Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
This should make for an interesting encounter as the caged goblin children are going to be on maximum 'annoyance' mode to the party when they are encountered. The oldest will probably throw something disgusting from its cage at one of the party members while the youngest wails. This should be challenging for the party because there is a paladin as well as a chaotic neutral cleric of war and destruction who puts up with no nonsense. Now if the children are evil, the paladin might not intercede if the cleric decides to 'eradicate' them. Maybe the oldest is evil as he has had the most opportunity to absorb goblin culture and all its meanness.
Anyway, to further complicate things, there is a chance that the party could wipe out the last remaining goblins in this dungeon in which case there would be nobody to look after the caged children. So if they are abandoned in their cages, the party are dooming them to a cruel death. If the party release them, I intend to make the goblin children as annoying as possible and a hindrance to their explorations to promote the roleplay opportunities.
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
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This is a great way to sew party conflict into the game. So be prepared for that.
Secondly, you're the GM so my first instinct is to say: That call is up to you.
Thirdly, if you make the children "evil" then the PCs will have an argument for killing children in the game. That can make some players uncomfortable.
So with the above said:
It is better that the children not be considered evil. The Paladin should always stand to defend the innocent, and raising the goblin children might make a great sub-plot for your game.
Finally, I think the more relevant question isn't whether goblin children are evil or not. The relevant question is: Are they delicious? >:-D
Nope. It's goblin society that makes them evil, not genetics. Demons and Devils (since they are of the evil subtype) are about the only things born evil. Presumably, if a goblin was raised in a loving and nurturing environment with no racial biases from other intelligent creatures, they could grow up Lawful Good.
As a side note, goblins have some of the nastiest flesh in the Bestiary. Er... so I've heard.
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some options:
1. goblins are born deranged and psycho (have a goblin adult release a "goblinbrood swarm" on the party, have them so mad that the eat the adults and anything else in the way out (good reason they would keep them in cages^^)
2. they are already released and run from the adventurers when they enter the room ( this is the easy button when you dont want drama over issue, well that and just have the room empty)
3. they are CN right now being trained to become CE (goblins may think cruelty makes you strong, so they torment the little buggers to get them good and nasty!) then what do they do with a dozen immature and needy big mouthed monster babies!
its really about whats the parties comfort zone< and is it worth pushing it to add drama
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While not the core rulebook the Player Races: High Goblins says...
Alignment: Most high goblins are of some sort of evil alignment. Lawful evil goblins tend to be living among humans while chaotic evil and neutral evil goblins tend to lead tribes. When befriended by someone of a good alignment, high goblins emulate their new friend shifting their alignment towards good, overtime.
Dork Lord lies goblin flesh is tasty and low in fat. Check their haunches for haunchedness to insure maximum flavor and juicyness. Becareful not to bruise their tender flesh. Mmmmmm, goblin.
Most creatures are not born evil. However all children are infact Chaotic Evil. Don't believe Mr. Fishy watch a 3 year old. They're called little monsters for a reason. Remember demons are cute too until one is eating your friend.
I'd have them be born annoying and jittery and conniving, but not evil. EXCEPT, I'd have one be born a Bad Seed.
CHILDREN ARE SOULLESS ABOMANATIONS!!! Mr. Fishy has two, the little one force fed Mr. Fishy a cookie then poked Mr. Fishy in the eye, Mr. Fishy screamed in pain the monster reached into Mr. Fishy's maw and took the cookie back. The big one rammed his finger into Mr. Fishy's nose, the only thing that keep that finger outta Mr. Fishy's brain was A LITTLE FIST.
EVIL!!! They also take Mr. Fishy's food.
My world... goblins are evil. Baby gobs are just more annoying less conniving than adult gobs... my group..paladin had no issues...gobs are evil. Makes things easier..if I want moral dilemas I run a different type game. We did storyteller games ad nauseum for moral issues. Our group is ready for black and white. Good vs Evil. It is a simpler time of it. HOWEVER just because they are evil doesn't mean torture and starvation and such are not inherently cruel. quick merciful kill.
wasgreg
wassayin'
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
** spoiler omitted **
Ultimately the choice is yours however I recommend if you have copy you check out the Goblin entry in Classic Monsters Revisited. Goblins reach adult hood by 5 years and are left in cages as the parents take little to no interest in their children's upbringing.
I tend towards having them just be evil given the goblin creation myth: Lamashtu as goblin mother and four of Asmodeus' stolen barghests as the fathers of the race.
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Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
** spoiler omitted **
This should make for an interesting encounter as the caged goblin children are going to be on maximum 'annoyance' mode to the party when they are encountered. The oldest will probably throw something disgusting from its cage at one of the party members while the youngest wails. This should be challenging for the party because there is a paladin as well as a chaotic neutral cleric of war and destruction who puts up with no nonsense. Now if the children are evil, the paladin might not intercede if the cleric decides to 'eradicate' them. Maybe the oldest is evil as he has had the most opportunity to absorb goblin culture and all its meanness.
Anyway, to further complicate things, there is a chance that the party could wipe out the last remaining goblins in this dungeon in which case there would be nobody to look after the caged children. So if they are abandoned in their cages, the party are dooming them to a cruel death. If the party release them, I intend to make the goblin children as annoying as possible and a hindrance to their explorations to promote the roleplay opportunities.
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
Judging by the entire setup you have dealt to your PCs you have already decided what you want them to be. Why ask? Is it just so you can feel like you are right?
It seems more like a "I have a LGPaladin in my group and a CNCleric of War and I want to have justification for intraparty conflict" instead of a real DM asking about the habits of goblins.Have fun screwing over your player that decided to try out a paladin....
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CHILDREN ARE SOULLESS ABOMANATIONS!!! Mr. Fishy has two, the little one force fed Mr. Fishy a cookie then poked Mr. Fishy in the eye, Mr. Fishy screamed in pain the monster reached into Mr. Fishy's maw and took the cookie back. The big one rammed his finger into Mr. Fishy's nose, the only thing that keep that finger outta Mr. Fishy's brain was A LITTLE FIST.
EVIL!!! They also take Mr. Fishy's food.
Poor Mr. Fishy. One can only hope that his offspring are doing to him what Mr. Fishy did to his parents.
Goblin children have it easy. Kobold hatchlings have to escape their TRAPPED nursery before they can join the tribe!
I'd just go,
"you guys wanna kill them goblin babies?
the paladin goes "NNNNNNewwwwww! YOU caunt kill them!"
the cleric goes "BUT.....I......WAUNT tew!!! They're eeeeeeevowl!!!"
Then they spray root beer on eachother, and I go microwave a slice of pizza.
Then I say, "so are they dead yet? yeh? neh? f$&+ it who cares?"
and then....cut scene....
it's two minutes/hours/whatever they're fighting an owlbear or something; nobody gives a s$$+.
Classic Monsters Revisited says goblins reach adulthood at age 5, right?
Rather than "are goblin children evil," maybe the question should be "do goblin children exist?"
I mean as soon as a goblin stops nursing, it's approaching those troublesome teenage years.
All children should detect as evil to a paladin.
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Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
Simple answer, and this is strictly from a psychological, motivational point of view, all children are evil. They don't have any moral compass and exist only to sate their needs and wants. Eventually, they will even lie, cheat, and steal to accomplish their very selfish and simplistic goals.
The real question shouldnt be when goblin babies become evil but when the proper influence could make goblin children good.
Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
Simple answer, and this is strictly from a psychological, motivational point of view, all children are evil. They don't have any moral compass and exist only to sate their needs and wants. Eventually, they will even lie, cheat, and steal to accomplish their very selfish and simplistic goals.
The real question shouldnt be when goblin babies become evil but when the proper influence could make goblin children good.
I don't agree at all. What you describe is animalistic behaviour - are animals evil? Children learn primarily from imitation and have a very high empathy - empathy is one of the key traits of being "humane" and acting in a selfless manner. All beings have needs and wants - the moment they are sated "higher" values can take their place - like curiosity, learning, caring.
I have master degree in pedagogy and psychology, but my primary focus has always been adults (and work) and not children - so if you can quote sources or have a background that gives you insights I do not have, I'm willing to discuss this, but I very much disagree with you.
...it does sound like Mr Fishy's little critters are pure evil, though. Poor Mr Fishy...
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Well, it's another alignment thread. Better smurf while you can!
Re OP: I say it's up to the GM.
edit: crap, i got smurfette..
Smurf happens.
However, I've always judged goblins of all ages to be inherently evil creatures.
With enough time and an amount of patience sufficient to train a dozen owlbear cubs, a dedicated individual can raise/train a baby goblin to be CG or NG adult. LG is too much for them.
Well, it's another alignment thread. Better smurf while you can!
Re OP: I say it's up to the GM.
edit: crap, i got smurfette..
Smurf happens.
However, I've always judged goblins of all ages to be inherently evil creatures.
With enough time and an amount of patience sufficient to train a dozen owlbear cubs, a dedicated individual can raise/train a baby goblin to be CG or NG adult. LG is too much for them.
You obviously haven't seen the Goblin Paladin in the webcomic 'Goblins'. He rocks!
*edit* WHY IS MY AVATAR A SMURF?!? AAAARRGGGG!!! DAMN SMURFING SMURFS!!
Judging by the entire setup you have dealt to your PCs you have already decided what you want them to be. Why ask? Is it just so you can feel like you are right?
It seems more like a "I have a LGPaladin in my group and a CNCleric of War and I want to have justification for intraparty conflict" instead of a real DM asking about the habits of goblins.
Have fun screwing over your player that decided to try out a paladin....
A bit of cheap DM bashing.. and undeserved mostly, the paladin will not act any different than most good aligned persons will, though the paladin will most likely be more commited to his ideals than most.
Good roleplayers generally can turn such things in some of the most memorable encounters and even neutral players should be troubled killing children for no good reason. Players have to work with eachother when making their characters to make sure their character concept are compatible, if the cleric is a blood and guts baby-killing soldier it should come as no surprise there will be party conflict and not just by paladins.
Every good aligned person will have moral issues with killing or dooming children, neutral characters will most likely have moral issues and will most likely not kill them if one or two characters show reluctance to do so.
Also note that evil characters are not automatically baby-killers, I had a neutral evil female rogue rescue orphaned goblin children once (from a mostly neutral party) delivering them to a cleric of some lawful good deity and asked him to raise them as a debt repaid, though she took great pleasure in watching him trying to squirm out off it.
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Well, it's another alignment thread. Better smurf while you can!
Re OP: I say it's up to the GM.
edit: crap, i got smurfette..
Smurf happens.
However, I've always judged goblins of all ages to be inherently evil creatures.
With enough time and an amount of patience sufficient to train a dozen owlbear cubs, a dedicated individual can raise/train a baby goblin to be CG or NG adult. LG is too much for them.You obviously haven't seen the Goblin Paladin in the webcomic 'Goblins'. He rocks!
*edit* WHY IS MY AVATAR A SMURF?!? AAAARRGGGG!!! DAMN SMURFING SMURFS!!
A webcomic is not canon in my book.
Even though it may well be smurfin' funny to read. :-)
Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
Simple answer, and this is strictly from a psychological, motivational point of view, all children are evil. They don't have any moral compass and exist only to sate their needs and wants. Eventually, they will even lie, cheat, and steal to accomplish their very selfish and simplistic goals.
The real question shouldnt be when goblin babies become evil but when the proper influence could make goblin children good.
I don't agree at all. What you describe is animalistic behaviour - are animals evil? Children learn primarily from imitation and have a very high empathy - empathy is one of the key traits of being "humane" and acting in a selfless manner. All beings have needs and wants - the moment they are sated "higher" values can take their place - like curiosity, learning, caring.
I have master degree in pedagogy and psychology, but my primary focus has always been adults (and work) and not children - so if you can quote sources or have a background that gives you insights I do not have, I'm willing to discuss this, but I very much disagree with you.
...it does sound like Mr Fishy's little critters are pure evil, though. Poor Mr Fishy...
I have to disagree, taking psychology into a fantasy game only takes you sofar, all those things children do will be regarded as evil acts in any sentient creature in the game, however children, animals and mentally challenged individuals are more or less exempt from the rule mainly because we can not allow children, animals and mentally challenged individuals to be evil in a fantasy game by default.
Goblins might as a race be mentally unstable, this does not mean in itself they would be evil, growing up as a mentally unstable child fostered and cared for by mentally unstable individuals will most likely result in a truly horrific child, which grows up in just a few years and is then ready to beget his own offspring.
Taking children out off this vicious cycle might save the child from a similar fate, though it will be a struggle to raise such a child.
Evil prolly not but certainly has alot of potential for becoming a dangerous individual.
Maybe not religous scripture, but it gives a different perspective. As a couple of people have said, society and culture play a large part in shaping someone's outlook and attitude in life. I've always hated the inherent racism among PC's who automatically assume that every orc/goblin/kobold/whatever is evil.
Like all PC's are good. Most PC's actually get away with behaviour that is absolutely the antithesis of good.
And the very first issue of Goblins demonstrates how it's considered 'heroic' to slay a whole village of goblins...just because they're goblins.
At least find out if they are evil or not before wiping out the whole clan - women and children included - on the assumption that they'll grow up to be evil.
Just sayin'
Maybe this got mentioned, but how would the paladin know that the goblin children are evil? Detect Evil only manages to detect evil creatures of level 5 or above - this should leave goblin kids in safe "don't know alignment" territory.
This is why my players never encounter monster children.
Me killed first dog when me 6 months old. Swear it was self-defense. Me not evil.
goes off to find a village to burn
Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
Simple answer, and this is strictly from a psychological, motivational point of view, all children are evil. They don't have any moral compass and exist only to sate their needs and wants. Eventually, they will even lie, cheat, and steal to accomplish their very selfish and simplistic goals.
The real question shouldnt be when goblin babies become evil but when the proper influence could make goblin children good.
Well, if you go by Tolkien, who influenced RPG's current versions of orcs and goblins heavily --
"For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." -- Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 2, "The Council of Elrond"
Of course, in the case of his books, he had a good reason built into the storyline for all the orcs to end up evil, since they were all under the mental influence of a powerfully evil being, Sauron in his corrupted form. And they were originally elves corrupted and distorted by Morgoth, Sauron's master.
Their evil alignment in RPGs, in short, is kind of a Tolkien legacy with the original reason for the evil removed. So, in the absence of Sauron and Morgoth, it seems most logical to assume it's their society that turns them to the bad, as someone pointed out upthread.
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Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
** spoiler omitted **
This should make for an interesting encounter as the caged goblin children are going to be on maximum 'annoyance' mode to the party when they are encountered. The oldest will probably throw something disgusting from its cage at one of the party members while the youngest wails. This should be challenging for the party because there is a paladin as well as a chaotic neutral cleric of war and destruction who puts up with no nonsense. Now if the children are evil, the paladin might not intercede if the cleric decides to 'eradicate' them. Maybe the oldest is evil as he has had the most opportunity to absorb goblin culture and all its meanness.
Anyway, to further complicate things, there is a chance that the party could wipe out the last remaining goblins in this dungeon in which case there would be nobody to look after the caged children. So if they are abandoned in their cages, the party are dooming them to a cruel death. If the party release them, I intend to make the goblin children as annoying as possible and a hindrance to their explorations to promote the roleplay opportunities.
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
Just remember one important thing THEIR ALIGNMENT ISN'T RELEVANT BECAUSE THEY WON'T REGISTER FOR A DETECT.
even if the six year old would willingly murder the first person who takes him out of that cage, THE PALADIN WILL HAVE NO CLUE IF HE'S EVIL.
goblins who are less than 5 hit dice don't detect to a detect evil spell unless they're clerics, I doubt you're giving that six year old cleric levels so this debate means nothing. The paladin has absolutely nothing to base his decision on other than his own moral compass.
Seriously if you're going to do this don't worry about their categorization. And they aren't born aligned so even if they are all three chaotic evil, they can still be raised to be redeemed. This is a character issue, not an alignment one.
There are no children in D&D. People just appear already middle aged.
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My world... goblins are evil. Baby gobs are just more annoying less conniving than adult gobs... my group..paladin had no issues...gobs are evil. Makes things easier..if I want moral dilemas I run a different type game. We did storyteller games ad nauseum for moral issues. Our group is ready for black and white. Good vs Evil. It is a simpler time of it. HOWEVER just because they are evil doesn't mean torture and starvation and such are not inherently cruel. quick merciful kill.
wasgreg
wassayin'
That's perfectly fine, just as long as your paladin knew he was killing children he couldn't be sure were evil (except for the fact that you as DM make them evil, they still don't detect to detect alignment)
Just remember one important thing THEIR ALIGNMENT ISN'T RELEVANT BECAUSE THEY WON'T REGISTER FOR A DETECT.
even if the six year old would willingly murder the first person who takes him out of that cage, THE PALADIN WILL HAVE NO CLUE IF HE'S EVIL.
goblins who are less than 5 hit dice don't detect to a detect evil spell unless they're clerics, I doubt you're giving that six year old cleric levels so this debate means nothing. The paladin has absolutely nothing to base his decision on other than his own moral compass.
Ok. Didn't know about Detect Evil not working for 5 hit dice or less. That will make things more challenging for the paladin.
Just to put things in context, these players have been roleplaying together for more than 25 years and are good friends. They are quite ok with internal conflict in the party to spice things up a bit as they leave their disagreements at the table.
Things have already become heated at times as the Chaotic Neutral cleric decided to pick Channel Negative Energy as his clerical power and hasn't been afraid to use it when other characters have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have no compunctions about fanning the flames with a controversial encounter as they seem to enjoy this added dimension to the game. Like I said, no feelings are hurt at the end of the game as they are mature enough to separate fantasy mayhem from reality.
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Replace "baby goblins" with "baby red dragon" in this thread and see how things turn out. No one would have problems killing baby red dragons because of what they will inevitably become without intervention by the PCs. To burden the PCs by forcing them to become parents of goblins is loads of non-fun in my book.
Are goblin babies and goblin children evil? If they aren't evil when they're born, when do they become evil?
** spoiler omitted **
This should make for an interesting encounter as the caged goblin children are going to be on maximum 'annoyance' mode to the party when they are encountered. The oldest will probably throw something disgusting from its cage at one of the party members while the youngest wails. This should be challenging for the party because there is a paladin as well as a chaotic neutral cleric of war and destruction who puts up with no nonsense. Now if the children are evil, the paladin might not intercede if the cleric decides to 'eradicate' them. Maybe the oldest is evil as he has had the most opportunity to absorb goblin culture and all its meanness.
Anyway, to further complicate things, there is a chance that the party could wipe out the last remaining goblins in this dungeon in which case there would be nobody to look after the caged children. So if they are abandoned in their cages, the party are dooming them to a cruel death. If the party release them, I intend to make the goblin children as annoying as possible and a hindrance to their explorations to promote the roleplay opportunities.
So, should I make all/some/or none of the goblin children evil? And how would you GM this encounter?
Evil or not, I think the goblin children are essentially helpless: caged and unarmed. Annoying, yes. Predisposed toward violence and destruction, yes. A threat if let out of their cages, possibly.
However, they are still unarmed noncombatants, really.
Concerning the paladin, or any other good characters in the party: it's not particularly honorable or morally sound to slay noncombatants, goblin or not. The most "good" thing to do would be to figure out a way to tranfer the goblin children to a location that doesn't subject them to a cruel death, whether they're set free, transported in their cages, or whatever. By leaving the children without caretakers (yes, arguably not the best caretakers, but providers nonetheless), the party assumes a certain amount of responsibility over the wellbeing of the children.
This could definitely put a damper on the immediate goal of adventuring ("killing them and taking their stuff"), but such is life when you have moral and ethical constraints. It's not an easy situation, to be sure, but wholesale slaughter or abandonment of the defenseless goblin children--born evil or not--is an evil act, in my opinion.
Fret not about eliminating goblin children and (presumably goblin) babies from the world. Goblin fathers will secretly thank you, even as the mothers goad them into battle. The goblin fathers are probably thinking "If I charge the guy in all that metal, I think he'll take me out quick, and that's a far better fate than waiting for the goblin-wife to have another litter . . . ."
Fret not about eliminating goblin children and (presumably goblin) babies from the world. Goblin fathers will secretly thank you, even as the mothers goad them into battle. The goblin fathers are probably thinking "If I charge the guy in all that metal, I think he'll take me out quick, and that's a far better fate than waiting for the goblin-wife to have another litter . . . ."
Heh heh . . . ;P
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Evil or not, I think the goblin children are essentially helpless: caged and unarmed. Annoying, yes. Predisposed toward violence and destruction, yes. A threat if let out of their cages, possibly.However, they are still unarmed noncombatants, really.
Concerning the paladin, or any other good characters in the party: it's not particularly honorable or morally sound to slay noncombatants, goblin or not. The most "good" thing to do would be to figure out a way to tranfer the goblin children to a location that doesn't subject them to a cruel death, whether they're set free, transported in their cages, or whatever. By leaving the children without...
Again, replace the young goblins with baby chromatic dragons and see how well that argument stands up.
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Replace "baby goblins" with "baby red dragon" in this thread and see how things turn out. No one would have problems killing baby red dragons because of what they will inevitably become without intervention by the PCs. To burden the PCs by forcing them to become parents of goblins is loads of non-fun in my book.
Not sure I agree with this. I also disagree that giving them the opportunity to pick up these children would be "burdening" them. Does it possibly make combat and dungeon crawling a bit more complex? Yeah. But does it add flavor and new elements into the game? For sure.
If my wizard happened across a red dragon hatchling in a dungeon that wasn't overtly hostile, I would demand affording it protection and likely adopt it for my own. I can think of no better guard for a wizards tower than a friendly and amiable red dragon.
It's worth noting that wyrmlings do not possess an alignment based aura.
And with them being intelligent creatures, they can have ANY alignment.
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Not sure I agree with this. I also disagree that giving them the opportunity to pick up these children would be "burdening" them. Does it possibly make combat and dungeon crawling a bit more complex? Yeah. But does it add flavor and new elements into the game? For sure.If my wizard happened across a red dragon hatchling in a dungeon that wasn't overtly hostile, I would demand affording it protection and likely adopt it for my own. I can think of no better guard for a wizards tower than a friendly and amiable red dragon.
It's worth noting that wyrmlings do not possess an alignment based aura.
And with them being intelligent creatures, they can have ANY alignment.
Ah, but that is a wizard character, not a LG paladin and a CN cleric of war.
Also, I would hate to play in one of your games if you think that child-sitting in the name of "add[ing] flavor and new elements" is a fun experience for the players.
I suggest instead asking this question, "It is an evil act to kill a child, regardless of the child's background?" and moreover, "Is it an evil act to kill a child who has been abused and neglected and left in a cage and has no means of defending himself?"
One of my biggest pet peeves is the idea that killing an evil creature is a good act. By my perception, killing is not something good characters seek out to do, regardless of the kill. Good characters will slay villains doing harm when that is the only way they can perceive stopping the villains, or they may slay a creature in self-defense. There are times they may slip out of anger or fear, these things happen. But a generally good person, most of the time, is going to avoid killing except when they or innocent people are immediately in danger.
I think presenting this situation--children of a cruel society in need of help but not accepting it, what do you do?--is fine. But the children's alignment doesn't matter in the end, IMO. If the children are capable of killing the party and the party needs to defend themselves, that's one thing. If they are themselves relatively helpless (even if they're throwing poo at the party) then a good character has little reason to harm them (although they might attempt to restrain them as humanely as possible if they are causing problems).
Regarding the paladin particularly, let us consult the rules, since that provides some unbiased arbitration:
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
And then answer these questions as best you can (there are no right answers, just yours as GM's):
How does one respond to children being locked in a cage and forced to live in their own excrement relate to one's "concern for the dignity of human beings"?
Is killing children (regardless of their alignment and the fact that they are flinging poo) stuck in a cage (or even recently released from a cage) an honorable thing to do?
Would a child (regardless of alignment and poo-flinging) stuck in a cage be considered one of "those in need"?
Would someone threatening to kill the caged poo flinging children be considered "those who harm or threaten innocents"?
Additionally:
Are there other ways to deal with the children? Could they be taken but restrained, and then turned over to an orphanage prepared to deal with such creatures? Are there other options available besides kill them, leave them, or set them free and abandon them to the winds?
I sort of "lucked out" when my party came to this point in the adventure. They backed out of the room and shut the door, intending to come back to it later. However, after that, one of the PCs died, and they forgot all about it.
I haven't forgotten. One of the PCs wants to secure the legal property rights to that area and use it as a "base of operations". I'm waiting for him to go back and take posession. I think a haunt is in order. One with a starvation theme. In any event, they will be evil when they next meet the unfortunate creatures.
As to your question, I would not make them evil for several reasons. 1) it is my opiion that intelligent creatures should have the capability of making their own moral choices (even intelligent undead); 2) Not force-feeding an alignment to them allows for non-standard monster fights against normally good-aligned creatures; 3) Allowing for creatures to change their alignment based on their experiences makes for good stories; 4) allowing creatures to have alignments based on their experiences allows for non-standard PC races (Savage Species book, etc); and 5) the adventure path already has a creature acting against their normal racial alignment because of their non-standard upbringing
oh smurfing smurf it
they are whatever the DM wants them to be
smurf
oh smurfing smurf it
they are whatever the DM wants them to be
smurf
Though I hesitate to agree with a blue-skin, I find myself doing just that.
If you, the DM, decide that paladins will fall from grace should they kill goblin children, let the players know and go from there.
If you don't tell the player of a paladin/cleric that such actions will result in their character's fall, you are a jerk. The players rely upon the DM for some things, and this is one of those things.
However, if a good character not dependant on such benefits from the gods kills the little blue devils, there's not a whole lot you can do. Alignments are not straightjackets. Good people do bad things. Bad people do good things.
And goblin babies should be tossed over cliffs into the sea so that Father Dagon can sort out the deserving from the shark food.
EDIT: So that's what happens to my avatar when I end up agreeing with a smurf. Never trust a blue-skin!
One of my biggest pet peeves is the idea that killing an evil creature is a good act.You must have loved the thread about the paladin who would murder anyone who registered as evil.
I think I skipped that one for my sanity's sake.
