle this kind of situation - if there was a penalty to disable a symbol it would be in the disable DC already.
2. Yes.
If a rogue successfully finds a trap he should be able to disarm it without triggering it.
A fun thing to do with this (on a successful disarm check) is "you successfully disable it - tell me how you did it" and see what your players come up with.
Since this symbol is activated by touch, trying disable device it will trigger it.If an object like a symbol is triggered when touched by a person, is it still triggered when handled with tools that allow the user to avoid touching it with his hands?
If anything touches it, it becomes activated. I can see it not being activated by dust falling on it, but a purposeful act to deactivate it I think would activate it.
I could also see that if you make the DC on your first attempt, you could be considered to deactivate it even as it activates. Meaning you are safe. Missing by 5 definitely activates it. Between those values, would be more a GM call.
/cevah
1. What penalties would a rogue face when trying to disable a trap without looking at it? Such as using a mirror?1. None - it's assumed the rogue 'disable' kit includes things like long sticks and mirrors to handle this kind of situation - if there was a penalty to disable a symbol it would be in the disable DC already.
I would assume that yes, a set of thieves' tools would have things like that, but I don't buy that there should be no penalty.
Consider this: Imagine that there are two symbol of persuasion spells in place in the dungeon. Symbol A is placed on a door and set to trigger when someone passes through the portal. Symbol B is set to go off when anyone looks at or touches it.
Since the disable device DC is based on the spell level the DC is the same for both. But the rogue can safely approach, look at, and handle symbol A as long as he doesn't pass through the portal. To disable symbol B though he has to avert his eyes and do whatever he has to do without the symbol thinking it has been touched.
It doesn't make sense to me that the check to disable the two should be the same.
2. Could a spellcaster cast a targeted spell behind him by using a mirror?2. Yes.
Can you give me more details? Is this RAW or a ruling? And if it is a ruling what is your logic?
If a rogue successfully finds a trap he should be able to disarm it without triggering it.
I agree with this in principle, but it is based on a roll. So what penalties should there be to the roll?
A fun thing to do with this (on a successful disarm check) is "you successfully disable it - tell me how you did it" and see what your players come up with.
If I was the player I would probably say something like: "I take out a vial of iron filings and lead powder soaked in imp's blood. With an angelhair brush I paint a widdershins spiral over the symbol."
When I presented the problem to my players I was hoping to come up with something interesting, but they didn't.
If anything touches it, it becomes activated. I can see it not being activated by dust falling on it, but a purposeful act to deactivate it I think would activate it.
I could also see that if you make the DC on your first attempt, you could be considered to deactivate it even as it activates. Meaning you are safe. Missing by 5 definitely activates it. Between those values, would be more a GM call.
/cevah
On the one hand, I can envision a rogue with a high enough disable device knowing that a specific material handled in a specific way might not activate a symbol even when it touches the symbol.
But your "deactivate before activation" idea works too.
If a rogue successfully finds a trap he should be able to disarm it without triggering it.I agree with this in principle, but it is based on a roll. So what penalties should there be to the roll?
Why should there be a penalty? surely any assumed penalty is already factored into the DC for disarming magical traps? If there was supposed to be an additional penalty to disarming magical traps I would have expected to see some mention of it somewhere.
That said, a couple of thoughts (some more useful than others) -
There is always the GM's best friend of -2 for unfavourable circumstances. Just justify it (hard to reach, badly positioned, poor visibility).
With a max DC of 34 I guess if you want to make the higher level spells more challenging relative to a superior lock (DC40) you could houserule the DC to 25+double the spell level (max DC43).
Or maybe in your world there is an optional shielding on many magical traps that increases the DC by 1-4 or more.
Increase the DC of the perception check to find the trap, if they can't see it they can't stop it. I have given -10 to find a trap that was above the door on the blindside. Also in my campaigns 'magic aura' is standard for all magic traps, detect magic simply will not work.
I like your example, exactly the sort of thing I hope to hear.
Thanks for the responses, guys.
Since this symbol is activated by touch, trying disable device it will trigger it.If an object like a symbol is triggered when touched by a person, is it still triggered when handled with tools that allow the user to avoid touching it with his hands?
If the check succeeds, you disable the device. If it fails by 4 or less, you have failed but can try again. If you fail by 5 or more, something goes wrong. If the device is a trap, you spring it. If you’re attempting some sort of sabotage, you think the device is disabled, but it still works normally.
Emphasis mine.
Disable device will not trigger the trap unless the attempt is failed by 5 or more. This applies to magical traps as well as mundane traps.