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I was really hoping for a more detailed economic system in this AP but all we got was an abstract BP system that cannot really be put into actual wealth. Digging through the module there is an abstract translation to actual wealth in
I wish we had more to go on since this seems like a really interesting concept to really play up the Free Trader portion of the game.
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The problem is, that the economy "system" of Starfinder is not working at all in a realistic way and due to this you can't substidue BP for credits etc.
It's working for the more level based/gated game system. but if you want a more realistic system, where you can exchange BP for credits you would have to change the hole system and not only the economy system.
A good start would be to cap the weapon damage and instead adding more special abilities to higher tier weapons (this also means you have to cap the hp/sp). This way you can build a more linear (realistic) economy system (instead of the expotential (unrealistic) one we have right now).
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I agree that it would require significant more work, probably a Starships Unleashed book, but it is really the only way I can see a tramp freighter working. Mechanically, there is no reason to be a working stiff on a ship or own your own ships because there is no baseline mechanism to BUYING a ship other than using BPs, which you cannot pay for with credits/UPBs.
The only way to have a ship is to handwave it ("yeah you guys start with a tier 1 ship" or "you work for EJ and they let you use one.") or steal one. How did EJ manage to purchase the ship to start with? How did the starship dealer get his/her/their inventory?
The baseline system to buying another ship is to trade in your old one for a new one at level up. Or for more than one of lower tiers.
Not super detailed, I get it, but it implies prices outside the WBL chart, where only trade ins can get the average character a new ship and all others are bought at the super rich and/or corporate level.
None of this is detailed in system. The designers felt this was not the thing an average group wants to deal with, and so left it in the realm of the handwave. I'm personally glad they did, as I wouldn't want to deal with this in a starfinder game. It works for traveller, but that's a very different genre of game.
If you want to house rule it in, you easily can. You'll just have to deal with either ultra rich players, or ships costing a fraction of what they probably should.
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I totally understand your points. It is nice to have an abstract system like what we got, but this system does not really fit in well with a Traveller or Firefly type game. There is no getting rich being a free hauler because you can't get credits from it.
No, I'm saying that if you change the system so you can get rich and can buy ships with credits, there are a number of knock on effects that butterfly throughout the whole system.
Starfinder really isn't built to be a traveller style game. The best you can do in the rules is give out narrative rewards for trading, including ways to upgrade player's ships.
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If I were y’all, I’d stay tuned and hold out a bit before you make any judgments from the first volume alone. Some of the later volumes in FFoD do some really interesting things with that BP system, IMO. #34 just set up the dominoes.
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I'm prepping book 2, Merchants of the Void, and am really starting to wonder where the money is? Chapter 2 has all these options to spend money getting ready for the defrex drive, with a required licensing fee of 150cr per PC.
If the party sells literally everything they could possibly recover in Book 2 up to his point, they'd have 2434; the only way to get all this stuff is to murder Rygan Vuul, plunder his place, and rip out his necrografts. Considering that there are multiple avenues where the party just makes a deal with him, either through blackmail, volunteering as guinea pigs, or just paying the BPs, there is a very great chance they'll have made 0 credits since the end of Book 1 by the time they need to gear up for the defrex rodeo. All the other rewards offered in the book are in BPs, thus non-fungible.
My players are flat broke after kitting themselves out for the raid on the Horse Eye Orbital Plate, as they didn't want to kill anyone (I ruled that nonlethal Electrical damage worked on anacites and needed to pick up nonlethal weapons. They felt (rightly, in my opinion) that the gewgaws they stole from the office supply room were back pay for having been screwed over so hard on their last few jobs, and spent it all on toolkits, halfway decent armor, and other basic supplies. They don't have anything left to drop 750 cr on wrangling licenses, much less all the other gear (400 cr to rent a defrex? Why would a level 2 character have that much sitting around when there is so much they still need to get for basic functionality?)
I have a sinking feeling that all of the players' rewards in this AP will be in BPs, but they will still be facing level-appropriate challenges lacking the wherewithal to keep their armor up to par, much less other gear. Can anyone who's further along the AP assuage my fears that my players will feel severely under-funded the entire time?
My players are flat broke...
I have a sinking feeling that all of the players' rewards in this AP will be in BPs, but they will still be facing level-appropriate challenges lacking the wherewithal to keep their armor up to par, much less other gear.
This is my fear as well. My group is swimming in Build Points, but BP don't do a damn thing for a character's actual personal gear.
I've also noticed that a lot of gear found on enemies is heavy weapons & heavy armor, nearly ensuring that only Soldier PCs will be able to utilize this stuff without extra feats.
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Update: As I expected, my players cut a deal with Rygan Vuul, volunteering as lab rats in exchange for 50 tons of cargo. The exchange rate there just doesn't make sense at all (neither does a corpse lease granting such a big discount from Rishae; 5 corpse leases would equal 50 tons of necrografts!) So, they ended up taking none of his loot.
Just for the sake of moving the game forward, I've ended up instituting a limited BP-for-cash scheme, where the crew can sell a BP for 500 CR a number of times equal to their APL. So, my 3rd-level party got 1500 cr, without which they would not have been able to afford renting a single enercycle for the Great Defrex Drive, and almost certainly have failed almost all of the checks.They're trying to be good guys, so forging licenses and stealing vehicles was discussed and rejected.
I think allowing a few BPs to get turned into cash each level will at least keep them from falling behind so fast as they proceed. They, too, are swimming in BPs after a single side run, but once their ship is built out, it seems like the only BPs can be spent on are ways to get more BPs. Otherwise, everyone's having fun, but having just come off Extinction Curse, there's a lot of comparison between the two over how the min-games don't really mesh with the rest.
The enemies seem to be extremely light on credsticks all around.
I'll add up the current wealth the PCs have by the end of book 1 and probably toss in some money so they can be within expectations of a level 3 character.
They have been collecting and equipping a lot of loot, though...
Is everyone running a 4 people campaign?
and my players want to know why they're not getting any actual money for this shipment of guns they hijacked, and its a fair question really - they're stealing it anyway, why would they pass the money along to the seller?
Well, if they are selling to the resistance they do get a crate of tactical infinity rifles (worth 5,200 credits) and a crate of mk 2 frag grenades (worth 4,960 credits). That's over 10k in loot!
Granted, if sold they only amount to 1,016 credits...
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Yeah all the books so far do not really add up to a real merchant adventure since there is no real way to translate the cool BP process to actual wealth. This is really just a space dungeon crawl in-between cargo runs just to keep your ship up-to-tier instead of a GM finding some other way to get a level appropriate ship.
Well, nobody forced them to sell to the Resistance and collect only half pay. Last time it didn't work quite so well, and they willingly insist on the same mistake? Vog kinda makes it clear they are lacking in resources.
And the payment in the planet is to be collected for the seller and EJ, the group is just delivery. It's extremely weird they never get a salary and have to loot corpses to survive, but it's their job.
Most weird stuff can be blamed on "alien culture", or in this case, "alien economics"... it would have helped to establish that there are no salaries from the get go, so the players don't keep expecting to be paid in credits.
Forklifts: I bet they didn't give any vehicles or even a friggin Cargo Lifter to the PCs because it would definitely be used in combat. But they wasted an opportunity not introducing a level 1 EJ complete-garbage powered armor.
Communication: That was indeed an error, but fixed in book 2 already. An oversight I believe.
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Seems like the PCs only work in fringe, last minute and/or high risk assignments - jobs nobody else would take due to the low success probability. And that’s why EJ gets such a huge share of the pay.
In the first job there's a suggested buyer, but the main objective is to sell, at all costs, and they are informed there’s a huge demand for the product. In the second job there is a contract already, and not selling to the Gideron Authority will get the PCs fired - although EJ seems to fire them based solely on lack of complete payment. The seller doesn’t file a complaint, since he’s interested in the PCs, but perhaps that could have gotten them fired as well. Not enough pages in the book to go inside EJ policies.
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I have seen plenty of smaller transport companies that use only manpower to carry stuff around, but never in the scale the PCs are working - not to mention the presence of a starship and other high-tech devices available.
If the ship wasn't made for cargo at least... but there are huge cargo doors on the sides. If you had to move everything through the airlocks, sure, no forklifts would go through that.
This issue doesn't bother me, though. It seems to be there to reinforce the blue collar worker feel.
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My PCs are inside the Project Oliphaunt, about to start the boss fight. All parts felt very different from each other, and quite unique. The grey morals, constant failures, overall despair and sourness have been a blast to GM - I’ll ask the players their opinions after we are done with book 1.
I'm with you, Ragi. I'm having blast GMing this and my players are having a great time playing.
I haven't had any issues running the adventure as written, and everything has flowed along nicely so far.
It's actually the most fun I've had running a game in a long time, even with it being online (I generally hate playing virtual, but... COVID...)
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My hang up with it is that it is billed as a merchant AP, Firefly-esk. This is difficult because of the two separate systems of credits and BP and they have no conversion. BP's are completely useless outside of ships, so doing cargo runs to make BP to do what? The only reason to do that is to make your ship better, not your life.
So adjust it to fit your group's preferences. That's the beauty of role-playing games!
A proportional reward would be nice = for every 1 BP the group gets, they also get 250 credits or something.
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Or, from book 2, Side jobs article, page 45:
"Additionally, if your players come up short of their expected wealth by level, it may be worthwhile to use a side job as a way to provide them with some extra credits without having to shoehorn them into an existing encounter."
Some reasonable dough on the two jobs presented...
My group has just arrived on the Horse Eye Orbital Plate. Next session will see them attempt to steal the Oliphaunt. They've noticed the off-kilter economics (they've already started to Greyhawk the bodies), but haven't complained too loudly yet. Once they've got the Oliphanut I'm going to institute some side jobs in credits and others in BP.
Has anybody thrown in a starship combat, yet? I just can't imagine that EJ Corp and Eline Reisora have this super cool new transport and NO security. My thought is there are two interceptors parked out in the black, just in case somebody tries to slip away with the Oliphaunt.
Alternatively, the interceptors could be Golden League ships at the asteroid base where they deliver the Oliphaunt.
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I have a great group of all first time roleplayers in their first game of any kind. They say they're enjoying the game even as some of them struggle with learning the mechanics, but I have a different issue I'm about to run into.
We just finished Book 1 and during the Orbital Plate heist my players made sure to hack into Eline's computer and download all the technical data for the null-space cargo hold. When we start Book 2 in a few weeks I anticipate they're going to want to do what Sinjin said he was going to do with them: sell the technology to AbadarCorp or another customer for the promised amount of riches "beyond your wildest dreams."
I imagine that the tech really would be worth a lot of credits! I'm trying to brainstorm ways to head off this massive plot hole that isn't even hinted at in passing as Book 2 starts.
1. Because they didn't make an effort to disguise themselves and they had to travel to the Orbital Plate as shareholders, security cameras caught the heist and now they're wanted fugitives with a large bounty on their heads. No reputable corporation like AbadarCorp would want to be associated with purchasing stolen tech. Tarika will have to urge them to change the name and designation of the Oliphaunt before they arrive on Absalom Station, otherwise it'll be confiscated and they'll be arrested.
2. Even if they want to find a less reputable buyer, I can rule that the data is encrypted and only Eline knows the encryption key, making the info useless until decrypted. However, getting to Eline and getting the encryption key from her is a bit outside of Book 2's plotline.
3. They're still not sure that Sinjin is behind everything and were musing aloud that maybe Deminda was acting on her own when she attacked them inside the asteroid. I can see the players wanting to contact Sinjin and try to complete the deal, and he's a good enough liar to find out what their thoughts on this are and to go along with the idea until he can double-cross them again. Ideas? I hate to keep going back to Tarika as their inside source of all useful plot railroad information.
4. I'm also thinking that most buyers will be unwilling to buy such fanciful far-fetched technology without proof of practical application and stability. Lots of folks have probably promised similar tech breakthroughs in the past and I'm going to have potential buyers unwilling to shell out the big credits up front until after the players have pulled off a few transport jobs without the ship imploding. However, this just kicks the can down the road, it doesn't really solve the problem because after the side jobs they'll just circle back to wanting to sell the tech again.
Anyone have any ideas or suggestions to work around the issue?
I'm also in agreement with everyone's analysis of the economics of the early parts of the AP. Luckily my players are all new so they don't realize just how poor their characters are compared to where they should be.
4. I'm also thinking that most buyers will be unwilling to buy such fanciful far-fetched technology without proof of practical application and stability. Lots of folks have probably promised similar tech breakthroughs in the past and I'm going to have potential buyers unwilling to shell out the big credits up front until after the players have pulled off a few transport jobs without the ship imploding. However, this just kicks the can down the road, it doesn't really solve the problem because after the side jobs they'll just circle back to wanting to sell the tech again.
I'd go with this one, and have abadarcorp really lowballing the amount since the tech is 'untested'. To get that major payday (at the end book of the AP I'd assume) they need to provide plenty of test data and show their work to sell a package deal for their retirement money. Not just a few side jobs, they need to stress test the tech to make a major profit.
I don't think the data alone would be worth much without turning in a cargo-hold or two, or without the scientists that developed it - it isn't a recipe to create null-cargo holds. You could let them roll an engineering check to reach similar conclusions.
Eline's computer probably doesn't even have the goods: "contains schematics for the Oliphaunt, a map of the facility, and a history of the project, including the information from the training vid in area C3". I think they would need to hack the server room (impossible) or the computers on the factory floor: "a secure data module protected by a firewall (Computers DC 25 to hack) contains schematics for the Oliphaunt’s hybrid null-space cargo holds".
Big enterprises will turn the characters in to the authorities (it's obviously stolen), shady enterprises will want to off the characters to keep the monopoly on the information.
They're still not sure that Sinjin is behind everything and were musing aloud that maybe Deminda was acting on her own when she attacked them inside the asteroid.
That's kinda hilarious. Though my players are about to enter the small habitation suite to complete the transaction - who knows which way this will go!
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I'll offer the party an option before book 2 starts: (a) continue with the main plot immediately (b) go into a tiny side-quest for some cash money, then resume plot.
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To get that major payday (at the end book of the AP I'd assume) they need to provide plenty of test data and show their work to sell a package deal for their retirement money. Not just a few side jobs, they need to stress test the tech to make a major profit.
I'll probably be eventually cherry-picking bits and pieces from all four ideas, and more. This is a good expansion on #4.
"So, can living creatures survive there for long periods of time? What about foodstuffs, do they go bad? Explosives? Cargo needing extreme temperatures, like medicines? Liquids? If I put a giant fish tank in there, will I have to worry about sloshing? What do you even know about null space? Come back when you have an independently verified engineering analysis."
Eline's computer probably doesn't even have the goods: "contains schematics for the Oliphaunt, a map of the facility, and a history of the project, including the information from the training vid in area C3". I think they would need to hack the server room (impossible) or the computers on the factory floor: "a secure data module protected by a firewall (Computers DC 25 to hack) contains schematics for the Oliphaunt’s hybrid null-space cargo holds".
They did try to hack the servers and failed miserably, of course, on what they thought was a very good roll, but left before triggering the trap a second time when I told them they could feel it building up a higher level of power. (I told them later what would have happened, lol!) After that they never tried to access the computers in the manufacturing space. It makes sense that detailed construction schematics would be completely isolated and offline to minimize the chance of corporate theft. All Eline has to do is run the manufacturing program again and install another null space module in a different ship.
"What do you mean, the most useful thing we got was the company training video?"
In the asteroid one of them made the Sense Motive check, then they got paranoid and wouldn't enter, leading to one large running battle mostly outside rather than two separate engagements.
I think I'll give the drow, especially Dreminda, some generous credsticks. Seems like something they should have had, anyway.
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Is everyone running a 4 people campaign?
Even then the loot really doesn't keep up. This seems to be a thing with a lot of paizo APs
I'm not sure if they're
over valuing how much of the found loot the party will use
Overvaluing rapid upgrades (they get the level 4 armor now the level 5 armor next book and both count for full price)
Thinking that the only gear players need is weapons and armor (when I see most players cash go into personal upgrades and cybernetics)
Just plain low on loot.
Is everyone running a 4 people campaign?
Even then the loot really doesn't keep up. This seems to be a thing with a lot of paizo APs
I'm not sure if they're
over valuing how much of the found loot the party will use
Overvaluing rapid upgrades (they get the level 4 armor now the level 5 armor next book and both count for full price)
Thinking that the only gear players need is weapons and armor (when I see most players cash go into personal upgrades and cybernetics)
Just plain low on loot.
To be fair that's been the case since pathfinder 1. Especially if you ever played without the broken mess that was pf1 crafting.
No idea if the trend continues into pf2.
Still, this AP seems exceptionally light on credit rewards. Probably a good idea to add credits to BP rewards as well.
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PF 1 crafting canceled out the PF1 AP loot deficit...
PF 1 crafting canceled out the PF1 AP loot deficit...
I agree, but it was a bad habit for AP writers to fall into.
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Is everyone running a 4 people campaign?
I run a three player AotS Campaign (Soldier (Power Armor + Ranged), Solarian (Solar Weapon + Heavy Armor), Mystic (Power Armor)) and it worked out from the loot. Sure there were times when they don't had armor AND Weapon Level equal to their char level, but this didn't really hurted them.
Especially with the "4 hour crafting any item" they were able to customize their equipment to their needs.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After reading the above, I think BPs are valuable, I mean they can buy starships; the PCs could expand their Logistics Company with BP and eventually have enough of them to build a fleet and even an armada. They could attempt to rule the stars! With all that fire-power they will be earning credits left and right.
Also, ppl mentioned selling the Oliphaunt schematics; however, the full schematics are in the Server room, which is virtually impossible to hack at the PCs level. The "schematics" that the PCs find in Eline's office and on the Factor Floor are actually the starship's and null-space cargo hold's specifications. You can find these on the inside cover of book 2 + the floor plans. The note-boards on the factory floor most likely depict why the Oliphaunt was fitted with the upgrades such as the HAC.
I'm going to run with the new BP rule and see how things turn out. ...Remember to read the rule carefully b/c they state that BPs actually represent credits: bank loans and other assets (they are not liquid assets).
You're gonna need a heck of a lot of BP just to make a second ship that doesn't get blown up in the next starship encounter you're involved in.
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Like you said, BPs are not liquid assets. They don't make you objectively more wealthy with the current system. You could have a billion BPs and still not be able to afford a laser pistol, and that is the problem I have with the current system.
You can't, because the system publishes guidelines for both normal wealth in credits and BP for ships that PCs should have at each level. If they have 1000 BP to spend, they're supposed to have 2.3million credits of gear, too. If there is a discrepancy the fault lies not in the system, dear Brutus, but in our GMs.
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Reducing Starfinder to a slower-paced version of Wing Commander: Privateer seems like a waste of time and resources. I felt the abstracted trade system provided by Jason Tondro was more than adequate to address the concerns of GM's/players who wanted to work for their ship upgrades, without turning it into a game of "board the enemy ship, sell it for parts, and never have to care about gear for the rest of the game".
If you wanted to compensate the players with credits via their trade objective then you should withhold the rewards you would otherwise give for any encounters they had to get through to deliver their cargo.
But you can't have it both ways - (loot/credits per encounter, AND fungible BP) without breaking the game. If it bothers you that this game doesn't support that kind of granularity, then I suggest Traveller or Stars Without Number instead of trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.
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I am not trying to shove a peg into anything. I am trying to work out why anyone would want to "get rich" as a free trader in this game (basically the premise of the whole AP) when this is not really possible with the current system limitations.
It's not really about getting rich. That's just a byproduct that comes with the story the AP is telling, particularly in book 4.
It's about flying free, out from under anyone's thumb (see: firefly).
Me and my group are having more fun with this AP than I've had in my 20+ years of GMing. And not one player (of which I have 5) has brought up any issues with money/treasure.
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I am not trying to shove a peg into anything. I am trying to work out why anyone would want to "get rich" as a free trader in this game (basically the premise of the whole AP) when this is not really possible with the current system limitations.
like a lot of get rich ideas, or gambling you make your reputation on the way up and your money on the way out. You spend a fair bit of time putting money into your business so you can get more money so you can put it into your business so you can get more money so... but eventually you hop off the carousel and cash out. If you combine the cash payout for a level 8 adventure and the cash you could get for a level 8 ship (whatever that is) you're looking at a pretty nice nest egg for retirement.
It IS possible to do, it just kind of ends the adventurer and starts the "and then they lived happily ever after" part.
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I am not trying to shove a peg into anything. I am trying to work out why anyone would want to "get rich" as a free trader in this game (basically the premise of the whole AP) when this is not really possible with the current system limitations.like a lot of get rich ideas, or gambling you make your reputation on the way up and your money on the way out. You spend a fair bit of time putting money into your business so you can get more money so you can put it into your business so you can get more money so... but eventually you hop off the carousel and cash out. If you combine the cash payout for a level 8 adventure and the cash you could get for a level 8 ship (whatever that is) you're looking at a pretty nice nest egg for retirement.
It IS possible to do, it just kind of ends the adventurer and starts the "and then they lived happily ever after" part.
And I totally understand this concept, but it just rubs me the wrong way that there is no mechanical benefit to running cargo because there is no real way for it to make sense financially since there is no actual hard conversion. I do know this is how the system was intended, but from a credit-pinching small family business, there is no real path here with the current BP system. That might be fine and dandy for 95% of people, but going into an AP with the Firefly theme, I wanted the FEEL of Firefly that this cargo run might not be enough to cover business expenses AND pay the crew (ya know, in credits because they don't want abstract BPs for payment).
I get it; it is working as intended. I just wanted more (insert Anakin meme).