Sneaksy Dragon's page

I have no need of the campaign map pack (the name mislead me to believe it was the adventure path pdf which i actually wanted) is there anyway i can exchange them and pay the difference?

personally i would like to see different skill caps per training level and still use skill points. so many of these games are going to static bonus creep, its not dynamic or creatively customizable. please dont take my skill points away from me.

what if instead we went with a Primary secondary and untrained categories for skills? have untrained never advance unless it becomes secondary or primary through feats or multiclassing. Primary can go up to legendary, secondary can be proficient and untrained doesnt increase. i personally would still like to see discretionary points be be gained every level to flesh out what your character has been doing and have their skill rolls reflect that after they level (maybe the barbarian does learn to enjoy giving speeches and puts a few points in the untrained performance skill. maybe at some point she will take a feat to make it secondary or even multiclass bard.)

do that for attacks too, wizards dont need to shoot crossbows anyways...

from scratch is a bit much in my honest opinion, got some great art, some solid concepts for how combat is ran, and interesting set up for character creation. i think big changes can still happen (remember from back during the original pathfinder playtest, still vexed athletics wasnt a skill :-p) but the developers have to REALLY think the player base isnt gonna get on board.

give cha back to halflings, goblins should be dex and con

Are you ok with a 10th level Wizard untrained in athletics with a 10 strength, ie +8 routinely beating a level 1 barbarian with 18 strength, +5 in an arm wrestling match? Are we ok with every single higher level character obsoleting the other specialists lower level accomplishments. Are we ok with a high level character being better at everything than any lower level specialist, often untrained?

This specifically is game killer to me. destroys immersion. adding levels to everything removes customization, nerfs skills characters, and was a major reason i cant seem to get into dungeons and dragons recently. i know we are trying to do something different here...but lets not copy my most hated version of D&D please...

Off topic question. and maybe a dumb question but are there "cab" like services on absolam station? im sure there are (slow) Elevators but traveling through the entire station on foot must be killer. are there shuttles from from the arm to the eye? just curious for when i run and how i explain the station.

MisterDoug wrote:

My ideal party composition is 6 or fewer people who get along and can have fun playing the game. Class composition is secondary.

Thank you for completely disregarding the idea behind this thread, this was a useful addition to this conversation.

Fighter type: Paladin: great evil slaying power and self heal.

Rogue type: Archeologist Bard: top tier trapsmith plus great lore

Arcanist type: this ones tricky and controversial but i would go Sage Sorcerer, I prefer spontanious Caster with well oiled spell choices. sometimes you need to spam a spell.

Cleric type: Merciful Healer Cleric: fantastic healing potential (used to be Life oracle but really like the 50% boost to healing spells.

Yeah. As some from the UK am fascinated by mezo America pre colony stuff, so hopefully you find some good stuff and spread the word

I still have the 2nd ed Jakandor setting material. not really native american but some of the elements are there. It was a great genre with a war over an island between a dying undead using Chaonti and the shamanistic, animal totem clans of the Knorrman. It was fantastic because the neither the Choanti and the Knorrman are the good guys or the bad guys, just different. also giant undead constructs vs Totem golem mechs!

Liz Courts wrote:

let's not bag.

*shakes fist*

So im gonna repeat something for sure but heres my feeling on it summed up...

the initial scenario of rolling stats and then them rolling a 5 and trying to find a dump stat is understandable, its why my group uses the less exciting but waaaay more fair point buy system.

but i dont like pcs dumping charisma for 2 main reasons, for one it normally lets them feel that they have a license to be utter d-bags to the other players, jerk players dont need more of an excuse, and second the points they save dropping charisma goes toward them min maxing their combat abilities so not only are they jerks but they are show stealing jerks.

my solutions to this is pretty simple. eventually a shadow or other charisma damaging creature will appear and one shot them. 5 charisma is 40% one shot from a regular shadow. the fear of this element generally is all a powergamer needs to know to not super drain their charisma. I also make them roll to assist diplomacy even if they dont want too if they interact with a social scene at all ( if they want to wait outside and not get to roleplay with the story its their loss of fun.) I generally have NPCs overlooks them and talk to other more appealing players and this can bug some players that want the points for a low charisma but still want to roleplay a much higher charisma.

Ultimately I try to be fair in my games and not penalize any low stat too much but when a PC has ANY stat at 7 or less its going to define a lot of my narrating of their events.

fighters are mechamically boring in game. since there is no micromanagement of powers you just do the optimal effect every round, give me swashbuckler panache or gunslinger grit any day of the week over weaker abilities you can just spam and requires little thought.

btw level dipping a couple levels of fighter does not make you a fighter. your flavor is from your main class and your build REQUIRES you to pick fighter levels

even with rhino hide adding to a single attack, 5 attacks from a large sized creature is incredibly powerful (maybe to powerful....may limit it to 3 attacks in my games...) but to add a charging paladin lance smite to the mix......you do way to much damage for your CR (i guess ill need to throw antipaladins on fiendish tigers to balance it ;P)

outright banned hex modifying feats, ( for slumber and misfortune at least) those where just sorely unneeded

plus it should have devotion ( so will saves should be better) as long as you dont get your lion a saddle of resistance( +50% more cost due to nontypical body slot) or protective items then its not that bad. my group always pimps their rides so to speak and there rides are as good as some of the characters (better than some)

My party has a Ranger who rides a camel (animal companion), a Zen archer riding a panther, Paladin riding a Dire Wolf (bonded mount) Paladin riding a Horse with Savage Warrior levels (bonded mount), a dog-riding cavalier, and a werewolf who moves faster than anything else in the party.

your group sure likes your mounts!

slumber is slightly unbalanced at the moment imho. a at will combat ender is too powerful (didnt paizo plan to get rid of save or be CDG?)
as of right now im making very slight changes instead of outlawing. right now im saying that it affects creatures with hitdie equal to or less than the witch

not to be a stick in the mud, but i would only allow a paladin to have a lion for a mount in the most epic homebrew games ( while others are playing trolls and summoners^^) there is a reason only certain mounts where listed in the entry, because you are already a incredibly potent boss slayer and adding a pouncing ball of damage does not seem fair.

this is just my opinion. (axebeaks are more balanced and awesome!)

sometimes the table get alittle to full with people with army characters( character jam pacted with animal companions, cohorts, summons, improved familiars and Eidolons )

the UM both helped and hurt my problem. The synthesist finally gives me a summoner option that doesnt add two more characters to my party (and gets my iron man fix on, magic missiles+ wingless flight+ armored body= fantasy super hero^^)

everything but the evolutionist just causes me to have a big-ol-migraine ><

the spell likes should be much more expensive if they have durations (rather than +4 dodge bonus for 1 round, i get +2 to +5 natural armor for many minutes)

anyone think that some of these abilities are horribly balanced? i ki for one ROUND of power attack is not balanced with MINUTES of barkskin. all of the spelllike abilities with durations are by far better (minus maybe whirlwind)

will anyone take powerattack as it stands?

Umbral Reaver wrote:

I've had a kobold character in my group. He got a level of expert as his first level to make up for the weakness and he turned out fine.

That's actually not a bad solution for Kobolds and Goblins. Give them one level of an NPC class, and then one Class Level, and call them first level characters.

no no no, goblins are PERFECTLY FINE 0ecl monsters, its the kobolds that need the help (stats are utterly horrible) goblins may be over all +0 stat mod but they do get +4 to dex and there other abilites are great! (one of the best stealth characters in the game.)

Summoners may be too powerful. The strongest ability they have is that there summon is disposable, it comes back the next day. IF you have the right 2nd level spell it will come back the round after next. Its nearly as powerful as a Fighter and doesnt have that pesky mortality thing costing you thousands of gold to bring them back. ( sure it comes back at half hitpoints but if you have Augment summons....which you probably do....then he comes back from the dead EVEN STRONGER.

Any class that can cast a spell AND Full attack needs to be well balanced ( magus seems okay because he doesnt have two pools of HP^^)cleric and most spellcaster have to CHOOSE to either to buff or attack. Druids and Summoners are an aberration to this natural spellcaster balance.

and haste at 4th level and black tentacle at 6th is questionably powerful.

only usable when crit, STOPS any performance already up and gives a one time +1 bonus to allies and a small amount of temp hitpoints. this seems like it would annoy me if this happened because it would end my high level inspire courage.

what am i missing with this ability? it seems like its more a nussance than a benefit (might as well stick with the unobtrusive fascinate)

do i get a cr5 if i slay you^^ ( what are trolls cr anyways?^^)

truthfully though, i dont find the armor and weapon mastery weak. its actually VERY strong. plus fighters NOW have feats worth having that are not from obscure splat books from WOTC later years. The CMB system seems to work well too ( and the later trip feat is AWESOME)

Sure they could be 4+ skill points but that variant exist in the pathfinder campaign setting. any stronger and they will give the paladin a run for its money ( APG may bring the Barbarian back from obsolete)

Wizards getting d6 still wounds me, but atleast casting in melee isnt a joke

dont forget AOE for swarms, thew will kill unprepared parties
two person party i would advise is paladin and an alchemist. both can self heal, one can have a tough mount for extra hp, and the alchemist can brew potion, deal with traps, deal with AOE.

if you have to convert one as a fighter /barbarian. then the other character should be some sort of cleric (oracle of nature with boon companion wouldnt be bad either) Druid is definitely an option too (minor area affect spells so swarms dont eat you) i would advise someone to cross class ranks in disable device (highest dex char) and get goggles of minute seeing to deal with traps.

and gestalt is always an option (a Fighter/Paladin and a Alchemist/Cleric would be awesome!)

We had a GM that ran EVERY encounter without stats.

Honestly, with a good GM I prefer it that way. He knew the critter he wanted us to fight and how long he wanted it to be on stage. It had JUST enough "Hit Points" to stay JUST that long... It would use its abilities and damage us JUST enough, though sometimes pretty darn close to death.

It was exciting, it was challenging. We NEVER knew for sure what it could do... takes metaplaying right out. You bring a Dire Lion against a PC party and they immediately start metagaming... it has XX hp, does this for attacks and we need to hit AC X... what fun is that!

oh god no! so we all can play gnome Fighters with 5STR using whips and the combat is just as deadly as it would be for a party of 30str Halfdragon/halfogre barbarians?! when do the monsters die? when the favorite character of the GM hits it? why use dice then if they mean nothing. just describe your attack and the DM will decide if thats will be the attack to slay the beast.

thats just lazy DMing (many good Storytellers just dont want to put the effort into making the mechanics match the story in their head)

some options:

1. goblins are born deranged and psycho (have a goblin adult release a "goblinbrood swarm" on the party, have them so mad that the eat the adults and anything else in the way out (good reason they would keep them in cages^^)

2. they are already released and run from the adventurers when they enter the room ( this is the easy button when you dont want drama over issue, well that and just have the room empty)

3. they are CN right now being trained to become CE (goblins may think cruelty makes you strong, so they torment the little buggers to get them good and nasty!) then what do they do with a dozen immature and needy big mouthed monster babies!

its really about whats the parties comfort zone< and is it worth pushing it to add drama

.....side note< as a gm i would have already have one shotted you with a shadow....i wouldnt be able to help myself ^^ (shadows pours from the floor and walls around you. one attacks each of you. i roll a 5 to hit you (5+4 touch i hit) now i roll 1d4 str drain (2 your str is 0 and you are dead and coming back in a couple rounds as a shadow)

i like interesting builds but when they are sometimes too stackmastered...

I HATE evil campaigns (any evil game i play in I make a LN character and ENFORCE NEUTRALITY) Im about to play in a Kingmaker campaign< and when the DM said it was going to be a Evil campaign i about left. why the Frag to i want to come to a already messed up land and spread further wrongness? so im playing LN and bringing strict but fair law to the land (any evil character screwing up will have to answer to me and my eilodon)

Threaten them back! all but one of them, and tell him hes okay and that your guys could be allies. pick someone who hasn't threatened you. cast buffs on him and him alone until the apologize for "their characters throwing threatening glances your way" (so even if they said it out of character, it was still said and if not in jest then they need to make bluff checks to hide there contempt of you)

you've ran into the endgame battle already because they know that if they don't kill you now< being a sorcerer, you will far out-power them in the end fight (so kill you before you get really nasty spells)

I deal with real life badguys every day, why do i want my free time involved with them too?

the minion barbarian orc rushes at you! umfortunately for him he stubs his toe on a gardening tool and falls to the floor defeated!

one hp badguys are a lame concept, why the frag does the gnome dagger user with a 5 str (1d3-3) have the same capacity to kill as a 26 str ORc barbarian with a greatsword (2d6+12)? it just breaks my suspension of disbelief.

minimum HP or average low hp would possibly be fine (lower the CR for them) just as DM using max hp badguys should give MORE xp.

the real question is "are apes using weapons significantly better than any other companions form of attack?" i would say unbalancingly so. Ive played this build at 5th level and it is WAY BETTER than even a pounce big cat. weapons are cheaper than amulets of mighty fist. at later levels you always find large size martial weapons you cant use. at low levels the multiple attacks may have a momentary damage edge< but that quickly goes away.

IF a certain build is the only build powergamers use then it is too good and prolly need to be modified (this ones easy because you just have to say "NO" to it.)

Aesthetically i could maybe see greatclub, but since i dont want to jip eagles with punchdaggers ill just disallow int 3 animals from using weapons in my game.

i agree with the OP< why do extra meaningless buffing just so your pretty numbers are bigger. id advise working more on interesting plot and less on re-figuring badguys so they match your bloated heroes.

great minds think alike^^ my group has been playing with cards much like these for about two years ( we have bane and boon cards that add or subtract +1 to +5 or -1 to -5 to a die roll) we got cards like "quick and the dead" all damage is double til combat is over...deadly, "borismired" based of the ill fated tolkien character, all enemies attack the same target for a round and many other less deadly and more fun cards (annoying follower, illegal opportunity, sudden weather change) , cards like these really can spice up games (especially when someone needs a sidescene ran and you dont want everyone else to be bored, everyone is junior dungeon master^^)

my group also has been using Athletics and Acrobatics (pretty much the most staple houserule)

mites are cr1/4 due to their threat level being pretty low ( their vermin minion is the real threat) but the special abilities that they get are more than balanced as a 1st level race

Kobold, however, are just weak as pcs and npcs (not weak enough for a bonus pc class level tho)

for balance reasons i would advise using the "adding PC class to a monster" section and give them a +4 to two stats +2 to two stats no adjustment to one and -2 to the last stat (instead of standard pointbuy and rolling) this balances the normally unfair stat "bonanza" monsters as pc get (i also advise checking ac and making sure it not grossly higher than normal pcs)

sidenote: i am all for the kobolds getting a free NPC LEVEL to make up for their weak racial abilities (no need to make them megamages) and mites DO NOT need a level bump (climb movement rate and DR is plenty to make up for subpar mentals)

just my two cents.

Certainly the paladin has excellent saves but how does he have a better animal companion then a druid? Heavy horse doesnt even come close to the big cat in terms of combat strength. Or are you among those that allow the paladin to use most anything for a mount? I think that represents a very big power swing.

I admit my own experience is primarily with the paladin having the weapon bond instead of the mount bond, as my group tends to have alot of encounters...

the arguement about large size creatures not fitting in dungeons is kinda moot. monsters get larger as you level(in general) so the dungeon layout expands. besides that the paladin can summon his mount as a full round action, the druids animal companion is going to have to wait if it wants in. plus the mount starts with a 6 INT so you dont need handle animal< you can just talk to it AND at 11th level it becomes a celestial animal with DR, smite of its own,spell resistance and energy resistance. sure the large cat is a one round blender but it really doesnt have staying power to compare. 11th on its pretty rock solid,

side note: be careful with your +5 holy, keen, Greatsword of speed< your just begging to be sundered. then your screwed

Sneaksy Dragon wrote:

smite is too powerful, period. too powerful for summons and too powerful for paladins. when you have a paladin and summoner in every game, that should tell you something. im nerfing smite by disregarding the double smite damage vs evil outsiders evil dragons and undead. summons will get the one round smite the half celestial gets. bypassing DR is a powerful enough ability without the super-sized damage< just too much! (that's not talking about the bonus to hit and ac!)

also the standard action summoning for summoners is broken as well< needs fixing.

Have you been reading the post that show all of the paladin's negatives?

Have you even seen a pally in real play?
If you have what happened to make you afraid of it?

Ive read all your post and was not impressed with your defenses< and i would not be posting if i had not seen a paladin in real play (unlike some who like to dwell in the conceptual) a poorly built paladin rules every important battle and does as well as any other character in every other battle ( fantastic saves and a better animal companion than a druid help with that) im not afraid of them, they are just not balanced at 5th level+ (summoner isn't balanced at even level one) ive had a paladin played in every game ive played since the PDF came out and its been a noticeable the power level difference. we have played ROTRL, Crimson throne and a smattering of homebrew games, my gaming group is pretty unanimous about this issue

smite is too powerful, period. too powerful for summons and too powerful for paladins. when you have a paladin and summoner in every game, that should tell you something. im nerfing smite by disregarding the double smite damage vs evil outsiders evil dragons and undead. summons will get the one round smite the half celestial gets. bypassing DR is a powerful enough ability without the super-sized damage< just too much! (that's not talking about the bonus to hit and ac!)

also the standard action summoning for summoners is broken as well< needs fixing.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

The thing to rememeber is that the Pathfinder classes are supposed to compete on even footing with the newer 3.5 classes like the Beguiler and the Duskblade. If you take the 3.5e beguiler and just give it MORE STUFF, then you've broken the parity again and need to power up the Pathfinder classes again... this can go on ad infinitum.

thanks you for adding that, conversion does not mean inflation. these classes are the reason for the core bump. that being said you can make whatever house rule changes you want, just be careful when things get unbalanced.

i can safely say that the Summoner is NOT balanced. The summoner himself needs to be 1d6 tertiary BAB. and Augment summons is too good for them, it might as well be a mandatory pick up. Since most of his spells are buffs he doesnt need a high casting attribute, and he doesnt need INT OR WIS so he can just max his physicals. a summoner with a good str, his eilodon, and a augment summoned CELESTIAL beast really seem to be a one man three person party in both games ive seen them played. (the celestial template is now sick with the smite! pouncing jaguars smiting with +4 to str and con, OH MY!

im already pretty sure going to house rule the change (the summoner may be a off limits classs like Warblade and Factotem) Just letting you all know how our playtests have gone.

(still hoping for a errata to make athletics a skill, rangers and fighters that suck jumping over pot holes.....suck)

Shad0wdrag0n wrote:

The idea that rogues should be high dps combat monsters makes me laugh. If you want to play someone who's good at killing stuff play a fighter or a spellcaster. Rogues should be skill-based characters. They should be the ones sneaking around, disarming traps, picking locks, etc. They should not be front-line fighters. The whole idea behind rogues being able to sneak attack is silly. It's an ability more suited to assassins than rogues. In fact, the way rogues are going you might as well just call them assassins. But, I guess this is D&D, where anything not tweaked for combat is immediately deemed "useless".

Yep, rogues should be doing nothing but plumbing their navels for belly lint in 90% of published adventures.

Gotcha.

so sad that damage is the only thing that entertains you guys and girls. I often have way more fun busting locks so that reinforcements cant come in, sleight of handing wands off wizards that are still in combat, freeing captives and leading them out while my friends hold off the attackers, and yeah< backstabbing a BBEG who is on his last leg but is about to do something dangerous. and thats less than half the night< the rest is roleplaying and abusing my surplus of highly usefull out of combat skills.

there are two types of games i play in, in one everyone powergames their characters to roll through combats that are MUCH higher CR then them too level up at obscene paces, and games that are at CR, with more plot twist and side objectives than "just kill everything in building X"

I much prefer the later. Sure i love to level, but its the game session im enjoying not the level up after game. ive played long enough to prefer the scenic route.

no interest in evil characters, I recently played in one where me and my friend played lawful neutral mercs who where just willing to take any job. the two hyped up new gamers relished the chance to play evil (so much so that it seriously made me question there mental stability) one made a shade assassin who simply wanted to slay everyone on the material plane ( later my character ripped him limb from limb because he was too crazy and was bringing too much heat from all the bodies of the innocent behind us) and the other was a CE gnome enchanter who styled himself as a SAW/JOKER character. he enchanted people to do horrible things to each other.

one time we were traveling to a job in a different town< it grew late and we saw a fire from a camp along the road. it was a father a mother and their child. the father was standing watch and the child and mother were sleeping. before me and my merc friend could even start a conversation, the shade appeared behind him and slit his throat. he started to go after the women when the gnome got all huffy, he went over and charmed the mother and forced her to kill her daughter, she grabbed a big rock and finished the deal. the gnome wanted to let her live so she could later realize what she had done and be tormented for the rest of her life.....but the shade killed her the next round. they then got into a big verbal fight as me and my buddy just stood there in disbelief at how crazy these two guys were.

I was so happy when two sessions later i slew the shade with my characters own two hands (i was a mage slayer and his shadow powers where useless against me. and the gnome tried to get a new toy, a 15lvl dwarf fighter. the dwarf made his save and grew very angry at the gnome. a crit later the gnome was dead as well.

yeah i know these two are novice evil players< but even the true genius evil players are still just wanting to play themselves without limits in game, RARELY is there any true depth. i prefer generally good souls that sometimes have to make horrible decisions and live with it, so much better drama.

Sneaksy Dragon wrote:

come to the light side, we dont stab each other in the back, AND cookies!

But but but...I have such a good interest rate at Evil Empire Banking...they make a killing on Wall Street...

didnt you hear? Evil Empire Banking embezzled everyones money and now is living large in a non-extradition country with a rough trick named Todd.

he only wants to be undead for all of the immunites< all munchkins are the same. whats his cha and dont let him swap or sac his CON stat, he would never have made it that far without it. i LOVE toying with munchkins so i would give someone "invisbilty to undead" as a spell like ability^^. and give another "command undead" as a spell like ability.

then everyone gets a undead related special ability, he gets to BECOME undead and everyone else get better at dealing with undead^^ also dont make healing easy on him if he is allowed to become undead< its a major drawback to not have most good clerics willing to heal you.

I guess I am nothing but a bored white kid Sith fanboi tired of playing goody 2-shoes. I find morally ambiguous campaigns far more engaging than something black and white.

Let's kill some more orcs.
Why?
'cause they're evil. No one knows why, they just are.

i doubt youve ever played a real goody 2 shoes< most sith lovers act like they ve played THOUSANDS of paladins so there DM will get off their back for wanting to play a Neutral evil ranger. It sound more like you have a weak DM who just throws the Bestiary at you and expounds upon nothing. I dont blame you for your viewpoint if villagers are just as wicked (or personality-less) as the orcs. in my games most villagers are trying to just survive and dont really mean anyone real harm. Orcs on the otherhand have as much empathy as brains and love to inflict bodily pain and death on everything not born an orc!(in general, there are definitely tribes that break the norm) butchering unarmed defenseless peaceful people is not a "lifestyle choice" or "matter what their point of view is" its just wrong in any world.

come to the light side, we dont stab each other in the back, AND cookies!

the idea that villains are more interesting then heroes happens to be biased by how games are developed. OF COURSE the creative director is going to think that, because he develops dynamic and interesting ways for these villain to become villains, and designs environments to play up the drama. All the while the heroes are left blank for us to fill, and i dont know about you, most players i run into are NOT professional creative designers! so you have a vague legolas clone who has as much back story as the third storm trooper at the beginning of starwars, and several other poorly thought out ( but meticulously built!)PCs talking to a villian who had been written so well they might as well be the next hannibal lector. IT s just not fair^^

(side note: villainy has become too exalted lately , oh im morally GREY, im like an onions because i do horrible acts laced with some good ones, look at my layers. my psychosis makes me intriguing. blah blah blah. I run with some new gamers that bug me with all but saying that.)

I would LOVE to see a reason for improved feint to be used. (yay yay when the rogue is alone but we all know this is a group game) Flanking sneak attack is one of the WORST carry overs from 3.0, i, still trying to convince my gaming group to use the facing rules from unearthed arcana.

i say treat one enemy as invisible and you are not considered flanked by the other person.

(side note: i also reduce flanking sneak attack by a die< and increase flatfooted sneak attack by 2 die< so a third level rogue does a bonus 1d6 damage while flanking and a bonus 4d6 damage when they honestly have the enemy surprise and flatfooted< feint, successful stealth, going first in initiative. doing that promotes rogues doing actual roguey things, not walk with party, wait til fighter type engages foe, move to flank, rinse and repeat)

my first summoner idea was a immortal magic knight and his squire. I would roleplay mostly the knight even though hes the Summoned.

i believe you do not get or deliver sneak attack just because you are in a grapple (since the grapple conditions imparts a dex penalty but does not DEPRIVE YOU OF DEX) in 3.5 you were denied your dex to anyone except the being you were grappling, that has changed.

if you do not have blind fight (or darkvision) and grappling in complete darkness then you may actually get sneak attack (or get sneak attacked)