An extremely general guide to making viable characters.


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Le Petite Mort wrote:
Whatever low attack is meant to correspond to on the chart, it does admirably at matching the survivability benchmarks I've set up (beyond level 5, at least). I've tested CR=LVL monsters at a few different levels now against my minimum green, orange, and blue benchmarks, and they tend to fall in line with how many rounds I'd expect a character to survive full attacks.

"High Attack: This value is for creatures that are primarily melee or ranged combatants.

Low Attack: This is the average total attack bonus for a creature of this CR that does not rely upon melee or ranged attacks to deal damage. This includes most creatures that rely on spells and spell-like abilities in combat."

I changed the AC to +15 and the monster attack roll values to low attack. I could make two entries for player AC, as I did for DCs, if you like.

@Saldiven : Basically, you should include at least Bane. You can evaluate your char both with and without buffs to see how it measures up - normally, the buffed value is more important (depends on your campaign - if you run into ambushes all the time, the unbuffed values are of greater importance, but more often than not, you can prepare for fights against higher CR enemies, or buffs are still active from the last fight). Likewise for flanking.
I get 100.2 EDV fully buffed and flanking, but I might have missed something in my half-asleep state.

Grand Lodge

Derklord wrote:


"High Attack: This value is for creatures that are primarily melee or ranged combatants.
Low Attack: This is the average total attack bonus for a creature of this CR that does not rely upon melee or ranged attacks to deal damage. This includes most creatures that rely on spells and spell-like abilities in combat."

I changed the AC to +15 and the monster attack roll values to low attack. I could make two entries for player AC, as I did for DCs, if you like.

Regardless, they seem to work for my benchmarking purposes.


This is a really interesting approach, and I like it a lot. I am having a few issues with the numbers not adding up in some of your examples.

Quote:

Muffins’ base attack bonus is +5, and he gets an additional +1 to attack rolls from Fighter Weapon Training for a total of +6. He will be using STR to damage, and will therefore have a 19 STR at this level (10 points spent in point-buy, +2 racial bonus, +1 at level 4) which raises him to +10 to hit. I will buy him a +1 Greatsword, take Weapon Focus (Greatsword), and a +2 strength belt to reach a +13 attack roll. He now has 1,000 gp remaining, 8 points for stat-buy, a trait, and five feats remaining.

At this point I will already have parts of my damage factored. The average base damage of a Greatsword is 7, Muffins’ 21 STR after buying my belt grants another 7 damage (5*1.5 for two-handed weapons, rounded down), the +1 enhancement is there, and Fighter Weapon Training adds another 1 damage. This is roughly 16 total average damage, which becomes 17.3 once we add our chance for a confirmed critical hit. However, Muffins will miss the average monster on a roll of 1-4, meaning my expected damage value is only 13.82 (17.3 * 80% chance of success against AC 18).

You have a total attack bonus of +13 against an AC of 18. That produces an 80% chance of hitting. You also have an average damage, K, of 16 hp. A greatsword has a 10% chance of threatening and a critical multiplier of 2. But when I plug these into your formulas, I keep getting 14.08 rather than the 13.82 that you got.

EDV = (16 * .7) + (16 * (0.2*0.1)) + (16 * 2 * (0.8 * 0.1)) = 14.08

I'm having a similar problem with the next example.

Quote:
Now Muffins just has five feats remaining. Power attack is an obvious choice. While it puts Muffins attack roll to the bottom of the green benchmark, the +6 damage increases his EDV to 16.48.

Power attack impose an attack penalty of -2, resulting in a 70% chance to hit. It will also increase the damage from 16 to 22. Plugging these new numbers in, I get 16.94 rather than the 16.48 that you got.

EDV = (22 * .6) + (22 * (0.3*0.1)) + (22 * 2 * (0.7 * 0.1)) = 16.94

I got the same values as you did (rounded off) for the earlier examples so I'm not sure what I'm missing on these.

Sczarni

Your EDV is as thought you had a x3 multiplier on your greatsword.

Scarab Sages

Gisher wrote:
This is a really interesting approach, and I like it a lot. I am having a few issues with the numbers not adding up in some of your examples.

D'oh! I had done the EDV calculations, and then changed some character things around without altering the final EDV results. About to fix.


Sorry to necro this thread. (is it necro-ing if it's a few months old?)
But I made this EDV calculator and I wanted to check if the math is correct(or very very wrong). Anyone willing to give it a few tests?

It should work if you just copy it onto your own google sheets.

LINK


Weapon damage shouldn't be grey, as it's calculated from the min and max damage.
Your weapon damage doesn't factor in dice. 1d12 average is 6.5 while 2d6 averages to 7.
You should include a section for crit hit bonus, if I have a +4 to confirm a crit I can't enter that anywhere.
Level doesn't seem to be doing anything, is this supposed to lookup and auto populate the AC?
The yes/no should be a selector of options yes or no.
Your crit chance is off, it should be lower because it needs to factor in the crit confirming.
Your EDV doesn't seem to use the crit multiplier but has hardcoded 2

EDV should be D(H) +C*H(D*crit multiplier) so I'm not sure why you're doing D(H-C)+D*C*(H-C)

Your hit chance is off, remember meets it beats it, so you need to add 21 instead of 20, same for your crit chance, a 15 is 30% so it also needs to be 21 instead of 20 - crit range.
You don't account for not critting damage like sneak attack or precise strike.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Weapon damage shouldn't be grey, as it's calculated from the min and max damage.

Your weapon damage doesn't factor in dice. 1d12 average is 6.5 while 2d6 averages to 7.
You should include a section for crit hit bonus, if I have a +4 to confirm a crit I can't enter that anywhere.
Level doesn't seem to be doing anything, is this supposed to lookup and auto populate the AC?
The yes/no should be a selector of options yes or no.
Your crit chance is off, it should be lower because it needs to factor in the crit confirming.
Your EDV doesn't seem to use the crit multiplier but has hardcoded 2

EDV should be D(H) +C*H(D*crit multiplier) so I'm not sure why you're doing D(H-C)+D*C*(H-C)

Your hit chance is off, remember meets it beats it, so you need to add 21 instead of 20, same for your crit chance, a 15 is 30% so it also needs to be 21 instead of 20 - crit range.
You don't account for not critting damage like sneak attack or precise strike.

Agh, so many mistakes. I'll get to work on it now!

EDIT: On a seperate sheet, because it'll prob take awhile to fix some of those. ><


Chess Pwn wrote:
**HELPFUL STUFF**

I've changed it to Dice number and Damage Dice. The original was meant to be Min roll and Maximum roll (so 2d6 would be 2 and 12), but that wasn't clarified so I hope this is better.

Added a section for crit, but not added to EDV cause my math's not great and it'll take me a bit more to edit the EDV formulae.

Level was supposed to look up the AC on a list, but I dropped that and forgot to remove it. It's gone now.

I'm not sure what you mean about the yes/no part. I'm not very familiar with google sheets. Can you explain it a bit?

I'm also not sure how to add non-crit damage. I'll add that in later, after I math it out, unless someone can recommend a way for me to add it?


Just have an input for non-crit damage. Add that to the damage per hit section. And then in the crit formula just look at the crittable damage.

link to how to make a selectable drop down in google sheets. Make it a list of just Yes or no for the criteria.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Just have an input for non-crit damage. Add that to the damage per hit section. And then in the crit formula just look at the crittable damage.

link to how to make a selectable drop down in google sheets. Make it a list of just Yes or no for the criteria.

Oh, my sheet actually has the drop down sheet, I guess it doesn't get copied over when you copy/paste it. I'll try changing it to a format that can be copy/pasted.


You do know that spreadsheets can extract the average damage out of something like "2d6", right? That's what I'm using for the the DPR calculater attatched to my character sheet.

=LEFT(E2;FIND("d";E2)-1)*(RIGHT(E2;LEN(E2)-FIND("d";E2))+1)/2 if I translated that correctly


Ok, the issues Chess Pwn mentioned should be fixed. Going to sleep now, but I try to fix any more issues tomorrow(if there's any).


Derklord wrote:

You do know that spreadsheets can extract the average damage out of something like "2d6", right? That's what I'm using for the the DPR calculater attatched to my character sheet.

=LEFT(E2;FIND("d";E2)-1)*(RIGHT(E2;LEN(E2)-FIND("d";E2))+1)/2 if I translated that correctly

Oops, didn't see this. Will add it in real quick! Thank you!


Question about EDV. Do the EDV numbers for higher levels include iterative attacks or just for a single attack?
I always thought it was just for single attacks, but someone said it was for all the attacks in a Full Attack averaged out(like [attack 1 + attack 2]/2) instead and I just wanted to be sure.

Grand Lodge

RandomReverie wrote:

Question about EDV. Do the EDV numbers for higher levels include iterative attacks or just for a single attack?

I always thought it was just for single attacks, but someone said it was for all the attacks in a Full Attack averaged out(like [attack 1 + attack 2]/2) instead and I just wanted to be sure.

I typically benchmark with full attacks, but it isn't a bad idea to do both if you have options like Hurtful or Vital Strike that can improve your damage without using a full-attack action.

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