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I want the same book for good and neutral upper planes, written by Todd Stewart.


Bellona wrote:
Hmmm. One of my players has a ratatosk druid of the Green Faith, so I hope that there'll be something interesting/useful for her here.

I'm really interested with the rules you use for ratatosk PC.


1) Great Beyond
2) Taldor
3) Nex
4) aquatic


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Well, if you choose Urgathoa, you HAVE TO take negative energy channeling. Only neutral cleric of neutral deities have the choice between positive and negative. (edit : ninja-ed)

Tell your DM about this before making any choice : Urgathoa is an evil deity and having a PC cleric of an evil deity could have a deep impact on your DM's campaign.

My advice : keep Pharasma, take positive energy and take the death domain + another domain of your choice. But be aware that you are not allowed to create an undead in Pharasma's church. There's an issue in the corerulebook between crunch and fluff with allowing death domain to clerics of Pharasma : "communicate with deads" should replace "animate deads" and "antilife shield" should replace "create undead" on the death domain bonus spells list (as written in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer and somewhere on this website paizo's blog).


Thanks, Dave Gross ! It was great to learn the past of Vencarlo and when he became Backjack.


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1. Planar Handbook / People of the Great Beyond (with archetypes, traits and feats for characters traveling or living on outer planes... Planescape, Planescape, Planescape... and Todd Stewart !)

2. People of Magic (Nex, Geb, Mana Waste)

3. Blood of Genie

4. Gnolls of Golarion (this one is lacking for a katapeshi campaign)

5. Seafolks of Golarion / Blood of the Ocean (gillmen, merfolks, sea elves)

And also : Tengus of Golarion, Scalykinds of Golarion (with lizardfolks and nagaji), People of the Lake, People of the Jungle...

+ we need traits somewhere for Absalom characters
+ I don't like the "slayer" companions, they feel "blank".


Does Elvanna's stats appear in this volume ?


Thank for your answer, Jim


No answer... :(


Jim, do you think this part of the AP could be played as a stand alone ?


Could this module be played before/during the Jackal's Price ?
Does it include hints for DMs to incorporate this module in Legacy of Fire ?


Sincubus : Krune is the runelord of sloth but also the high priest of Lissala, goddess of runes... so having all these words tattooed on his face make sense.


Wow ! Awesome ! I'm really impress by these pictures. Even if you don't know anything about them, you can guess which sins they embody just in looking at them.

I especially love Belimarius and Krune.


Thank a lot Todd ! Your answers are always helpful.

Todd Stewart wrote:


Hei Feng -> Maelstrom
Lao Shu Po -> Plane of Shadow
Sun Wukong -> Elysium
Yamatsumi -> Plane of Earth

I like all of this !

I haven't thought of the plane of shadow.

For Daikitsu or neutral nature gods : could we really imagine realms - with forests and crops - on the top of the spire near the Boneyard ?
It seems really strange for me (and for me : it's already the realms of the rilmani ;-)). I think I prefer your Nirvana proposal.

Here is James Jacobs' answer in the "ask James Jacobs thread" :

James Jacobs wrote:

We haven't yet assigned otherplanar realms to those deities, so I'm not ready to reveal those locations yet.

There are neutral planes and nature planes out there. The First World comes to mind immediately, but there are also plenty of other planes in the Great Beyond other than those we've listed so far.

Gorum lives in Elysium because it's more organized. He gets more attention in a realm where there's less craziness than the Maelstrom.

For the First World : I'm ok that it could be a home plane for Nalinivati and other nature gods, but not for Daikitsu (and her agriculture portfolio).

Todd Stewart wrote:
Nalinivati - same thing, probably with a hidden link between the domains, given the shared fertility aspect and rumors of connection between the two

I was thinking of something like this for Norgorber's realms : a sort of "linking realm" between Axis and Abaddon (Szuriel's realm)... a realm/plane in which lives the Yugoloths too (and called Gehenna ?). :oD


Hi James !

I copy here my questions from that topic : http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pb60?Dragon-Empires-Gods-and-the-Great-Beyond

I am trying to figure on which planes live the gods worshipped in Tian-Xia.

There are the easy ones :
- Fumeiyoshi --> Abaddon
- General Susumu --> Hell
- Irori --> Axis (but not mentioned in the Great Beyond)
- Kofusachi --> Elyseum
- Lady Nanbyo --> Abyss
- Qi Zhong --> Nirvana
- Shizuru --> Heaven
- Tsukiyo --> Heaven
- Yaezhing --> Hell

There are the ones on the "I am not sure" wing :
- Hei Feng --> boundary between the elemental planes of Air and Water ?
- Lao Shu Po --> Abaddon ? (it does not fit very well her portfolio)
- Sun Wukong --> Elyseum or Maelström ?
- Yamatsumi --> Earth ?

And there this 2 who are totally problematical for me :
- Daikitsu --> ???
- Nalinivati --> ???
That's my only real problem with the Great Beyond : there is neither a neutral plane (apart from the boneyard) nor a "nature plane". Would there be one of those, it would be fine.
So, where live the goddess of agriculture and the goddess of fertility ?

(and I'am still trying to figure why Gorum live in Elyseum and not in Maelström, considering his/its nature)


Thank for your answers.

The First World is a primal wild plane. For me agriculture is the opposite : it's a "controlled nature" so it doesn't fit Daikistu well.

"You could try posting these questions in the ask James Jacob thread."
You're right, I will also ask this there.


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I am a little late, but :
- Merry Christmas everyone !
- Please excuse my english

I am trying to figure on which planes live the gods worshipped in Tian-Xia.

There are the easy ones :
- Fumeiyoshi --> Abaddon
- General Susumu --> Hell
- Irori --> Axis (but not mentioned in the Great Beyond)
- Kofusachi --> Elyseum
- Lady Nanbyo --> Abyss
- Qi Zhong --> Nirvana
- Shizuru --> Heaven
- Tsukiyo --> Heaven
- Yaezhing --> Hell

There are the ones on the "I am not sure" wing :
- Hei Feng --> boundary between the elemental planes of Air and Water ?
- Lao Shu Po --> Abaddon ? (it does not fit very well her portfolio)
- Sun Wukong --> Elyseum or Maelström ?
- Yamatsumi --> Earth ?

And there this 2 who are totally problematical for me :
- Daikitsu --> ???
- Nalinivati --> ???
That's my only real problem with the Great Beyond : there is neither a neutral plane (apart from the boneyard) nor a "nature plane". Would there be one of those, it would be fine.
So, where live the goddess of agriculture and the goddess of fertility ?

(and I'am still trying to figure why Gorum live in Elyseum and not in Maelström, considering his/its nature)

I will be glad if anyone answer to my questions, but it will be greater to have an official answer from James Jacob, Todd Stewart or any other Pathfinder planar specialist.


1) Taldor (it is such an important country for the Inner Sea history and culture)
2) Planar stuff (with traits or archetypes... or a companion at last)
3) Cheliax
4) Nex (or Nex/Geb)
5) Casmaron gazetteer

And one day, I'd like to see a book on Azlant or/and the undersea cultures/races/cities


I love Golarion's gods !
I love Erastil !


Could someone list the 3 cavalier orders ?


1. Taldor
2. Nex (or Nex/geb)
3. planar AP


Taldor, Cheliax and Nex !


Impossible to order it from Amazon.fr. :-(


Thank for answering Todd !

Todd Stewart wrote:
I really want it to be its own thing, enjoyed on its own merits and not seen as a second rate Planescape. :)

I understand. And that also why I want to accept it as a whole. I just want to add some old features that miss me : Sigil, modrons, asgardian gods...

Todd Stewart wrote:
but yet if you stand atop Pharasma's Spire, at certain times the shadow of the city's torus falls across the landscape, luminous when it interacts with Groetus's shadow.

Nice ! I will keep that idea... and it gives me another :

The light in Sigil increase and decrease mysteriously, reproducing a night and day cycle. Could Groetus be the source of this light and so this cycle ? (if Groetus is in orbit around Sigil... or the contrary).

Todd Stewart wrote:
I'd include the Rilmani as a native race to the lands surrounding the Boneyard, with hints that they have hidden cities dwelling out there (similar to the 'they're everywhere but nowhere, like the concept of the Breach in China Mieville's 'The City and the City'). Or you could place their cities within cavernous niches within the sheer walls of the Spire itself (which already had hints of previous occupation, perhaps predating Pharasma herself, with empty niches carved into the stone up and down its height).

Exactly what I was thinking.

Todd Stewart wrote:
You could include the gatetowns either as towns on the edges of the top of the Spire, or districts in Axis itself, or towns drifting within the Maelstrom borderlands in loose constellation to Axis.

I prefer the latter : Maelstrom borderlands.

Todd Stewart wrote:

I love the 'loths. :D They would so totally not get along well if they lived on Abaddon with the daemons, so best to give them their own plane. They'd of course try to manipulate the daemons who in turn would try to eat them. :)

How about placing Gehenna as something like a moon, drifting in loose orbit as a plane between Hell and Axis, with portals found if you travel deep below Axis and then literally fall out of the sky towards on the Furnaces, or likewise in certain parts of Hell stepping into bottomless pits (like portals in Gehenna in 2e).

Not in Abaddon, ok, got it. I think I will go with this : an intermediary plane below Axis and above the Abyss, with Norgorber's domain on it. Would it be ok ?

It will explain why some say that Norgober's domain are in Axis' underground (something I don't like, because of Axis' alignment) and give a small place for the 'loths to exist.

Todd Stewart wrote:
Beautiful idea there, perhaps as the result of a protean chorus creating a beachhead into the Abyss, and something went terribly wrong, driving the chaos serpents insane, twisting them into now natives of Pandemonium (think linnorn versions of 3.x Howling Dragons). The wind is omnipresent, but the howling is both the wind and the screaming of the natives echoing -everywhere-.

Oh, I really love this idea ! Really ! How can we call this place ? This "Howling Maeström" ?

And now, I hope to see a "mad howling protean" in an official book of the campain setting line !

Todd Stewart wrote:
YSGARD : I'd include them as different regions in Elysium (the great beyond one), especially since I wasn't able to give as much detail to that plane as I would have liked.

Ok. But I think I will keep it as a separate plane in my homebrew games.

Todd Stewart wrote:
BEASTLANDS : I'd include it as a part or layer of either Nirvana or Elysium (great beyond planes).

Well, for me, nature = neutral. I guess some features of the Beastlands are now in Nirvana (idealized nature), others are in Elysium (no rule) and others are in the "new" First World (fairies...).

The more I think about this, the more I tell myself that I don't really need a Beastland...

Todd Stewart wrote:
the modrons could be axiomites merged into the corporeal forms of inevitables perhaps.

I like the idea again, but only if it happenned eons ago.

Just another question : Where could I put the egyptian gods ?

Thank again !


Dragon78 wrote:
Centaur Cavalier, reminds me of the old Shining Force games.

Exactly what I thought !

It's great !


Sorry King of Vrock, I was really busy last week.

I know and I am agree with everything you are saying.

However, I have imported Golarion gods in the Great Wheel for a long time but now I don't want to do that any longer.

2 major questions remain for me :

1. Could the Beastland be in the Fist World ? Feys are from this plane now, so does the Beastland have any longer an usefulness ?
I like the idea of animal-talking petitioners. But from the AP36's article, it seems that there are no normal animal in the First World. Are there ?

2. Could the Bleak Cabal have a High Quarter in Leng ? Reasonably ? Leng seem really hostile for me, but I don't know a lot about it.

And I still hope for a Todd Stewart's answer to all this. :o)


(Thread necromancy mode ON)

Could we expect to have one day the stats for hippocampus companion ?
Maybe in a blog post ? Maybe with an archetype for the hippocampus cavalry ? It has been done before with the hippogriffs and the Sable Company (01/06/11)

It will be great !


I have 2 questions.

Do all the crunch in this book will be in the ARG ?

Could we expect a Blood of Genies companion for the end of the years ?

I dont know if I will buy the Blood of Fiends/Blood of Angels/Blood of Genies series or if I will buy the ARG. It will be one or the other.


How that article will be different from the cyclops section in Giants Revisited ?


King of Vrock wrote:
Mechanus - Axis and Mechanus are so very similar. I would merely have the 64 cogs of Regulus be a temple district to Primus staffed by the Modrons.
Bluescale wrote:
Mechanus I reimagined as a great machine devouring the Maelstrom, created by the Axiomite Primus. In this version, Mechanus is always growing, as new gears are constantly created from raw chaos-stuff, the Modrons maintain the gears, and the Inevitables constantly fight back the proteans who seek to destroy it.

I was thinking of something like this :

First layer : Axis
Second layer / under the City : a realm of gears, with Regulus and modrons

Bluescale wrote:
Tartarus/Carceri I made a pocket dimension hidden in the Astral Plane, with only two entrances: Curst and a portal in Hades' divine domain.

Curst, Hades's realm and... the Pit of Gormuz on Golarion ?


Todd Stewart wrote:
I'll get you a full reply at length when I'm not slammed. :)

Great ! Thank !

King of Vrock wrote:


  • The Abyss - In the GB the Abyss appears as chasms and canyons among the other planes. I would treat this similarly to the PS Abyss' 1st layer, the plain of infinite portals.

  • Arborea - in the GB Elysium is a exact match for Arborea. Treat things like Mount Olympus as godly realms within the overall plane. Simple.

  • Limbo - The Maelstrom touches all the other planes and isn't very different until you travel a ways into it. This works a lot like the Hinterlands on the Outlands. Once you pass the outermost "ring" of another plane you enter the Cerulean Sea. Place your Githzerai metropoli and roving Slaad/Protean bands at your whim.
  • Ok with all this. I will let Mount Olympus in Arborea/Elysium.

    Quote:
    Pandemonium - Honestly as much as I love Pandemonium I think in Golarion that the Dark Tapestry and/or the Plain of Leng serve as better dark realms of madness and insanity. YMMV.

    Well, I don't know... Leng seems to me too aberrant and too hostile, even for the Bleak Cabal.... and I really need my Bleak Cabal. I guess I just want a place to put their Madhouse somewhere. But maybe I don't know enough about Leng to judge.

    King of Vrock wrote:
    Ysgard - One of the two PS planes of battle (along with Acheron). I'd actually treat Ysgard as the realm of Gorum, the floating landmasses islands off the coast of Elysium in the Cerulean Sea of the Maelstrom.

    As I want to add the pharanoic pantheon, the greek pantheon and the asgardian pantheon (like the one in Deities and Demigods D&D3), I think Ysgard is too specific to be in Elysium or the Maëlstrom and deserve is own plane. It has its very own identity : gods of battle and fertility only, Yggdasil, the Walhalla, Odin's palace, the ratatosks, bifrost... And I can imagine Nidhogg under the plane, in the Abyss, gnowing the roots.

    By the way, I really don't understand at all why Gorum is in Elysium in the GB. Really don't.

    King of Vrock wrote:
    The Beastlands, Bytopia, and Elysium - All three planes can be easily encompassed by Nirvana. If you need a way to seperate them use the River Oceanus as a metaphysical border and pathway to travel between them all as it is in Planescape.

    Well, I understand why Gygax made the Beastlands. He needed a realm for his idealized nature deity, Elhonna and the fairies court. Now, we have the First World for the fairies. And I want a wild nature plane and its animal petitioners to be true neutral (as oppose to Nirvana and its Guardinals/Agathions).

    So, the real question may be : does The Great Beyond lack a neutral nature plane ?

    King of Vrock wrote:
    In face the Bytopia should really BE Erastil's realm (civilization and wilderness).

    Totally agree. And as Erastil is now in Heaven, so I think we don't need a plane like this anymore.

    King of Vrock wrote:
    Arcadia - not to be confused with Golarions western continent, the land of ordered harmony is not a strong candidate for full planehood in the GB. Likely a realm of the gods Erastil and/or Torag or merely a portion of Heaven

    I'm agree that it doesn't deserve a plane. But... Where could I put the pharaonic Pantheon then ?

    King of Vrock wrote:
    As for Sigil (which I so eloquently wrote in my eaten post) I would still have the Cage appear above the spire on which the Boneyard rests or orbiting Groetus even. In any case it doesn't matter where it sits as the only way into or out of the city of doors is by portal.

    Idem.

    Thanks a lot !


    Oh yes !

    Could we expect any taldorian knight order in this one ?


    Slaadi were originaly made from proteans with the spawn stone. :)


    I understand because I was like this.

    No answer. Todd Stewart and James Jacob don't like me. :(


    I would like to share thoughts with Todd Stewart one this topic :)
    But I accept suggestions from everyone :)


    Thank !

    But you mostly have kept the Great Wheel's structure, you have just changed some names (Nirvana...)... like I was doing before purshasing the Great Beyond setting book.

    I am looking for a way to mix the Great Beyond'structure (maelström between others outer planes / no outlands / Axis / Boneyard /Abyss everywhere like a shell) with stuff like Mount Olympus, Ysgard, Heliopolis, Carceri, Regulus, Beastlands...

    I wonder if I make the good decisions doing this.
    I wonder if some planes not present in the Great Beyond are still necessary...

    Most of all, I am looking for a way to add Sigil, its factions and yugoloths (yugoloths are really differents from paizo's daemons).


    Hi everyone !

    First at all : Please excuse my english, I am a french native speaker. Please feel free to highlight my mistakes, because I want to improve my english skills.

    For many monks/years, I have rejected the all Great Beyond stuff. Not because of the ideas behind it, but because I am in love with Planescape. I discovered RPG with Planescape Torment and had the Planescape setting box before the Player Handbook (AD&D 2). I have a lot of original Planescape's material and all "planar books" of the third edition (manual of planes, planar handbook, book of exalted deeds, fiend folio, fiendish codex 1 & 2). For me, Planescape is jewel of originality and depth. So, for a long time, in my eyes, the Great Beyond has been a "Planescape of the poor", an unnecessary remake without the greatest stuffs protected by WotC's ID : Sigil (its Lady, and its factions...), githzeraï...

    But, after 10 years of DMing in Planescape stories and the (almost) end of my two and a half years Planescape campaign (centered around The Great Modron March anthology), I was starting to think differently about the way to tackle the multiverse with players. Obviously, for lots of players, Planescape is mixing really too much things. Too much pantheon, too much planes, too much layers, too much philosophies to handle... I like it but I now understand that it can be sdometimes indigestible for players. So, now, I think I need a Planescape-lite. Maybe it's the time for me to move on Golarion's Great Beyond ? It will make the thing easier for explaining planar stuff in a campaign on Golarion. But... dilemma... I don't want to discard all my old planescape material..!

    Several days ago, I finaly decided to purchase The Great Beyond Campaign Setting Book. Nice book, nice ideas in it. Much much easier to handle and to explain. Todd Stewart : thank you !
    I am still reading it, but some stuff in The Great Beyond quite bother me. And furthermore I really miss several Planescape features.
    So, I want advices/answers from Todd Stewart, James Jacob, or others, to put some aspects of Planescape in Golarion.

    - The most important thing for me is to keep SIGIL and its factions (I think I will always play in a pre-faction wars multiverse).
    Where can I put Sigil ? Above the Spire's end the Ossuary ?
    I don't really like the OUTLANDS and now, the MAESTROM is everywhere, functionnaly replacing it.
    Is the SPIRE a plane on her own ? With ossuary on the summit of the spire, rilmani cities on Spire's sides and Sigil above all of that ?
    Is it important to keep AXIS near the Spire ?

    And I want githzeraï cities (like Shra'kt'lor) and the spawn stone, with slaadi in my MAELSTROM. For me, slaadi lords used the stone to turn chaotic proteans in something more controlled.

    Lots of Planescape's planes disappear in the Great Beyond, like all with a mixed-alignment (Arcadia, Bytopia, Beastlands, Ysgard, Pandemonium, Carceri, Gehenna, Acheron, Outlands). But are they importants ?

    - ACHERON : It is a lawful neutral(-evil)plane of meaningless battles (or lost meanings)... lawful neutral(-evil), really ? Meaningless battles for me = Gorum --> chaos. Furthermore, Acheron has lost its main feature for me with the change of the orcs' aligment between 2nd and 3rd editions. So definitely, I can deal without this planes.

    - BYTOPIA : The traditionnal peaceful labouring rural philosophy behind Bytopia is found in Erastil faith, whose realm is in Heaven. Futhermore, Bytopia involve gnomes' gods realms but Golarion gnomes are very different from D&D classical gnomes... not really compatible. So, no need for Bytopia too.

    - GEHENNA is a different matter. Never loved this volcano planes but I think I can understand why it was created. I my opinion, I don't need a whole Gehenna plane. But I want yugoloths in my game - greedy and manipulative fiends, so I want a place where live yugoloths.
    I am surprised with the location of Norgorber's domain. Why is it under Axis ? Do you think a place like GEHENNA willl be great for Norgorber portfolio ? Could we imagine a GEHENNA featuring Yugoloths and Norgorber's domain as a part of ABADDON (= GRAYWASTE) ?

    - PANDEMONIUM : He is a plane of insanity. Ok, chaos, a bit evil and insanity... The Abyss fill most of the role I think, except for one important planescape feature that I want to keep : the Bleak Cabal (and its Madhouse). Can we imagine the PANDEMONIUM not like a plane, but as a one of the big Abyssal chasm, a border between the maelström and the entrance of the Abyss. A plane owned by the Abyss but nor really tainted by evil (but really tainted by chaos) ?

    - YSGARD : I want to add it to the Great Beyond. I want to keep olympian, norse and egyptian pantheon alongside with golarion's one. And I want an Yggdrasil !

    - ARCADIA : Arcadia is now a term to designate a Golarion's continent. How confusing ! --> I will banish it (as I will banish the term Elysium : for me Elysium/Nirvana is Nirvana, and Arborea/Elysium is Arborea).
    I want to keep the Harmonium training camp and Heliopolis, the egyptian pantheon'god. That's all. I thing I will create a plane named HELIOPOLIS.

    - CARCERI (= TARTARUS) : I like the idea of a jail plane. I want to have a place with evil titans and gehreleths/demondands that is not the open Abyss. For me, Rovagug's dead vault is even a part of CARCERI.Is it ok ?

    - BEASTLANDS : A plane with petitioner with animals form, planes of nature, away from everything. I am hesitating to keep it. Does Gozreh can lived there ? If I do, it will be a neutral plane, and not a good and chaotic one as in the 2nde edition.

    Furthermore, I want to add Regulus, the modrons' realm, under Axis. In this case, is it better to keep Axis near the spire or to make a whole plane with Axis+Regulus far from it?

    Last question, I want to add MOUNT OLYMPUS, with the greek pantheon. But... where ? In the mountains of Arborea/Elysium (like in Planescape)or do I create an OLYMPUS PLANE ?

    So, it will had to the Great Beyond :
    - HELIOPOLIS
    - YSGARD
    - CARCERI
    - BEASTLANDS ?
    - OLYMPUS ?


    I want a Great Beyond Companion, with several planar archetypes and some info on some planar mortal races communities living there. :)


    See Inner Sea Magic :)


    Twigjacks and Hippocampus are in bestiary 2, Incubus are in bestiary 3 :)


    Quote:
    2 Campaign Settings

    ???

    Quote:
    Also, I only know of one Campaign Setting book with Golarion East Asian content; The Dragon Empires. Please point me in the right direction if there is another one because I will purchase it almost sight unseen.

    Idem


    Maybe Carnival of Tears ?


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    I don't understand why there is no love for Taldor. I mean, it is such an important country in Golarion's whole history. For me, it is a pillar in the setting. Cheliax, Lastwall, Rostland... many things in Avistan come from Taldor and their colonization.

    And all we have is a 32-sheets-only companion (+ Cassomir in Cities of Golarion)... Is there any plan to develop that country ? If not an AP, at least a campaign setting book...


    1) Taldor (expanded) far above my others choices
    2) Nex (or a Nex/Geb book)
    3) Cheliax (expanded)
    4) Druma
    5) Mendev/Worldwound

    And a Casmaron Primer would be great...


    Tim4488 wrote:
    I like the Hyena Lover and Gnoll Slaver a lot. Nicely done.

    Thank !


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    Well... I think I just need the future playtest of the ARG ! :-)

    My problem with this VoodooMike's guide is how he handle the stats bonus.

    Especially that :
    - switch a racial stat bonus to the other category. (4 points)

    If I go with : +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA and don't count points for this, it seems balanced for me.

    If I ignore the count for stats points :
    +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA (0 points)
    +1 to natural AC (4 points)
    immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura (0 point)
    darkvision (2 points)
    --> 6 points.

    Maybe can we consider that those bonus stat help specialization and so deserve some points... IMO, it do not deserves more that 2 points.

    So :

    Gnoll racial traits (friendly PC version) :
    - +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA (2 points)
    - +1 to natural AC (4 points)
    - immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura (0 point)
    - darkvision (2 points)
    - +2 survival (1 point)
    - +2 perception (1 point)

    Of course, with the +2 in WIS, it's +3 to both skill in reality but I don't think it's a big problem.

    I don't like to give them +2 in intimidation. That a social skill (and charisma dependent) after all.

    For scent, I like the idea but, by core, no gnoll in Golarion have that. I think I will respect that, because special powers is not something like stats or skills : every gnoll have the same special powers but not every gnoll have the same stat and the same skills.
    But we can allow them to take the keen scent feat from the APG instead.[

    But we can also make alternative racial traits :

    Hyena lover/ Dire hyena rider :
    - +2 handle animal (with hyena and dire hyena only)
    - +2 ride (with dire hyena only)
    replace : the +2 perception bonus

    Social gnoll / Gnoll slaver
    - intimidating prowess feat
    - +2 intimidation
    - +2 appraise (in order to determine slaves' value only)
    - +2 bluff (to sell slaves only)
    replace : +2 perception, +2 survival, +1 to natural AC


    Tim4488 wrote:
    For the record, I was using this thread as a guide.

    Thank for the link. Very useful guide. I will chek my homebrew no psionic githzerai version with it.

    James Jacobs wrote:

    To a certain extent, this (and similar questions) will be answered and addressed in the upcoming book, "Advanced Race Guide."

    The big thing that's kind of overpowering about gnolls is the fact that they have racial hit dice, which more or less gives them a 1 level "head start" over zero-HD races. If you want to strip that out and just go with their core abilities, you'd get the following:

    - +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma
    - +1 to natural AC
    - darkvision
    - immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura

    ...I think that'll be fine, honestly. The natural armor bonus might not seem like that huge a deal, but it's more than ANY core race gets currently, so in a party composed of core races, your gnoll basically gets a free +1 boost to his AC over anything else. That's actually pretty significant. And those penalties to Int and Cha are painful if you play, say, a bard or a wizard or a sorcerer or whatever, but if you play a barbarian or fighter or ranger or even a rogue or something else, the strength bonus is pretty nice. Overall, I think that whole combo gets it quite nicely up on par with the core races—this version of the gnoll is actually BETTER in certain examples (barbarian in particular) than any core race.

    Immunity to pugwampi unluck is mostly irrelevant for balance factor, by the way. It's certainly not as bad-ass as elven immunity to ghoul paralysis, and even THAT's not major enough for us to mention in the elf traits in the core rulebook, after all.

    As for "flavorless" I disagree. We've done plenty to give gnolls more flavor—check out Pathfinder #19 and Dark Markets in particular.

    Thank for the reply ! By flavorless, I mean from a "rules" point of view. My problem is that there is nothing in their stats coming from their society. No hatred, no intimidating, no things like crafty for the kobolds, greed for the dwarves or obsessive for the gnomes.

    And a +4 bonus in a stat is not something I like very much...

    But I really love what Paizo have done with the gnoll in PF 19 (I have Dark Markets but I haven't read it yet). And that's why I want it to be playable!

    (NB : According to VoodooMike's guide, gnolls with these stats will be built with 18 points. Outch !)


    As I'am running a Planescape campaign, I allow the following in my games :
    - Spells and prestige classes from the Manual of Planes
    - Spells, feats, prestige classes from the Book of Exalted Deeds
    - Spells, prestiges classes and some races (bariaur and blarel) from the Planar Handbook
    - Feats and prestige classes from the 2 Fiendish Codex
    - Justiciar (prestige class) from Complete Warrior (great for Mercykiller character) and Dervish

    No other horrible Complete stuff


    Thank for the reply !

    Tim4488 wrote:

    Here's what I'm using:

    +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int
    Darkvision
    +2 Intimidate, Perception
    Scent
    +2 Initiative

    You could just as easily use -2 Cha instead of -2 Int, though. It's not a straight conversion by any means, but I feel like it keeps the flavor of gnolls pretty well. Feel free to swap Scent for +1 Natural Armor if you prefer.

    Hummmmm... +2 in WIS, why not... A race good for perception and survival. A race more instinctive and nature-wise than "brainiac". It fit well with the concept.

    The scent power is a really nice idea for a hyena-like-super-predator like a gnoll. It is strange that core gnolls do not have it (furthermore, hyena have it).

    However, I think +2 perception + 1 bonus from WIS + scent is a bit too much.
    And I don't like very much the +2 on initiative. I will keep the +1 to natural AC instead.

    So :
    - +2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 INT (+2 CON, -2 CHA)
    - Darkvision
    - Scent
    - Immunity to pugwampis' unluck aura
    - +1 to natural AC

    For the skill bonus... Intimidate or survival ?


    Any suggestion ?

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