The Fifth Archdaemon

River of Sticks's page

563 posts (1,110 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 9 aliases.


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Saves: F: +8 | R: +7 | W: +9 | CMD: 20 | Init: +9 | Per: +10 | DV 60' L.Fighter (Weapon Master) / Tactician (Battle Medic) 3 | Vigor: 32/35 | Wounds: 36 | Def: 15 | FF: 15 | DR 5/adamantine | Crit Def: +16 | | Init: +9 | Per: +10 | DV 60'| Speed: 40' | PP: 18 | SP: 7 | MP: 5 | Resist 5 Fire, Cold, Electricity

@ Ynja, Can we take a step back for a moment? Your last couple posts have seemed aggressive / confrontational towards the rest of the party, and seem to work against a group dynamic or developing the story. We are all here to play a group game, and I don't think anyone here wants to shut down someone else's fun; but it also seems like we might be trying to play a different kind of game than you want to play right now.

I'd just like to touch base about what we are trying to do, and get everyone back on to the same page of a group dynamic so we can progress the story as a group and not fight in different directions.


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Unfortunately I cannot find them on an SRD...

One suggestion I do have - allow similar classes to poach talents. IE, an Avenger Vigilante can choose slayer talents, a stalker vigilante can choose rogue talents or investigator talents, a rogue can choose ninja tricks or investigator talents, etc. I can't say I've actually looked to see how balanced it would all end up, though.


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

Apologies for my recent absence posting over the last couple of weeks; my wife just gave birth to our firstborn. Starting to recover and ready to jump back in as well.


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I'll throw my two cents in; Kirthfinder has much better scaling feats/abilities, frequently tied to skill ranks or investment in skills. On a personal level, I enjoy the martial focused class design much more. There are a lot fewer feat taxes, it's easier to get in full attacks/ equivalent abilities and still stay mobile, etc. The class design is much more cohesive as well.

I'm good either way. Kirthfinder does present some compatability concerns in terms of playing nicely with the myriad other sub systems and abilities, but we wouldn't be posting interest in this game if we weren't willing to deal with some level of that anyways. Having looked at Porphya, the nicest thing about it for me was the scaling feats, but even that doesn't matter too much with the high number of feats we can pick + artifacts offering more. Mostly I'm enthused about the concept and the mechanical crunch, regardless of flavor of crunch.


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Not quite the full rule list, but here's my personal cheat sheet for everything we "get" pre-choices by the player.

Basic Package Bonuses at Level 16:
+5 Competence to attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, saving throws, and initiative (Chopping the Tree)
6 bonus feats (Chopping the Tree)
4 bonus Gift/Knack feats (Chopping the Tree)
+3 to all Attributes (Chopping the Tree)
8x +2 to one attribute; cannot be the same one in a row (Chopping the Tree)
50% chance to bypass hardness, DR, and incorporeal or ethereal miss chance (Chopping the Tree)

4x +2 to one attribute (Mythic, standard)
8x Path abilities from two paths each (Dual Path Mythic)

50 regular feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules, 16 levels of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side))
26 Mythic Feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules 8 tiers of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side) )
Elephant in the Room Feat Tax Rules (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)
Signature Skill and Combat Stamina (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)

No more than 8 Mythic Horrifically Overpowered Feats
No more than 16 Horrifically Overpowered Feats; Gestalt and Prestigious can be taken multiple times.

16 CR worth of templates; can trade out for PrC or Base Class levels at a 1:1 basis. Up to 8 levels of PrC progression, Gestalt, or Prestigious adds to BAB, HD, Saves, Skills, etc as well as class features (Discussion in recruitment thread)

Deflection AC +5, Ability scores +6/+4/+2 or +4 all, Natural Armor Enhancement bonus +5, Weapon Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Armor Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Resistance to Saves +5 (ABP+2)

Wealth is an open question... Per both Chopping the Tree and ABP, we should have ~ 1/2 * 1/5 = ~30,000 gp.


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I like 16/16 regular gestalt with 8/8 mythic, and the 16 CR of templates or PrCs, with PrCs stacking above the 16 HD total. Inflating ability scores directly via 1:1 point buy is pretty effective for bringing numbers up. I’m not familiar with the “Disciple” template at all. Sounds interesting.

If a test run showed that we can’t manage with that we could expand then. I had a thought and then remembered we can pick the action economy every turn, allowing non-natural attack users to still full attack.


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

"That's a good idea, Kolmac. It will at least give them something, for whatever comfort that can bring." Aemur looks around at the small group, hesitating before voicing his concern. "Who should we go to with this? I cannot believe the Baron knows, but we have seen evidence of lies and corruption within his own guardsmen... Who can we trust?"

Aemur's words come slowly, his tone somber. The reality of the situation has him unsure which is the worst discovery of the day; the black altar and its grisly surroundings, or the realization that the authorities that should be protecting the people may be involved in the predations.


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

Leveling up to Level 2:

Aemur is so enraged by the sight of the children’s skeletons that it fills his veins with righteous indignation, driving rational thought from his mind for a moment. As the blind wrath recedes from his mind, he knows he can summon it again at any time; this travesty shall not be forgotten.

2nd level, Multiclassing into Barbarian.
+6 HP, Rage, Totem, Bonus Feats, and Furious Counterstroke.
Ouroboros Totem: +2 to K. Planes, Planar Sense; Favored Terrain: Plains
+1 skill point to Athletics, Endurance, and Perception
6 skill ranks + 1 background: K. Planes, C. Needlework, C. Alchemy, Streetwise, Spellcraft, Planar Sense, K. Planes
Acrobatics as a Class Skill
Endure Elements between -50 F and 140 F.

Aemur feels an urge to work with his needles and thread when he finds a moment to himself, adding stitches representing strength and stability to his cloak. (He will add a +1 to Strength (1,000 numen) to his boots.

Question on Proficiencies: Aemur traded Medium Armor and shields for the Canny Defense feat. Can he also trade Barbarian proficiencies for Dodge and the Exotic Unarmed Proficiency?


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

Aemur eyes the necklace with wary distrust. "Does anyone else see the red heart of that cursed thing? I think you are wise to avoid touching it, Dairkal. And yet we should probably retrieve it in some manner... I can fashion a kind of sling from some branches to carry it from a distance." Aemur is itchy to be out of the basement, and making something from natural materials seems like a marvelous excu... reason... to depart, at least for the moment.


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Saves: F: +8 | R: +7 | W: +9 | CMD: 20 | Init: +9 | Per: +10 | DV 60' L.Fighter (Weapon Master) / Tactician (Battle Medic) 3 | Vigor: 32/35 | Wounds: 36 | Def: 15 | FF: 15 | DR 5/adamantine | Crit Def: +16 | | Init: +9 | Per: +10 | DV 60'| Speed: 40' | PP: 18 | SP: 7 | MP: 5 | Resist 5 Fire, Cold, Electricity

So I'm thinking if we go this route to invert a bunch of assumptions and create fraternal twins. : Twin A as the dark, brooding character, but he is actually a great buffer - handing out bonuses to the group and taking some of the battlefield control types of paths. Sort of a deep voiced, pessimistic guy, but working to make sure the worst is staved off through thinking ahead and planning. Twin B is light hearted kind of gal, who takes on a fierce aspect in battle with hugely destructive blasts/attacks and a shining glory of righteousness that strikes fear into the hearts of the enemy - a blunt hammer that can smash into whatever stands before, but tempered by her brother's advice. She rushes into situations, and he tries to plan ahead to get them out after the fact.


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

On the subject of botting Cayden - with the holidays in the states, I know several people who took 4-day weekends, so I'm on board with waiting till Monday.


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Human Hexblade Warlock 1 | HP: 15/15 THP: 0 | AC 17 | INIT +4 (Adv) | P: +4 (Adv), PPerc: 19 | DV 120'

Mistra reacts to the gnoll repelling down by attempting to give it a solid thwack with her quarterstaff. With two gnolls on the ground, she's starting to feel outnumbered!

She redoubles her focus on attacking, believing the best defense is a good offense.

Assuming the purple one rappels into Mistra's reach, that is. Also remembering to use the Bless from Valghaz this time!

Reaction Attack vs Purple: 1d20 + 1d4 + 6 ⇒ (12) + (2) + 6 = 201d6 + 4 ⇒ (4) + 4 = 8
Attack Quarterstaff: 1d20 + 1d4 + 6 ⇒ (16) + (4) + 6 = 261d6 + 4 ⇒ (4) + 4 = 8
Attack Quarterstaff BA: 1d20 + 1d4 + 6 ⇒ (5) + (1) + 6 = 121d4 + 4 ⇒ (1) + 4 = 5


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Philippe Lam wrote:
For the purposes of Vital Strike, it's a single attack, full-stop. The character still can't get both ends of the weapon. Hero Lab is known to make some things wrong, and that is no exception.

Are you sure? Vital Strike says you can use it with the Attack Action. A Full Attack is just taking more than 1 Attack Action. The off hand attack is still an attack action.

The difference between an Attack Action an a Standard Action is that sometimes you can get more than 1 Attack Action as part of a Full Attack.

I think Herolabs is right on this one, but we could both be wrong.

No. Vital strike is 1 attack. The attack action is a standard action. This has been brought up since the game launched

Vital Strike says you can use it when you take the Attack Action. When you are Full Attacking, you are taking nothing but Attack Actions.

Can you explain further? Cite a rule or something?

An Attack Action is a Standard Action Attack. A full attack is NOT a bunch of Attack Actions; it is a full round action that allows your iteratives, as determined by BAB, to also be made. The Full Attack text never calls out an Attack Action; they are different rules elements.


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Human Hexblade Warlock 1 | HP: 15/15 THP: 0 | AC 17 | INIT +4 (Adv) | P: +4 (Adv), PPerc: 19 | DV 120'

After having the direction helpfully pointed out by Aric, Mistra does a quick check of the surrounding area to make sure everyone is ready, and then suggests the group head in the direction of the river. If the group can reach the river, they will know roughly where they are.

Just trying to keep some presence up!


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Human Hexblade Warlock 1 | HP: 15/15 THP: 0 | AC 17 | INIT +4 (Adv) | P: +4 (Adv), PPerc: 19 | DV 120'

Hearing the sounds of battle grow quiet, Mistra speaks. Ummm... Guys? Penance? A bit of help here? I don't feel so good...

Mistra is still stuck in the spider webbing, and not liking her chances of breaking free anytime soon...


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Human Hexblade Warlock 1 | HP: 15/15 THP: 0 | AC 17 | INIT +4 (Adv) | P: +4 (Adv), PPerc: 19 | DV 120'

As the brown spider scurries into view, Mistra makes one last attack at the spider...thing... as it drags Penance out of the light.

Attack Quarterstaff: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (11) + 6 = 171d6 + 4 ⇒ (6) + 4 = 10
Attack Quarterstaff: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (9) + 6 = 151d6 + 4 ⇒ (2) + 4 = 6

Poisoned, so yeah... Disadvantage on the attack.

She's being dragged left! Come on, everyone! Mistra does not want to lose the Tiefling. Quite aside from the assistance in combat, she seems to be an interesting person. Plus, there's no telling what Aric's reaction would be to losing his boss... Let's not go there. We'll get her back.


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

My two cents as well - From the forum posts and game rules I've read, Kirth's games don't really center around combat and hero moments like an action movie. Your character is a three dimensional concept, and while I absolutely love the mechanical changes Kirth has come up with to make combat more flexible and martials less story-poor, the game itself is about interactions.

EDIT: Also, PbP is a great way to start your first campaign. There's plenty of time to look things up, and you can PM the GM / Other players if things are setup that way for help too. Or ask on the discussion thread of the campaign, as you did here.

I am going to have limited time to post for the next few days as I am on a work trip with limited time to access the internet. If something comes up, please assume that Aemur is looking for evidence fo the guards involvement. Specifically, the notched bootprint. He intends to look for more evidence of the bootprint, and I'll hopefully have a chance to write that up tomorrow.


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Changeling Reaper/Magister 6 | V: 50 W: 53 / MP: 5/5 | D 17 TAC 17 DR 6/- Resist Fire, NE, Cold, Electricity 10 | INIT +7, F +10 / R +9 / W +8 | P: +12, DV 60', LLV

I will be throwing out a Haste, as soon as combat "starts". At round/level, we want Arc to have as much benefit from it as we can, rather than waste rounds while octopus guy/gal postures..


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

Aemur nods to Kolmac. Their own narrative, certainly. I dare say they will not allow many questions, either. I wonder if they have uniform footwear... Officer Coward's boots are not the nicked ones, but another member of the group might be identifiable. I wonder how high the rot goes...


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Gosclaw Mechanic 2 | SP: 12 / HP: 16 / RP: 3/4 | EAC 14 KAC 15 Resist Fire 5 | INIT +3, F +3 / R +6 / W +0 | P: +5, DV 60', LLV

Krizen stares, aghast in disbelief, as MIra's chatter rolls on... and on... and on. He turns to Bonar. Bravo, we might want to fire up the weapons and get strapped in... Once Mira has finished, he speaks up a bit louder. Captain, we may want to buckle in, just in case we have to make an aggressive landing. I'm ready on the shields.


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Human Hexblade Warlock 1 | HP: 15/15 THP: 0 | AC 17 | INIT +4 (Adv) | P: +4 (Adv), PPerc: 19 | DV 120'

Here we are! Aliased up now.
Silver: 1d10 ⇒ 2
Forgot to roll that earlier.


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Oops - Thanks for catching that! Mistra was a burglar, and personality would be "Rather make a new friend than an enemy". She has enough troubles with the path she has chosen; she doesn't need to complicate it further with unneeded enemies.


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There's a reason bars and taverns are natural meeting places!


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

Aemur:
Aemur is troubled by the destruction of the goblin camp, and the open nature of the return tracks. The attack was not hidden, and though some effort was made to disguise it, that effort was just a token show. He has only been in Paillard a few days and has been staying at the local inn / tavern while he explored some of the rock caves in the area. Aemur has not had much experience with "adventure", and isn't even sure whether he is currently on one. He does know that running through caves and exploring the forest is much more fun than standing at guard duty; after this morning's discoveries, he also realizes that it is much more dangerous in the general world as well, and he will not be leaving his armor and weapons in the inn as he would have at home, and had the day before. Aemur enters the inn.

Ho, Innkeep! I am returned with naught but dust from the caves! It's been thirsty work - I'll take an ale, sir. Aemur sips at the ale as he looks over the folk in the room - some look like regulars, and one or two like strangers to the town. He looks back to the innkeeper. Innkeeper, have there been any hunting parties out last night or today? I slept in one of the caves but thought I heard a hunt run through south of town.
direction chosen arbitrarily

Diplomacy: 1d20 + 0 ⇒ (4) + 0 = 4


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Kirthfinder Discussion Thread

There's a lot there, spanning multiple versions of development. The basic goals and intentions for the system are the same throughout, though, so it's still informative.


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

I am good with Paillard.

On the skills, I thought the bonus from Favored terrain only applied in Favored terrain? Or is it because P. Mining would only be applicable underground in the first place?


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M Half Dwarf Ranger Barbarian 2 | HP: 16 | AC: 17 | FF: 16 | TAC: 14 | Saves: F: +2 | R: +2 | I: +3 | W: +0 | CMD: 16 | Init: +0 | Per: +5 (Eagle Eyes) | DV 70' | Speed: 30' | Alertness +1 | See Ethereal 10’

Here we go. Moved around some attribute scores - a little lower in some areas to reduce the absolutely dreadful CHA dump. Everything except some misc. non-magical equipment should be together. Initial Mark of the Wild choices will either be a non-combat mount or a non-combat flying scout. May just purchase a mount / pony if I can figure out pricing for that.

Aemur Farstride:

Male half-dwarf/half-halfling ranger 1
Init +0; Senses alertness +1 (DC 19), see ethereal 5 ft., Darkvision 70'; Perception +5
Languages: Common, Halfling, Elvish, Sign Language

AC: 16, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+0 Dex, +2 insight, +3 armor, +1 size)
+4 Dodge vs Giants, and +1 vs Large or larger
During Surprise Rounds: +1 insight to Initiative, +1 Dodge to AC / Reflex Saves
hp 10 (LW 5/HW 2/Dead -12); Hero Points 1

Fort +2, Ref +2, Int +3, Will +0; +1 racial vs Spells and SLAs
Spd 30 ft.; tunnel runner
Melee: glaive +5 (2d6+5/x3) / (+6 (2d6+6/x3) vs Medium or larger)
Face 5 ft. x 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with glaive)
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 14
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 1st)
1st (DC 9, check +0)— Traveler's Mount
0 (at will, DC 8, check +2)— Create Water, Mage Hand, Gloom

Attributes: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 10
SQ: favored terrain (Underground, +2 competence Athletics, Perception, Stealth, Survival, Initiative, Disable Device, Prof. Mining), improved empathic link, mark of the wild, Bravery (immune shaken and reduce other fear steps by one)
Feats: Alertness*, Canny Defense* (INT), Exotic Weapon Proficiency* (glaive), Imbue Item*, Intimidating Prowess*, Giant Slayer
Skills: Athletics (0/+3), Bluff (1/+4; +7 to demoralize & browbeat), Concentration (1/+4), Craft* (alchemy, needlework) (1/+5), Endurance* (1/+4), Handle Animal* (1/+4), Perception* (1/+5), Planar Sense* (1/+5), Profession (mining) (1/+5), Sleight of Hand (1/+2), Spellcraft (0/+2), Stealth* (1/+9), Streetwise (0/+0), Survival* (1/+5)

Possessions: PC gear (mojo 133; min. 0, par 500): masterwork studded leather armor (125), Glaive (8 GP, using PF cost). Traveling pack and non-magical equipment to follow (bedroll, rope, etc)
Overflow (0; max. 1,500): 500 (Boots of Speed, +10' movement)

Actions: 1 Bonus Move, 1 Partial per Standard, and 1 Immediate Action


Revised Half-Dwarf / Half Halfling:

Small Size, 20' move speed (no Slow and Steady)
Darkvision 60' (bonus trait from Small Size)
+2 STR / CON, -2 CHA (Dwarven Racials)
Arcane Resistance & Skillyman racial feats
Intimidating Prowess & Bravery racial traits

I cannot find the damage dice progression, though I swear I have seen it before; I need to modify the 2d6 damage from Exotic Proficiency downwards for being Small sized.


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Gosclaw Mechanic 2 | SP: 12 / HP: 16 / RP: 3/4 | EAC 14 KAC 15 Resist Fire 5 | INIT +3, F +3 / R +6 / W +0 | P: +5, DV 60', LLV

Krizen eyes look around with a wild glint, if anyone had taken the time to look closely. Just die already!!! He fires another round at the remaining monstrosity.

Attack: 1d20 + 3 - 2 ⇒ (1) + 3 - 2 = 2
Damage: 1d6 ⇒ 3

S.E.T., let me know once you figure out the proper personage to whom material goods should flow...


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Wayward Path is one of the Martial Traditions. You can pick one to replace an existing discipline, similar to Unorthodox Method; but instead of a trait, you get some minor-to-major RP requirements and plot hooks. Wayward Path are basically wandering librarians, but more in the sense of the Clayr Librarians from Garth Nix Abhorsen than your community library.


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... My only IRL group gets together 1-2 times a month to play 5e. If someone is willing to GM, I will happily play in any setting for any campaign. I like the gestalt and mythic high power-high crunch, but really, I just want to play. I've tried to play mostly within core rules in the past, so new chances to explore 3PP or to have less-than-sensical PFS rulings removed are also fun and new experiences.


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Menophotine wrote:
Monster of the Week being the tv-show "format" where the protagonists generally encounter a brand new monster or similar obstacle every week, overcome it, and wrap things up neatly within the span of the episode. Basically, a loosely-connected series of one-shots. Research further on tvtropes if you dare.

Careful! I have been to tvtropes multiple times and lost whole weekends! Make sure to have an emergency escape plan, like using your phone so the battery can run out!


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Firebug wrote:
River of Sticks wrote:
If you want to up the defence vs Intimidate, make all effects that give a bonus to saving throws vs fear effects also apply to Intimidate checks.

But ... you are already supposed to get your bonuses(or penalties) on Fear effects vs Intimidate. Presumably, this means it increases the DC to intimidate you, since the 'attacker' is the one rolling the die. I can see how its commonly missed, since its in FAQ, and not rules text though.

Fear FAQ wrote:

What makes something a fear effect? What about a morale effect?

Fear effects include spells with the fear descriptor, anything explicitly called out as a fear effect, anything that causes the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition, and all uses of the Intimidate skill. Intimidate, in particular, is a mind-affecting fear effect, so fearless and mindless creatures are immune to all uses of Intimidate.

Morale effects, unlike fear effects, so far have not had a descriptor or a call-out. Anything that grants a morale bonus is a morale effect. For example, the rage spell grants a morale bonus, so a creature immune to morale effects would be immune to the entire spell, including the –2 penalty to AC. posted January 2015

Correct. But most effects that give bonuses vs fear explicitly increase your saving throw... Intimidate to demoralize does not involve saving throws. While it is a logical house rule, RAW things like a fighter's bravery do not apply to Intimidate: Demoralize.


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Depending on class, this may also be an option: Ashen Path.


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If you want to up the defence vs Intimidate, make all effects that give a bonus to saving throws vs fear effects also apply to Intimidate checks.


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If you are going to house rule things that way, give the player a 10% non-stacking discount on biological augments. IE, they cannot take a theme or something else and stack discounts, but you are talking about a fluff restriction with mechanical consequences... Adaptive bio chains remove the restriction, at a cost. Remove the cost (the astrozoans ability to change shape makes it uniquely able to assimilate adaptive bio chains, lowering their cost by 10%, etc...) and you have your fluff without mechanical impact.

If you want mechanical impact, I'd have to agree that I don't see the reason for it... but your table is obviously not mine. YMMV..


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Just make sure that if you want a Master ability, you don't choose a familiar with two familiar abilities; you only get two choices total, pulled from either list. A familiar with a burrow speed (if corrected for the Gnome feat) + Scent would mean no master abilities.


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Well... On the plus side I find the playtest to be a good sign for future Starfinder content. It's much easier to concentrate on only one product line, after all! Snark aside, I like ~20% of the changes/material, am ambivalent about ~20%, and actively dislike ~50%. I loathe entirely ~10%. Coming from the PF 1.0 ruleset, I cannot imagine enjoying a game of PF 2.0; if I want something "streamlined" i will play 5E.

I have actually read most of the playtest since yesterday morning, and I am very unimpressed and disappointed. (Skipped the monk, Paladin, and skimmed the spells; read almost everything else word for word).

I will say the animal companion changes are much easier to understand and much more balanced, in general and against each other, if slightly underwhelming.


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I just want to note that I agree with pretty much everything DMW has said. Signature skills are terrible.

My opinion on Resonance is that it needs to go away or be majorly revamped; right now the design expectation seems to be have only 1 buff/spell/potion/power per combat, or have only 1-2 combats per day. Opening a Bag of Holding requires a point of resonance - an out of combat, non-time bound activity. What? If I want to open it, pull something out, and put it away twice a day thats 4 points of resonance, gone. A 1 minute alchemical elixir requires a point of resonance. Casting a spell from a staff requires a point of resonance. I thought the alchemist feat to dabble would be interesting, liked some of the formulae I saw, and then realized they all needed resonance.

Edit: I also think you should be allowed to spend General feats on archetypes.


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Haven't seen this posted yet: d20 has the rules text for non-character elements. The general rules for attacking, movement, environment, etc. ar not on AoN, or at least nowhere I have found before. d20 is far better in laying out that information. AoN is much better for feats, magic items, archetypes, basically anything named.


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Short answer: Level 20 Foresight (Divination) wizard. Treats the initiative d20 as a natural 20, and adds half level to it. Heightened Awareness lasts for 200 minutes at this level; with an Extend rod, that's a first level spell that lasts 6+ hours. I would assume that is always up, even with the no-buffs rule. - minimum of 34 on Initiative, which requires the barbarian to roll a nat 20 to tie. And that's with no other bonuses. First turn - Dimension door 1200 ft away, and then take some time to buff/prep/think as it takes Fluffy 10 rounds to catch up.


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Happy to see the code handled similarly to the Three Laws of Robotics.

Hoping to see (especially for the Paladin, but for PF2 in general as well) more support for intimidation (morale based debuffs) in battle that comes online before 10-15th level, and doesn't require evil classes/feats. Shining glory of righteousness or sheer overwhelming physical prowess can also be intimidating. Intimidation is not solely the realm of evil, debased villains.


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Grandlounge wrote:
My top head slot item for many archers has become animal mask for scent and pheromone arrows. Inquisitors can be a little tight on Swift actions though.

FYI, Inquisitors do get access to Bloodhound (level 2 spell), which is hour/level scent (30'). For the sake of a spell known, or even a Page of spell knowledge (slightly more expensive at 4k vs the 2.7k of the mask) you can get a minimum of 4 hours of scent vs 5 minutes; this does use a spell slot. Runestones of power are not cheap, but 8000 gp at higher levels for 8+ hours of scent, always on (no swift action activation) seems like a good trade.


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Don't think of it that way - the heroes still need gold for their horses feed, their troops, the castle back home, the tenants they support. Artwork, balls, new clothes. Lots of things to spend gold on. They just aren't magical, mechanical (in game terms) improvements to the character that affect their power level. Numen represents that magic is rare (EDIT: Trading magic, not necessarily the existence of it END EDIT) and not commonly available - it's a different currency that the magically elite can use.


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I actually interpreted the 18th level ability to make elixirs/potions as a "The alchemist is totally not magical, but at the height of his abilities he can start to duplicate some of the things the magical types get at 1st level". Not something bad in and of itself, but I'll have to be really impressed by the changes to potions/elixirs to be less than underwhelmed about this - especially as he went from Mutagen+Bombs+6th level "casting" to Bombs+slow mutagen. And with a focusing flask/a bit of time and effort standard mundane characters could get 3-4 times the damage out of alchemists fire... (EDIT: In PF1). Certainly the new alchemist is better at it, but not leaps and bounds better.
I'm also in the camp of mutagen is cool, bombs are meh. Mechanically bombs are awesome, I just don't like them.


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N N 959 wrote:

And that's the rub isn't it? It has nothing to do with you want this class to be part of your backstory, but you want this set of mechanics and there are no more mechanics that are interesting to you. You may not realize this, but that comes off decidedly power-gamish.

I've never multi-classed a character. I play the class, because that's what I want to play. That fact that I may not get something useful for 1 or 2 levels is irrelevant. I'm walking the path of that class.

Just asking for clarification: it seems like you see three ways to role-play in a tabletop.
  • 1: pick a bunch of mechanics and then figure out a character story that fits them
  • 2: make a character concept and then pick the mechanics that fit it
  • 3: pick a character concept and then pick the single class that fits it (or pick two classes with equal levels in them and be worse at the concept than a single classed character)

Am I understanding that right? If I am, it feels very much like you are saying 1 & 2 are badwrongfun for game design, and only #3 should be a part of good game design. I'll agree that 1 is certainly less immersive than the others - though I still enjoy picking a qualitative target like highest damage or fastest speed and figuring out the mechanical "best", but 2 is my personal method of character generation. Unless I am trying to play a character from a book, like Artemis Entreri = Unchained Rogue, or Cadderly = Cleric, #3 just doesn't work for me.

I don't play in your group and you don't play in mine, so this all curiosity and wanting to understand how you see it. No aggression intended.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Snorter wrote:
End the arbitary distinction, between 'weapons' and 'objects', that allows someone to unsheath an oversized, vicious, twisted, spiky, great weapon from a back scabbard on the move, but not slide a smooth wand from a pocket

You already can do that.

FAQs wrote:

Drawing and Sheathing a Weapon-like Object: I know I can draw or sheathe a weapon-like object as a move action using the "Draw or sheathe a weapon" action, but if I have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, can I draw a weapon-like object with a regular move?

Yes. As shown on the chart on page 183, when you have a BAB of +1 or higher, you are combining the regular draw or sheathe a weapon action (to draw a weapon) with a move action. Thus all rules for draw or sheathe a weapon apply, including the ability to draw a weapon-like object.
Core Rulebook wrote:
This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.

I think some of the confusion comes from things like Quick Draw (disallows wands, among other things), and wondrous items like the Scabbard of Many Blades (can hold rods, staves, one handed weapons, two handed weapons, and light weapons, but CANNOT hold wands).


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I find "dipping a level or two in a 2nd class will make your character much more powerful" to be undesirable.

I find "dipping a level or two in another class to customize your character to fit your vision" to be just fine, provided your vision is not "invincible sword princess" or "a person who is powerful".

And what if I DO want my concept to be "invincible sword princess"? Obviously a completely, mechanically invulnerable character makes the game no longer fun, but going for a thematic concept can often involve a level or two of another classes abilities.

What if I DON'T want to be Sherlock Holmes, but DO want to have bursts of insight now and then? A single level in Investigator gets +1d6 to Knowledge, Spellcraft, and Linguistics every time I roll them, with a very limited pool of uses for other skills. It costs a level of advancement in my main class, but there ISN'T a way to get that feature without a dip. There are some magic items that come close, but that depends on DM availability.

Maybe I am reading more into your statements, but it seems very judgmental against anyone who would consider multi-classing for any reason other than background fluff - I'm a wizard, but Daddy was a fighter so I'll take three levels of fighter to be like him!

EDIT: I think the difference for me is that I do NOT believe in Class Identity - there's no reason a Not-Rogue shouldn't have a high Disable Device skill. I believe in Character Identity - what can my character do or not do? I don't care where those abilities come from, or if I archetyped that or dipped this or VMC-ed the other thing. My character is what they can do, not the classes it took to get there.


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In case anyone finds this thread like I did with the same question on Leveraging and Bull Rush, the Impact weapon property adds the weapons enhancement bonus to all bull rush checks. If the weapon was also Leveraging, I believe it would follow that the bonus increases to twice the enhancement of the weapon.


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Thought I would throw this up here for the curious. I put a number of charts into Excel and was able to determine the following:

  • It takes an average of 13.4 encounters to reach the next level
  • For a party of four, individual wealth gain greatly exceeds WBL, to the tune of total wealth gain of 5.8 million credits upon reaching level 20.
  • The amount of total wealth gained at any level is roughly twice the WBL for that level
  • The amount of wealth gained between any two levels is roughly 2.3x the increase in WBL between those two levels
  • Leveling a longarm, small arm, heavy armor, or light armor at every possible level takes ~18% of the difference between WBL and Total Wealth
  • Leveling a longarm, small arm, heavy armor, or light armor at every possible level takes ~30% of the difference between delta WBL and the wealth gained between levels.
  • Assuming a single armor and single weapon, this leaves the remaining 40% of difference (over 500,000 credits from 19-20) for consumables like spell gems, grenades, or Healing Serums.
  • The difference between the 18% and 30% numbers implies an assumption of very high consumable use

There are a few outliers at some odd breakpoints (no level 3 or 8 small arms that I could find, for example), but for the most part the math is very consistent. I am no longer concerned about the costs of upgrading equipment, and am impressed with how many moving bits and pieces still line up to a consistent result.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Why is a question I cannot answer.
It erodes a characters identity if the rebuilds are too easy.

Having previously legal options removed from your character also erodes character identity.

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