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Well, one of my favorite monsters from the old D20 Modern system was the 'Star Doppleganger', which was pretty much John Carpenter's version of "The Thing (from another world)" ^_^
http://www.d20resources.com/menaces.d20/menaces/star.doppleganger.php

It has a Lovecraftian feel, without truly being a Mythos entity (frankly, one of the things I didn't like about the 'Strange Aeons' adventure path was its very close association with the Cthulhu Mythos).

Of course it will take some work to convert it to Pathfinder stats, but not too much.

The hard part will be how to emulate it taking someone else's place, without the other player's knowing (easy to do for NPCs).

There was a Ravenloft adventure about Dopplegangers ("Hour of the Knife") dealt with PCs being replaced harshly: If a PC was ever in a situation where they were alone with a Doppleganger, they were automatically assumed to be killed and replaced (but this was originally a tournament adventure, so nobody was losing long standing characters themselves).


Agan, thanks for the replies, I appreciate it ^_^

@EldonGuyre : Yes, this n'gathu looks like something I could use (maybe even combining it with the 'Mutation' rules from Chaositech ^_^).

Although it shouldn't be too hard to do myself with copy/paste, I do wish one .pdf could be made with all the Kytons created for Pathfinder in one easy to find resource (and I'm also the d20PFSRD has a page with them all as well).

On a not totally unconnected note: For those of us who still love and use those 'Tentacle Faced Brain Eaters', there is a feat tree in "Complete Psionic" called 'Illithid Heritage Feats', which can be turned into a Corruption with a little work (mostly adding 'Stains' to each feat, and making it a full Gift that way).


EldonGuyre wrote:

There is an old 3.0, Malhavoc product by the name of Chaositech that covers body mods, and see this:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/toh-extract-ng athu-crude-extract/

Thanks for the reply ^_^

Malhavoc Press was one of my favorite 3rd party producers back in the day, and I have the Chaositech .pdf. I suppose I could modify those rules into a 'corruption' of sorts.

I'm afraid the link you provided give me a 'page not found' error.


I've did a search here and at Reddit. A similar question was asked when Horror Adventures came out, but there doesn't seem to be any rules like this.

I was wondering if anyone out there knows of any rules to represent the character slowly becoming a Kyton-like being (personally, I've always seen Kytons as the 'Cenobites' from the movie/Book series "Hellraiser").

Officially, the closest thing I have found is the 'Shadowbound' corruption, but that doesn't represent the modification of the flesh that you see with Kytons. There is a 3rd party product that has the 'Voidspawn' corruption, but it comes off more as a chracter devolving to a 'cthulhu' like tentacled monstrosity.

If anybody knows of any such rules, I would appreciate the help (I may try to come up with my own rules for such, but I such at rules modifictions myself).


I picked up the actual book for Starfinder, as well as the PDFs for all the other rule books.

While it does look interesting, I have to admit I was looking for something that would let me use my VAST catalogue of Pathfinder material (particularly the Bestiaries) in a setting that uses the 'Baseline Pathfinder' rules (including Action Economy, and everything else, no matter how many problems it might have when compared to the more streamlined Starfinder).

Although I don't know if I'll ever contribute to this thread, I may eventually pull out some of the better options from Starfinder and just convert them to Pathfinder (less work than going the other way).


I'll be keeping an eye out for something like that as well.

I guess I've just been playing/buying Pathfinder for so long, I want my Sci-Fi rules to be closer to basic Pathfinder.

That being said, it doesn't seem like it would be too hard, since Starfinder has some basic rules for converting monsters from Pathfinder to Starfinder, so going the other way seems like a no brainer.


I'm not sure where else to ask this, and this is the first result in an 'Alien Archive' search in "Starfinder General Discussion", so....

I just got the Alien Archive myself, and it looks great ^_^

Matter of fact, I wouldn't mind using some of the critters in a 'baseline' Pathfinder game.

So I was wondering: Does anyone out there know of any guidelines for converting Starfinder Critters to Pathfinder? I know the base Starfinder rules have some guidelines for going from Pathfinder to Starfinder, but I don't know how well they work going the other way (haven't really played a game yet, but I plan on playing a one shot soon with some friends, just to test the system).


Actually, after seeing "Alien Archive" for the first time, I'm wondering about the reverse: I would love to use some of these critters in a 'baseline' Pathfinder game ^_^

The Archive doesn't offer any suggestions itself, but it probably won't be to hard to do myself, although I'll ask elsewhere here to see if anyone else has any guidelines.


As I've said elsewhere, even if I don't use all the rules/setting as printed, the starship construction/combat rules are excellent, and can pretty much be pulled out of Starfinder and used in the old D20 Modern/Future rules with little to no changes, depending on how much you want either rules system to adhere to the other.


Vidmaster7 wrote:

Asmodeus's throne ends up on a high celestial plane. Solar flies by notices Asmodeus on his plane. Eyes go wide clumsily draws his holy sword in panic. Solar: What is your buh-buh-business here foul lord of hell?!? Asmodeus: *Points at throne* "Drift. this spot is mine now..."

Solar: Oh yeah fair enough *goes about his business*

You know what they say:

"If it isn't one Damned Thing, its Another" ^_^


quibblemuch wrote:
....There is only one plausible explanation: Automobiles are sentient aliens, the harbingers of an invasion wherein we destroy ourselves.

Ahem.... ^_^: https://horrorpedia.com/2014/09/17/the-cars-that-ate-paris-1974-australian- comedy-horror-film-overview-plot-reviews-dvd/

Oh, man; why did you have to reactivate the neurons I have that recalled this particular piece of schlock? ^_^


Well, for me:
First off, I've only given the rules a VERY quick read through (picked up the hardback the other day).

I'm an 'Old School' D20 system guy (although I've been playing RPGs since the 'Red Box D&D", or more appropriately for this thread, "Traveller Black Box" rules ^_^).

I'm not sure if I'll use these rules completely as is, but if I ever start up a Modern/Sci-Fi D20 game, I will certainly use elements from this (particularly the Starship Rules, as the old D20 Modern/Future system really lacked in this department).

To be true, anything I run will most certainly be a hodge-podge of stuff stuff from D20 Modern/Future, Pathfinder, and Starfinder.


I've been looking for a proper place to ask this question, so I guess this place is as good as any other:

Does anyone know of a "Occult Adventures" version of the Mothman out there anywhere? I could have sworn I saw it in one of the Bestiaries, but no luck (maybe it was in a 3rd party product).


I see I'm piping in on a conversation that's 5 years old now, but.....

I just discovered this, and it looks like a nice and useful document, so a big "Thanks!" for it ^_^

However, if I were to use Slenderman, I would probably power him down some, and make him a high-level servant of a Big Bad rather than the Big Bad himself (maybe in service to one of the true Lovecraftian Horrors, like Nyaralthotep [sp]).

Also, seeing as he has a 'modern' origin, I would use him in a 'Modern Horror' game, and with both Occult Adventures, Horror Adventures, and soon Starfinder out, that should be easier than ever now.


Zelgadas Greyward wrote:


I will say, if you think you will pick it up at some point, please pledge the Kickstarter - even if you only do so for $1. All backers, even $1 backers, get some NPC pdfs that are exclusive to the Kickstarter, so it's worth it even if you do wait until later for the main book.

Oh, I did, not long after I made that post here :-)


Chemlak wrote:

Risky. Very risky.

I really, hugely, massively hope that this can be done with respect and care for the subject matter (the list of names involved gives me hope).

Good luck on this.

Although its probably already been mentioned in some of the replies above, the very concept reminds me of the infamous "Book of Erotic Fantasy". I do recall that that book actually did treat the subject with maturity (I particularly liked how they described how each Alignment would possibly treat sexual situations).

That being said, it was the first "Big" book to take on this subject, and it caused a bit of an uproar (made TSR change their 3rd Party Content policies; and as I recall some 'rumors' that one of the writers of the book was the head of his own 'cult' 0_0)

I'll probably pick it up when it comes out, but I doubt I will ever use any of its content for any game I run (but than I can say that for a LOT of the stuff I buy from Paizo itself [DAMN, but you make a lot of content!! ^_^)


Distant Scholar wrote:


No boos, but be aware that Starfinder is space fantasy, and not science fiction.

I may wait for a few reviews of the product before I pick it up then.

Again, what I would like is just the 'base' set of rules that can be used for any Sci-Fi setting, whether its the "Hard Science Fiction" of "2001", to the campy Space Fantasy of "Battle Beyond The Stars" (What? You thought I was going to mention that other franchise? This one had "John Boy" in it, Dammit!! ^_^)

You can argue that Pathfinder is a good set of 'basic' rules for a Medieval Fantasy setting, and with all the books out now you can really fine tune it to your likings (changing the magic system for example, or even injecting High Tech into the setting). I'm hoping that Starfinder will do the same for 'generic science-fiction' (just saw the premier of Season 2 of "The Expanse", and I wouldn't mind setting a short campaign in that universe ^_^)


I don't know where else to put this comment, so I'll put it here:

While the whole "Golarion in the Far Future" concept does sound interesting, what I would like from Starfinder is more of a "Basic" rules set for making your own sci-fi adventures.

I know I'm going to get a lot of "Boos" for this, but I for the most part did like D20 Modern. It gave you a basic rules set for playing 'Modern' era games, then put out various supplements for settings based in the Historical Past to nearly any Sci-Fi setting you could think of.

They even did their own vesion of the Fantasy-meets-Modern-World concept with "Urban Arcanna", which the base setting of Starfinder reminds me of.

I will be buying "Starfinder", in hopes that it will give me that update of "D20 Modern" I've always wanted (i.e., Modern/Sci-Fi Pathfinder Rules), but I'm not sure if I will be using their "Elves in Space" concept (and I always have my old "d20 Modern" books to fall back on for inspiration, in necessary ^_^)

I'll add more, after reading some of the comments above:
I also ran Alternity for a little while (before DnD 3rd Edition took up all of our attention). All I can say is that I and my small group had fun, the rules didn't seem to confuse anybody. That being said, my group was heavy on Role Playing as well, so that probably had something to do with it.


Whereas I am looking forward to it as well, a part of the 'Old Crotchety Gamer' in me feels kind of resistant.

Don't get me wrong, I love Pathfinder and its rules system. I've even bought a couple of .pdf modern/sci-fi conversions of the rules at the various online gaming stores (but was not quite happy with any of them).

Once I commit to a system, though, it usually takes a LOT of effort for me to change.

When 3.5 came out, I didn't buy any of the books for that system, preferring to stick with 3.0 (well, except for the Expanded Psionics Handbook, since I'm a big goob for that rules set ^_^).

I finally switched from 3.0 to Pathfinder as my base 'fantasy' rules set. Still, though, I prefer the D20 Modern rules set for my Modern/Sci-Fi rules (they even did a version of the Star Wars setting that was more or less compatible with D20 Modern).

Although it would take a bit of work on my part, I could reasonably adapt the Modern rules to Pathfinder.

However, like I was tryingn to do with Ravenloft, Pathfinder will probably do it much better with StarFinder (as they did with Horror Adventures).

So yes, I'll probably break down and buy the main rulebook when it comes out, but not pump as much money into that rules set as I have with Pathfinder (although if they come up with good starship construction rules [ala the old Traveller game]], I'll probably pick up that).


Although the monsters section was necessarily short, it was a good start.

As I mentioned before, we finally have Pathfinder stats for the 'Alien' ^_^

A long while back, in the d20 Modern rules, I remember seeing stats for another iconic movie monster, "The Thing (from Another World)", although they called it the "Star Doppleganger".

It shouldn't be to hard to convert this critter to Pathfinder (something I may well tackle myself soon):
http://dmreference.com/MRD/Creatures/Menace_Creatures/J-Z/Star_Doppelganger .htm


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I'm sure someone's probably already mentioned it before, but....

I even see stats for one of my favorite creatures (for which I STILL have the occasional nightmare, 30+ years later 0_0).

"Game over, man; GAME OVER!!!"


LOL :-)

Interesting to read this thread now that the setting book is actually out (found this following a Tropes thread about Pathfinder ^_^)


Just found this myself on a lark, but it looks like soon we will have 'official' rules for Ravenloft in Pathfinder, in the form of the Horror Adventures rulebook, which will be out later this year (STILL too long for me, though ^_^): http://paizo.com/products/btpy9jcx?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Horror-Adven tures-Hardcover


VM mercenario wrote:

No drawn up stats? Your search fu is weak grasshopper.

Slenderman as a CR22 epic boss monster, in a neat pdf.

The book seems to be pretty comprehensive, and I may use it in my Modern Horror campaign I plan on running (after the Horror book comes out later this year).

However, I think I may power down Slender himself, while I do agree he is a bad ass villain that should be a challenge to players, putting him near the power levels of the Great Old Ones is a bit too much for me.

I'll probably tweak him to be around Cr 15 or so.


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Huh, and here I am diligently trying to convert "Masque of the Red Death" to Pathfinder/Occult Adventures... all that time wasted :-(

Can't wait for this one though ^_^


Very late to this discussion, having only just recently picked up the first book in this adventure path at the local Books A Million, but I have a couple of off the wall thoughts I thought I would share:

Would it be WAY too geeky of me to combine elements of this Adventure Path with another Sci-Fi game I really enjoyed: The Mass Effect Trilogy? :-)

See, my thoughts are that what if the ship that originally crashed in Numeria wasn't a 'Colony Ship', but one of the "Harbinger Class" Reapers from the Mass Effect Trilogy?

This could mean that ALL the technology used by the citizens of that land derives from a device with the intent of wiping out all 'technologically' advanced life! Maybe it did somehow fall through a wormhole and ended up in the Golarion Universe, where it did in fact encounter the Dominion of the Black and engaged them in combat, eventually losing and crash landing on this world.

Maybe all this time its been changing its 'directives', maybe this time to destroy all life that uses arcane/divine 'technology' instead?

Among other things, this would mean that most, if not all of the rulers of Numeria have been/are being 'Indoctrinated' into the Reaper's new way of thinking, and PCs who spend a lot of time around the technology run the risk of it as well.

I know, this would require heavy re-writes of Numeria as well as probably a LOT of this adventure path, but it seemed like a cool idea to me ^_^


Thanks; sounds like exactly what I'm looking for (can't wait until it comes out :))


Frankly, the thing I would most be interested in is some kind of 'guide' to creating your own homebrew hybrid classes.

What I mean is like a level-by-level guide that says something like "Pick X ability from class One", etc.

To be specific, I would like something that combines the Cleric class with the Kineticist class from "Occult Adventures"

There may be something like that out there somewhere, but as of yet I haven't found anything.

Anyone else have any pointers/clues to where to go?


Ah, I see, thanks all for the answers ^_^


I've done several checks through the various rules FAQ threads, but I can't seem to find an answer to this probably simple question:

When it comes to Variant Multiclassing and spell casting classes as the secondary class, how do you handle the spell progression of that class?

Is the spell progression somehow limited, or does the character receive the same spells per level for his total class level?

I may have missed it, but I can't seem to find any answer in the Pathfinder Unchained rules themselves.


I hope I will be forgiven for asking this basic question about Pathfinder Unchained Multiclassing, but it was the closest thread I could find (and a quick search didn't seem to have an answer):

When it comes to Unchained Multiclassing and Spell Casting classes as the 'secondary' class, how do you go about their spell progression?

Does the 'secondary class' gain spells as normal for that class, or at a staggered/reduced rate (again, I couldn't seem to find a clarification in the rules themselves).

I'm asking here because I am likewise curious about how Occult Adventures Variant Multiclassing would be handled, but good suggestions have already been given, so thanks to all! ^_^


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Okay, after giving some of the rules a quick look-see, I'm going to give my initial, rambling thoughts.

Note that this is from the viewpoint of a 'rules dabbler', I couldn't tell you how to make a maximized build of any character class to save my life, I just trust that when I make a character the rules will work due to the thousands of people who playtested them before I ever got to see them :-)

That being said, of course I like the book. I can't see any complaints I might have about any of the new character classes, and my initial thought that they wouldn't work in a 'standard' fantasy campaign seem to be unfounded (although of course I think these classes are more fit in an Occult/Gothic Horror style campaign).

I would even say that some of the rules owe just a little bit to Psionics rules (whether 3.5 Edition or Dreamscarred Press' version). The Psychic's 'Phrenic Pool' somewhat resembles a Psion's Power Point Pool (although I think some other PF class uses a similar system). There is even a Magus Archetype that is practically the Psionic Soul Knife :-)

I also like the some of the rules expansions; I think I could even port the 'Psychic Combat' rules to Psionics with very little effort (and probably better than the previous Malhavok Press "Mindscapes" version I was using, at least at first glance).

Unless I missed something, I would have like to have seen them incorporate the Alchemist class more fully into this book (he just seems to fit so well, particularly with some of the mutational abilities a alchemist can get [Edward Hyde, anyone? ^_^]).

All in all I like the book and may actually pick up the hardback version for my collection. As I have said before, though, I plan on using it to recreate the "Mask of The Red Death" campaign setting, so I have some fun tweaking of rules ahead of me (have to check and see if anyone has done a good port over of the "Fear/Horror/Madness" checks, as well as some of the cooler parts of the Ravenloft rules :-))


I have the .pdf, and the class looks interesting, but I have a few questions perhaps someone here could answer:

How well does this class mesh with Pathfinder, particularly "Ultimate Combat"?

Although I've only given it a quick glance, it seems like many of the Talents could be duplicates of feats available in one of several Pathfinder books out there.

I would like to use the book, but if I can create a character like it without having to add on yet another rules set I would probably go in that direction.


Luthorne wrote:
EltonJ wrote:
I wonder what Dreamscarred Press has planned for this release. :)
Probably something like this?

That is a pretty good book for using 'spirit' like abilities with psionics (reminds me of a Malhavok Press supplement where a lich was trying to create such a discipline :)).

As I have probably said before, though, if/when I use this book I won't be mixing it with dreamscarred's Psionics system; I think it seems to work best in its own 'setting'.

Also, just like I am using the Psionics system to help re-create the old Dark Sun setting from TSR, I will be using this book to help recreate "Ravenloft" (or more specifically, the "Mask of the Red Death" setting).

Its probably been answered in one of the many comments above, but I wonder if the book will give guidelines for using the Alchemist with these rules (frankly, the Alchemist seems a bit overpowered when compared to what I have seen for the classes in this book, although I could be wrong).


As always, very late for any discussion, but my 2 cents (probably rehashing stuff that has been said a dozen times already):

This class obviously owes something to a certain Mr. Wayne :-).
In fact, it makes me wish for something I pretty much know that Paizo (probably) won't do: A Pathfinder compatible rules set for playing Super-Powered characters. I know we have games like "Mutants and Masterminds" out there, but that just never caught on for me (guess I'm too old/lazy for all the number crunching involved).

Anyway, the class looks pretty good for playing a 'Avenger of The Night', although I do wonder how well it will fit into a Fantasy campaign (probably one set in a city).


Well, let me add to the 2K plus posts here with my own :-)

I just picked up the PDF (like it enough I may get the hardback), but I already see in just the first few pages one thing I like (and was already using): The change to how the hit point bonus for Barbarians is applied (never liked the 'base' system, where it typically meant the barbarian would instantly die after combat unless a healer was directly on hand).

Think I'm going to like this book, and since I'm between campaigns at the moment, I can now carefully pick and choose what I want to use for any new campaign I may run in the future ^_^


Well, this is like a 6 year long late answer to this post, but what the hell ^_^

I've been going back through a lot of the Malhavok press stuff (mainly the Psionics supplements, which were my go-to source for updated psionics rules before "Psionics Unleashed").

People are right in that there is not a lot of 'hard' information about the nature of the Dark Plea, but I've cludged together a 'background' for it that involves another Malhavok product, "Chaositech", by Monte Cook, and also try to integrate it into the 'canon' history of the Illithids (according to 3.5

"Chaositech" introduces a 'race' of Lovecraftian-like beings called the Galchutt, who are Chaos incarnate, wanting nothing but the destruction of everything.

So in my 'story', The Illithids come from another universe that was invaded by the Galchutt (their current parasitic form my even be in reaction to the 'laws of the universe' changing because of this invasion).

The Illith could not defeat them, so they undertook a great project to 'tunnel' into another universe unknown to the Galchutt, which is the 'Prime Material' plane of the campaign.

However, they arrived some time in this universes Future, and it was there that they established their Great Empire. Unfortunately, the Galchutt followed them and began to destroy their empire.

In yet another desperate move, the Illith flung themselves into the far past of this universt, to start over again, and prepare for the eventual confrontation with the Galchutt in the far future (they lacked the resources to move to yet another universe).

The Galchutt have been sending psychic 'feelers' into the past to find the Illith, and this dark force that maddens thinking beings and eventually results in the destruction of whole worlds came to be called the "Dark Plea".

I know, kinda clunkly/cliched (I'm no writer), but I kind of like it ^_^


Well,I haven't read all the replies, but I'll go ahead and add my 2 cents, particularly concerning the Psychic vs Psion thing:

As has probably been said before, these rules seem to best fit a 'Ravenloft' type setting, while Psion rules (probably best represented by Dreamscarred Press' "Psionics Unleashed") is meant to be used in an overall Dungeons and Dragons/Pathfinder setting.

You could and can mix and match the two without worrying about the differences, but if I were running a settings with these rules I would stick with a 'Ravenloft' style of play (Hell, I would even try to change the setting from 'medieval fantasy' to a more 1890s/1920s style "Call of Cthulhu" setting ^_^)


This looks pretty good to me, although I would agree with changing how often the Breath Weapon can be used.

I may adopt this write up for my Pathfinder Dark Sun campaign; I've been looking at the 4th Edition version and I like the inclusion of Dragonborn (Drey), and this covers that race.


This is not directly Pathfinder related, but I saw something I found very interesting:

I play around with a program called Poser, used for making 3D rendered images.

While searching for some new fantasy items to add to my library, I came across this: http://www.daz3d.com/earth-warden

I thought to myself "Why does this look so familiar?"

Then I realized its the exact same outfit as the iconic Pathfinder barbarian 0_0

I'm now curious: did the makers of this product just copy Wayne Reynolds image, or is Reynolds working with the makers of the product?


There are definitely some elements of the 4th Edition setting I wouldn't mind seeing converted to Pathfinder, but they would either require re-writing rules/classes already found in Pathfinder, or creating them from whole cloth.

Some examples that I found intriguing were the "Smoking Crown Initiate" (maybe a Fighter or Psychic Warrior who has/can manifest earthquake/fire related powers), Jazst Dancer (a fighter who specializes in weilding two light blades [physical or psychic] and gains special abilities with each level).

I even like the idea that the 'primal' forces defeated the Divine forces long ago on Athas, but there is just no way to reflect the 'primal' power source in Pathfinder (other than just calling Druidic/Ranger magic abilities 'Primal'). Also, the idea that the Templars are Warlocks instead of clerics of the Sorcerer-Kings makes since [no longer need to explain why the Kings can't use clerical magic themselves], but it would be just too much work for me to write special warlock abilities for each Sorcerer-King 'pact' when I have the easy go-to of clerical domains thanks to the Dragon Magazine articles.


Odraude wrote:

I loved Dark Sun. Definitely keeping an eye on this. Any way to download that Pathfinder conversion on ISSU? Doesn't seem to be a way to.

Also, I don't know if it's been linked, but the guys that did Dark Sun made a kickstarter for something similar called Dragon Kings. Check it out here.

Dragon Kings looks interesting, and the artwork in the Kickstarter video is great ^_^ (I think Baxa was as much responsible for the look/feel of Dark Sun in its latter years as Brom was when it first started).


Freedom16 wrote:
Are you going to use any of the psionic classes outside of the core 4? I've played Dark Sun with pathfinder a few times and used a Vitalist as the healer role as elemental clerics were more the kind to blow stuff up or drown you, etc. The Dread was also a good class for Sorcerer Kings minions, also Aegis seems appropriate and just fluff the armor as dense obsidian.

Again, although I haven't played my own 'house rules' version yet, I do agree with you that the Vitalist is a good sub for the "healing cleric" in a standard D&D game, and I love the 'flavor' of the Dread class.

I also like the idea of The Inquisitor class as a class for a NPC Villain for the PCs (working for a Sorcerer-King to hunt down rivals to his rule).


Well, although I haven't read your conversions yet, I'm also one of those people who have been looking for a good Pathfinder-compatible version of the Dark Sun setting.

Like you I will ignore much of the 4th Edition version, although I did pick up the campaign book, mostly for the 'flavor text' (descriptions of regions and peoples), and the artwork (setting and monsters, etc).

In regards to Half-Giants: Strangely enough, I like the look of the Goliath race, so for my campaign that's the 'default' look of half-giants (makes them more visually distinct than 'giant sized dwarves' ^_^). I think I'll stick with the "Expanded Psionics Handbook" version of their stats, as opposed to those in "Psionics Unleashed" (in the original material, they didn't seem all that intuitive/wise to me).

I looked at the Athas.org conversion to 3.5 and, truth to tell, I think it suffered from being too complex (because the makers had such a love for the original setting). Their Defiling rules are a bit confusing to me (as opposed to those in Dragon Magazine #315, which made it a simple matter of 'free' metamagic feats at a cost (kinda like Dark Side points in the Star Wars RPG), and their half-giants and Thri-Kreen were just WAY overpowered, even for a Dark Sun campaign.

As others have also said, I like the 4e explanation for why the gods no longer exist on Athas (and people who know the history of Dregoth the Undead Sorcerer King can see some justification for at least one demi-god level being on Athas in ancient times). For my own campaign, though, I will be changing MUCH of the history of the Sorcerer-kings and their reasons for being (to be short, they are the last survivors of the 'dead' races, who transformed themselves to fight against Borys, who was bent on their destruction: I see Hamanu as the last Orc, and Abalach-Re as the last Nymph [no idea who the other are yet ^_^]).

I will take a look at your conversion, though, and mine it for ideas for my own campaign (which I admit I'll probably never run [players are hard to come by where I live], but I have fun fine tuning my 'house rules' ^_^).

Thanks for the hard work!


Looks good, looking forward to it (Ulimate Psionics may have to wate until Christmas, but this'll do in the meantime ^_^)