I made a similar thread on the reddit awhile ago, but figured I'd get you fine people's opinions too after refining it a bit.
The character idea was to have a sort-of dragon knight themed character. A somewhat well-rounded "hero" type.
Race: Human
Starting Stats: 17(15+2 racial), 12,13,16,10,8 (20 point buy)
Class: Fighter
Archetype: Mutation Warrior
Variant Multiclass: Magus
Build concept:
Uses a Fauchard to attack, Spiked Gauntlet for emergency close range, longbow for long range emergencies.
Heavy Armor for defense.
Flight from Mutagenic Warrior for Dragon Wings.
Arcane Pool enchantments for extra kick, and to save money on enchanting spare weapons. (fancy magic weapon!)
Magus Arcana for familiar. (animal sidekick!)
UMD, utility for self and familiar.
Mutagen for emergency/boss fights. (heroic strength!)
Questions:
Will it be too weak in combat because I'm spreading out the feats/class features so much?
Inversely, I'm not min-maxing too much right? Feels like I'm squeezing in a lot of class features/abilities.
Any suggestions for feats/advanced weapon training in the empty slots?
Any current features that are probably not worth the trouble?
Any features I should try to get earlier or aren't worth it till later?
Any familiars you feel would fit thematically and can use a wand? Currently considering Lyraken Azata, Faerie Dragon, and Mephit.
to my reddit thread if you want to see for some reason.
To be honest, the variant multiclass with magus probably isn't worth it.
For most of the character's life it will have only 1 arcana. The arcane pool to enhance your weapon is okay, but you should really dedicate yourself to one weapon and shouldn't need to spread out enhancement bonuses. Also, see if you can convince your group to use Automatic Bonus Progression. It allows you to swap your enhancement bonus between weapons as a swift action once per day.
And by getting rid of the magus VMC, you can put points more into str/con and reduce int.
Also, by wearing full plate you already have a gauntlet. Now, it isn't spike so slightly less damage but honestly that is a backup plan that hopefully you never need to use. Honestly though, it doesn't make much of a difference either way.
Oh, and if you're really worried about having access to enhancement on your other weapons, I would suggest you have a wizard/cleric or other caster friend just cast greater magic weapon on your backup weapons. Buy them some pearls of power or something and they'll probably be okay with it.
I don't see the feats or advanced weapon training?
A fighter with a dab of dragon magic sounds like a bloodrager with the draconic bloodline to me. 'Heroic' strength works better when you don't have to drink something to make it work, and they get many of the things you mention in-class.
To be honest, the variant multiclass with magus probably isn't worth it.
For most of the character's life it will have only 1 arcana. The arcane pool to enhance your weapon is okay, but you should really dedicate yourself to one weapon and shouldn't need to spread out enhancement bonuses. Also, see if you can convince your group to use Automatic Bonus Progression. It allows you to swap your enhancement bonus between weapons as a swift action once per day.
And by getting rid of the magus VMC, you can put points more into str/con and reduce int.
I play online(with strangers usually), and this character is made for future purposes so I'd rather not have to convince the future GM for both VMC AND ABP.
I picked the magus vmc because it adds Arcane Pool and the Arcana gives me access to stuff that is good mechanically and would have required more investment otherwise. (Magus as a class is good, but not what I want atm) I am also aware of Warrior Spirit, but it's got too few uses per day at low lvls and it's a standard action to activate.I purposely chose to place points in int despite the loss of stre/dex/con. It gives me bonus feats/languages too so it's not really a waste. My build would still work if I didn't put points into int, I'd just need to use the Arcane pool less before the mid lvls. Though I'd need to wait even longer before I can use UMD decently.
Also, by wearing full plate you already have a gauntlet. Now, it isn't spike so slightly less damage but honestly that is a backup plan that hopefully you never need to use. Honestly though, it doesn't make much of a difference either way.
Oh right, I forgot heavy armors come with gauntlets.. Does that mean I can't use a Spiked Gauntlet with heavy armor?
I'd still rather use the spiked version since it doesn't provoke AoOs. I won't need to enchant it with Arcane Pool so it's a free investment anyway.Oh, and if you're really worried about having access to enhancement on your other weapons, I would suggest you have a wizard/cleric or other caster friend just cast greater magic weapon on your backup weapons. Buy them some pearls of power or something and they'll probably be okay with it.
I'm not really worried about access to enhancements, it's just that the Arcane Pool lets me pick up a weapon and make it decent with minimal investment so I feel it's a valid strategy. As for asking party members, while that is a valid point, it also raises the question on if my future party will have members with access to those spells. Even if they do, I'd rather not have to spend even more money to fund them if I can do it myself.
I don't see the feats or advanced weapon training?
A fighter with a dab of dragon magic sounds like a bloodrager with the draconic bloodline to me. 'Heroic' strength works better when you don't have to drink something to make it work, and they get many of the things you mention in-class.
I'm not really fond of the rage classes, and Draconic Bloodline abilities are kinda... lame until lvl12 when you get the wings. I agree that "heroic strength" doesn't quite work with drinking a potion. I honestly just picked up Mutation Warrior just so I could get access to wings at lvl6.
There's an additional column for "Feats" and another column for "Advanced Weapon Training" on the spreadsheet. Unless you mean you didn't see the link to my spreadsheet, in which case it's at the top of the post.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Urgh, I really wish they'd let me edit my post. Or at least delete it so I can start a new one with better formatting.
THE LINK TO THE SPREADSHEET WITH MY BUILD IS AT THE TOP OF THE POST.
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If all you want is Arcane Pool, the Warrior Spirit Advanced Weapon Training option (which can be found a ways down the page here), grants most of the advantages of that for one instance of Advanced Weapon Training (ie: one Feat at 5th level or so), freeing up a whole bunch of Feats, and some stat points. It's not quite as good in some ways (it's a Standard Action to do, for example), but it does let you grab Bane whenever you like right out of the box...
With that change, you do lose Armed Bravery at 5th, but you could drop Int to 14, get Cha 13, and have a few Feats free to pick up Improved Bravery and then Inspiring Bravery to add your Bravery bonus to your allies, which is solid, as choices go, and the Cha is a pretty good idea if dabbling in UMD (and allows for dabbling in other social skills, too...especially workable with Advanced Weapon Training). For a bit of added flavor with Mutation Warrior, you could also grab Courage In A Bottle, and devote yourself to Cayden Cailean and do some really cool stuff (fear immunity for you and +4 to +6 bonuses to all your allies saves vs. mind effecting stuff by 10th level with a Sash of the War Champion is very nice). Which seems very appropriate for a well rounded hero type.
Assuming you want to go that route, of course.
Another obvious option if wanting to go with 'dragon knight' and 'good all-around hero' is to go Bloodrager, possibly with the Draconic Bloodline. But that's a bit far off from your base concept.
If all you want is Arcane Pool, the Warrior Spirit Advanced Weapon Training option (which can be found a ways down the page here), grants most of the advantages of that for one instance of Advanced Weapon Training (ie: one Feat at 5th level or so), freeing up a whole bunch of Feats, and some stat points. It's not quite as good in some ways (it's a Standard Action to do, for example), but it does let you grab Bane whenever you like right out of the box...
With that change, you do lose Armed Bravery at 5th, but you could drop Int to 14, get Cha 13, and have a few Feats free to pick up Improved Bravery and then Inspiring Bravery to add your Bravery bonus to your allies, which is solid, as choices go, and the Cha is a pretty good idea if dabbling in UMD (and allows for dabbling in other social skills, too...especially workable with Advanced Weapon Training). For a bit of added flavor with Mutation Warrior, you could also grab Courage In A Bottle, and devote yourself to Cayden Cailean and do some really cool stuff (fear immunity for you and +4 to +6 bonuses to all your allies saves vs. mind effecting stuff by 10th level with a Sash of the War Champion is very nice). Which seems very appropriate for a well rounded hero type.
Assuming you want to go that route, of course.
Another obvious option if wanting to go with 'dragon knight' and 'good all-around hero' is to go Bloodrager, possibly with the Draconic Bloodline. But that's a bit far off from your base concept.
I don't have the highest opinion of Warrior Spirit. Standard action activation, far too few uses per day, and it shares limited slots with the other Advanced Weapon Trainings. It's been recommended to me from my old thread and I still say no. Plus I think you can only choose 1 weapon ability for it per use.(i think?)
Inspiring Bravery seems situational, it only applies to fear effects right?
I used a trait to get int to UMD, a human alt trait to get UMD as a class skill, and Skill Focus(UMD) so UMD shouldn't be a problem and actually makes me less MAD if I wanna invest into it.
That courage in a bottle item sounds friggin awesome though!
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I don't have the highest opinion of Warrior Spirit. Standard action activation, far too few uses per day, and it shares limited slots with the other Advanced Weapon Trainings. It's been recommended to me from my old thread and I still say no. Plus I think you can only choose 1 weapon ability for it per use.(i think?)
True, but you get the rest in Enhancement bonus, and you don't need to wait until really high levels (and invest Arcana) to get things like Holy or Bane (both of which are doable real early with Warrior Spirit, and phenomenally good).
I think the two are around even. Especially with Gloves of Dueling (which you should have by 10th or so), which give two extra uses of Warrior Spirit, but if you don't like it, not taking it is certainly a valid option.
Inspiring Bravery seems situational, it only applies to fear effects right?
By default, yeah. Which is why I recommend combining it with Improved Bravery to give everyone a bonus against all mind-effecting stuff. It's probably not worth it if you go the Armed Bravery route instead.
I used a trait to get int to UMD, a human alt trait to get UMD as a class skill, and Skill Focus(UMD) so UMD shouldn't be a problem and actually makes me less MAD if I wanna invest into it.
Sure, all that works, Cha 13 is a prerequisite for all the Bravery stuff I recommended (except Courage In A Bottle), and would allow you to reassign some of those resources to other stuff.
That courage in a bottle item sounds friggin awesome though!
Courage In A Bottle is an excellent Feat. :)
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With that change, you do lose Armed Bravery at 5th, but you could drop Int to 14, get Cha 13, and have a few Feats free to pick up Improved Bravery and then Inspiring Bravery to add your Bravery bonus to your allies, which is solid, as choices go, and the Cha is a pretty good idea if dabbling in UMD (and allows for dabbling in other social skills, too...especially workable with Advanced Weapon Training). For a bit of added flavor with Mutation Warrior, you could also grab Courage In A Bottle, and devote yourself to Cayden Cailean and do some really cool stuff (fear immunity for you and +4 to +6 bonuses to all your allies saves vs. mind effecting stuff by 10th level with a Sash of the War Champion is very nice). Which seems very appropriate for a well rounded hero type.
So the 3 feats together grant immunity to mind effects for you and your party (within 30 ft.) when you get the bravery bonus up to +6 ? Correct?
Eldritch guardian stacks with mutation warrior... that gets you off to a slower start in some ways (since you lose your first two bonus feats) but your familiar will be more powerful, plus it makes UMD a class skill (which lets you take pragmatic activator instead of dangerously curious for one of your traits) and frees up your arcana.
Eldritch guardian stacks with mutation warrior... that gets you off to a slower start in some ways (since you lose your first two bonus feats) but your familiar will be more powerful, plus it makes UMD a class skill (which lets you take pragmatic activator instead of dangerously curious for one of your traits) and frees up your arcana.
The familiar wouldn't really be that more powerful since I barely have any combat feats that would take advantage of it gaining my combat feats. Maybe if I was going for a mauler archetype familiar.
I already picked up UMD as a class skill with the Fey Magic Human alternate racial trait, and have pragmatic activator. These are written at the lower part of the spreadsheet.
I would go with the Dragonheir Scion fighter archetype. The flight is delayed and gets less feats but there are some nice abilities, especially the arcane strike which would allow extra damage without the arcane pool. If you are concerned with flight, you can get the Animal Totem Tattoo with the dragon totem. It would give you 5 min of flight a day.
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So the 3 feats together grant immunity to mind effects for you and your party (within 30 ft.) when you get the bravery bonus up to +6 ? Correct?
No. Courage In A Bottle is very specific in granting fear immunity, it has no provision for granting immunity to mind effecting stuff.
It's even pretty debatable whether it even gives the party immunity to fear (I'd say likely not).
But it does give you personally immunity to fear and the whole party (within 30 ft.), including yourself, +6 on all saves vs. mind effecting stuff (and fear, for people who aren't you).
I definitely wouldn't say it is too min-maxd. Too well rounded, probably not. But really any martial type with a big weapon and power attack will usually do at least halfway decent.
I would be at least slightly worried about the low will save.
Other than that it really depends upon the campaign, GM, and party.
Some GM's really hate VMC. Not sure why they think it is too powerful. Most people think it is crazy weak and gimps your character. But fighter gets so many bonus feats, that isn't quite so painful. But make sure your GM is ok with it.
Usefulness of wings at 7th? Meh. Don't get me wrong, I like them and use them if I've got them. But if I don't, I usually just have a potion of fly for emergencies. But if you are in a campaign where replacing potions is difficult, then the wings do seem better.
The arcane pool for the enchantment of the various weapons. I get the idea and it isn't bad. But how often do situations where you need an enhancement bonus on you backup weapons actually come up? Depends on the campaign.
I don't remember the stats of the fauchard to know if it is really worth a feat. But personally I rarely think EWP is worth while. But yes, I sometimes take it anyway.
Improved familiar at 9th level? Again it depends, will the GM target the fragile familiar when he buffs you with a wand in combat? Does the party not have anyone sneaky to scout? Is there no caster that cast buff spells on anyone else? The answers to those questions make a difference.
I would go with the Dragonheir Scion fighter archetype. The flight is delayed and gets less feats but there are some nice abilities, especially the arcane strike which would allow extra damage without the arcane pool. If you are concerned with flight, you can get the Animal Totem Tattoo with the dragon totem. It would give you 5 min of flight a day.
How good is that archetype? It does give me some stuff I want but the wings come in so late and it replaces Bravery.
I definitely wouldn't say it is too min-maxd. Too well rounded, probably not. But really any martial type with a big weapon and power attack will usually do at least halfway decent.
I would be at least slightly worried about the low will save.
Other than that it really depends upon the campaign, GM, and party.
Some GM's really hate VMC. Not sure why they think it is too powerful. Most people think it is crazy weak and gimps your character. But fighter gets so many bonus feats, that isn't quite so painful. But make sure your GM is ok with it.
Usefulness of wings at 7th? Meh. Don't get me wrong, I like them and use them if I've got them. But if I don't, I usually just have a potion of fly for emergencies. But if you are in a campaign where replacing potions is difficult, then the wings do seem better.
The arcane pool for the enchantment of the various weapons. I get the idea and it isn't bad. But how often do situations where you need an enhancement bonus on you backup weapons actually come up? Depends on the campaign.
I don't remember the stats of the fauchard to know if it is really worth a feat. But personally I rarely think EWP is worth while. But yes, I sometimes take it anyway.
Improved familiar at 9th level? Again it depends, will the GM target the fragile familiar when he buffs you with a wand in combat? Does the party not have anyone sneaky to scout? Is there no caster that cast buff spells on anyone else? The answers to those questions make a difference.
I was hoping the low will save would be covered by Armed Bravery, which converts the bonus from Bravery into a direct will bonus.
I will prob only use this build with a gm that okays it, of course.
I'm not that sure if wings are that useful at lvl7 tbh, but I thought it would be great for covering the weak movement speed. It does save costs for potions though.
The fauchard is the only reach weapon that has a 1d10 damage die and 18-20 crit range. Arcane pool can enchant keen, so that's a 15-20 crit range.
I will probably modify the build further when I use it in a group, but is good as it is now?