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This spell stands out as an exceedingly effective way to block the movement of many opponent
1. for a really long time (10 minutes per level!)
2. without save
3. without spell resistance
4. making it extremely difficult to escape (basically, unless you have spells/effects like dimension door or a very high Strength you're blocked there for an hour and a half or more...)
5. you can cast it already on spaces occupied by creature (this puts this spell apart from other walls)
6. and it is only a 5th level spell.
Am I missing/misinterpreting something here or it really works this way? It looks way too powerful to be true (i.e. broken).
Additional important questions (dear Paizo staff, I'd be delighted if you could reply to these questions):
- what can you do while you are inside the wall?
- Can you attack with ranged weapons? Is there a concealment/cover modifier?
- If you are inside the wall, unable to move, can you still attack with melee weapons opponents which are on squares within their reach? Viceversa, can creatures from outside make melee attacks to creatures within reach imprisoned in the wall?
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EDIT: Let me comment on some relevant sections from the spell description:
Creatures can force their way slowly through the wall by making a Strength check as a full-round action. For every 5 points by which the check exceeds 20, a creature moves 5 feet (up to a maximum distance equal to its normal land speed). Of course, moving or attempting to move through the thorns incurs damage as described above. A creature trapped in the thorns can choose to remain motionless in order to avoid taking any more damage.
That is WAY too difficult! You need a minimum Strength of 20 just to have a 5% probability of scoring a 20+5 = 25 and be able to move 5 feet.
Fighter types can maybe get out (with some difficult), but what about all the other characters with Strength 19 or less? I am thinking e.g. of bards and rogues here, but also clerics could easily be in troubles. And there is no alternative here: you can't use Escape Artist for example, although that would make sense.
Any creature within the area of the spell when it is cast takes damage as if it had moved into the wall and is caught inside.
So you can cast it on squares already occupied by creatures. Scary!
In order to escape, it must attempt to push its way free
yes, if you have Strength 20+, and even then it's going to be ugly.
or it can wait until the spell ends.
Oh, sure, it is just 10 minutes per level after all.
You better hope that your resident party caster still has a dispel magic left.
Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage.
So the druid could enter into melee and the cast the wall all around himself and then move on. Neat. Too neat.
A wall of thorns can be breached by slow work with edged weapons. Chopping away at the wall creates a safe passage 1 foot deep for every 10 minutes of work. Normal fire cannot harm the barrier, but magical fire burns it away in 10 minutes.
We are still talking about hundreds of rounds here. None of this can be done in combat.
It's a 5th level spell. You know what else is a 5th level spell? Wall of force. That one's even harder to get through (30 hardness and 180 hit points at minimum caster level, and it's flat out immune to dispel magic, unlike wall of thorns).
It's a 5th level spell. It's supposed to be fairly strong.
The only thing I can really see wrong with it is possibly the duration. All the other walls with a duration longer then 1 round per level was 1 minute per level. Well that and permanent.
Honestly the damage is fine (by 9th level 25 minus AC isn't that much), the fact that you can walk through it at all is nice even if it is really hard. As for it not going away in combat neither do most of the rest of that wall spells. They only go away when you spend an ungodly amount of time chipping away at them or you wait for the spell's duration to run out. With wall of stone and wall of iron that doesn't even happen. They stay there until you break through them.
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It's a 5th level spell. You know what else is a 5th level spell? Wall of force. That one's even harder to get through (30 hardness and 180 hit points at minimum caster level, and it's flat out immune to dispel magic, unlike wall of thorns).
Getting through wall of force is not harder. Your middle-to-high-level, high-strength buddies outside (as well as summoned creatures) could help you damage the wall, overcoming the 30 hardness.
Not so with wall of thorns: the only thing the high-strength buddy can do is - ugh - cross the wall, but he's not going to free you.
Plus, wall of force lasts 1 round/level.
Wall of thorns lasts 10 minutes/level.
It is a factor 100 more. ONE HUNDRED.
Moreover, wall of force is a flat vertical plane. In most situations you can walk around it (you are not imprisoned [b]inside[/i] it as for wall of thorns) or at least fly away, or have flying buddies (or summoned creature) intervene and get you, rather then having to wait for 1.5+ hours.
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Honestly the damage is fine (by 9th level 25 minus AC isn't that much),
Sure. In fact - if you notice - I did not even mention damage.
With wall of stone and wall of iron that doesn't even happen. They stay there until you break through them.
They stay there but they are purely ornamental after a few rounds.
Wall of iron is not really shapeable. You can't easily imprison creatures with that in most situations.
Wall of stone is much more versatile. You can surround opponents with it.
Yes, surround, so they can get out in many ways, including flight - or having a flying buddy come inside and take them out, without having to wait for 150+ minutes imprisoned in there.
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That means nothing to my assertion that Wall spells are powerful as a general rule.Most 'Wall' spells are strong like that. Wall of Sand suffocated a whole group of enemies one game.Wall of Sand is not in the Core Rulebook AFAIK.
I am not disputing about "wall spells" in general throughout the history of role-playing games.
I am talking about the spell Wall of Thorns in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, compared to other spells of comparable level in the same rulebook.This said, I'd be curious to learn where Wall of Sand is described.
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I am not disputing about "wall spells" in general throughout the history of role-playing games.
I am talking about the spell Wall of Thorns in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, compared to other spells of comparable level in the same rulebook.This said, I'd be curious to learn where Wall of Sand is described.
I want to say Sandstorm, but I could be wrong. *checks* Hmm, well that was right, but I believe the way it was used in my anecdote may have been incorrect. *shrugs* It's been a few years, and I wasn't the one to use it.
Getting through wall of force is not harder. Your high-strength buddy outside (or summed creatures) could help you damage the wall, overcoming the 30 hardness.
Sure, you try that. 30 hardness is damn near impossible to overcome at level 9. Even a raging barbarian with a total of 30 strength, wielding a +2 greatsword and power attacking, only deals an average of 6 damage per hit. When the wall has 180 hit points, minimum, 6 damage per attack is not enough to matter. As for summoned creatures, not a single creature that is available as a 5th level spell can reliably damage a wall of force.
Wall of Stone can enclose creatures.
Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Teleport aren't exactly uncommon spells to have available. Gaseous Form should work, too. And magical fire, whatever that turns out to be.
Wall of Thorns is good, but certainly not broken.
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Sure, you try that. 30 hardness is damn near impossible to overcome at level 9. Even a raging barbarian with a total of 30 strength, wielding a +2 greatsword and power attacking, only deals an average of 6 damage per hit. When the wall has 180 hit points, minimum, 6 damage per attack is not enough to matter. As for summoned creatures, not a single creature that is available as a 5th level spell can reliably damage a wall of force.
Point taken. At the higher levels however you can damage it. With Wall of Thorns the amount of damage you deal does not matter.
But, more importantly, what about the other half of my post:
Moreover, wall of force is a flat vertical plane. In most situations you can walk around it (you are not imprisoned [b]inside[/i] it as for wall of thorns) or at least fly away, or have flying buddies (or summoned creature) intervene and get you, rather then having to wait for 1.5+ hours.
The capability of the wall of force to imprison a creature is far more situational than that of the wall of thorns.
Moreover, suppose in some way you happen to be blocked by the wall of force. Fine. At least we know that opponents from the other side can not target you with melee/ranged attacks and spells.
If you read the OP again you'll see that I am not clear what happens instead with wall of thorn in this respect.
Can opponents attack you with melee/ranged weapons and/or spells while you are in the wall? It does not seem to mention that it blocks the line of effect.
Generally speaking, walls block line of effect unless they contain at least a 1 square foot hole in a 5 foot square area. I don't know if the shapeability of Wall of Thorns would allow such an aperture. Wall of Stone does allow it, but that is specifically pointed out in the description.
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Wall of Stone can enclose creatures.
But at least it gives you a Saving Throw! That is a huge difference!
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.
Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Teleport aren't exactly uncommon spells to have available. Gaseous Form should work, too. And magical fire, whatever that turns out to be.
Magical fire?! Read it again: 10 minutes, that would be 100 rounds!
As for the spell, they can save the wizard blocked inside, but what about the other characters?(The only easily accessible way out I see is dispel magic, as I already wrote in my original post. But woe to the party that is out of dispel magic!)
Magical fire?! Read it again: 10 minutes, that would be 100 rounds!
As for the spell, they can save the wizard blocked inside, but what about the other characters?(The only easily accessible way out I see is dispel magic, as I already wrote in my original post. But woe to the party that is out of dispel magic!)
I'm not sure what they're getting at with magical fire (whether magically started, or constantly magically generated - planar bound fire elemental could do it, but who's sporting one of those, right?).
The benefits of playing a Sorcerer is you may very well never be without Dispel Magic.
Adventuring parties would due well to invest in Dimension Door/Teleport scrolls to have in inventory all the time. Sometimes you gotta get the hell outta dodge!
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Generally speaking, walls block line of effect unless they contain at least a 1 square foot hole in a 5 foot square area. I don't know if the shapeability of Wall of Thorns would allow such an aperture. Wall of Stone does allow it, but that is specifically pointed out in the description.
I am sorry, I am not seeing that reference in the wall of stone description. The description says "A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level."
So I would say those 5-foot square are the building blocks, but I am not 100% sure about this and I really welcome clarifications on this.In general, the question of if the creatures from outside can target the creatures imprisoned in the wall (and how can the latter creatures respond) is of great importance, because that raises basically everytime the spell is cast in combat.
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You were raped by the Wall of Thorns spell recently, weren't you?
Wall of thorns is really, really effective and it sucks when someone hit you when you're not prepared, but guess what, so does a Finger of Death spell, or a Hold Person spell, etc.
Your character is probably dead meat, time to roll up another one. It sucks, I know, but sometimes the DM ends up putting you in checkmate.
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I'm not sure what they're getting at with magical fire (whether magically started, or constantly magically generated - planar bound fire elemental could do it, but who's sporting one of those, right?).
Maybe a fireball is enough? What about burning hands then? I am also not clear about this one...
But then again,1. the required time is for sure 10 minutes, really too much to be of any use in combat
2. it is not clear what happens to the creatures inside: are they going to be affected by the fireball? Is there line of effect?
The benefits of playing a Sorcerer is you may very well never be without Dispel Magic.Adventuring parties would due well to invest in Dimension Door/Teleport scrolls to have in inventory all the time. Sometimes you gotta get the hell outta dodge!
I fully agree with you on this!
But what about the enemies that the party encounters? If they are on the ground and have no access to those spells they are so easily immobilized! There are other spells of comparable level that block creatures, but they typically grant saves (even 1/round sometimes), spell resistance, and so on.
I am sorry, I am not seeing that reference in the wall of stone description. The description says "A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level."
So I would say those 5-foot square are the building blocks, but I am not 100% sure about this and I really welcome clarifications on this.In general, the question of if the creatures from outside can target the creatures imprisoned in the wall (and how can the latter creatures respond) is of great importance, because that raises basically everytime the spell is cast in combat.
From D20PFSRD - Wall of Stone:
Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell's area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenelations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.Somewhere between 'any shape you desire' and crenelations and battlements comes the ability to allow for an opening. Those 5 ft squares are wall-like, not cube-like, so blocks they ain't.
Again, as a wall it should block line of effect.
Actually, even at higher levels the chances of you destroying a wall of force via damage is almost nonexistent. A level 20 barbarian with absolute maximum strength (20 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement + 8 raging = 44) power attacking with a +5 greatsword still only deals 25 average damage per attack, while a 20th level caster's wall of force has 400 hit points.
You're also ignoring that wall of thorns is quickly and easily dealt with by the most common 3rd level spell in the game, dispel magic. Other spells that might work to counter it: warp wood, repel wood, freedom of movement, animate plants, blink, diminish plants, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gaseous form, passwall, phase door. Note that none of those function against a wall of force (and most of them don't work against any other wall spell, either).
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You were raped by the Wall of Thorns spell recently, weren't you?
Luckily I am currently on the other side of the GM screen! :)
Wall of thorns is really, really effective and it sucks when someone hit you when you're not prepared, but guess what, so does a Finger of Death spell, or a Hold Person spell, etc.Your character is probably dead meat, time to roll up another one. It sucks, I know, but sometimes the DM ends up putting you in checkmate.
Not a fair comparison.
Finger of death is higher level and allows for save and SR. And it just deal some damage, nothing to be too worried about (the party is not going to be completely neutralized by a single finger of death anyway).
Hold Person, Mass is also higher level, i.e. 7th, it allows for one save per round (as opposed to: "being blocked for 1.5+ hours"), it concedes SR and it is much more situational, in that it only affects - guess what - humanoid creatures!
In conclusion, both spells are way weaker than WoT.
But what about the enemies that the party encounters? If they are on the ground and have no access to those spells they are so easily immobilized! There are other spells of comparable level that block creatures, but they typically grant saves (even 1/round sometimes), spell resistance, and so on.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of the women....
They're certainly bypassed, but they probably aren't dead. And they shouldn't mess with Mother Nature.
He's got a good point, you can drop a block of it 20ft x 15ft and odds are really good they will be stuck there for the duration of the spell. Seems like it should have a reflex save at least.
odds are really good they will be stuck there for the duration of the spell.
I disagree. There are lots and lots of counters to it, and the best of them are even lower level than the spell itself.
When I was a kid, there were alot of blackberry bushes we played around in, building tunnels, or in tunnels already there. I would say that one can't see thru even 5' thick of blackberry thorns enough for targetting, though general light level on the opposite side would be apparent.
Great spell - even stopped my epic group for a few seconds once. Any magical fire will make it burn for 10 minutes (previous editions made it turn *into* a wall of fire).
To my mind, Wall of Thorns is the 5th level answer to 1st level Entangle.
Enjoy!
When I was a kid, there were alot of blackberry bushes we played around in, building tunnels, or in tunnels already there. I would say that one can't see thru even 5' thick of blackberry thorns enough for targetting, though general light level on the opposite side would be apparent.
I agree. Perhaps clouds, gases, mists should be allowed to move through the area then?
I was meaning dropping it on someone who is not magically inclined. Like a fighter. From a PC vs. monster perspective there aren't many monsters who can work their way free of that reliably.
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Actually, even at higher levels the chances of you destroying a wall of force via damage is almost nonexistent. A level 20 barbarian with absolute maximum strength (20 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement + 8 raging = 44) power attacking with a +5 greatsword still only deals 25 average damage per attack, while a 20th level caster's wall of force has 400 hit points.
That can't be right unless your barbarian has a Strength of 12.
I get 2d6 + 42 = 49 (in average) per attack. 19 of these will pass the hardness.
- Strength 44 = +17 bonus, weapon is used two-handed so +25 to damage
- Power attack = -6 to hit, +12 to damage
- Enhancement bonus = +5
As a full-round action, the barbarian gets 4 attacks per round (5 if hasted). So he inflicts in average 76 (95 if hasted) damages per round to the wall.
(A little less actually, since he'll be rolling 1 once in 20, but very close to that).
...I would say that one can't see thru even 5' thick of blackberry thorns enough for targetting, though general light level on the opposite side would be apparent.I agree. Perhaps clouds, gases, mists should be allowed to move through the area then?
Definitely. It is sort of a shame that there isn't a mechanic to use Escape Artist to escape also. At least it seems a viable mechanic to determine how very small creatures (<Small) could crawl thru the thorns, which is reasonable for rat/ferret/small bird sized creatures.
You counting the hardness of 30?
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I agree. Perhaps clouds, gases, mists should be allowed to move through the area then?
Think of a PCs party that block opponents with Wall of Thorns and merciless treat them with Cloudkill...
Please let me quote you on the effects of that tactic! :)
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of the women....
I agree. Perhaps clouds, gases, mists should be allowed to move through the area then?Think of a PCs party that block opponents with Wall of Thorns and merciless treat them with Cloudkill...
Please let me quote you on the effects of that tactic! :)
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of the women....
6HD and up = 4d4 Con damage, save for 1/2. Where was that teleport scroll again?
Actually, even at higher levels the chances of you destroying a wall of force via damage is almost nonexistent. A level 20 barbarian with absolute maximum strength (20 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement + 8 raging = 44) power attacking with a +5 greatsword still only deals 25 average damage per attack, while a 20th level caster's wall of force has 400 hit points.
That can't be right unless your barbarian has a Strength of 12.
I get 2d6 + 42 = 49 (in average) per attack. 19 of these will pass the hardness.
- Strength 44 = +17 bonus, weapon is used two-handed so +25 to damage
- Power attack = -6 to hit, +12 to damage
- Enhancement bonus = +5As a full-round action, the barbarian gets 4 attacks per round (5 if hasted). So he inflicts in average 76 (95 if hasted) damages per round to the wall.
(A little less actually, since he'll be rolling 1 once in 20, but very close to that).
-6 to hit, +18 to damage for power attack. That yields 55 base damage per attack. Subtract 30 from that for hardness and you have 25.
And you're still ignoring all the spells that can negate wall of thorns.
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-6 to hit, +18 to damage for power attack. That yields 55 base damage per attack. Subtract 30 from that for hardness and you have 25.
Oh, now I see it. I was forgetting that PA is +3 for 2H weapons. Thanks for pointing that out! I thought you obtained 25 total!.
But then you see that the barbarian can do 100 (125 if hasted) average damage per round to the wall. Sure you can break that faster than you break a wall of thorns. Not mentioning that the fighter can contribute too.With WoT every character is on his own.
And you're still ignoring all the spells that can negate wall of thorns.
Spells that will hardly be available to the monsters in a typical PCs vs monsters situation.
Moreover, several of those spells have a range of Touch or Personal. How does the caster help his companions blocked inside with those?
Others are extremely specific, and unlikely to be memorized (e.g. diminish plants; never seen the druid prepare that unless he knew in advance he was going against something "druidy").
The only one that I can see used in most situations to get rid of the WoD is dispel magic, as I said in my OP by the way. So one really needs to rely heavily on the availability of dispel magic.
And you're still ignoring all the spells that can negate wall of thorns.
And you're still ignoring my observation that wall of force is a flat vertical plane. In most situations you can walk around it (you are not imprisoned inside it as for wall of thorns) or fly away, or have flying buddies (or summoned creature) intervene and get you out, rather then having to wait for 1.5+ hours. Plus, WoF only lasts for 1 round/level!
A really fair comparison would be with wall of stone that can be used to surround/imprison/block but - guess what - wall of stone does concede a Reflex save.
And you're still ignoring my observation that wall of force is a flat vertical plane. In most situations you can walk around it (you are not imprisoned inside it as for wall of thorns) or fly away, or have flying buddies (or summoned creature) intervene and get you out, rather then having to wait for 1.5+ hours. Plus, WoF only lasts for 1 round/level!
Actually, I'd say most situations would not allow you to "just walk around" a wall of force. Dungeons and other interior locations are, in my experience, several times more common than exterior locations. Walls of force easily and effectively block off pretty much any interior space. Yes, it only lasts rounds/level. It's also much harder to negate. That's called balance.
The only one that I can see used in most situations to get rid of the WoD is dispel magic, as I said in my OP by the way. So one really needs to rely heavily on the availability of dispel magic.
Freedom of movement is an extremely common buff, and rings of freedom of movement are quite possibly the second or third most common rings bought by adventurers (after rings of protection and rings of invisibility). Blink is also a common spell.
As for monsters ... well, first, that's moving the goalpost. The entire thread up to this point has been about how it is or isn't unfair to the PCs and how PCs can or can't easily negate any other wall. Throwing in monsters at this point is tantamount to admitting that you're wrong about PCs. Secondly, monsters are far more likely than players to be able to bypass wall of thorns. They have higher strengths, on average, and almost every higher-level monster has some magical means of either removing the obstruction or ignoring it.
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As for monsters ... well, first, that's moving the goalpost. The entire thread up to this point has been about how it is or isn't unfair to the PCs and how PCs can or can't easily negate any other wall. Throwing in monsters at this point is tantamount to admitting that you're wrong about PCs.
This is not at all about me being wrong or right.
This thread opens with a question. I even put the question mark in the title. I was asking for other people point of view about the spell. You raised several interesting points to which I replied not to prove you wrong but just because I was not convinced they fully addressed the problem.After reading yours and other posters considerations I am still a bit ambivalent about this spell.
I am starting to think that the three questions in the original post - reported below - have a huge impact in evaluating if the spell is overpowered (compared to other spells of similar level, it goes without saying). If it is possible to attack with spells and/or weapons the blocked creatures within the WoT (e.g. poison them with a cloudkill, or cast a blade barrier on them) then that makes a fundamental difference wrt wall of force.
The questions - slightly reformulated - are:
1. What can a creature do (i.e. which actions can it take) while inside the wall?
2. Does the WoT provide a concealment/cover modifier to those inside? Does it block the line-of-effect of spells?
3A. If a creature is blocked inside the wall, can it still attack with melee weapons opponents which happen to be on squares within its reach? Can it attack target outside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
Can it attack other targets inside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
3B. Viceversa, can creatures from outside make melee attacks to the creatures inside the wall (and within reach)?
Can creatures from outside target the creatures inside with ranged attacks and spells?
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The questions - slightly reformulated - are:
1. What can a creature do (i.e. which actions can it take) while inside the wall?
2. Does the WoT provide a concealment/cover modifier to those inside? Does it block the line-of-effect of spells?
3A. If a creature is blocked inside the wall, can it still attack with melee weapons opponents which happen to be on squares within its reach? Can it attack target outside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
Can it attack other targets inside the wall with ranged weapons or spells?
3B. Viceversa, can creatures from outside make melee attacks to the creatures inside the wall (and within reach)?
Can creatures from outside target the creatures inside with ranged attacks and spells?
1.) They can attempt most things they could do while outside. It is a solid barrier, though, that does not have line of effect or line of sight to outside of the wall. It is actually more like a shapable Web than a Wall spell. Note you take damage from contact with the spell, not moving through it. (sort of)
2.) It does provide total Cover and blocks Line of effect and line of sight. Technically, it also provides total concealment, but Cover basically trumps that. The first line of the spell says it creates a barrier, (that occupies a 5ft square min). PF pg 196 [total cover] (. . . "that is, you can not draw a line from our square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier". . .).
3.) A & B. No, except for spells that do not target, do not require line of effect or sight.
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2.) It does provide total Cover and blocks Line of effect and line of sight. Technically, it also provides total concealment, but Cover basically trumps that. The first line of the spell says it creates a barrier, (that occupies a 5ft square min). PF pg 196 [total cover] (. . . "that is, you can not draw a line from our square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier". . .).3.) A & B. No, except for spells that do not target, do not require line of effect or sight.
This might be a sound interpretation, but the text is not explicit about the spell providing total cover and blocking line of effect.
And the nature of the spell (it creates a barrier of thorns, and you can actually pass through it, albeit with a considerable effort -- see the strength check) is such that it is not obvious that this is a solid barrier as per iron wall or stone wall.
For example (as pointed out above), can creatures inside the wall be affected by a spell-generated cloud effect?
This is not at all clear.
I think it needs an official clarification in these respects.
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I think it needs an official clarification in these respects.
Meh. I think that's the GM's job.
If you're really concerned that a druid can cast this spell, change the wording so that the Strength check always allows at least 5 feet of movement. I noticed that the area within the effect is not described as impassable which means taking a 5-foot step as a full-round action is within the rules, I think.
Just rule that the Strength check allows you to push your way through some number of 5-foot squares without taking damage, with or without a minimum of 5-feet of movement. The Strength check simply lets you move further than you normally would and removes the damage as well.
And I don't have much problem with the DC 25 base on the Strength check. I have a bugbear barbarian in my campaign that runs around with a Str 30 normally and can rage for a high score. :-/
As others have said, dimension door is a great way out of this. If the party is all bunched together, then the arcane caster reaches out and touches as many of his companions as possible and *poof* they're out. Or if the party is spread out quite a bit, then there's less chance of all of them being caught inside the WoT in the first place.
I agree that this is a must-have spell for the 9th level druid, though. Of course, I've seen druids use mud to stone, build a ceiling structure out of it, and then combine dispel magic with control water to drown a mid-level party. (The stone returns to mud which falls on the creatures and traps them in addition to doing damage, then the water is raised and the creatures drown while summoned sharks or similar creatures attack them. :))
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Wall of Thorns was overpowered in 3.5 and it hasn't changed any. I had a high level druid in the Living Greyhawk campaign and one of her preferred tactics was to dump a wall of thorns to enclose the enemy. In tiger form, she shared freedom of movement with her dire tiger animal companion and you just rip stuff to shreds while it's trapped. With reach, you aren't even at risk from creatures that don't have reach.
Someone compared it to a 5th level entangle and it's the same sort of annoying spell that tends to frustrate gamemasters.
Let's look at some CR 9 monsters and see what they do about the spell.
Young Bronze Dragon. Fly and swim speeds, breath weapon for 6d6 electricity damage. Strength 21.
It can make the strength check on a natural 20. It has no casting, and no useful spell-like abilities.
The best strategy that I can think of is for it to polymorph into a large animal to get a +4 size bonus to strength. Assuming 10 feet of movement is sufficient for it to escape, that should take about 14 turns. Half of that time it would be half out of the wall and vulnerable to ranged attacks and spells (assuming the wall blocks line of sight and line of effect).
Dire Crocodile A 30x30 patch forces it to move 10 feet to get to an edge, then 10 feet to get out. Could it also escape by just going up 10 feet?
The good news is that is has a strength of 37, or a +13 modifier. So 25% of the time, it moves 5 feet and 15% of the time it moves 10 feet. That averages 2.7 feet per round, so it is free in 4 rounds (if it can go up) or 8 rounds if it has to go out the side. With a space of 20 feet, the top of it is visible for ranged attacks the entire time.
Frost Giant Strength 29. Moves 5 feet when it rolls a 16 or better, so once every 4 rounds. If he's part of a tribe, there's also a level 6 or 7 sorcerer with him, who might know dispel magic.
Spirit Naga Strength 18. Default third level spells are fireball and displacement, and none of the lower level ones are useful either. She's going to wait an hour and a half, and hope no one can kill her in the meantime.
Overall, I'd say this spell, when attacking monsters instead of NPC's, is somewhat better than Maze, an eighth level spell.
- It can trap multiple creatures.
- To be able to escape in rounds requires strength 20 instead of intelligence 10
- Potentially traps the enemy for 10 minutes/level, not 10 minutes
- Large and bigger creatures are exposed to attacks near the end of their escape
- No SR
- Not only are minotaurs vulnerable to it, they can't escape (strength 19) :-)
Wall of Thorns was overpowered in 3.5 and it hasn't changed any. I had a high level druid in the Living Greyhawk campaign and one of her preferred tactics was to dump a wall of thorns to enclose the enemy. In tiger form, she shared freedom of movement with her dire tiger animal companion and you just rip stuff to shreds while it's trapped. With reach, you aren't even at risk from creatures that don't have reach.
Someone compared it to a 5th level entangle and it's the same sort of annoying spell that tends to frustrate gamemasters.
My group used similar tactics (there were 3 of us). Once our druid got this spell, he'd cast the spell, we'd all have freedom of movement somehow (through rings, spells, and eventually a wand) and we'd just walk through and destroy the enemies. Seriously, from about 9th level on it made us virtually unstoppable. Even against most bosses, this ended up being a terrible tactic.
I think that the spell is fine if your PCs come across an enemy druid once or twice and the enemy uses it, but this spell is totally abusive in the hands of a PC druid. Take it from someone who used it in almost every fight from 9th to 20th level.
The spell, like alot of tactics, are good every once in awhile. the PC's are powerful and deserve to flex the ole muscles abit and prove it by handily taking down an encounter.
However, if the PC's go around using the same tactic over and over then word will get out. At that level range, baddies can Scry. They can have invisible cronies spy on the PC's. They can talk to the dead who the PC's used the tactic on.
In short- they can be prepared for it. No matter how powerful the tactic, there are always handy ways to prepare for it.
Critters prepared to take care of our one-trick pony group will be more than able to turn the tide on them. (by using the spell back at them, by having multiple dispels ready, by using illusions to have the PC's waste their spells on locations that dont' have opponents in them, by spreading out so the PC's can't catch them all in one spell, or what have you).
If the PC's hold the tactic in reserve for something to do when the s@&! hits then fan then they are doing what they are supposed to do. Winning. If they are just using the same tactic over and over, beat them down with it once.. twice if necessary. If they still don't get the drift then you need to sit the group down and deal with the spell in a more forceful fashion. (by removing it or nerfing it, or whatever).
Just my .02
-S
Anyone have an idea how long it would take to magically burn through the thorns? Or what constitutes magic fire?
Here's why I ask. What if, enemies are caught in the wall and are trying to escape. We could facilitate that by magically burning the thorns, and the creatures inside, since it takes so long to get through.
This of course only works if it takes more than a few rounds for the thorns to burn.
Not only would they be burning but they would also be taking thorn damage as they try to escape the enferno. Like wall of throns and then wall of fire right on top of that.
just a thought.
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Anyone have an idea how long it would take to magically burn through the thorns? Or what constitutes magic fire?
Here's why I ask. What if, enemies are caught in the wall and are trying to escape. We could facilitate that by magically burning the thorns, and the creatures inside, since it takes so long to get through.
This of course only works if it takes more than a few rounds for the thorns to burn.
Not only would they be burning but they would also be taking thorn damage as they try to escape the enferno. Like wall of throns and then wall of fire right on top of that.
just a thought.
It takes 10 minutes for a magical fire to burn through the entire spell. That is, they would take 2d4 (or 1d6 ?) fire damage every round for 10 minutes, or until they escaped. Plus the the noraml piercing damage.