My own pathfinderized beguiler


Conversions


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I tried to bring the beguiler to what I always thought the bard should be, a versatile roguish manipulator.

I pumped it's fighting abilities a little bit, by raising its Hit die to d8 and baste attack to average progression. Since I didn't want to convert all the spells from PHB2 I tried to replace them with other spells that I thought should be appropriate.

I did not try to fill out the dead level as I thought that the class was powerful enough.

Feel free to comment.

Thanks

Spoiler:

Beguiler

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Base Attack bonus: average
Fortitude: weak
Reflex: good
Will: good
Class skills:
The beguiler’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the beguiler.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A beguiler is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, short sword, hand crossbow, and short bow. Beguilers are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A beguiler can cast beguiler spells while wearing light armor and use a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a beguiler wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass beguiler still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spells: A beguiler casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the beguiler spell list. When a beguiler gains access to a new level of spell, he automatically knows all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list. A beguiler can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. A beguiler also has the option to add new spell to his existing spell list through the advanced learning class feature as he increase in level.
To cast a spell, a beguiler must have a Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a beguiler’s spell is 10 + the spell level +the beguiler’s Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a beguiler can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the following table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
Trapfinding: A beguiler adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A beguiler can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Cloaked Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a beguiler’s spell become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. The beguiler gain a +1 bonus to the spell’s save DC when you cast a spell that targets any foe who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not).
At 8th level, the beguiler gain a +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target.
At 14th level, the bonus to the beguiler spell’s save DC increase to +2.
At 20th level, the beguiler become able to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target.
Surprised Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when the beguiler successfully use the Bluff skill to feint in combat, the beguiler target is denied its Dexterity bonus (if he has one) to AC for the next melee attack the beguiler makes against it or the next spell the beguiler cast. The beguiler must remain in melee with the target and the attack or the spell be cast on or before the beguiler next turn. The target is not consider flat-footed and therefore can make attacks of opportunity against the beguiler if he don’t cast defensively.
At 6th level, the beguiler may feint in combat as a move action instead of a standard action. If the beguiler has the Improved Feint feat, he may now feint in combat as a swift action.
Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd level, the beguiler can add a new spell to his list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell of the enchantment or illusion school and of a level no higher than a level he can already knows. Once a spell is selected, it is forever added to the beguiler spell list and can be cast like any other spell on his list.
A beguiler adds any other new spell at 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th level.
Silent Spell: At 5th level, the beguiler gains Silent Spell as a bonus feat.
Still Spell: At 10th level, the beguiler gains Still Spell as a bonus feat.

Spell list:
0 level: Dancing lights, Daze, Detect magic, Ghost sounds, Message, Open/close, Prestidigitation, Read magic
1st level: Charm person, Color spray, Comprehend languages, Detect secret door, Disguise self, Expeditious retreat, Hypnotism, Identify, Mage armor, Magic missile, Magic weapon, Obscuring mist, Silent image, Sleep, Ventriloquism
2nd level: Alter self, Blur, Daze monster, Detect thought, Fog cloud, Glitterdust, Hypnotic pattern, Invisibility, Knock, Minor image, Mirror image, Misdirection, Scare, See invisibility, Silence, Spider climb, Touch of idiocy
3rd level: Arcane sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Deep slumber, Dispel magic, Displacement, Glibness, Greater magic weapon, Haste, Hold person, Invisibility sphere, Major image, Nondetection, Slow, Suggestion, Tongues, Zone of Silence
4th level: Charm monster, Confusion, Crushing despair, Detect scrying, Greater invisibility, Locate creature, Rainbow pattern, Shout, Solid fog
5th level: Break enchantment, Dominate person, Feeblemind, Hold monster, Mind fog, Nightmare, Seeming, Sending, Telepathic bond
6th level: Greater dispel magic, Legend lore, Mass suggestion, Mislead, Repulsion, Shadow walk, True seeing, Veil
7th level: Ethereal jaunt, Greater arcane sight, Mage’s sword, Mass hold person, Mass invisibility, Phase door, Power word blind, Project image, Simulacrum, Spell turning, Vision
8th level: Binding, Demand, Discern location, Greater shout, Mind blank, Moment of prescience, Power word stun, Scintillating pattern, Screen
9th level: Dominate monster, Etherealness, Foresight, Mass hold monster, Power word kill, Time stop, Weird


This is interesting. I'll have to look in this one some more first.

Scarab Sages

Without comparing this to the 3.5 beguiler's spell list, only two things stand out: magic missile, and power word kill. Otherwise, this looks great.


Tom Baumbach wrote:
Without comparing this to the 3.5 beguiler's spell list, only two things stand out: magic missile, and power word kill. Otherwise, this looks great.

Actually power word kill is from the original Beguiler spell list and as for magic missile I wanted him to have at least an offensive spell at 1st level and I must admit I quite like that spell


Any chance you'd submit this to the Pathfinder Database?


Pathfinder Database Pimp wrote:
Any chance you'd submit this to the Pathfinder Database?

Can I? I mean most of the stuff is WOTC property. Or should I just post the changes on PF Database?

Scarab Sages

Mordo wrote:
Actually power word kill is from the original...

I probably didn't like it there either. :\

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Tom Baumbach wrote:
Mordo wrote:
Actually power word kill is from the original...
I probably didn't like it there either. :\

Meh. PW: Kill is an enchantment effect. Beguilers are all about enchantments and illusions. It fits.

Magic missile is definitely the odd one out here. Color spray should be all the 1st level offense you need.


Fatespinner wrote:
Tom Baumbach wrote:
Mordo wrote:
Actually power word kill is from the original...
I probably didn't like it there either. :\

Meh. PW: Kill is an enchantment effect. Beguilers are all about enchantments and illusions. It fits.

Magic missile is definitely the odd one out here. Color spray should be all the 1st level offense you need.

Even though they have access to some transmutation and evocation spells, most of these fits the theme.

Magic missile should not be part of the beguiler spell list as I see no other reason than me wanting a damage dealing spell at 1st level.


I made the Beguiler into a sorcerer bloodline. Seems to work fine there.


You did? What was the bloodline like?


Arakhor wrote:

1. You did?

2. What was the bloodline like?

1. No, I'm lying, for no apparent reason. Just kidding. Yes, I really did.

2. I'll try and remember to post it tonight or tomorrow night.


Looking at the spell list, I'm surprised to see that Hideous Laughter isn't on there, nor Enthrall, Geas, Modify Memory, or Irresistible Dance. Giving them Good Hope, Heroism, and the Command Spells wouldn't a bad go either.

I realize they didn't have it before, but with the loss of the PHB2 spells it does help.


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Beguiler Bloodline: You are a born manipulator. Subtlety is in your blood, whether inborn or from a past infusion of blood from a race of manipulators such as devils, doppelgangers, or even mind flayers. This bloodline supercedes the Beguiler base class, from the Player’s Handbook II.

Spoiler:
Class Skills: See below.
Bonus Spells: charm person (3rd), hypnotic pattern (5th), glibness (7th), zone of silence (9th), dominate person (11th), mass suggestion (13th), project image (15th), mind blank (17th), dominate monster (19th).
Bonus Feats: Arcane Armor Training, Armor Proficiency (light), Improved Feint, Lightning Reflexes, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Bluff), Still Spell, Uncanny Feint.
Bloodline Arcana: Your training focuses on subtlety over flash. Remove all spells from the schools of Evocation and Necromancy from your list of class spells.
Bloodline Powers: You use deception, misunderstanding, and secrets as skillfully as a soldier employs weapons of war.
Skilled (Ex): You gain 6 skill ranks per class level, rather than only 2. Also, add the following to your list of class skills (these supercede the single class skill normally granted by a sorcerer bloodline): Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, Perform (acting), Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Streetwise.
Cloaked Casting (Ex): At 3rd level, your spells are more effective against unwary foes. The save DC (if any) for your sorcerer spells improves by +1 if you cast at a foe who would otherwise be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacks. At 14th level, this bonus increases to +2.
Surprise Casting (Ex): If you have the Improved Feint feat, at 9th level you gain Greater Feint as a bonus feat. You can also feint with spells as well as weapons. After a successful feint, your subject is denied a Dexterity bonus against any spell you cast as well as any melee attack you make. To get the benefit, you must remain in melee with your foe, and you must make a melee attack or cast a spell on or before your next turn after the feint.
Cloaked Penetration (Ex): Starting at 15th level, your sorcerer spells automatically penetrate the spell resistance of any creature that would normally be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacks.
Master of Deception (Su): At 20th level, you are always treated as if you had glibness and discern lies spells active; these effects cannot be dispelled. Additionally, you gain the ability to use disguise self at will as a spell-like ability.


Thank you for this, Kirth. I think it may well get used :)

You've included Streetwise in the list of class skills. Is that Knowledge: Local + Gather Info. with low-lifes and criminals, or is it something else?


Arakhor wrote:
You've included Streetwise in the list of class skills. Is that Knowledge: Local + Gather Info. with low-lifes and criminals, or is it something else?

Sorry; it's our houseruled Knowledge (local) + Gather Information. Overall; not just low-lifes and criminals. For example, if your character got plane shifted to San Francisco somehow, and wanted to see how quickly he could figure out how take the BART from point A to point B, and where to switch trains, without ending up in Oakland, he'd use his Streetwise skill ("This map resembles the stagecoach route maps in Varisia, so I must be on this red line..."). For core Pathfinder rules, just substitute Diplomacy and Knowledge (local).


Or even what the hell the "BART" is :)

I'm happy with Diplomacy also covering high society Gather Information, which is why I have Streetwise to cover the low society side. I've got the idea though. Thanks :P


I was worried about your Bloodline Arcana until I saw the Skilled ability. I like it. I like it a lot. Definitely going to offer that in my next game.


Seeing the beguiler bloodline provide by Kirth, I was wondering what is the exact role of the beguiler; a full spellcaster specialized on enchantment and illusion, a social spellcaster with some roguish talent or a social rogue with spellcasting abilities?

As for myself I see it more as the third option and was wondering if it should have spell progression as the bard instead of the full 9 level. This is also why I upgraded the hit die and base attack bonus to average.

Otherwise Kirth option seems perfect for a full spellcaster specialized on enchantment and illusion.


The Beguiler is a limited-selection full spell-caster with lots of roguish skills and a couple of subtle class abilities.


Arakhor wrote:
The Beguiler is a limited-selection full spell-caster with lots of roguish skills and a couple of subtle class abilities.

Accurate. Now, if Mordo wants a Beguiler that functions differently, that's fair too. But that description is true of the class as is now.

There's a PDF out where someone took the Arcane Trickster and made it into 3 separate base classes with a different focus for each... seems like a lot of work to me, but hey, I guess it was a labor of love. It's 3.5, not PF, but just thought I'd mention it as it seemed relevant to the conversation of roguish casters.


I'd like to see the beguiler turned into a detective\investigator.

The sorcerer bloodline is a great start.

What do people think of Mordo's spell list?

Sigurd


Kirth Gersen wrote:

Beguiler Bloodline: You are a born manipulator. Subtlety is in your blood, whether inborn or from a past infusion of blood from a race of manipulators such as devils, doppelgangers, or even mind flayers. This bloodline supercedes the Beguiler base class, from the Player’s Handbook II.

** spoiler omitted **...

I think the fact that your version of the class lacks trapfinding makes it miss the most important aspect of it for me at least. It is a spellcaster that can fill rogue's trapsmith role. I have always liked playing arcane casters and one of my favorite things about hte beguiler was being able to be the skilled guy while still a primary caster. It is one reason I dont think a bloodline is sufficient.

In addition to that, I would say that the fact that the class lacks a 1st level '3+casting stat' ability at 1st level will be problematic in terms of endurance at low levels compared to other casters.

For my own use for the beguiler what i did essentially was keep the class as is, except put adv learning at 3rd level and every 2 after that (like sorceror bonus spells), and allow eclectic learning of someone wants it. In addition I added the illusion school powers from the wizard. Other then that I left it as is.


Tom Baumbach wrote:
Without comparing this to the 3.5 beguiler's spell list, only two things stand out: magic missile, and power word kill. Otherwise, this looks great.

I have to agree. I would bail on both of those as well


Is the conversion done for a core +plus converted class game?

if 3.5 is allowed I'd say go 3/4 BAB d8, light armour (no shield)
take beguiler features as is and add the following spells from spl com (substituting out some as well) add, final rebuke, wrathful castigation, shadow conj, gtr shadow conj, shadow evoc, gtr shadow evoc, shadow well etc, simalcrum

My take would be slightly tougher than straight wiz but make somewhat survivable at higher levels when most of your spellist (mind affecting) begin to be useless.

Sort of a Darker Beguiler- kinda a shadow adept type but without needing the FR prestige class, (since Shar does not exist in Golarion)

Cheers.


Kolokotroni wrote:
I think the fact that your version of the class lacks trapfinding makes it miss the most important aspect of it for me at least. It is one reason I dont think a bloodline is sufficient.

EVERYONE in Pathfinder gets the 3.5e version of Trapfinding. Including this bloodline. Even Sebastian the Pony gets it. Unless you mean the Pathfinder +1/2 levels (which the 3.5 Beguiler didn't have anyway)?

Kolokotroni wrote:
In addition to that, I would say that the fact that the class lacks a 1st level '3+casting stat' ability at 1st level will be problematic in terms of endurance at low levels compared to other casters.

Blasting powers seemed thematically inappropriate to me -- especially inasfar as, again, your 3.5e beguiler somehow did fine without them.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
I think the fact that your version of the class lacks trapfinding makes it miss the most important aspect of it for me at least. It is one reason I dont think a bloodline is sufficient.

EVERYONE in Pathfinder gets the 3.5e version of Trapfinding. Including this bloodline. Even Sebastian the Pony gets it. Unless you mean the Pathfinder +1/2 levels (which the 3.5 Beguiler didn't have anyway)?

Kolokotroni wrote:
In addition to that, I would say that the fact that the class lacks a 1st level '3+casting stat' ability at 1st level will be problematic in terms of endurance at low levels compared to other casters.

Blasting powers seemed thematically inappropriate to me -- especially inasfar as, again, your 3.5e beguiler somehow did fine without them.

The thing to rememeber is that the Pathfinder classes are supposed to compete on even footing with the newer 3.5 classes like the Beguiler and the Duskblade. If you take the 3.5e beguiler and just give it MORE STUFF, then you've broken the parity again and need to power up the Pathfinder classes again... this can go on ad infinitum.

The Exchange

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:


The thing to rememeber is that the Pathfinder classes are supposed to compete on even footing with the newer 3.5 classes like the Beguiler and the Duskblade. If you take the 3.5e beguiler and just give it MORE STUFF, then you've broken the parity again and need to power up the Pathfinder classes again... this can go on ad infinitum.

thanks you for adding that, conversion does not mean inflation. these classes are the reason for the core bump. that being said you can make whatever house rule changes you want, just be careful when things get unbalanced.


Tim4488 wrote:
There's a PDF out where someone took the Arcane Trickster and made it into 3 separate base classes with a different focus for each... seems like a lot of work to me, but hey, I guess it was a labor of love. It's 3.5, not PF, but just thought I'd mention it as it seemed relevant to the conversation of roguish casters.

Sorry for the necro-bump, but does anyone know where this is? I'm very interested!

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