Was Permanency becoming a legal spell accidental?


Pathfinder Society

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

So Im looking through Divine Anthology and there is a legal subdomain that grants Permanency. Looking through the additional resources its not changed like in the case of Time Mystery. Im guessing this is just an error.

Scarab Sages 2/5

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PFS Guide wrote:
"The following spells found in the Core Rulebook are not legal for play and may never be used, found, purchased, or learned in any form by characters of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild: awaken, permanency, and reincarnate."

That just means it's a dead spot on the domain.

5/5 5/55/55/5

The spell doesn't become legal. You simply can't cast it, and you (currently) don't get a replacement.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The spell doesn't become legal. You simply can't cast it, and you (currently) don't get a replacement.

Actually, from the last time this conversation came up yes it does in fact make it legal. Admittedly, in this case its obvious that they omitted the replacement but still would not the first time they've banned something and then allowed it.

5/5 5/55/55/5

MadScientistWorking wrote:


Actually, from the last time this conversation came up yes it does in fact make it legal.

you're going to have to specify what "the last time" was.

This is not how additional resources work. They do not need to keep re-banning the spell every time a new arcane caster class comes out for example. Permanency is not "not legal unless allowed by another source" it's not legal.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

BigNorseWolf wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:


Actually, from the last time this conversation came up yes it does in fact make it legal.

you're going to have to specify what "the last time" was.

This is not how additional resources work. They do not need to keep re-banning the spell every time a new arcane caster class comes out for example. Permanency is not "not legal unless allowed by another source" it's not legal.

The fact that as I pointed out that there are legal archetypes and other materials that include banned material as a central tenant of the gimmick making it wishy washy as to whether or not something is permanently banned. As I said earlier it needs to be fixed as to be consistent because right now it isn't.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
This is not how additional resources work. They do not need to keep re-banning the spell every time a new arcane caster class comes out for example. Permanency is not "not legal unless allowed by another source" it's not legal.

This is how things work. Any other way lies madness.

5/5 5/55/55/5

MadScientistWorking wrote:


The fact that as I pointed out that there are legal archetypes and other materials that include banned material as a central tenant of the gimmick making it wishy washy as to whether or not something is permanently banned.

No.

What you told me was that actually (as if you were correcting me on something) that it was decided that if a legal archetype gave you something that wasn't legal that the archetype made it legal anyway. That is a completely different argument than what you have above

This has happened before
This has happened before and you got the illegal cookie

Are two VASTLY different arguments.

Absent any examples of that happening what I said stands: banned things are still banned. A backdoor to them just opens onto a brick wall. Having a way to the thing beyond having it on your class spell list is no different than having it on your class spell list: you still can't have it.

Quote:
As I said earlier it needs to be fixed as to be consistent because right now it isn't.

It needs to be fixed. It's a pretty low priority fix. You don't need to bump it up the ladder by making an argument for it doing something it doesn't. Right now someone at nearly beyond pfs levels simply doesn't get something. Thats all.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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My suspicion is that since I wrote those subdomains, I skimmed those six pages far too quickly during Additional Resources review and missed the addition of permanency. It should not be legal, and we'll just need to devise a good replacement. You're welcome to make suggestions.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

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John Compton wrote:
My suspicion is that since I wrote those subdomains, I skimmed those six pages far too quickly during Additional Resources review and missed the addition of permanency. It should not be legal, and we'll just need to devise a good replacement. You're welcome to make suggestions.

At first I was leaning towards fabricate but that might get a little exploitable with the rite domain power. Major creation would probably work well.

P.S. Christmas Day, John. Take a vacation!

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

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John Compton wrote:
You're welcome to make suggestions.

The spell that springs most readily to mind is commune.

-Core (no extra Additional Resources required)
-same level
-fits the theme of Rites
-requires a material component which can benefit from the subdomains power (as permanency did)
-fairly useful in PFS

Thoughts? ^_^

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Its the rites subdomain on page 26

Unhallow/hallow depending on whether you channel positive or negative energy

Wall of stone ?

Sovereign Court

Kalindlara wrote:
John Compton wrote:
You're welcome to make suggestions.

The spell that springs most readily to mind is commune.

-Core (no extra Additional Resources required)
-same level
-fits the theme of Rites
-requires a material component which can benefit from the subdomains power (as permanency did)
-fairly useful in PFS

Thoughts? ^_^

I second Commune as the replacement.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Kalindlara wrote:
John Compton wrote:
You're welcome to make suggestions.

The spell that springs most readily to mind is commune.

-Core (no extra Additional Resources required)
-same level
-fits the theme of Rites
-requires a material component which can benefit from the subdomains power (as permanency did)
-fairly useful in PFS

Ooh, I like this! I was looking at wizard (and not cleric) spells to replace the wizard-only permanency. But commune is a great fit.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

BigNorseWolf wrote:


It needs to be fixed. It's a pretty low priority fix. You don't need to bump it up the ladder by making an argument for it doing something it doesn't. Right now someone at nearly beyond pfs levels simply doesn't get something. Thats all.

Actually, it was more the general impression that I got that the section was kind of skimmed over or just an error in writing and not wanting to use a domain that looks legal but for reasons shouldn't have been legal. For example, the Glory domain grants you something so illegal that the book its from isn't in the additional resources (Mythic Adventures). I probably could have worded that better but Ive been suffering from low level migraines and headaches so Im not exactly coherent sometimes.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Commune is actually pretty good in PFS because having a written scenario gives the GM something to fall back on to answer questions.

"Are we likely to face evil outsiders in battle during this adventure?"

*GM looks at the remaining encounters in Day of the Devil Demon Dameon Qlippothmass edition*

"Yes? Okay guys, give me half an hour to fill in my other top-tier spell slots and then I'm good to go..."

The Exchange 3/5

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.

Silver Crusade

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Tallow wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.

Tell that to the GMs.

Scarab Sages 2/5

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Rysky wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.
Tell that to the GMs.

Barbarian casts greataxe and dispels Raise Dead.

4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere

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Lorewalker wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.
Tell that to the GMs.
Barbarian casts greataxe and dispels Raise Dead.

Wouldn't that count more as Spell Sunder?

Silver Crusade

Minna Hiltula wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.
Tell that to the GMs.
Barbarian casts greataxe and dispels Raise Dead.
Wouldn't that count more as Spell Sunder?

"Okay, that's it! All you lil bastards back into the ground!"


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Minna Hiltula wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.
Tell that to the GMs.
Barbarian casts greataxe and dispels Raise Dead.
Wouldn't that count more as Spell Sunder?

More like Life Disjunct, since we are talking about an instantaneous effect.

Silver Crusade

I have an idea for a cool weapon enchant now...

Liberty's Edge 3/5

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Minna Hiltula wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.
Tell that to the GMs.
Barbarian casts greataxe and dispels Raise Dead.
Wouldn't that count more as Spell Sunder?
More like Life Disjunct, since we are talking about an instantaneous effect.

It's obviously some kind of delayed Counterspell SLA.

Caster: "I roll Spellcraft to see what he's casting."
GM: "It's Raise Dead"
Barbarian: "Ok guys, I'm going to cast Greataxe and counter it next turn."

4/5

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Steven Stewart wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Minna Hiltula wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I think Raise Dead is a better option. It fits all the recommendations for Commune but with a price discount much more in line with Permanency.

I think Raise Dead is much more iconic and when you need it you really need it.

And it's permanent.
Tell that to the GMs.
Barbarian casts greataxe and dispels Raise Dead.
Wouldn't that count more as Spell Sunder?
More like Life Disjunct, since we are talking about an instantaneous effect.

It's obviously some kind of delayed Counterspell SLA.

Caster: "I roll Spellcraft to see what he's casting."
GM: "It's Raise Dead"
Barbarian: "Ok guys, I'm going to cast Greataxe and counter it next turn."

Cleric of Pharasma: "just charge in and cast it NOW and kill two birds with one stone (axe)." {counterspell by penetrating trauma}

4/5

Divine Anthology p28 wrote:
Rites subdomain. Component cost for casting permanency reduced by 20%. +1 to +3 CstrLvl for duration/dispelling for some spells 3+CL times per day. Replacement Domain Spells: 1st—sanctify corpse UM , 5th—permanency, 8th—binding.

Magic domain (the parent) has Domain Spells: 1st—identify, 2nd—magic mouth, 3rd—dispel magic, 4th—imbue with spell ability, 5th—spell resistance, 6th—antimagic field, 7th—spell turning, 8th—protection from spells, 9th—mage's disjunction.

3rd - Collaborative Thaumaturgy. Arcane Concordance would have been nice for Divine. Replaces Dispel Magic.
6th - Permanent Image. Replaces Antimagic Field.

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