Feat Retraining question.


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

If I get a specific bonus feat as part of a class, can I retrain it to another feat?

For example, the Musket Master Gunslinger archetype gains Rapid Reload (Muskets) at level 1 as a bonus feat. Can I retrain it for sometime else?

Shadow Lodge

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First off, I think we all know that the intention is no, you can't retrain something you don't get to choose into something else.

But in case we really need to argue this:

Retraining wrote:

Feat

You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Note that this retraining is unrelated to the fighter ability to learn a new bonus feat in place of an old one at certain class levels. That class ability is free, happens instantly when the character gains an appropriate fighter level, doesn't require a trainer, and can happen only once for any appropriate fighter level. Retraining a feat requires you to spend gp, takes time, requires a trainer, and can happen as often as you want.

A musket master can certainly retrain Rapid Reload (musket)... into Rapid Reload (musket).

Scarab Sages

SCPRedMage wrote:

First off, I think we all know that the intention is no, you can't retrain something you don't get to choose into something else.

But in case we really need to argue this:

Retraining wrote:

Feat

You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Note that this retraining is unrelated to the fighter ability to learn a new bonus feat in place of an old one at certain class levels. That class ability is free, happens instantly when the character gains an appropriate fighter level, doesn't require a trainer, and can happen only once for any appropriate fighter level. Retraining a feat requires you to spend gp, takes time, requires a trainer, and can happen as often as you want.

A musket master can certainly retrain Rapid Reload (musket)... into Rapid Reload (musket).

Thank you very much. I wasn't sure off-hand. And yeah, intention is pretty clear, so I wasn't thinking I should be able to, just wishfully wondering if it I could...

Sovereign Court

Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

Scarab Sages

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

In PFS, it would not be an issue. The PP cost alone would balance it. 5 or so PP per feat swap. Yeah, could do it, but that means you can only really swap every 3, or so, sessions. And that's a lot of prestige which would normally be spent on other, just as useful, tweaks to the character.

Regarding Casual play, all GMs I've played under were totally fine with players swapping any class feats (or animial companion/familiar starting feats) with ones you'd use. Some GMs even grant bonus feats, just because they think the Pathfinder system is too restrictive of feats (especially the feats which don't really function in combat at all).

Anyway, I'm not debating this topic anymore, I got my answer above. Just saying, it's not about balance.

Sovereign Court

Changing one choice from a set of options for a bonus feat for another - no problem.

Changing a bonus feat to any feat, that would be a problem. Because if your class has some mandatory bonus feats that you don't actually use, that means you just gained a free feat.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thankfully this is why they make, and continue to make, Archetypes for ^w^


Ascalaphus wrote:
Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

There's a FAQ for that...

Quote:

Fighter: Can I learn a new fighter bonus feat in place of one of my armor proficiency feats?

No. Despite wording in the Armor Proficiency feats, fighters (and other classes) have a class ability that grants proficiency in those armors--it doesn't actually grant those specific feats. Therefore, the fighter's ability to learn a new feat in place of another feat does not apply to these proficiencies.

Sovereign Court

What about retraining class/archetype granted feats that use a specific target to change the target? (ex. my Spellscar Drifter gets Rapid Reload at lvl 3, can I later retrain his current Rapid Reload (Pistol) to be Rapid Reload (Double Pistol) if I switched weapons)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
crashcanuck wrote:
What about retraining class/archetype granted feats that use a specific target to change the target? (ex. retaining Rapid Reload (Pistol) to Rapid Reload (Double Pistol))

Does the class/archetype give you a choice when getting Rapid Reload, or do you automatically get Rapid Reload (Pistol)?

Sovereign Court

Rysky wrote:
crashcanuck wrote:
What about retraining class/archetype granted feats that use a specific target to change the target? (ex. retaining Rapid Reload (Pistol) to Rapid Reload (Double Pistol))
Does the class/archetype give you a choice when getting Rapid Reload, or do you automatically get Rapid Reload (Pistol)?

You get the choice.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
crashcanuck wrote:
Rysky wrote:
crashcanuck wrote:
What about retraining class/archetype granted feats that use a specific target to change the target? (ex. retaining Rapid Reload (Pistol) to Rapid Reload (Double Pistol))
Does the class/archetype give you a choice when getting Rapid Reload, or do you automatically get Rapid Reload (Pistol)?
You get the choice.

Then yes, i'd say you'd get to retrain it. For an actual example, the Warpriest's first level ability Focus Weapon, that gives them Weapon Focus for a weapon of their choosing.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

Note though that having proficiency is not the same thing as having the proficiency feat. A fighter with proficiency in heavy armor does not have the Armor Proficiency (heavy) feat and thus could not trade it out even if it was allowed.

Grand Lodge

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

In PFS, it would not be an issue. The PP cost alone would balance it. 5 or so PP per feat swap. Yeah, could do it, but that means you can only really swap every 3, or so, sessions. And that's a lot of prestige which would normally be spent on other, just as useful, tweaks to the character.

Regarding Casual play, all GMs I've played under were totally fine with players swapping any class feats (or animial companion/familiar starting feats) with ones you'd use. Some GMs even grant bonus feats, just because they think the Pathfinder system is too restrictive of feats (especially the feats which don't really function in combat at all).

Anyway, I'm not debating this topic anymore, I got my answer above. Just saying, it's not about balance.

Holy crap. If I could spend 5 PP in PFS to retrain those two "feats" I'd be in heaven (although a hugely broken and cheesy smelling heaven). 5PP for a "free" feat? Hell yeah. Assume 2PP is 750g, so 5PP is 1875g. 1875g for any feat I qualify for? That would be super broken.

Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.
Note though that having proficiency is not the same thing as having the proficiency feat. A fighter with proficiency in heavy armor does not have the Armor Proficiency (heavy) feat and thus could not trade it out even if it was allowed.
The CRB begs to differ
Quote:

Armor Proficiency, Heavy (Combat)

You are skilled at wearing heavy armor.

Prerequisites: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency.
Benefit: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Normal: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Special: Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Same verbage for Tower Shield proficiency.


claudekennilol wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

In PFS, it would not be an issue. The PP cost alone would balance it. 5 or so PP per feat swap. Yeah, could do it, but that means you can only really swap every 3, or so, sessions. And that's a lot of prestige which would normally be spent on other, just as useful, tweaks to the character.

Regarding Casual play, all GMs I've played under were totally fine with players swapping any class feats (or animial companion/familiar starting feats) with ones you'd use. Some GMs even grant bonus feats, just because they think the Pathfinder system is too restrictive of feats (especially the feats which don't really function in combat at all).

Anyway, I'm not debating this topic anymore, I got my answer above. Just saying, it's not about balance.

Holy crap. If I could spend 5 PP in PFS to retrain those two "feats" I'd be in heaven (although a hugely broken and cheesy smelling heaven). 5PP for a "free" feat? Hell yeah. Assume 2PP is 750g, so 5PP is 1875g. 1875g for any feat I qualify for? That would be super broken.

Ravingdork wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Otherwise you'd have lots of fighters queuing up to ditch heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.
Note though that having proficiency is not the same thing as having the proficiency feat. A fighter with proficiency in heavy armor does not have the Armor Proficiency (heavy) feat and thus could not trade it out even if it was allowed.
The CRB begs to differ
Quote:

Armor Proficiency, Heavy (Combat)

You are skilled at wearing heavy armor.

Prerequisites: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency.
Benefit: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Normal: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Special: Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

Same verbage for Tower Shield...

Once again...

Knight who says Meh wrote:

There's a FAQ for that...

Quote:

Fighter: Can I learn a new fighter bonus feat in place of one of my armor proficiency feats?

No. Despite wording in the Armor Proficiency feats, fighters (and other classes) have a class ability that grants proficiency in those armors--it doesn't actually grant those specific feats. Therefore, the fighter's ability to learn a new feat in place of another feat does not apply to these proficiencies.

Grand Lodge

I'm aware. It's my opinion that that's just an overzealous reaction that answered the question more than what's required. Until they actually errata the CRB to reflect that, it's incredibly clear that fighters do have those feats, they just can't be retrained.


claudekennilol wrote:
I'm aware. It's my opinion that that's just an overzealous reaction that answered the question more than what's required. Until they actually errata the CRB to reflect that, it's incredibly clear that fighters do have those feats, they just can't be retrained.

So you knew ravingdork was right but decided to correct him with the wrong information?

Sovereign Court

Rysky wrote:
crashcanuck wrote:
Rysky wrote:
crashcanuck wrote:
What about retraining class/archetype granted feats that use a specific target to change the target? (ex. retaining Rapid Reload (Pistol) to Rapid Reload (Double Pistol))
Does the class/archetype give you a choice when getting Rapid Reload, or do you automatically get Rapid Reload (Pistol)?
You get the choice.
Then yes, i'd say you'd get to retrain it. For an actual example, the Warpriest's first level ability Focus Weapon, that gives them Weapon Focus for a weapon of their choosing.

Here's hoping the Dragoon Pistol from the Villain Codex is allowed in PFS then so I can retrain my Rapid Reload.

Grand Lodge

Knight who says Meh wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
I'm aware. It's my opinion that that's just an overzealous reaction that answered the question more than what's required. Until they actually errata the CRB to reflect that, it's incredibly clear that fighters do have those feats, they just can't be retrained.
So you knew ravingdork was right but decided to correct him with the wrong information?

You're welcome to keep talking at me, but I've said all I have to say on the subject so you'll get no more responses about it.


claudekennilol wrote:
I'm aware. It's my opinion that that's just an overzealous reaction that answered the question more than what's required. Until they actually errata the CRB to reflect that, it's incredibly clear that fighters do have those feats, they just can't be retrained.

Or it's a recognition that the feats were inappropriately worded to start with, since the class entries never make mention of the classes getting the feats.

That appears to be the understanding and recognition the game designers have. I'll side with them on this one.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Wow. *Shakes head in disbelief*

Scarab Sages

claudekennilol wrote:


Holy crap. If I could spend 5 PP in PFS to retrain those two "feats" I'd be in heaven (although a hugely broken and cheesy smelling heaven). 5PP for a "free" feat? Hell yeah. Assume 2PP is 750g, so 5PP is 1875g. 1875g for any feat I qualify for? That would be super broken.

First, it's 5PP each feat, not total. So 10PP to retrain two feats.

And it only works on 1-way like that. You can't pay gold to buy PP. There's fixed quanity of PP any character acquire.

Average would be about 2 PP per successful session, with every 3 sessions granting a level. So with PFS only going to level 12, you have about 72PP as your potential gains.

However, before you decide 72 is a ton of PP, consider than when you die during a session, it's 16PP to cast Raise Dead, and another 8PP to remove both of the negative levels Raise Dead grants, and, if the Party doesn't retrieve your corpse, its another 5pp to acquire it (so a single death could cost 29PP). And this assumes all of this happens in a metropolis setting (costs go up by +5PP each task when done outside of a settlement of 5,000 or more. ).

So while spending 5PP on feat retraining sounds nice, it means you can really only retrain a single feat every level, and in doing so, can't likely afford other, more practical PP rewards.

Even IF heavy armor and tower shields counted as feats for a fighter, I don't think a frontline fighter would consider it worth the PP to was them on swapping feats, when they could save the PP for more practical purchases.

Sovereign Court

I think there's quite a few prerequisites for prestige classes worded as "feat: proficiency in X" that wouldn't work as intended if you decided that classes gained "proficiency in X" instead of "feat: proficiency in X".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

claudekennilol wrote:
I'm aware. It's my opinion that that's just an overzealous reaction that answered the question more than what's required. Until they actually errata the CRB to reflect that, it's incredibly clear that fighters do have those feats, they just can't be retrained.

Or considered to have them in other beneficial ways.

It's more like "have the benefits of". When written, there was no consideration to the concept of "they have the feats" vs "they have the benefits of the feats".


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think there's quite a few prerequisites for prestige classes worded as "feat: proficiency in X" that wouldn't work as intended if you decided that classes gained "proficiency in X" instead of "feat: proficiency in X".

I haven't looked through all of them, but I skimmed a few and it appears to me that proficiencies are called out differently. The armor ones tend to say "Special: Proficiency in [x]" (e.g., Stalwart Defender) or "Armor Proficiency: Must be proficient with [x]" (e.g., Celestial Knight), and the weapons ones usually say "Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with [x]" (e.g., Eldritch Knight). I haven't yet found one that has the requirement listed under "Feats", nor have I found one that says "Must have the [x] Proficiency Feat".

That's not to say there might be some different wording out there, but from my quick look that would seem to be the exception (and enough of one for me to chalk it up to mistaken drafting on the part of the prestige class).

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Average would be about 2 PP per successful session, with every 3 sessions granting a level. So with PFS only going to level 12, you have about 72PP as your potential gains.

A couple slight comments. 2PP is the max per session, and definitely not the average these days. Perhaps 1.5 is a decent average.

To get from level 1 to level 12 takes 33XP (not 36), or 33 sessions (not accounting for AP credit, strange boons, or moving at half speed), so when a character makes 12th level, one could reasonably expect him to have earned 49.5PP.

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