Questions about Monks


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Dark Archive

You are right, Malachi: your Sohei1/Weaponmaster3 has access to the fighter Weapon Training feat - but he doesn't have access to the SOHEI ability that modifies that FIGHTER Weapon Training ability unless he has attained level 6 in Sohei.

On these boards all kinds of crazy rule bending interpretations will get at least a few people to agree with you. the fact that NOBODY is agreeing with you on your twisted interpretation of the rules should be a clue that your interpretation is wrong.

As mentioned by more than a couple of people, you can do whatever you want to do in your own home game, but you would be really hard pressed to find a PFS GM that is going to buy what you are selling.

Silver Crusade

Kwauss wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quote:
None of which is relevant, because that text does not exist for all intents and purposes until you are Sohei 6.

It doesn't exist until you have Weapon Training.

The Weapon Training ability itself is identical to, and stacks with, Weapon Training gained from fighter levels. It's just that Sohei with weapon training can use those weapons to flurry. Any Weapon Trainng.

Please quote the text of the ability you have at level 3 of weaponmaster that allows flurrying with Weapon Training.

The ability to flurry with weapons in which you have Weapon Training is not an ability of Weaponmasters, it's an ability of Sohei. It kicks in when they get Weapon Training. It doesn't care where they get Weapon Training from.

Please quote where it says that this ability only applies to Sohei of level 6.


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Argus The Slayer wrote:

the fact that NOBODY is agreeing with you on your twisted interpretation of the rules should be a clue that your interpretation is wrong.

I agree with him.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Kwauss wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Quote:
None of which is relevant, because that text does not exist for all intents and purposes until you are Sohei 6.

It doesn't exist until you have Weapon Training.

The Weapon Training ability itself is identical to, and stacks with, Weapon Training gained from fighter levels. It's just that Sohei with weapon training can use those weapons to flurry. Any Weapon Trainng.

Please quote the text of the ability you have at level 3 of weaponmaster that allows flurrying with Weapon Training.

The ability to flurry with weapons in which you have Weapon Training is not an ability of Weaponmasters, it's an ability of Sohei. It kicks in when they get Weapon Training. It doesn't care where they get Weapon Training from.

Please quote where it says that this ability only applies to Sohei of level 6.

We dont have to. That text doesn't exist until Sohei 6. Fighter weapon training is a different ability with the same name (which allows it to work for any Sohei with their variant of the ability), but it does not have the exactly same effect.

As was said earlier in the thread, for this to work the way you want, the Sohei's Flurry of Blows ability would have to say they could Flurry with any weapon they have weapon training with.

...On topic, monks are fantastic, and very adaptable to whatever you want them to do. I've had several in games I've run, and the person playing them has always enjoyed it.

Dark Archive

*tries to herd cats* Come on guys, back on topic.

I really enjoy monks and I feel like they do not get the love they deserve. If you play on in PFS, you will eventually get that player who gives you the "Well, they can't do 1,000 points of damage like my (insert broken flavor of the month build), so they suck." But honestly, playing a monk can be a thousand times more fun than any of those builds because you can channel all of your favorite martial arts films while still being useful. (And besides, you will get that player, even if you are using the broken flavor of the month build. lol)

I have been toying with the idea of playing a Tetori monk for a while and suggest taking a look at it. Basically, the entire archetype translates into "As a full round action (or less at higher levels), choose an opponent. That opponent will do nothing for the rest of combat." Choose the right opponent and everyone loves you. (Protip: The guy in a dress hiding in the back.)

A bunch of the other archetypes are pretty cool as well. Drunken Master for infinity +1 ki points, Master of Many Styles for all kinds of fancy feats, Qinggong Monk if you want to do everything.

Dark Archive

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The ability to flurry with weapons in which you have Weapon Training is not an ability of Weaponmasters, it's an ability of a 6th level Sohei. It kicks in when they get Sohei Weapon Training at 6th level.

Fixed.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Koujow wrote:

*tries to herd cats* Come on guys, back on topic.

I really enjoy monks and I feel like they do not get the love they deserve. If you play on in PFS, you will eventually get that player who gives you the "Well, they can't do 1,000 points of damage like my (insert broken flavor of the month build), so they suck." But honestly, playing a monk can be a thousand times more fun than any of those builds because you can channel all of your favorite martial arts films while still being useful. (And besides, you will get that player, even if you are using the broken flavor of the month build. lol)

I have been toying with the idea of playing a Tetori monk for a while and suggest taking a look at it. Basically, the entire archetype translates into "As a full round action (or less at higher levels), choose an opponent. That opponent will do nothing for the rest of combat." Choose the right opponent and everyone loves you. (Protip: The guy in a dress hiding in the back.)

A bunch of the other archetypes are pretty cool as well. Drunken Master for infinity +1 ki points, Master of Many Styles for all kinds of fancy feats, Qinggong Monk if you want to do everything.

I think the monk has two issues, both of which have fixes in game.

The first is that the class chassis itself is all over the place. There's a bunch of these really flavorful abilities that don't sync up very well with other abilities in the class, and your primary option for dealing damage (Flurry) wants you to stand still while your other class features are telling you that you're supposed to be moving.

The second issue is that the monk needs different stats for pretty much everything he's supposed to be doing. Dexterity for skills and defense, Wisdom for ki abilities and defenses, Strength for accuracy and damage, Constitution because he expects to be involved in melee combat but only has a d8 hit die... He won't say no to Intilligence either, though it's not strictly necessary.

The nice thing is that the wealth of archetypes available, and the ability to blend the Qinggong archetype with any of the others, means that all of those issues can be resolved using nothing more than what's in the CRB.

My personal favorites are the Sensei and Maneuver Master, though Tetori, Zen Archer, Sohei, and a few others are all good as well. I didn't include Qinggong in the list because I honestly don't even really think of it as an archetype anymore; it's just the packet of mystical options monks should have had to begin with.

Sensei is my favorite because you can build a character with superb defenses, decent buffing, and the ability to target multiple defenses with his attacks, allowing him to be more adaptable and ready to confront a wider range of foes than most non-spellcasters. He also has some stat consolidation, so you can focus more of your ability points into Wisdom and let Strength slide while using Dexterity as a secondary stat instead of a primary. You're more mystical Miyagi and less Bruce Lee, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

I played a Tetori monk in PFS and had an absolute blast.

First your mobility via skills and monk speed lets you get where you need to go.

Second you have awesome defenses especially if built to have a high CMD making it difficult for maneuvers to land on you.

Third you can really boost your CMB for grapples with a few low level items and this can led you one hand grapple two opponents. In one fight I had two opponents pinned on my Tiefling Tetori. I released one as a free action, used his tail to draw a rope as a swift, maintained the grapple as a move action on the pinned target to tie it up (greater grapple) then regrappled the target I released as a standard, all at 6th level. The GM looked at me like huh???

Fourth get your hands on a Caster or even an Outsider with SLAs and you can just them down fast. Try casting that greater telport to get out with a concentration check of 10 + 7 + CMB. At level 6 my tetori had a +25 to CMB so the conc check was 42. Not easy for CR 7 - 9 mobs.

Ran an adventure with 3 monks once. Totally invalidated the last fight as we could easily ignore the terrain difficulties and the CC from the BBEG, was in a scenario that often TPKs parties and the monks turned it around.

Silver Crusade

Argus The Slayer wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The ability to flurry with weapons in which you have Weapon Training is not an ability of Weaponmasters, it's an ability of a 6th level Sohei. It kicks in when they get Sohei Weapon Training at 6th level.

Fixed.

Then you're going to have to 'fix' the actual words of the ability, which actually read:-

Quote:
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

You'd have to change the words to say, and mean, something else!

You'd have to change it from saying (and meaning), 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training,' to saying, 'A 6th level sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training,' which says, and means, something else!

Forgive me for going with what it actually says rather than what it doesn't.

Scarab Sages

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Then you're going to have to 'fix' the actual words of the ability, which actually read:-

Quote:
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

You'd have to change the words to say, and mean, something else!

You'd have to change it from saying (and meaning), 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training,' to saying, 'A 6th level sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training,' which says, and means, something else!

Forgive me for going with what it actually says rather than what it doesn't.

I fixed your bolding to include the relevant text. Until Sohei gets to 6th level, they DO NOT have a modified weapon training. They have the weapon training from their fighter class, that does not modify flurry of blows.

Sohei weapon training modifies Flurry of Blows at sixth level.

Fighter Weapon training is a separate ability.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
Until Sohei gets to 6th level, they DO NOT have a modified weapon training. They have the weapon training from their fighter class, that does not modify flurry of blows.

Sohei don't get 'modified' Weapon Training at all! They get Weapon Training, the exact same ability that fighters get.

But Sohei can flurry with those weapons in which they have Weapon Training.

Just like it says.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
But Sohei can flurry with those weapons in which they have Weapon Training.

They don't get that ability until 6th level.

Spoiler:
Quote:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.

As you can see, it says 'integrate all of the level's class abilities'. Not all of the level's class abilities and any similar abilities from future levels.


So, aren't rules fun?

Here's what I'm trying to play in PFS (had my first session last night)

a) stats: Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 5. Yes this is possible with a dwarf and a 20-pt buy. Weapon Finesse. Great defenses level 1, and not totally terrible at damage
b) Snake Style. a good mix of defensive and offensive options
c) at level 10 (yes, I know, not optimized for PFS), getting Medusa's Wrath.

Bad guy: Attack and miss
Me: Snake Fang hit you with an AoO (and use Stunning Fist, and the Tactician trait for 1/day boost to the AoO)
Bad guy: Ow, now I am stunned until the start of my next turn
Me: full attack flurry of blows Medusa's Wrath gg

d) at level 11 and up, taking the Duelist prestige class (for a better-than-normal unarmed damage bump and Int to AC) (again, not optimized for PFS, meh)

that's pretty much it. He's lived through one adventure so far!

Scarab Sages

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Until Sohei gets to 6th level, they DO NOT have a modified weapon training. They have the weapon training from their fighter class, that does not modify flurry of blows.

Sohei don't get 'modified' Weapon Training at all! They get Weapon Training, the exact same ability that fighters get.

But Sohei can flurry with those weapons in which they have Weapon Training.

Just like it says.

Fighter Weapon Training: wrote:

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.

A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Sohei Weapon Training wrote:
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

The Sohei weapon training feature is what modifies Weapon training to allow Flurry of blows. The modification to Flurry only appears in the Weapon Training of the Sohei. It is not a modification to Flurry of Blows such as the Monk of the Empty Hand or Zen Archer receive.

It is also not an ability of Fighter Weapon training. It is only provided by the Sohei weapon training feature obtained at Sohei 6.

Silver Crusade

If you look at the relevant sections having already made up your mind (either way), then you'll understand the words as supporting your position, whatever your position is. So a subjective viewpoint won't resolve the issue.

The only way to resolve it is by an objective point of view. So, objectively, there are two possible interpretations:-

A.) Sohei can use the Weapon Training differently

OR

B.) Sohei only get the ability to do this at 6th level

If A, then how would you word it? You could add a section on how Flurry of Blows is modified, but apart from using a lot more space it's not really flurry that's used differently, because flurry has always only been useable with a subset of weapons. What's different is how Sohei use Weapon Training, allowing them to combine it with Flurry (and Ki abilities). So, if A, then the place to put that information is in the Weapon Training entry. And what's the best way to say that? 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

This matches what is written, so A is not only possible, but very likely.

If B, then writing, 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' would be pointlessly ambiguous when there are so many simpler ways to write it that aren't ambiguous.

If B, then either Sohei Weapon Training is a different thing than the Weapon Training gained from fighter levels, or it's the same. If it's different then it's different. If it's the same then it's the same. If it's different then they wouldn't stack, it would have a different name, and it definintely would not casually say, 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training,' so it's definitely not different. Therefore it's the same.

And if it's the same then it's the same! And if it's the same then Weapon Training is Weapon Training, no matter where they get it from. And if that's the case, then 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' must mean that any Sohei uses Weapon Training with flurry, from an objective point of view.


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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
stuff

You're not convincing anyone, man. Stop the derail. Let it go.


Malachi, your last post ignores the much more likely possibility that the ability works as it says, and does not require any special interpretation. The current writing is not in any way ambiguous.

Plus, No ability in the game gives you benefits before you have it.

Anyone mention the martial artists Exploit Weakness yet? The ability to simply ignore any DR or hardness is pretty amazing, and fun. Who needs a key when you can just put your hand through a steel door like it was tissue paper?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
If you look at the relevant sections having already made up your mind (either way), then you'll understand the words as supporting your position, whatever your position is. So a subjective viewpoint won't resolve the issue.

Then by all means make a thread and request a FAQ answer. Until you get one clarifying that you are correct, don't bring your interpretation to my game and expect me to accept it as the rules.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
KrispyXIV wrote:
the ability works as it says, and does not require any special interpretation. The current writing is not in any way ambiguous.

I agree: the ability works as it says, does not require interpretation, and is in no way ambiguous:-

'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

Quote:
Plus, No ability in the game gives you benefits before you have it.

Agreed. The ability is Weapon Training. I have it.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
the ability works as it says, and does not require any special interpretation. The current writing is not in any way ambiguous.

I agree: the ability works as it says, does not require interpretation, and is in no way ambiguous:-

'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

Quote:
Plus, No ability in the game gives you benefits before you have it.
Agreed. The ability is Weapon Training. I have it.

If I told you my character was an Evangelist, can you tell whether or not I have bardic performance?

Just because they have the same name doesn't make them the same ability. You do not have the ability to flurry granted by the Sohei ability until you have that specific variant.


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At least two people, myself included, have agreed with Malachi's interpretation. So its not as clear as people are trying to make it out to be.


Nazerith wrote:
At least two people, myself included, have agreed with Malachi's interpretation. So its not as clear as people are trying to make it out to be.

By this logic, I could be a second level rogue, and select 'weapon training' as my rogue talent, and flurry with my focused weapon with 1 level of Sohei, right?

If I have 1 level of Foehammer (fighter) and 6 of Sohei, I can't choose any weapon group but hammers for my weapon training? It says it right there in the 5th level ability for Foehammer that they can't. If I hit level 12 Sohei I can't have a second weapon training because of this restriction? If the other text applies, at what rate does it improve?

Quote:
Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a foehammer must select hammers and does not gain weapon training with other groups, though his weapon training bonus improves by +1 every four levels after 5th.

The point is you gain the abilities your class lists, when they list it, not before, and not the descriptors for other classes at other levels, no matter how much they resemble one another.


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Kwauss wrote:
By this logic, I could be a second level rogue, and select 'weapon training' as my rogue talent, and flurry with my focused weapon with 1 level of Sohei, right?

No. Even if they have the same name this ability grants weapon focus. It does not point to the same rules set (Fighter Weapon Training). You can see a discussion about similar abilities being the same here, where they talk about channeling.

If the rogue talent granted Weapon Training per the Fighter Weapon Training ability, then you could.

Kwauss wrote:
If I have 1 level of Foehammer (fighter) and 6 of Sohei, I can't choose any weapon group but hammers for my weapon training? It says it right there in the 5th level ability for Foehammer that they can't. If I hit level 12 Sohei I can't have a second weapon training because of this restriction? If the other text applies, at what rate does it improve?

You are asking the wrong question. You need to answer this one first: If you were a lvl 5 Foehammer and gained Sohei level 6, what do you gain? Do you gain additional weapon training even though you clearly have a class feature that says you can't? If you don't can the sohei still flurry with hammers?

To be honest I don't know. I can see strong arguments both ways and I feel its a case where RAW and RAI are different. But whatever answer you pick should still hold true at Foehammer lvl 1.


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Sohei Weapon Mastery is a duck and Warrior Weapon Mastery is a duck. The Sohei can flurry using all ducks.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Nazerith wrote:
Sohei Weapon Mastery is a duck and Warrior Weapon Mastery is a duck. The Sohei can flurry using all ducks.

Not until the Sohei duck says he can.

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:
Nazerith wrote:
Sohei Weapon Mastery is a duck and Warrior Weapon Mastery is a duck. The Sohei can flurry using all ducks.
Not until the Sohei duck says he can.

The only 'until' in question is 'until he gets Weapon Training.'

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The only 'until' in question is 'until he gets Sohei Weapon Training.'

Let's take this discussion to its own thread.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

I am confused by your interpretation. Sohei weapon training says:

At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

Now at what point does the qualifier at the beginner of this paragraph stop applying? By your logic at 1st level a Sohei not only can flurry with weapons if he has weapon training but a Sohei/Ninja could spend points from his ki pool to make his mount invisible since:

At 4th level, a sohei may spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant his mount temporary hit points equal to twice his level for 1 hour per level. In addition, as long as the sohei and his mount are adjacent, including when mounted, the mount gains any of the following abilities the sohei possesses: AC bonus, diamond soul, evasion, high jump, improved evasion, ki strike (as long as the sohei has at least 1 point in his ki pool), perfect self, and still mind. When a sohei spends points from his ki pool, his mount gains the same benefits as the sohei.

Its his ki pool right? Not his sohei ki pool. So 1st level sohei lets you in addition to what listed at 1st level, where most people go to see what abilities they gain also can:

1. Flurry with weapons in which they have weapon training, even though its listed under a 6th level ability and not flurry which is gained at 1st level.

2. Provide their mount with the same abilities they gain when they spend a ki point even though this ability is listed under 4th level.

any other abilities you want to point out that they get at 1st level? Just curious because I have to go through all the classes and seen what else they get at first level that is written under 2nd, 3rd, 15th or 18th abilities for example.

Silver Crusade

Well spotted!

Combine 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' with 'When a sohei spends points from his ki pool, his mount gains the same benefits as the sohei,' and any Ki strike ability from any class that affects the Sohei, also affects his mount, as long as this applies to a weapon in which he has Weapon Training.

I can't think of any Ki Strike ability that affects a weapon at the same time it affects the Sohei himself, but if there is one then it will also affect his horse. I can't think of any manufactured weapons used by both horses and humans, but there may be one, I suppose.

Silver Crusade

Further to that:-

Quote:
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.

So a multi-class Sohei/ninja doesn't have two Ki pools, because 'Ki Pool' is the name of the class feature, and it is the same class feature possessed by two different classes, like Uncanny Dodge for barbarians and rogues, Evasion for rogues and monks, and Weapon Training for Sohei and fighters.

Since, 'When a sohei spends points from his ki pool, his mount gains the same benefits as the sohei,' then that is true no matter what class grants the Ki Pool.

Ki Pool is Ki Pool. The feat Extra Ki isn't two feats, one for monks and one for ninjas, it's one feat because Ki Pool is the same ability no matter which class grants it. And Weapon Training is the same ability no matter which class grants it.

For both Ki Pool and Weapon Training, the writers of both ninja and Sohei know full well that the abilities in question are the same as the ability granted by the other class, and knowing this they wrote it as they did.

It's the literal opposite of a 'twisted interpretation'. It does exactly what it says on the tin. And what it says is, 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.'

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

As long as she has a ki pool from her sohei levels first.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If it was the intent of the designers that multi-classed Sohei who had weapon training from a prior class could flurry with that weapon training at level one, they could easily have said so. They didn't. I would evaluate the claim that they can as an attempt to game the rules rather than play the game. In my game, I would disallow it. If I were GMing PFS, I would disallow it unless Mike Brock told me to allow it - but I'd still disagree with it.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
As long as she has a ki pool from her sohei levels first.

Why? All that is required is that she has a Ki Pool, and she has!

You're adding restrictions that aren't there.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
You're adding restrictions that aren't there.

Nope, you don't get the ability listed under the Sohei Ki Pool until you get the Sohei Ki Pool.

When do I count as having a class feature? wrote:
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).

The rules are that you only get abilities based on your level. You don't get to look ahead to what you may get in the future to determine how what you currently have works.

Silver Crusade

Ed Reppert wrote:
If it was the intent of the designers that multi-classed Sohei who had weapon training from a prior class could flurry with that weapon training at level one, they could easily have said so.

If that was the intent of the designers, then they would write what they wrote. If they intended otherwise, they wouldn't have named the ability that they know full well is from another class, or made them two separate abilities, or specified that it only applies to Weapon Training gained as a Sohei, or that they can only do this if they have six levels of Sohei, or in any way except what they wrote!

They definately intended Weapon Training from Sohei levels to be the exact same ability as the Weapon Training from fighter levels, just like they intended the Ki Pool from ninja levels to be the same ability as the Ki Pool from monk levels. And if it's the sane, then it's the same!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
If that was the intent of the designers, then they would write what they wrote.

Then please go to the other thread and FAQ the question so you can be proven right.


At first level a Sohei gets Flurry of blows.

Flurry of Blows:
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

This remains the same until level 6 when they get weapon training which states a modification to the flurry rules.

Weapon Training for a Sohei Monk:
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon.

This is supported by the FAQ for when classes get the listed abilities.

The weapon training of the monk is different from the weapon training of the Weapon Master Fighter.

Weapon Training for Weapon Master Fighhter:
At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Without the Sohei version of weapon training flurry of blows has not been modified and you cannot flurry with anything but your unarmed strikes.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

So back to the topic:

If you don't have Ultimate Combat, get it. The stye feats really allow some great flexibility between mobile, strength based, or defensive playstyles for any type of monk.

Also, as a minor suggestion, look into the Brawler playtest class from the Advanced Class Guide. It does an offensive monk very well outside of the lack of Ki points, but the ability to get feats on the fly allows you to be a great offensive support character (need to hold a target? boom, Improved Grapple! Need some burst damage? Let's get Power Attack in there). With a full Base Attack Bonus and the ability to wear light armor (just perfect for the Brawling property) and you'll be punching things all day long! In style.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
You're adding restrictions that aren't there.

Nope, you don't get the ability listed under the Sohei Ki Pool until you get the Sohei Ki Pool.

When do I count as having a class feature? wrote:
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
The rules are that you only get abilities based on your level. You don't get to look ahead to what you may get in the future to determine how what you currently have works.

There is no 'Sohei Ki Pool', there is just Ki Pool.

There is no 'Sohei Weapon Training', just Weapon Training.

The abilities are the same, but Sohei can use them differently. Using them differently is not part of the ability, but part of the Sohei.

Characters get Ki Pool when they get Ki Pool. They get Weapon Training when they get Weapon Training. Once you've got either, you don't care where they came from, just like you don't care where you got Uncanny Dodge or Evasion.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The abilities are the same

No, they really aren't.

Please FAQ it and stop derailing.


There's several different weapon training abilities. They each come with different clauses. I listed 2 that are different from the vanilla fighter weapon training.

If the sohei's flurry was modified at level 1 the rules would tell you this. Read the other archetypes that alter flurry. They list when and what.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It has been asserted that you aren't allowed to look at abilities you don't have, and that the Weapon Training gained by Sohei at 6th is a different thing than Weapon Training gained by fighters.

What does Weapon Training give you? +1 to attack and damage with certain weapons? Not according to 'Sohei Weapon Training':-

Quote:
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

There is nothing in there about +1 to attack and damage. So 'Sohei Weapon Training' does nothing? This is absurd!

Well, it does say, '...as the fighter class feature...'

So, if the 'Sohei Weapon Training' is a different thing than fighter Weapon Training, then a single class Sohei 6 doesn't have fighter weapon training. Yet he must be able to look at a feature that he doesn't have, or his own Weapon Training doesn't function. And if he can look at an ability he doesn't have, so can the Sohei 1/weaponmaster 3.

The only other possibility is the there is no such thing as 'Sohei Weapon Training', only Weapon Training. If that's the case, then the Sohei 1/weaponmaster 3 has it, and when Sohei have Weapon Training then they can flurry with those weapons.

Sohei with Weapon Training. Not some Sohei, not a subset of Sohei, not 6th level Sohei. Just 'Sohei with Weapon Training'.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If going from only Fighters, to Monks, then consider the Brawler.

It is a mesh of the two, which will make the transition easier.

Are you particular to any race(I suspect Dwarf)?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Dwarves make pretty cool monks.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dwarves make pretty cool monks.

Some of the best really, with solid monk stats and a weakness that the monk easily patches up.

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