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Making this character for a Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign. It's not for PFS. He'll be a Battle Host Occultist who will invest into crafting magic weapons and armors(with MAYBE wondrous items)
Think magic blacksmith who uses "item magic". Sadly not investing in ACTUAL craft skills since it'd be impossible for me to make anything before the campaign ends. Will focus on the enchanting of magic gear.
Class: Battle Host Occultist
Race: Human (Dual Talented)
Traits: 2 Traits(at least 1 campaign), drawbacks might be allowed.
Stats: 20 point buy
Str 20 (+2 from racial) (+2 from Transmutation Implement)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 16 (+2 from racial)
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats and Class Features
Grabbing Racial Heritage: Elf(moar mental focus) at 1st lvl.
Using a Gauntlet for my Panoply Bond so I can still smack stuff with a greatsword/bardiche. Not choosing armor because then I'd be locked into it forever. A buckler might work even if I don't get the shield bonus.
Going with Transmutation and Conjuration Implements for the first 10 lvls, maybe change Conjuration for Abjuration instead if someone else gets CLW, but currently none. Gonna take all the standard awesome Transmutation focus powers, but I might skip Alter Size just because it's pretty weak in the first few lvls, maybe grab it after lvl10. Sudden Speed will be great for countering Heavy Armor speed penalty at low lvls.
Taking Power Attack at lvl4, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at lvl5, but the rest are mostly free or not sure yet.
Am currently leaving the feats for VMC open if I choose to take one.
Remaining empty slots: 3 feats, and another 3 combat-only feats.
What I want:
To be decent at melee, and to be able to craft well(and have a Valet familiar to help). I wish to focus more on crafting weapons and armor, but wondrous items have a wide range so I might pick it up eventually.
General combat strategy:
First turn, buff up(with legacy weapon), second turn smack away. Should have good options at dealing with situations with flying, shields, and some more minor abilities.
What I need help with:
Need opinions on VMC for this guy. Currently thinking of Magus(Arcane Pool, Familiar Arcana, Spellstrike), or Wizard(Familiar,School Powers, Discovery). Or are there better ones? Or maybe just save myself those 5 feats? Any recommendations to help my character be more effective?
Occultist lacks so many spells, which will penalize it for crafting a bit, but if I max out spellcraft it should be okay right?
Any recommendations for Implements? I only get 5, and only Transmuation is an absolute must have, so the rest are still under consideration though Abjuration(defense), Divination(utility), Conjuration(utility), and Illusion(defense) seem pretty good.
Other related questions:
1. This probably wont apply to me anyway cause I wont have any evocation spells, but can you use spellstrike with a two handed weapon? I wont have spell combat so ignore that one.
2. Does the enhancement from Arcane Pool from magus and Legacy Weapon Stack? They both say they stack with the weapon's enchantments, but what about other similar abilities?
These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
Enhancement bonuses gained by this ability stack with those of the weapon, to a maximum of +5.
Once they reach a total enhancement cost of +10, they'll cap, but that wont be too early.
TLDR; HALP WITH SMACKY MAKEY GUY
Thank you for the help and sorry for the very long post. Just felt the need to show details to help with the answers. Hope it wasn't too ... messy.
EDIT: Party is not confirmed, but currently in "concept stage" is Card Caster Magus, Knife Master Rogue, Zen Archer Monk, and a Cavalier or Swashbuckler. Starting to think I should make something sturdier haha.
I'll start by saying that a Battle Host Occultist with 14 Con and Full Plate should do okay on the survivability front. Maybe put the Trans bonus on Con if you're worried about it in the early levels as 18 Str with any 2-hander will carry you on damage until you get PA at 4. High Str + 2-hander + PA also covers you on being good at melee especially when you add Bane on top of it.
For VMC, yes Arcane Pool buffing should stack just fine, but ask you DM just in case. Some are okay with stacking straight plusses and others might only allow plusses from one and abilities from the other to stack. I think VMC Magus is a good choice for BHosts and yes, Spellstrike will work just fine with a 2-hander
On the flip side, VMC Wizard can be really good for Melee types. I like Air School for the free Flight at mid levels and the Electric Burst power is better than nothing when you encounter a swarm. Your call on which you prefer.
As for crafting, the DC gets cranked up by 5 for every spell you don't have and Occultists aren't exactly swimming in spells known. Skill Focus can really help with that of you're committed to that aspect and the Valet will help a bit as well.
All said, I think you'll do fine with what you have planned. I like Abjuration as a second implement because saves are important and APs never seem drop any good Cloaks of Resistance, but always have amusing Shoulder slot items thematic to the campaign.
That's a very magic-light group. A magus's magic is specialised - OK, they can do some battlefield control via illusions too, but usually don't - so you're going to be carrying a lot of the weight of the spellcasting roles. Expect that your general combat strategy may need to be modified with that in mind, a buff or debuff may be more important considering how many hammers / strikers the group has already. The Conjuration implement for CLW and Glitterdust sounds like a good call.
Hopefully the rogue can be convinced to take up UMD as a sideline, it'd be nice to have someone around who can heal you if you go down.
I'd think that doing melee and crafting you'll be a bit short of feats if you go with VMC. Weapon Focus, Furious Focus and Lunge should be on your list to get for a start.
Someone finally answered me! ;n;
I probably shoulda made the post smaller haha.
Slight update on party composition:
Rogue is switching to a Silver Champion Paladin. I think they lose access to their normal spells.
Also, I think the card caster wants to change to an oracle, but it was just a passing mention so I don't know if he was serious or not.
**Helpful Words**
Oo, I didn't notice Air gave flight. Does "Fly at will" still require standard action to activate though? I'll most likely be taking Mind over Gravity to fly anyway,... but then Featherfall at will is nice too... hmm... so many choices.. I'm def taking Wiz VMC now though. Magus is probably better offensively(kinda thematically for me too), but Wizard has more utility.
I am definitely going to have Skill Focus(Spellcraft) eventually.
Oh yeah, the passive save bonus from Abjuration is good too, hm... I guess if my party picks up a player who can heal/use CLW wands then I'll pick up Abjuration. I was also considering Divination for passive perception and vision bonuses but solid defense is important.
**Moar Helpful Words**
I'm not sure I'll be able to carry the group spell wise, Battle Host Occultist only gets 2 Implements(Read:schools of magic) until lvl 10(THEN 3), and I only get 1 spell per spell level per Implement. So at lvl 2 I'll have access to... 2 Lv0, Lv1, spells. And I have very few spells slots too, 3 per day for lvl1 spells. Whatever little utility Magus has is probably still better than mine haha.
Also, someone on another forum mentioned the Wizard(Arcane Crafter VMC), which might help with the feat load. Lvl3 - Valet Familiar, lvl7 - Item Creation Feat, lvl11 - Cantrip, Lvl15 - Discovery:Arcane Builder, lvl19 - Metamagic Mastery. Think that'll be enough?
Of those, at least 3 seem really worth it.
Is Weapon Focus by itself worth it? If it worked with any weapon or if there was other feats that required weapon focus, I might consider it, but +1 attack to a single weapon type seems pretty.... weak.
I have a level 13 Occultist for PFS who went full-on melee, and he's probably my favourite character.
Abjuration is stupidly good for the passive saves and the Mind Barrier ability. Though my AC is terrible, he could take hits pretty much forever.
I didn't pick Divination, but I see how incredibly awesome it can be just for the Sudden Insight and Danger Sight abilities. It allows you to make your saves and have a good to-hit bonus.
Sidenote: your group is pretty melee-heavy. I'm not sure if the Occultist is the right class to take up "magic duties." He's a 6th-level caster with an incredibly limited spell list, you'll never have the sheer firepower or diversity of a Cleric or Wizard. You could go for Evocation, but again, it's not really profitable for your build to do so unless you build him for it. And taking it at level 10 would mean you've survived 9 levels without AOE damage, I think you'll survive the latter 10 levels as well. Also, you'll get your good Evocation spells pretty late. While you can simulate Fireballs with Energy Blast, they don't scale as well and cost a lot of points. Energy Ray helps as well, but you'll need Precise Shot, I'm not sure if you have room for that in your build.
Try to pawn off healing duties to the other guys. While you're capable of doing so, your build wants to do other stuff. Other people can take a dip to wield a CLW wand, but you're locking yourself out of schools of magic by doing so, and IMHO that school doesn't have a whole lot going for it.
As for spells: You'll be hitting stuff a lot, and won't have time for spells. A full caster doesn't have anything better to do and can sling spells all he wants, but you'll probably prefer hitting things with your stick to buffing mid-combat. Try to go for utility spells like Spider Climb and Invisibility and such. My Occultist rarely ran out of spell slots, as he rarely had the time to use them in combat. As soon as I realised that, I switched to utility spells to help others out of combat, or long-duration buffs that persist over multiple combats.
Also, remember: most of your Focus Powers are short-term buffs. Buffing in combat is a bad deal, as that means you enemies get a free round of attacks. Make sure your buffs are worth the rounds spent, or get fast buffs. Mind Barrier, Sudden Insight and Danger Sight are great as you can still do your attacks. You already mentioned Sudden Speed, and it's great for closing the gap when you have crummy movement speed. Get some buffs for when you can't reach your opponent this turn (Shield, for example), but don't focus on pre-buffing, because the more time you spend, the more time they have to buff as well or simply hit you in the face.
** Helpful stuff**
Yeah, I think I'm gonna take conjuration out, the more I look at it, the more I think that pulling wand of clw duty isn't worth me losing an entire implement for at least 8 lvls. I'd rather just buy tonnes of potions to hand out to everyone. I really wish they didn't have that limitation about the spells not being my list without the school. It makes sense theme-wise, but Occultist has such a limited list anyway.. I guess it's normally made up by the UMD bonus, xept I lost those for Battle Host.
I have pretty much confirmed on Transmutation, Divination, and Abjuration as my first 3 schools. The remaining 2 will be decided as per need when I reach those lvls.
The tip on spells is something I didn't consider. Taking lead blade for my 1st lvl transmutation spell probably isn't the best idea then...
Any recommendations?
Lead Blades is pretty sweet, but I'm not really a fan of it. In my personal opinion, combats don't last long enough to make use of it, but don't let that deter you. My first Transmutation spell was Liberating Command, which is great when you're facing grapplers and/or Black Tentacles. It won't be useful most of the time, but when it's needed, you're glad you have it.
My main problem with Lead Blades is that you don't really need it in early levels, IMHO. At level 1, your enemies will have about 10 HP each, and that's aiming high. With a STR mod of +5 and a greatsword, you'll do 9 damage at the very least (7 from a two-handed weapon, 2 from 2d6). That's enough to oneshot Goblins and Skeletons, even after DR. Lead Blades makes 2d6 go to 2d8, I believe. Your average damage will go up from 7 to 9 on the dice. That's an increase of 2 for a round in which you could already have done 9 damage. And at later levels, that won't make a difference anymore until you get iterative attacks, around level 8 or so. By then, that 2 damage is barely worth it, IMHO, and you'll have access to Bane from Legacy Weapon. Lead Blades to me feels worth it if you have lots of attacks, or already have big damage dice you can enlarge even more (Druids typically, but they don't benefit from Lead Blades). But I'd be glad to be proven wrong. And don't let that deter you from choosing it. It's still pretty decent to cast pre-combat.
I found spell selection incredibly tough, and my first Occultist sorta lucked into a good spell selection (I didn't really plan him out), while my second Occultist got saddled with kinda "meh" spells. Good first-level spells to me are (in the schools you'll likely want):
Abjuration - Shield
Divination - Heightened Awareness, Comprehend Languages (again, situational, but great to have)
Illusion - Vanish, Disguise Self
Transmutation - Lead Blades, Liberating Command
I'll be honest, first-level spells kinda suck. There are no real blowouts and only situational spells here and there. Luckily, your Focus Powers function a lot like pseudo-spells. Make sure that if your spell selection is lacking, your Focus Powers give you something to do in combat. For melee-focused Occultists that's even better, because you're not depending on them for your usefulness.
Abjuration - Mind Barrier you get for free, and it's awesome. Nothing really cool at first level, but I like Mind Barrier so much I'd say it's worthwhile to get it anyway. Aegis could be useful once you get a +1 armour, but armour enchantments are kinda meh, IMHO. Planar Ward is expensive, but cool if you expect lots of summoned creatures. Loci Sentry is a nice alternative to the Alarm spell, and I think your AP is pretty urban, so it might be of use. Use if for Knowledges or attack rolls.
Divination - Sudden Insight is cool. Watchful Eye is also a good Alarm spell in an urban campaign.
Transmutation - Legacy Weapon is great, once you get a +1 weapon. Slapping Bane on your weapon costs a standard action, but is way better than Lead Blades. Size Alteration becomes worth it once you hit level 3 or so, but you can still slap it on allies and give them a boost. Sudden Speed is also great, as mentioned earlier. Ignore that 20 movement speed while in combat.
To be honest, the first level or two will be pretty tame for an Occultist. You don't have the martial prowess of your full-BAB buddies, and your spells will be pretty lacklustre. But you're still a Swiss army knife of magic. Abjuration will help you tank, Divination will help you connect or make your knowledges or skill checks, and Transmutation is great because of that +2 bonus to (probably) Strength, making you hit slightly harder.
Do levels of Psychometrist (Vigilante) stack? Might be a way to snag some extra Implements quickly if they do - No Resonant Powers with Psychometrist thou, hampers your spell casting as well.
**Many helpful things**
Hmm yeah, lead blade is def not worth it. 2D6 increases to 3D6, which isn't much unless I expect the fight to drag on. I saw the table wrong and thought it went up to 4D8 for some reason, my bad. I'm still at a bit of a toss up between Divination and Abjuration for the 2nd Implement, but I can just play the first level and see how it goes I guess.
Thank you for all the advice! I def missed out a few things about combat strategy and such.Do levels of Psychometrist (Vigilante) stack? Might be a way to snag some extra Implements quickly if they do - No Resonant Powers with Psychometrist thou, hampers your spell casting as well.
Hmm.. I don't see why they wouldn't stack, but I'll pass. I think dipping a lvl in psychometrist loses more things than it gains. (well, xept skills and reflex/will saves)
Are you tied to the Battle Host archetype? Not that it's a bad one, but from what I've seen its primary value is either in talking the GM into letting you start with something really expensive as your panoply bond (Mithral full plate!) or if you're an archer and you desperately need more feats.
From your description you don't seem to be getting a ton out of it, so you might just consider the vanilla occultist? It's still plenty strong in combat.
Are you tied to the Battle Host archetype? Not that it's a bad one, but from what I've seen its primary value is either in talking the GM into letting you start with something really expensive as your panoply bond (Mithral full plate!) or if you're an archer and you desperately need more feats.
From your description you don't seem to be getting a ton out of it, so you might just consider the vanilla occultist? It's still plenty strong in combat.
I mostly took it cause it looked cool. The Heroic splendor bonus to stats is nice, and I wanted the Spirit warrior to be my character's mentor coming to help him in battle. Mechanically speaking, the loss of an Implement isn't too bad for me, the only real concern was the party's need for a clw user, but it should be manageable. I also didn't care much about the circle stuff, so that wasn't too bad either.
The bonus combat feats can also be nice to offset the loss of feats to VMC. Without them, I'd have to take power attack at lvl 9! (or 5, if I choose to take craft magic arms/armor later)
TLDR: Picked it cause the penalties weren't too bad and the abilities/limitations fit what I wanted from the character anyway. Which is a Magic Martial Blacksmith.
You're giving up two implements with the Battle Host, not one.
Regular Occultist gets their 5th implement at level 10, Battle host gets their 3rd. I don't know about your games, but the bulk of mine usually take place before level 10. Your magic item skill and object reading skills also get weaker. I agree that the circles and outsider contact stuff is pretty much just for flavor and the other abilities the Battle Host gets are neat.
The question you just have to consider is "how much am I going to miss by having only 2 schools magic available for the first 10 levels." With the party you're in, that might be an issue.
The Magus and Occultist weapon enhancement bonuses do not stack, despite what another poster has said they are both listed as enhancement bonuses which do not stack.
If your going with melee I would defintely recommend sticking with Battle Host, having more implements gives you more options (more spells known) but Battle Host grants you a straight up power increase in feats and abilities and you cast the same amount of spells and have the same amount of points to put in items.
You're giving up two implements with the Battle Host, not one.
Regular Occultist gets their 5th implement at level 10, Battle host gets their 3rd. I don't know about your games, but the bulk of mine usually take place before level 10. Your magic item skill and object reading skills also get weaker. I agree that the circles and outsider contact stuff is pretty much just for flavor and the other abilities the Battle Host gets are neat.
The question you just have to consider is "how much am I going to miss by having only 2 schools magic available for the first 10 levels." With the party you're in, that might be an issue.
Ah, forgot that regular occultist gets 2 more before lvl10.
I have never played a game past lv8 so I can't judge. I've played 3 PF campaigns so far. One's at lvl8, another at 4, and the last at 2. I don't even know what lvl most campaigns end at.I realize Battle Host loses quite a bit of utility, but honestly I never intended to build this character for party utility. Don't get me wrong, I will offer whatever aid I can provide, but I don't want to give up what I want for my character for it either.
Based on my inexperienced view, I feel like even with normal Occultist, its party utility is much more limited than other 6th level casters anyway. Spells on untaken Implements don't even count as being on their spell list.
And honestly speaking if I was told to provide more party support I'd have just played another class. I mean, there are classes with 3/4 BAB and 9th level spells. That seems weird to me. Even if their spell selection is weaker, they'd still have much stronger spells and have more spells slots at the end of the day. They even still get great strong class features.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I would still prefer to stick with the Battle Host.
The Magus and Occultist weapon enhancement bonuses do not stack, despite what another poster has said they are both listed as enhancement bonuses which do not stack.
If your going with melee I would defintely recommend sticking with Battle Host, having more implements gives you more options (more spells known) but Battle Host grants you a straight up power increase in feats and abilities and you cast the same amount of spells and have the same amount of points to put in items.
What if the enhancement bonuses were different though? Like I took basic enhancement from Arcane Pool and special abilities from Legacy weapon? I've pretty much chosen wizard vmc alrdy, but it's still good to know for future reference.
And yes, I agree that Battle Host is very nice for melee. It comes at a cost but it's acceptable for what I want for my character.
Are you tied to the Battle Host archetype? Not that it's a bad one, but from what I've seen its primary value is either in talking the GM into letting you start with something really expensive as your panoply bond (Mithral full plate!) or if you're an archer and you desperately need more feats.
Just to correct you: It's supposed to be just a regular weapon. It's worded poorly, but the term "masterwork quality" suggests it's just a regular material.
I realize Battle Host loses quite a bit of utility, but honestly I never intended to build this character for party utility.
And honestly speaking if I was told to provide more party support I'd have just played another class.
Battle host loses the true power behind the "Magic item skill" feature, that by itself is more utility than whole classes can sometimes bring. Especially if you are only playing in the low levels (levels 5th - 8th). Where most UMD classes are only able to Reliably sling stolen magical devices just before level 9, Base Occultist is doing that at level 5-6. That's even excluding good Cha.
Battle host can only manipulate weapons, armor, and shields, and the few of those that ever need UMD checks are often artifacts.
Spirit Warrior, Heroic Splendor, Mend (Implement), Some Bonus Feats depending
All class features which you can pick up on low level scrolls.