Beyond 20th

[Yrtalien]

So in the PF1 Core there were some short rules on ideas for carrying your game beyond 20th. Is there anything like that in PF2?

Basically Im running Age of Ashes and I have an idea for continuing the game but have no clue how to do that...

Rules, ideas, fancies welcome.

[Malk_Content]

Well the framework would be fairly simple to just extend. Everything about levelling up is pretty much the same going from 1 to 2 or 19 to 20. If you remove any class features just alternate skill and class feat gains.

[Kelseus]

Part of the reason P1 had the blerb about levels after 20 was likely to maintain a bit of compatibility with the Epic level rules for 3.5. (remember lots of things were kept in P1 that Paizo didn't really care for b/c of fears that being to far of a departure from 3.5 would cost them customers).

I could see a general feat that allows a PC to get Master (but not Legendary) in a weapon or armor category. Other than that it's just increase the numbers.

[Loreguard]

Another option, don't increase the numbers above 20. (so they aren't getting more powerful than the near-god creatures, just by leveling again a couple more times. They don't simply naturally get more spells per level, and higher DCs to make their spells inevitable, etc.

Instead, each level offer them a 'bonus' feats and other typical choices they would get. They get wider abilities, rather than flat out more powerful ones.

For instance every odd level you get to choose between a bonus General Feat, or a bonus racial feat. You also get a skill increase. (yes you can probably use it to get some more skills up to legendary)

Every even level, you get a bonus Class feat, as well as a bonus Skill feat.

Perhaps, to protect Paragon level abilities, you can't buy a second 20th level feat, until reaching equivalent of 30th or 40th level.

Note that for purposes of multiclass-archtypes, your additional levels can be used to calculate half your level to determine what level feats you can get from your secondary class. So after some additional 20 levels, when using multiclass feats to grab from the other class you could get a single 20th level feat from your secondary class.

If they want to feel like they are progressing (getting a little better numbers) You could potentially allow them to slowly advance their attributes over time. You could grant a single +1 (no halving necessary for higher attributes) to a single attribute, every level. However, you can't take the same attribute again until five levels after the last time you took it.

Another option, allow them to start advancing a second class as if dual-class, getting any new abilities that class would grant for an individual that was 1st level. This will seem strange, potentially getting new abilities that would be new to a low level individual, at a higher level character, but it would be an option. Especially if you advanced the lower levels quickly.

You could also, if not already using it, begin applying some of the Automatic Bonus Progression to the characters, and consider it an innate magical ability of the person when they choose it. (so any weapon they pick up and use could become equivalent to some level of rune on it, be it striking, or flaming, or otherwise, irrespective if it would otherwise meet prerequisites for it.

All these things would be ways to leverage existing rules to allow advancement on a tract past 20th level. A set of pseudo-mythic or epic option of sorts to pick from.

[Mewzard]

Mythic Proficiencies maybe? Level+10? New skill feats befitting god tier? There are options, it depends upon how complicated you want to make it.

[ikarinokami]

I would just let PCs take a new class or archetype.

[thenobledrake]

The edition in which I had the most success with keeping a campaign going until the story was well and truly finished, not stopping because of reaching "max level" or because the game just didn't mechanically function anymore, was AD&D 2nd edition before trying to add in what the DM's Option: High Level Campaigns book suggested.

The reason I mention that is because the approach taken to continued play was that all the important bits of game-math - the equivalents of proficiency levels in PF2 - stopped improving. You'd gain a tiny amount of HP each level, and improve or pick up new proficiencies/skills every few levels (but still be capped at the equivalent of Legendary proficiency), and that meant that play wouldn't break down any further than it already had by that stage of the game and you wouldn't need to have somehow even more dangerous threats than the world-shaking powers that a 20th level party is capable of handling.

This, and the spectacularly silly 3.x Epic Level Handbook, is why I have recommended similar approach for "let's keep going" in every case since that point. For PF2 this would look like continuing to gain HP, and almost nothing else - perhaps skill increases and skill feats would work for another 10 levels or so (though rogue characters may be needing additional game materials to find relevant options at that point), but no more of the other parts of character progression would work to continue without making a whole-new bestiary full of mega-demons and god-eating dragons (or any other sort of adversary to fight that would undermine the established campaign setting's power scale).

[TheGentlemanDM]

Mewzard wrote:

Mythic Proficiencies maybe? Level+10? New skill feats befitting god tier? There are options, it depends upon how complicated you want to make it.

I anticipate this will be how Mythic Tiers will work if we ever get them. Mythic is a proficiency above Legendary, and equals Level +10.

When you choose your Mythic Pathway, you get a floating proficiency boost to whatever that pathway cares about. So the Archmage gets a boost to their Arcane or Occult spellcasting proficiency, the Champion (needs a new name) gets a boost to their weapon proficiencies, the Guardian gets a boost to their defensive proficiencies, the Hierophant gets a boost to their Divine or Primal spell DC, etc.

As you gain Mythic tiers, you also unlock benefits like skill increases of up to mythic rank, saving throw increases of up to mythic rank, mythic feats, extra HP, etc.

When you reach the final Mythic tier, you get a second boost to your core proficiency, and if it's already Mythic, you get some absurd bonus instead.

We might even see Mythic done as archetypes. Insanely powerful archetypes, yes, but still rules that fit within the current framework of the game.

[Lanathar]

Kelseus wrote:

Part of the reason P1 had the blerb about levels after 20 was likely to maintain a bit of compatibility with the Epic level rules for 3.5. (remember lots of things were kept in P1 that Paizo didn't really care for b/c of fears that being to far of a departure from 3.5 would cost them customers).

I could see a general feat that allows a PC to get Master (but not Legendary) in a weapon or armor category. Other than that it's just increase the numbers.

Without wishing to derail do we know what sort of things paizo didn’t care for but kept?

Or is this partially a case of inferring it by seeing what was dropped for 2E?

[Kelseus]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

I anticipate this will be how Mythic Tiers will work if we ever get them. Mythic is a proficiency above Legendary, and equals Level +10.

When you choose your Mythic Pathway, you get a floating proficiency boost to whatever that pathway cares about. So the Archmage gets a boost to their Arcane or Occult spellcasting proficiency, the Champion (needs a new name) gets a boost to their weapon proficiencies, the Guardian gets a boost to their defensive proficiencies, the Hierophant gets a boost to their Divine or Primal spell DC, etc.

As you gain Mythic tiers, you also unlock benefits like skill increases of up to mythic rank, saving throw increases of up to mythic rank, mythic feats, extra HP, etc.

When you reach the final Mythic tier, you get a second boost to your core proficiency, and if it's already Mythic, you get some absurd bonus instead.

We might even see Mythic done as archetypes. Insanely powerful archetypes, yes, but still rules that fit within the current framework of the game.

I agree with this, if that is the way they choose to go that would be a good way to do it.

I especially like the Mythic as Archetypes idea.

[Ched Greyfell]

If I get to this spot, I'm gonna keep it simple.
Keep proficiency going up by level, as normal.
And add abilities they can choose from every other level or so. Such as an epic or mythic proficiency (+10) that can be added to a skill or save of their choice. Some slightly more powerful feat choices.
Just a fun way to keep it going. But where they have to make tough choices. Can't have it all at once.

[Castilliano]

Given the current cap of level 25 for monsters, I'd think level 30 would the monster cap (like in PF1), making level 25 a likely cap for PCs.
That is unless we go into facing divinities and universe level stuff, which I'm unsure the setting or system could handle well.

If there are only five levels left, and since the PF2 advancement is non-linear, I'd expect those levels to be packed. As in packed!
Paizo likely has an idea re: numbers because they needed those for monster design, so I won't venture there. That'd take analysis I'm not in the mood to do, even though I did more than enough in the playtest.
I do not know if there's room for a Mythic proficiency in the system numerically, nor for Mythic skill feats given how extreme some Legendary ones are. We'd definitely need more of those.

Anyway, I'm thinking a class feat & skill feat & skill every level. While some classes have several good 20th level feats, many don't have enough so we'd need Mythic class feats, ones that improved upon those. I'd expect a variant of Quickened for lower level spells, but at-will or using a focus point (which may be enough to open it up to higher level ones too).
Saves would have to increase somehow, as I doubt Expert would help the curve enough to hold even as the slope ramps up. Legendary may have to remain the top though.

There'd likely be more Apex items, perhaps ones that give two stats, maybe more though we'd be venturing into Rare or artifact territory.
Not sure what Fighters would get if the other martials advanced to Legendary offense. Hmm...

Yeah, Epic/Mythic levels may just have to be sub-classes like Archmage, etc. This would also work very well w/ future-proofing so (most) newer classes can participate too.

[Kelseus]

AC High/Medium/Low
16- 39/38/36
20- 45/44/42
24- 51/50/48

Saves
16- 30/28/25
20- 36/33/30
24- 42/38/36

Strikes
16- 32/30/25
20- 38/36/31
24- 44/42/36

AC goes up exactly 6 over both 4 level gaps, regardless of what track. So it would be expected to go to 57/56/54 by level 28, so level 30 should probably either 59/58/56 OR 60/59/57.

High saves also go up by 6 over 4 levels, but medium only goes up by 5. Low goes up by 5 from 16 to 20, but by 6 from 20 to 24. Level 28 should be 48/43/41, thus 30 at 51/45/43.

Strikes again have +6 over two 4 level gaps, with the exception of low from 20 to 24 only increasing by 5. Strikes should be at 30 52/50/44.

So a level 20 fighter should have a to hit of +38 (apex to strength +3 weapon). He hits even the High AC level 24 monster on a 13 or better. A master at weapons (+36) hits on a 15/14/12, H/M/L respectively. If my estimates are accurate, that means the to hit bonus needs to be at least +45. For that to hit to go up by 9 in 5 levels, it needs something more than just level increase. Give a +5 for level 25, +1 for a +4 weapon, you're still short by 3. Getting a proficiency boost to Legendary (or Mythic for Fighter) will help get you most of the way there.

The legendary spellcaster has a bonus to hit of +35 and DC of 45. Meaning her spells hit on a 16 or higher for the High AC, and failed save on 2/6/8, respectively. For the hypothetical level 30 monster they need to get their number up by 9 again. It become harder with the Spellcaster as they don't have item bonuses. Even on a bad save They need a DC of 52 or a 7 point jump. Meaning they need to find another +2 somewhere. For the high save to keep it as a failure only on a 1 or 2, they need a 54 or another +4.

TLDR; there needs to be a way to boost proficiency above your class max to stay competitive, even with increased item bonuses.

[Reziburno25]

Mythic Proficency(+10)
+4 potencty rune on weapon
+4 from level at 24 for fighter.
Then +7 from ability modifier(could throw in extra ability boosts).

That leave fighter on 25+10+4+7 = 45

For 24 level fighter to hit high 24 level ac they need roll 6 or higher,
They have 75% of success and 25% to crit.

But given that enemies past 20th level are given very nasty abilties seem useful.

Note: If for whatever reason 25th level fighter fighting high ac 30th level monster(which you shouldn't since get you killed for being 5 levels over the party) the fighter only hit on 14 or higher so 35% of success on each strike while 25% of success for other martials which seems decent.

[Castilliano]

One thing to remember is that attack numbers (for martials, at least) are directly tied to damage output.
There's a spike in damage at 19th w/ Major Striking, and before that it was at 15th (Greater WS & Greater Runes for energy damage) & 12th (Greater Striking).
So likely there'd be a Major Weapon Specialization in there 23rd-25th.
Doesn't look like there'd be room for +4dX weapons until after 25th, so there likely wouldn't be +4 weapons. Plus there'd be a slew of crafting/special material/equipment updates just to handle that. Might be simpler to add Epic Weapon Property Runes instead, and some artifacts.

Maybe Greater WS for the non-martials, but note going to Master w/ attacks would increase the bonus from each WS.

A streamlined system could lump it all into attack instead, like giving +2/epic level attack. If all proficiencies rose that fast, it'd likely balance if there were no other bonuses, though that might not be fun/fantastic enough to be called epic, being just numbers.

Access to rerolls, bonus Hero Points, and better action/MAP efficiency would likely be more enjoyable.

But yeah, which equipment would we want to see? That'll impact the class numbers as much as ever.

[Kelseus]

There are already several +4 weapon out there.
Blackaxe Level 25 +4 greater corrosive major striking obsidian greataxe
Serithtial level 23 intelligent +4 major striking holy bastard sword.
Axe of the Dwarven Lords level 26 +4 magor striking keen speed dwarven waraxe

They're all artifacts, but they are also not unreasonable for a level 20+ PC to have.

[Castilliano]

Thanks for pointing those out. So 23rd (at most) for a +4 weapon, huh.
If you can find a god to forge one for you!

The Axe at 26th seems too high even for a campaign finale at 20th, so I wonder what reasoning/computations/forecasting/foreshadowing went into that.

[Kelseus]

I would say that putting it at 26 is a clear communication to the GM that this is way too powerful of an item to give to your PCs without LOTS of forethought.

Yeah, the +4 rune should be a level 21 or 22 item, I'm leaning toward 22. That puts it high enough that a level 20 PC shouldn't get it, but it is completely reasonable for a 21 to find one and a 24 "should" have it.

[Reziburno25]

Note Potency runes always come after profiency rank up, so mythic profiency for skills be level 21-22 at min.