I know Halloween is over, but it's time for everyone's 'favorite' nightmare..... RATE / CRITICIZE MY HOMEBREW CLASS: The Warden(might need a better name)


Homebrew and House Rules


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Link to the Warden

Purpose/Goal/What I want out of the class:
-To create a martial that is good with all weapons(not just one or two, or a few groups like fighter)
-To create a class that can pick up any weapon at any time and be able to use it immediately.

What it is not intended to do:
-Out-damage a class that specializes in 1 or a few types of weaponry, like fighter/barbarian.
-Out-flex a super flexible martial class, like the Brawler.
-Be so inferior at damage and flexibility that it's worse than a class that is good at one.

Notes/Comments on class features:
Base stats:
Full bab progression should be expected of a full martial class.
Fortitude saves are important for all frontline fighters.
Class skills hold most of the important but not out of skills for any martial fighter. I know fighters normally get 2 + int, but I feel that is far too low for ANY class, so I've set it at 4 + int.

Weapon/Armor Proficiency:
They are masters of every weapon, so I feel that should naturally include exotic weapons as well. Exotic proficiency is given at lvl5 instead of 1 to prevent it being a "dip to get free proficiency issue. Light armor to make it less defensive than a fighter, but I am considering adding medium armor since they get no other defensive skills.

Spirit Pool:
The main purpose of this ability was to hopefully solve the issue of having to enchant too many weapons as I intended the class to be able to pick up any weapon and be able to use it right away. It also gives the class some extra flexibility in terms of weapon bonuses and such. Before you go: "Omg, he gets up to a +10 enhancement bonus, SO OP". The spirit pool's enchantment do not stack with a normal magic weapon's enchantments, it replaces it. So comparing it with any martial who keeps their weapon up to date, its enchantment bonus is about on par with their's. In addition, they get no other bonuses to attack and damage rolls like fighter training or barbarian rage. Also I feel it pushes the element of 'Weapons Master" rather than most martial's version of "my whole body is my weapon".

Crippling Under-specialization:
The ability had 2 purposes: To prevent ppl playing the class to take feats and specialize in specific weapons, and to reduce the chance of it being a "dip some levels for free abilities so I can munchkin super easy". I am also considering blocking feats that benefit only specific weapon groups instead of just feats that benefit single weapon types, but that might be too much.

Weapon Master:
This gives 1 feat per weapon category at lvl2, 6, 10, 14, 18. That's a total of 12 feats 5 times, which essentially amounts to 60 feats. HOWEVER, they only get access to 5 of those feats at a time at lvl18. What feat they get access to depends on the weapon they carry. It's a bit like a combination of ranger combat styles and brawler flexibility. The feats that each weapon group has access to is supposed to be based on common feats that users of that weapon would take, like power attack for 2-handed weapons and TWF for light weapons. Unfortunately there's a lot of feats so I'm still sorting through a lot of them.

Spiritual Strengthening:
Allows you to add magic weapon properties with spirit pool just like the Magus's Arcane Pool. They get a MUCH wider variety of them though. There are a few that are almost never really worth it to permanently enchant your weapon with one because they're very specific, and I thought that adding them would give them a good chance to shine. At lvl 4, it's mostly +1 enchantments, but they get access to +2-3 later on.

Exotic Weapon proficiency:
Proficiency with all exotic weapons at a price of -1 to attack rolls. This comes in late enough that it should hopefully prevent dipping just for this alone.

Skilled Weapon Master:
Stronger feats to choose from, this is seperated to prevent lvl2s getting high lvl stuff, and they can still select older ones as well.
Improvised Weapon Proficiency Less penalties when using improvised weapons, but can't access weapon master class feature feats with them. Also penalty for using exotic weapons is gone.

Stronger Spirit:
More weapon properties to choose from, at a price. Works like magus arcana that give more arcane pool choice. Pay one more point to access a larger variety.

Experienced Weapon Master:
Same as Skilled Weapon master.

Flexible Strengthening:
This allows you to change ongoing spirit pool enchants for free, BUT the duration of the ability doesn't reset, and you must still pay for access to stronger weapon enchantments.

Strongest Spirit:
Same as Stronger Spirit.

Perfect Weapon Master:
I tried not to make this as strong in the same way that a fighter's would be, but I think an increase to crit threat range/multiplier ain't too bad.

Further Thoughts/Notes/Considerations:
-A martial with both weak armor, low reflex, and low will seems... suicidal. I was considering maybe giving a bonus to certain weapon groups or maybe just bump up the class's Will saves? Yes/no/suggestions?
-For a martial, would the attack/damage of the class be too low to make the class useless compared to most other martials? It doesn't need to be top tier, just decent enough to not be like "no point bringing him"
-I worry weapon master is too restrictive per weapon group. My previous idea was to have the Warden pick the feats per weapon group daily instead. Is that TOO flexible/op?
-I need a LOT of help for the feat selection for weapon master. I'm trying not to let the different weapon feats overlap too much and give them distinctive flavor. Maybe i should combine some of the groups instead?
-Would a bonus for sunder/disarm maneuvers be fitting for a guy who knows weapons inside and out?
-In a follow up to previous note, would it be good to let them replenish spirit pool points if they manage to sunder/disarm an enemy?
-I'm not sure if the class theme feels.... complete? It feels more like a combo of 2-3 class features and everything else builds on that.
-I am VERY worried that the wording for class features is either not clear enough or too convoluted/wordy. If there's any issue with this, it's the first thing that must be fixed. Tell me immediately.
-Warden doesn't really fit the theme of the class. Suggestions for names? I was thinking Ace might be fitting since it's kinda arrogant to call yourself an ace, which fits a class that claims to be a master of all weapons.

SO, thoughts/criticism/suggestions/feedback from you guys? Feel free to tell me it's completely s+$$/OP/UP, but please also explain why. And if possible, say which parts(or combination of parts) are s**~/OP/UP. Sorry for double wall of texts. Thanks and I look forward to your replies.

P.S. Hope this is the right section.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

It honestly doesn't sound all that interesting of a class. It doesn't really have any unique game mechanics to keep it afloat. It basically feels like a bland fighter that gets more bonus feats and the magus's arcane pool. The concept of a weapon master is intriguing enough for many possibilities.

I think giving them proficiency in all weapons and tons of feats at the cost of a penalty to everything and restricting choices is not a good approach. I think a better approach would involve creating a class feature that has "floating feats" that you can swap with the restriction that they must list "Weapon Focus" as a prerequisite. Something like the inquisitor's teamwork feats except the warden can swap all of the bonus feats rather than just the last one.

For exotic weapons, I think a more fun idea is having a class feature that works like the brawler's martial flexibility except it only lets you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Unarmed Strike, Throw Anything, and Catch Off-Guard.

I also have issue with the Spirit Pool class feature. Spirit pool should either work like the magus's arcane pool or work like the magic weapon spell. As is, it's really clunky, overpowered, and takes the fun out of buying magical weapons.


Cyrad wrote:
It honestly doesn't sound all that interesting of a class. It doesn't really have any unique game mechanics to keep it afloat. It basically feels like a bland fighter that gets more bonus feats and the magus's arcane pool. The concept of a weapon master is intriguing enough for many possibilities.

Yeah.. I was afraid of this, the more I looked at it, the more it seemed... weak as a concept.

Cyrad wrote:
I think giving them proficiency in all weapons and tons of feats at the cost of a penalty to everything and restricting choices is not a good approach. I think a better approach would involve creating a class feature that has "floating feats" that you can swap with the restriction that they must list "Weapon Focus" as a prerequisite. Something like the inquisitor's teamwork feats except the warden can swap all of the bonus feats rather than just the last one.

I had not considered the inquisitor's teamwork feats approach. I never played the class, but it does seem like it'd fit what I'm trying to do.

Cyrad wrote:
For exotic weapons, I think a more fun idea is having a class feature that works like the brawler's martial flexibility except it only lets you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Unarmed Strike, Throw Anything, and Catch Off-Guard.

Ooh, that's a good idea. I will def think about this a bit more.

Cyrad wrote:
I also have issue with the Spirit Pool class feature. Spirit pool should either work like the magus's arcane pool or work like the magic weapon spell. As is, it's really clunky, overpowered, and takes the fun out of buying magical weapons.

The spirit pool thing is ...yeah... It originally worked like a magus pool, but if weapon enchantments stacked with the pool, it'd be too strong at low-mid lvls. If I weaken the pool to +5 like the arcane pool, then it doesn't solve the issue that the warden would have to have multiple enchanted weapons to be decent at many of them.

The spirit pool was originally made to balance out the fact that most pure martial classes get innate class bonuses to att/dmg rolls like a fighter's weapon training. Swashbucklers get swashbuckler weapon training, warpriests get swift action buffs, magus can burst like crazy with spellstrike/combat, and barbarian's rage gives nice fat bonuses to str.

I included a wider selection of weapon abilities than the arcane pool because magus gets spells to do damage whereas the Warden just attacks with fancy weapons. The warden also has to pay for anything beyond basic weaker enchantments too. You pay an extra point to access good +2 enchantments like bane, and another extra point for the nice +3/4. and you get 1 point per lvl to your spirit pool(+charisma mod) with no way to regain them other than when it refreshes daily. Using the feat to gain more pool points pays the feat cost which other classes wouldn't have.

They do save quite a bit of money by not paying for weapons, but casters don't really pay for weapons either(i'm not trying to compare this to anything like a caster, just giving an example where there are classes that also pay a bit less for their special stuff). They might be able to afford much better armor, but start off with weaker armor selection and have no base armor bonuses.

Dark Archive

I dont want to be mean. It seems like the magus has anything you could want from this class. The mechanics for profiencies are weird and a two weapon figthing one is hosed. Figthers can already pick up any weapon and use it. I am not sure what role this class has. It seems like the magus or a figther fits into its niche.


Looks like you still have a lot of work to do. The concept is "he's great with weapons", which seems to make it a narrow focus version of a fighter. The concept could use some refining. Your thread title mentions "nightmare", the name warden implies that it is protecting something, and every class feature has to do with improving weapons. The fighter's name is at last accurate: he has armor training, bravery, and the freedom to customize his arsenal with any feat he qualifies for. Keep on working on this. Broaden the concept, add something new, and don't be afraid to ditch things that don't work.

SKILLS
I can usually look at a skill list and sense a theme, but not with this one. It feels fragmented.

PROFICIENCIES
What you give is fine, but try to get the wording closer to the that of existing classes. Once you have told the reader that the class gets light armor, there is no use in saying what armors it doesn't get. Its fine to make mention that using a shield interferes with their class abilities, but if the you should at least give it its own sentence, separated by a period.

SPIRIT POOL
He gets nearly twice as many points as a magus, only one thing to spend the points on, and the enhancement bonus gets up to +10. Like Cyrad said, you should model this more closely on the magus' arcane pool. Your version makes is so the character can absolutely ignore investing in a magic weapon. A magus will want a good magic weapon so that he can get his smaller bonus to count for something. Also, how many times a day do you expect he'll need to enchant his weapons? Being able to use the ability as a swift action at a certain point is good, but I'm not seeing a purpose for the free action. Will he be using his swift action for other abilities at that point? I'm not a fan of the "spirit" name.

CRIPPLING UNDER-SPECIALIZATION
Just scrap this. Instead of preventing a weapon master from taking feats to master the use of weapons, implement a class feature that gives him incentive to not take these feats. Rather than only being able to spend points in order to gain huge enhancement bonuses, maybe he can also spend some points to temporarily gain weapon specific feats.

WEAPON MASTER
Too much work for a 2nd level character to choose a dozen feats and then to only be able to use one or two of them. Plus, if he's good with any and all weapons, it seems contrary ot the concept that a feat can only be used with certain weapons. My instinct says you should scrap this current ability and come up with something new. Something simpler, that perhaps grows into something bigger.

SPIRITUAL STRENGTHENING
If spirit pool were made to be in line with the magus' arcane pool, this could simply be rolled into that class feature. However, it isn't wrong to keep it as a separate class feature. A player with a 1st level character doesn't necessarily need to know about 20 different weapon enhancement he won't be able to use until higher level.

EXOTIC WEAPON PROF
I don't like it. Maybe if you granted a free feat every 2 or 3 or 4 levels that would be fine. As is, he wakes up one morning and knows how to use every weapon ever made. Alternately, maybe at 3rd or 5th level his penalty for non-proficiency starts to decrease.


Halek wrote:
I dont want to be mean. It seems like the magus has anything you could want from this class. The mechanics for profiencies are weird and a two weapon figthing one is hosed. Figthers can already pick up any weapon and use it. I am not sure what role this class has. It seems like the magus or a figther fits into its niche.

Almost no one does though. Fighters get bonuses for a few weapon groups, then continue to take feats that enhance a small selection of weapons. They pick up two-handed weapons then power attack away, then take like weapon focus/spec. or maybe Two-weapon fighting and maybe weapon finesse. Or a reach weapons and take feats to take advantage of the reach and AoOs and trip. Each fighting style always has the advantage when you specialize, then aren't as fantastic with the other styles because half your feats aren't as fantastic with it.

Most magus pick like the scimitar and have to stick with it, or maybe whip for the range. They can have other options, but the more common strategies are those.
Making most weapons non-two-handed weapons work takes enough feats that you pretty much specialize or are kinda meh at it.

A warden who wants to do TWF can carry an actual enchanted weapon, they will have to spend more than a non-TWF warden, but that's still better than other classes who have to get 2 enchanted. Only light blade and double weapons usually TWF, so it's still doesn't break flexibility TOO much.

I will admit that I probably coulda just made a fighter archetype for this concept, but I wanted to make a new class. Plus I'm not sure how to solve the "have to enchant many weapons to use them all" issue.

Every class can pick up any weapon and "use it", but can they be good with several at once? (only one I can think of is Slayer actually, nd that's usually no more than 2/3 weapon types)


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Looks like you still have a lot of work to do. The concept is "he's great with weapons", which seems to make it a narrow focus version of a fighter. The concept could use some refining. Your thread title mentions "nightmare", the name warden implies that it is protecting something, and every class feature has to do with improving weapons. The fighter's name is at last accurate: he has armor training, bravery, and the freedom to customize his arsenal with any feat he qualifies for. Keep on working on this. Broaden the concept, add something new, and don't be afraid to ditch things that don't work.

Erm, I guess I didn't name the thread well, the nightmare part had nothing to do with the actual class just that on the reddit whenever ppl post homebrew classes, ppl usually seem like "sigh, another op/up/weird class ppl try to make work and fail to". And I have mentioned in the notes that Warden doesn't fit the class concept, I'm not fantastic with names. I do agree the concept needs to be broadened though.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

SKILLS

I can usually look at a skill list and sense a theme, but not with this one. It feels fragmented.

Agreed, will work on it.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

PROFICIENCIES

What you give is fine, but try to get the wording closer to the that of existing classes. Once you have told the reader that the class gets light armor, there is no use in saying what armors it doesn't get. Its fine to make mention that using a shield interferes with their class abilities, but if the you should at least give it its own sentence, separated by a period.

I coulda sworn there was a class that specifically said"proficient in light armor, but not medium or heavy armor", but my apologies. I have made the adjustments.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

SPIRIT POOL

He gets nearly twice as many points as a magus, only one thing to spend the points on, and the enhancement bonus gets up to +10. Like Cyrad said, you should model this more closely on the magus' arcane pool. Your version makes is so the character can absolutely ignore investing in a magic weapon. A magus will want a good magic weapon so that he can get his smaller bonus to count for something. Also, how many times a day do you expect he'll need to enchant his weapons? Being able to use the ability as a swift action at a certain point is good, but I'm not seeing a purpose for the free action. Will he be using his swift action for other abilities at that point? I'm not a fan of the "spirit" name.

I replied to Cyrad on my reasoning for this. I have also mentioned that it was originally a lot more like the Arcane Pool and why it was slowly taken away from that direction. I expect him to need to enchant quite a few times since each enchantment lasts 1 min. And I'm hoping he will spend the extra Spirit Pool points to get the good enchantments as well.

I do agree on the free action part, perhaps I shall just remove it.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

CRIPPLING UNDER-SPECIALIZATION

Just scrap this. Instead of preventing a weapon master from taking feats to master the use of weapons, implement a class feature that gives him incentive to not take these feats. Rather...

I implemented this feature to prevent people taking a dip into the class for free goodies. The point of it was to prevent them from specializing, they still have access to feats that affect entire groups of weapons, just not specific ones. I do agree it's... troublesome though, maybe there's another way to go around this.


Lets say that at 1st level, he can enchant a weapon two or three times a day. Thats enough for a normal number of combats per day, and combats do not often last more than a minute. By 8th level, he can do it probably ten times per day, or five times adding a special property. At a certain point, he doesn't need more points because he's not in that many combats. Since he has enough points to enchant his weapon in every combat and there is nothing else to spend points on, there is little or no need to be economical with the points. You might as well ditch the points and just say that he spends an action to make his weapon magic. Or, decrease the points. Or, add additional ways to spend points.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Lets say that at 1st level, he can enchant a weapon two or three times a day. Thats enough for a normal number of combats per day, and combats do not often last more than a minute. By 8th level, he can do it probably ten times per day, or five times adding a special property. At a certain point, he doesn't need more points because he's not in that many combats. Since he has enough points to enchant his weapon in every combat and there is nothing else to spend points on, there is little or no need to be economical with the points. You might as well ditch the points and just say that he spends an action to make his weapon magic. Or, decrease the points. Or, add additional ways to spend points.

I apologize, I misunderstood the "He gets nearly twice as many points as a magus" part and thought you meant the enhancement bonuses, but I'll elaborate more.

I usually expect 3-5 combat scenarios a day(based on my limited experience with RotRL, CotCT, and WotR), and I expected him to have to enchant multiple weapons per combat around mid-levels to be able to handle multiple kinds of scenarios with usage of different weapons. Every weapon should have a different style, and I intended for them to change weapons to suit the scenario, much like a brawler would change feats to suit scenario.
At lvls 1-4, he can enchant 3-7 times a day, enough for 1 weapon per combat, but it doesn't heavily penalize him to fight with a normal weapon yet. At lvl8+ onwards, he'll start enchanting with stronger weapon abilities and he'll need to pay more to access the stronger abilities. So the higher pool was to compensate for the fact that he enchants 1-3 times per combat, and spends 2-3 points per enchantment in combat at mid-higher lvls. 1 point per lvl might be too much though, maybe try 3/4 per lvl? That wording sounds a bit too weird though. Half level like magus feels a bit too low considering plenty of Magus arcana don't cost arcane pool points and Magus isn't as bad screwed over when they run out. If the Warden is out then he needs an enchanted weapon as a backup, but if the magus runs out, he still has plenty of spells and spell combat and a way to replenish a large amount.

However, someone in another forum has brought to my attention, that the selection for weapon abilities is a little too good though, so I will remove some of the much stronger abilities, and maybe try to reduce the enchantment bonus to a +7/8 instead.


Good to have some free Warden stuff out there. ;)

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