Sleeper Hold


Advice


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Is Sleeper Hold (10th level feat for Monk) a trap feat? Even for a Manuever based Monk this feat seems a bit weak? What are your thoughts.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It follows a pretty standard format for abilities that totally negate a target in this game. You need to gamble on a critical success (equivalent to gambling on a critically failed save for maximum effect from spells that work this way), likely meaning that you want to combine this with other buffs or debuffs to maximize the chances of success, as much as you can. Also, like most abilities that do this sort of thing, it has the incapacitate trait and will not work to one shot over level targets.

Do you want a save or suck? This is how they work, here. If you don't, pick another feat.


Hmm thanks. Ya definitely a trap.

Grand Lodge

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Seems pretty consistent with the rest of the abilities in the game.


Slamy Mcbiteo wrote:
Seems pretty consistent with the rest of the abilities in the game.

Unfortunately


Its not a trap, its just for use on the weaker foes instead of the big bads. With how many hitpoints monsters can have doing grapple/ sleeperhold can be efficient.

Definately niche though and not something that you should build your whole character around.


Its an at will save or die. It is meant to pick of guards during an infiltration mission, not one shot a boss. Though the fact that it inflicts a debuff on a success means it is still worth using midfight on enemies your level or lower.

Grand Lodge

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Atalius wrote:
Slamy Mcbiteo wrote:
Seems pretty consistent with the rest of the abilities in the game.
Unfortunately

Or Fortunately...I guess it depends on your point of view :)


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It would be clearly unacceptable for the monk's at will 1 shot incapacitating option to not have the same points of failure as spells that fit in a similar niche.

Liberty's Edge

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I feel like lots of folks are really throwing around the term "Trap option" without any regard for what those really are.

This is a well-balanced feat if you ask me, clumsy 1 is a pretty great debuff on a success which isn't reasonably difficult to get. The Critical Success benefit is truly and remarkably powerful since you can do it all day every day and it's a general incapacitate, unlike many other features that straight up take someone out of combat like spells and focus powers which eat up limited resources.


A Monk should be able to get Legendary Athletics easily, meaning you'll have a high roll for the grapple checks. Flurry of Maneuvers will let you do both Grapples in one action, and Titan Wrestler will let you use Sleeper Hold on pretty much any creature in the game.

Want to put that Dragon in a Sleeper Hold? Incapacitation doesn't count as sleep, so it's not immune (though, it's only going to work on a monster of equal or lesser level, as stronger monsters fare one step better against Incapacitation effects).


Hmm you guys are actually making it sound like a pretty cool feat. What does this mean exactly:

Critical Success: The target falls unconscious for 1 minute, though it remains standing and doesn’t drop what it holds.

Will the enemy regain conciousness once it gets attacked? Or are you free to beat him down while he's unconscious for a minute?


Atalius wrote:

Hmm you guys are actually making it sound like a pretty cool feat. What does this mean exactly:

Critical Success: The target falls unconscious for 1 minute, though it remains standing and doesn’t drop what it holds.

Will the enemy regain conciousness once it gets attacked? Or are you free to beat him down while he's unconscious for a minute?

Unconscious wrote:

If you’re unconscious and have more than 1 Hit Point (typically because you are asleep or unconscious due to an effect), you wake up in one of the following ways. Each causes you to lose the unconscious condition.

You take damage, provided the damage doesn’t reduce you to 0 Hit Points. If the damage reduces you to 0 Hit Points, you remain unconscious and gain the dying condition as normal.
You receive healing, other than the natural healing you get from resting.
Someone shakes you awake with an Interact action.
There’s loud noise going on around you—though this isn’t automatic. At the start of your turn, you automatically attempt a Perception check against the noise’s DC (or the lowest DC if there is more than one noise), waking up if you succeed. If creatures are attempting to stay quiet around you, this Perception check uses their Stealth DCs. Some magical effects make you sleep so deeply that they don’t allow you to attempt this Perception check.
If you are simply asleep, the GM decides you wake up either because you have had a restful night’s sleep or something disrupted that rest.

So if you attack them or make noise or shake them they wake up. And are neither prone not disarmed.


Paradozen wrote:
So if you attack them or make noise or shake them they wake up. And are neither prone not disarmed.

Would the target fall if you used it on a flying foe? Could be a way to hit someone with falling damage and getting high enemies down to the ground, as a Monk with Quick Jump/Cloud Jump and a high movement speed could easily jump around 100 feet or so with like 2 actions (especially if you take options that increase your jumping distance).


this isn't even a save or die then. Even on a Crit success it's not fight ending.


eh, it’s actually more gm fiat. Most conditions that have a duration last for that duration. Sleep has similar wording but explicitly says you can wake up as normal. Sleeper hold doesn’t. So some gm’s will have victims wake at the drip of the hat, some will have it last 1 min...

I personally will not allow the noise wake up and the damage wake up but will have healing apply a counteract effect to the condition.


Atalius wrote:
this isn't even a save or die then. Even on a Crit success it's not fight ending.

You can take out and capture lone enemies with it. You can line up an easy crit with it. Sure, they'll wake up when the barbarian runs them through, but it's a bit late.


Atalius wrote:
this isn't even a save or die then. Even on a Crit success it's not fight ending.

depends how you see it, it's still a -6 to enemy AC by itself


Mewzard wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
So if you attack them or make noise or shake them they wake up. And are neither prone not disarmed.
Would the target fall if you used it on a flying foe? Could be a way to hit someone with falling damage and getting high enemies down to the ground, as a Monk with Quick Jump/Cloud Jump and a high movement speed could easily jump around 100 feet or so with like 2 actions (especially if you take options that increase your jumping distance).

In the flying rules somewhere it says you have to spend an action each round to hover in place, so at the absolute least when their turn comes around they drop. Trip also knocks them out of the sky (prone condition does) but this way they are unable to arrest the fall.

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