Summoners Unite!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

I play a summoner in my weekly game, with a bad-ass eidolon who's essentially a very angry fraggle. I was SO EXCITED about the new eidolon evolutions in Ultimate Magic, and sadly a little disappointed by them. I wonder if they'll be more physical/combat related evolutions in UC? Not really the place for it, but oh well.

I WAS, however, quite pleased with the summoner archetypes. particularly with the broodmaster and master summoner. Multiple summons is just plain cool. I'm particularly interested in attacking the baddies with a swarm of goblin dogs. mwahahahahaa

It was also nice to get spells that were SOMEWHAT more than just buffing,

Anyway, What are your thoughts on the summoner's treatment in Ultimate Magic?

Shadow Lodge

Summoners got some nice archtypes! Synthesist being my favorite, and Evolutionist coming in at a close 2nd. They got some interesting new spells, some great feats(especially for mounted combat Summoners), and a new Eidolon Base Form that's suited for the rare aquatic campaign. Summoners got love just about everywhere.

Summoners FTW!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....


LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....

Just get five color coded synthesists for power rangers.


LORDNOAR wrote:


It was also nice to get spells that were SOMEWHAT more than just buffing,

Wait what?

You had (by spell level for the summoner):
0th --Acid Splash, Daze
1st -- Infernal Healing, Grease, Daze Monster
2nd -- Create Pit, Glitterdust, Haste, Phantom Steed, See Invisibility, Slow, Summon Swarm, Wind Wall
3rd -- Aqueous Orb, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, D.Door, D.Anchor, Minor Creation, Spiked Pit, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
4th -- Acid Pit, Baleful Polymorph, Hold Monster, Major Creation, Overland Flight, Teleport, Wall of Stone
5th -- Ethereal Jaunt, Hungry Pit, Planar Binding, Repulsion, Simulacrum, Spell Turning, G.Teleport, True Seeing, Wall of Stone
6th -- Antipathy, Mass Charm Monster, Dimensional Lock, Incendiary Cloud, Maze, Protection from Spells, Sympathy, Teleport Circle

On top of early summons and buffs and you were not happy with what you had?

Shadow Lodge

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....
Just get five color coded synthesists for power rangers.

3~5 depending on what season we're copying.

I really do like the Master Evolutionist... *starts humming the Digimon and Pokemon theme songs*


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....
Just get five color coded synthesists for power rangers.

3~5 depending on what season we're copying.

I really do like the Master Evolutionist... *starts humming the Digimon and Pokemon theme songs*

True. But if it's season one you'll need to make sure the color schemes are really racist.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....
Just get five color coded synthesists for power rangers.

3~5 depending on what season we're copying.

I really do like the Master Evolutionist... *starts humming the Digimon and Pokemon theme songs*

True. But if it's season one you'll need to make sure the color schemes are really racist.

I must be really old; my first thought was Voltron, not Power Rangers. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
LORDNOAR wrote:

I play a summoner in my weekly game, with a bad-ass eidolon who's essentially a very angry fraggle. I was SO EXCITED about the new eidolon evolutions in Ultimate Magic, and sadly a little disappointed by them. I wonder if they'll be more physical/combat related evolutions in UC? Not really the place for it, but oh well.

I WAS, however, quite pleased with the summoner archetypes. particularly with the broodmaster and master summoner. Multiple summons is just plain cool. I'm particularly interested in attacking the baddies with a swarm of goblin dogs. mwahahahahaa

It was also nice to get spells that were SOMEWHAT more than just buffing,

Anyway, What are your thoughts on the summoner's treatment in Ultimate Magic?

I'm pretty happy with the stuff that summoners got in Ultimate Magic, archetypes. There were a few things that did disappoint me, but I guess I can't expect everything to be as amazing ;)

Eidolon Templates: I was expecting real monster templates that you could buy with evolution points, or prepackaged sets of not so useful evolutions that you could buy at a reduced price. All we got were a list of suggested evolutions you could use to mimic various creatures. I was disappointed when the dragon template was mostly just telling me to give my dragon eidolon evolutions that he already had.

Words of Power: As it is, a summoner would never want to be a pure wordcaster. You lose too many important spells for healing and summoning your eidolon and you don't get any conjuration words that work with Spell Focus. However, I see a summoner using the Experimental Wordcaster feat to gain words to expand his normal spellcasting. It might be possible that the designers meant it this way.

Magic Evolutions: In my opinion, these evolutions cost way too much for what they give. Maybe if they didn't require that you also spend points on the weaker magic evolutions...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rhys Grey wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....
Just get five color coded synthesists for power rangers.

3~5 depending on what season we're copying.

I really do like the Master Evolutionist... *starts humming the Digimon and Pokemon theme songs*

True. But if it's season one you'll need to make sure the color schemes are really racist.
I must be really old; my first thought was Voltron, not Power Rangers. ;)

Join the club, so was mine.


Rhys Grey wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....
Just get five color coded synthesists for power rangers.

3~5 depending on what season we're copying.

I really do like the Master Evolutionist... *starts humming the Digimon and Pokemon theme songs*

True. But if it's season one you'll need to make sure the color schemes are really racist.
I must be really old; my first thought was Voltron, not Power Rangers. ;)

Me too.


LazarX wrote:
Rhys Grey wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....
Just get five color coded synthesists for power rangers.

3~5 depending on what season we're copying.

I really do like the Master Evolutionist... *starts humming the Digimon and Pokemon theme songs*

True. But if it's season one you'll need to make sure the color schemes are really racist.
I must be really old; my first thought was Voltron, not Power Rangers. ;)
Join the club, so was mine.

Mine was gundam, and I don't even like gundam. I also thought about Naraku (Inuyasha) and a Vizard (Bleach).


Dragonborn3 wrote:

Summoners got some nice archtypes! Synthesist being my favorite, and Evolutionist coming in at a close 2nd. They got some interesting new spells, some great feats(especially for mounted combat Summoners), and a new Eidolon Base Form that's suited for the rare aquatic campaign. Summoners got love just about everywhere.

Summoners FTW!

Say, just what is the Evolutionist archetype, and how does it differ from 'normal' Summoners?


Eric Hinkle wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:

Summoners got some nice archtypes! Synthesist being my favorite, and Evolutionist coming in at a close 2nd. They got some interesting new spells, some great feats(especially for mounted combat Summoners), and a new Eidolon Base Form that's suited for the rare aquatic campaign. Summoners got love just about everywhere.

Summoners FTW!

Say, just what is the Evolutionist archetype, and how does it differ from 'normal' Summoners?

They gain inherent class features that allow them to change their eidalons evolutions more often, 6th level allows you to spend 200 gp/summoner level and 24 hours to change your eidalon's evolutions as if you gained a level, you can eventually change your eidalon's base form when you gain a level, and at even higher levels you can use transmogrify once per day without the material component.


I'm surprised at how fond I am of the Synthesist. It's really cool. A very close second is the Master Summoner. I was already working on an idea for an "eidolon-less" summoner. Nice to get some support so he doesn't just have to gimp himself... of course, that idea also has some stiff competition now. :)


In my world the summoners have little red white balls and they have scream "I choose you Eidolon". And their buffing spells are basically in the form of encouraging cheering. :-)

Just kidding.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Matrixryu wrote:
Magic Evolutions: In my opinion, these evolutions cost way too much for what they give. Maybe if they didn't require that you also spend points on the weaker magic evolutions...

It's not really that expensive:

1 EV for touch of fatigue once per day- nice for that last point that you need especially at lower levels when you're hitting up against the max attacks number
2 EV: Burning hands, CLW, magic missiles, vanish, all great spells. Couple Obscuring mist with something like sent and reach and they have total cover against all enemies. Compare this to grab or poison or trip and it's not that expensive
3 EV: as w/ Minor Magic this provides many great spells self heal/buff and some nice control options as well. Also remember they don't all have to be self cast so if you couple CMW with Resilient Eidolon Feat, if you go down the eidolon can heal you, or through life bond, dump HP on you and then self heal. CHA requirements are met with base form below and only require one point investment to meet here, and at 7th lvl, just put your ability increase in CHA

admittedly it costs a decent number of points but when you're getting up to the mid to late teens you have so many EV point that it wouldn't hurt to dump some points here


tlc_web tlc_web wrote:

In my world the summoners have little red white balls and they have scream "I choose you Eidolon". And their buffing spells are basically in the form of encouraging cheering. :-)

Just kidding.

Those are alchemists :p

The Exchange

sometimes the table get alittle to full with people with army characters( character jam pacted with animal companions, cohorts, summons, improved familiars and Eidolons )

the UM both helped and hurt my problem. The synthesist finally gives me a summoner option that doesnt add two more characters to my party (and gets my iron man fix on, magic missiles+ wingless flight+ armored body= fantasy super hero^^)

everything but the evolutionist just causes me to have a big-ol-migraine ><


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Slaunyeh wrote:
tlc_web tlc_web wrote:

In my world the summoners have little red white balls and they have scream "I choose you Eidolon". And their buffing spells are basically in the form of encouraging cheering. :-)

Just kidding.

Those are alchemists :p

I totally want to see a master summoner and a preservationist fight it out now XD *pokemon battle music*


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It amazes me just how many tropes are covered in this one book. The best part? You can be as serious (creepy preservationist alchemist) or as silly (Pokemon master - same thing) with the themes as you want to be!


Matrixryu wrote:
Slaunyeh wrote:
tlc_web tlc_web wrote:

In my world the summoners have little red white balls and they have scream "I choose you Eidolon". And their buffing spells are basically in the form of encouraging cheering. :-)

Just kidding.

Those are alchemists :p
I totally want to see a master summoner and a preservationist fight it out now XD *pokemon battle music*

My money is on the Master Summoner; the alchemist doesn't have near enough extracts to keep up with the summoner.


sayer of nay, I think it would be an interesting fight, especially if we get a few delayed alchemist bombs in the hands of the summons.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:
LORDNOAR wrote:


It was also nice to get spells that were SOMEWHAT more than just buffing,

Wait what?

On top of early summons and buffs and you were not happy with what you had?

Whoa-oa-oa, Easy turbo...I think you took way more negative connotation than was there.

I feel GOOD about the spells, still not on the damage dealing level of some of the pure magic classes, but better than the APG list which felt, <u>to me</u>, like the job of the summoner was just a eidolon-buffer.

Perhaps my wording was wrong, and for that I apologize, but aside from the new evolutions, i was quite pleased with all aspects of Ultimate Magic

I even wrote a review that's all happiness.
http://geekcentricity.com/2011/05/pathfinder-ultimate-magic-a-geekcentric-r eview.html


LORDNOAR wrote:


Whoa-oa-oa, Easy turbo...I think you took way more negative connotation than was there.

I feel GOOD about the spells, still not on the damage dealing level of some of the pure magic classes, but better than the APG list which felt, <u>to me</u>, like the job of the summoner was just a eidolon-buffer.

Perhaps my wording was wrong, and for that I apologize, but aside from the new evolutions, i was quite pleased with all aspects of Ultimate Magic

I even wrote a review that's all happiness.
http://geekcentricity.com/2011/05/pathfinder-ultimate-magic-a-geekcentric-r eview.html

That makes a bit more sense -- Personally the spell list that the summoner receives is one of my biggest gripes with the summoner class as a whole... no one should get haste before a wizard -- specifically a transmuter -- does.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:


That makes a bit more sense -- Personally the spell list that the summoner receives is one of my biggest gripes with the summoner class as a whole... no one should get haste before a wizard -- specifically a transmuter -- does.

You're going into nerd rage because Summoners get haste at one lousy level before the Wizard does? Quite frankly, I hardly think of Haste as one of the prime signature spells that defines a Wizard. Summoner's don't get that much outside of summons and buffs for the eidolon. And they have a very definite ceiling on spells known, taking any spell closes off choices of others.

Do keep in mind that when Summoners do get there Haste at the almighty fourth level, it is going to be a bit less effective than it would be at fifth. Personally if I'm a wizard in a party with a Summoner, I'd be more than happy to let him do the Hasting. There are more interesting spells for me to prepare instead.


LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


That makes a bit more sense -- Personally the spell list that the summoner receives is one of my biggest gripes with the summoner class as a whole... no one should get haste before a wizard -- specifically a transmuter -- does.

You're going into nerd rage because Summoners get haste at one lousy level before the Wizard does? Quite frankly, I hardly think of Haste as one of the prime signature spells that defines a Wizard. Summoner's don't get that much outside of summons and buffs for the eidolon. And they have a very definite ceiling on spells known, taking any spell closes off choices of others.

Do keep in mind that when Summoners do get there Haste at the almighty fourth level, it is going to be a bit less effective than it would be at fifth. Personally if I'm a wizard in a party with a Summoner, I'd be more than happy to let him do the Hasting. There are more interesting spells for me to prepare instead.

No -- I'm upset because this one class receives spells that don't even make sense for it earlier than anyone else, in such a way as can completely throw off item creation, and can wreck havoc with abilities like the magician bard recieves, or the pathfinder savant.

It's not 'this one spell' -- it's that spell, and slow, and black tentacles, and dimension door, and dimension anchor, , Daze Monster, Phantom Steed, Wind Wall, Minor Creation, Spiked Pit, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Acid Pit, Major Creation, Overland Flight, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Ethereal Jaunt, Hungry Pit, Repulsion, Simulacrum, Spell Turning, G.Teleport, True Seeing, Wall of Stone, Antipathy, Mass Charm Monster, Dimensional Lock, Incendiary Cloud, Maze, Protection from Spells, Sympathy, and teleportation circle

I understand the summon monster -- I understand some of these spells being on the list -- I don't understand all of them and earlier (in spell level) than what anyone else gets them, and in such a way as to really screw everything else in the system up. Each of those spells are not only on the list, but on the list much earlier than what they should be for the summoner -- in my opinion.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


That makes a bit more sense -- Personally the spell list that the summoner receives is one of my biggest gripes with the summoner class as a whole... no one should get haste before a wizard -- specifically a transmuter -- does.

You're going into nerd rage because Summoners get haste at one lousy level before the Wizard does? Quite frankly, I hardly think of Haste as one of the prime signature spells that defines a Wizard. Summoner's don't get that much outside of summons and buffs for the eidolon. And they have a very definite ceiling on spells known, taking any spell closes off choices of others.

Do keep in mind that when Summoners do get there Haste at the almighty fourth level, it is going to be a bit less effective than it would be at fifth. Personally if I'm a wizard in a party with a Summoner, I'd be more than happy to let him do the Hasting. There are more interesting spells for me to prepare instead.

No -- I'm upset because this one class receives spells that don't even make sense for it earlier than anyone else, in such a way as can completely throw off item creation, and can wreck havoc with abilities like the magician bard recieves, or the pathfinder savant.

It's not 'this one spell' -- it's that spell, and slow, and black tentacles, and dimension door, and dimension anchor, , Daze Monster, Phantom Steed, Wind Wall, Minor Creation, Spiked Pit, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Acid Pit, Major Creation, Overland Flight, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Ethereal Jaunt, Hungry Pit, Repulsion, Simulacrum, Spell Turning, G.Teleport, True Seeing, Wall of Stone, Antipathy, Mass Charm Monster, Dimensional Lock, Incendiary Cloud, Maze, Protection from Spells, Sympathy, and teleportation circle

I understand the summon monster -- I understand some of these spells being on the list -- I don't understand all of them and earlier (in spell level) than what anyone else gets them, and in such a way as to really screw everything else in the...

Remember that the summoner gets their spell levels later than the other classes, increasingly later as the levels progress. At level 18 for instance the Summoner is capped at 6th level spells as opposed to 9 for a sorcerer. The spell list enables the summoner to function as an option, an alternative for putting in a wizard or sorcerer at a party, he offers a different set of options, but not the same ones.

More importantly since there is a cap on spells that are known, the summoner can't steal all of the wizard's toys. He only has the use of some of them and he's going to gimp himself of his own toys if he tries to devote himself to using all his slots on the "wizard" territory spells. The Wizard on the other hand, has no limit to the spells he can master.


LazarX wrote:
.... and we need about 5 of us to each create lion eidolons of colors pink, green, red, yellow, and black.....

I did have a tempation to run a campaign with 5 summoner based on pwer rangers lol.


LazarX wrote:

Remember that the summoner gets their spell levels later than the other classes, increasingly later as the levels progress. At level 18 for instance the Summoner is capped at 6th level spells as opposed to 9 for a sorcerer. The spell list enables the summoner to function as an option, an alternative for putting in a wizard or sorcerer at a party, he offers a different set of options, but not the same ones.

Except these are the 'same' spells and he receives them before the sorcerer does in most cases. That's another part I don't like: He's gaining access to spells as a 'secondary caster' before the sorcerer has them -- spells that are supposedly the 'bread and butter' of a full caster -- spells that rightfully do not even belong on his list -- I mean simulacrum? Mass Charm Monster? Spell Turning?

I can almost understand some of the spells -- but it's a sad day to me when a secondary caster regularly receives access to 'primary' spells for full casters before the full casters get to them.

I know the bard has a few of these -- but no where near as many, and many times when the bard was up for beta testing before rules were released the primary answer for not changing spell levels for his spells was that "it would give them to him before the full casters receive the spell."

It's complete BS that the summoner gets to handwave that.

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