Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.


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Sunder Spell is an easier check than dispel magic since you get your strength modifier. On the downside you have to make a CMB vs CMD+5 check before you can effect a spell on a creature. Two maneuver checks to get one effect is not so good.

You can select the spell to sunder, but you're still making two checks. And, of course, you can't make sunder attempts at range unless you're multiclassed with an archer fighter. And it's once per rage. And it's three rage powers into a chain, and the first thing in that chain makes you unable to be a willing target for things like heal spells.

It's good, but not much better than the spell unless you abuse rage cycling, which usually requires a lame oracle dip and eats your fast movement bonus. It's also not really clear. Are summoned monsters spells on creatures? Is an eidolon a summoned monster? RAW clashes with the fluff when using it to remove detrimental effects from your companions. It appears it wasn't entirely thought out. I expect an errata at some point.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
*wonders how his player's 3.5 monk would have been affected by a PF upgrade*

He'd be chanting his Obdme pahm all the way to the bank. In pretty much all respects the Pathfinder conversion is a good and balanced boost.


Hey, AM BARBARIAN.

I got a Dwarf Buddy Two Weapon Warrior (Waraxe/Shield) with an AC in the 60's.

Now I've sparred this bloody turtle and can't make a dent (dwarves are not my FE and I was out of Instant Enemy spells)

I got 20pp says you can't take him either.
You in?


STR Ranger wrote:

Hey, AM BARBARIAN.

I got a Dwarf Buddy Two Weapon Warrior (Waraxe/Shield) with an AC in the 60's.

Now I've sparred this bloody turtle and can't make a dent (dwarves are not my FE and I was out of Instant Enemy spells)

I got 20pp says you can't take him either.
You in?

Bah...you picked out the one fighter type that can actually win against a barbarian at melee. They just stand there and take all that +attack that barbarians hand out and convert to AC with their ridiculousness combat expertise. Wait out the rage and then beat down the barbarian. It's the only way to counter a Come and get Me Barbarian build.

I think the better build against them is to go with an intimidation build and get them panicked. Its tough to do but I think over all it might be easier than trying to get past that AC.


11 for Celestial chain +5
8 for dex
7 for heavy shield
5 for amulet
5 for ring
2 for shield spec and dodge
1 for ioun stone
39 AC

5 for full attacking
6 for combat expertise
11 more if he gets to swing.

50 total

What am I missing for bonuses on the fighter?


Andy Ferguson wrote:

11 for Celestial chain +5

8 for dex
7 for heavy shield
5 for amulet
5 for ring
2 for shield spec and dodge
1 for ioun stone
39 AC

5 for full attacking
6 for combat expertise
11 more if he gets to swing.

50 total

What am I missing for bonuses on the fighter?

Not that I can see...other than AC starting at 10 so you hit the 60 mark and you could throw in a fighting defensively for another +2AC. Also...a barbarian is probably handing you that +6 from combat reflexes for free as they would be raging (-2AC) and using Come and get me (-4AC).


STR Ranger wrote:

Hey, AM BARBARIAN.

I got a Dwarf Buddy Two Weapon Warrior (Waraxe/Shield) with an AC in the 60's.

Now I've sparred this bloody turtle and can't make a dent (dwarves are not my FE and I was out of Instant Enemy spells)

I got 20pp says you can't take him either.
You in?

Did you try starting with a rage cycle of Str surge and Sunder to dismantle his AC. Sunder is a great combat maneuver for a barbarian considering the new spell sunder. Improved sunder + Str Surge + Lucerne hammer (Add in some adamantine for fun) would give you a +26 to a sunder check. With that kind of bump you only fail on a 1 to destroy that celestial armor/full plate/shield in the first round.


This:

Two Weapon Warrior:
AC= Highest Fighter AC TWW.
10 (base)
+9 Shield (+5 lge shield & Shield Focus + Greater Shield Focus)
+5 Deflection (+5 ring)
+5 Natural (+5 amulet)
+15 Armor (+5 Mithral breast+ tatami do limbs)
+5 Dex (20 Dex)
+1 Insight (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)
+5 (Defending shield spikes)
55 Total
60 With Two weapon defense
+ 6 (Combat Expertise)= 66

His Attack:
BAB20 +2(Gtr Wpn Fcs)+ 4(Two Weapon Training) -2TWF+ 5(STR) +3(Belt of Physical Perfection) +5(wpn enhancement) -6(PA) +2(Duelist Gloves) 32/28/23/18 (plus another +35 for boots of speed)

Secondary: 20+ 4(Two Wpn train)+2(Gloves)+ 5(Str)+3 (Belt)+ 6(+5Bashing Large shield)-6(PA)+ 34/29/24

A core fighter can also do it:

Core Build:
10 (base)
+9 Shield (+5 large shield & Shield Focus + Greater Shield Focus)
+5 Deflection (+5 ring)
+5 Natural (+5 amulet)
+14 Armor (+5 full plate)
+5 Dex (20 Dex)
+1 Insight (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)
+5 (Defending shield spikes)
59 Total.
+ 6 (Combat Expertise)= 65


Lab_Rat wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

Hey, AM BARBARIAN.

I got a Dwarf Buddy Two Weapon Warrior (Waraxe/Shield) with an AC in the 60's.

Now I've sparred this bloody turtle and can't make a dent (dwarves are not my FE and I was out of Instant Enemy spells)

I got 20pp says you can't take him either.
You in?

Did you try starting with a rage cycle of Str surge and Sunder to dismantle his AC. Sunder is a great combat maneuver for a barbarian considering the new spell sunder. Improved sunder + Str Surge + Lucerne hammer (Add in some adamantine for fun) would give you a +26 to a sunder check. With that kind of bump you only fail on a 1 to destroy that celestial armor/full plate/shield in the first round.

was Talking in Char as STR RANGER (TWF), and was after AM BARBARIAN's no doubt hilarious response.

That however IS good tactics (I believe my Invulnerable Rager build could do that one)


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STR Ranger wrote:

Hey, AM BARBARIAN.

I got a Dwarf Buddy Two Weapon Warrior (Waraxe/Shield) with an AC in the 60's.

Now I've sparred this bloody turtle and can't make a dent (dwarves are not my FE and I was out of Instant Enemy spells)

I got 20pp says you can't take him either.
You in?

BARBARIAN OPENING WITH RIDE BY FROM MIDAIR FROM BATTY BAT.

BARBARIAN USING STRENGTH SURGE SUNDER ON ARMOR FOR ATTACK, AM THEN USE SMASHER POWER. 0 HARDNESS ARMOR SMASH FAST UNDER BARBARIAN LANCE.

THEN BARBARIAM AM BREAK SISSY SHIELD. PROBABLY NOT BREAK WEAPON, NOT NEED TO.

WHERE AM BARBARIAN MONEY?


*hands AM BARBARIAN his money and orders the first round of booze*

Well, I guess the AC fighter argument is over.
You DID let the dwarf live, right?

(actually, if your lance isadamantine, is smasher needed?)


STR Ranger wrote:

*hands AM BARBARIAN his money and orders the first round of booze*

Well, I guess the AC fighter argument is over.
You DID let the dwarf live, right?

(actually, if your lance isadamantine, is smasher needed?)

DWARF FINE. MAYBE TWO NEGATIVE LEVELS, BUT HE CAN WALK OFF.

MAGICAL SHINEY EQUIPS AM HAVING BIGGER HARDNESS, BARBARIAN USE SMASHER JUST IN CASE.


Spells say..."Nice rules. Follow mine." The game is all about the rules and the casters play by their own. A fighter can be the best at hitting something with a sharp thing but the caster is just warping all the most basic assumptions of the game.

If you are a fighter then you can't fly without spending a bunch of money on equipment. You can't see long distances or teleport. You can't know how magic something is, or read a mind, or know if somebody is good or evil off the bat.

Your weapons are your life. A fighter has dumped a considerable amount of time and money into getting good weapons and if they are broken or they have the magic taken away then that fighter is screwed.

Also, the game is resource management and most of the game's spells are about getting more resources. The fighter is hurt but he doesn't get to heal a ton of damage. He's got to sleep, or throw a day of his life out of the window to get HP.

If a caster sleeps he gets a very important thing, all the spells back. If a fighter sleeps he gets to make himself supremely vulnerable for 10 percent of his HP.

There are other things, too. Spells not only magically remove a character from having to worry about most resources, they also bypass most resources. A character has a certain amount of spells and HP... until they blow a save or get whacked with a ray or no save spell that completely removes them from the combat.


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CASTY MUST HAVE MISSED MEMO. THREAD AM OVER, BARBARIAN AM WINNER.

SORRY. SMASH AM MOST VERSATILE COMMODITY IN VOLATILE ECONOMIC CLIMATE.


AM BARBARIAN wrote:

CASTY MUST HAVE MISSED MEMO. THREAD AM OVER, BARBARIAN AM WINNER.

SORRY. SMASH AM MOST VERSATILE COMMODITY IN VOLATILE ECONOMIC CLIMATE.

This thread can never die, barbarian.

It is the graveyard of a thousand ruined discussions.

It shall remain active — forever — as a prison for those who summon the spectre of caster-martial disparity by uttering its dark portents one time too many.

Though you, barbarian, may triumph in a single battle against it, it was here long before you were born and it shall remain when you are long forgotten.

Give to the Glory of the C-M D. thread! Offer your life!


BARBARIANS LIVE ON TOO. GLORY BE TO SQUISHY CASTER SMASHERS.

ALL HEAR OF GLORY AND WOMENS. ALL WANT BE BARBARIAN. BARBARIAN IS HORDE.

WORLD SOON BE ALL BARBARIAN. THREAD SOON BE ALL BARBARIANS.

THREAD BEEN SUNDERED. THREAD IS OVER.


Roakar Am Too wrote:
THREAD BEEN SUNDERED. THREAD IS OVER.

That which is sundered can be mended, barbarian, but I'm certain you know little of that.


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Am Wizard wrote:
Roakar Am Too wrote:
THREAD BEEN SUNDERED. THREAD IS OVER.
That which is sundered can be mended, barbarian, but I'm certain you know little of that.

MENDING AM ONLY WORKING ON DAMAGED ITEMS, AND AM REMOVING BROKEN.

THAT AM MEANING OBJECT MUST HAVE HPS REMAINING.

BARBARIAN NOT KNOW ABOUT OTHER BARBARIAN, BUT BARBARIAN AM NEVER LEAVE OBJECT HE SUNDER WITH ANY HPS. AM ALWAYS DESTROYING. CANNOT MEND.

BARBARIAN BARELY READ, AND EVEN BARBARIAN AM KNOW THAT.


AM BARBARIAN wrote:
Am Wizard wrote:
Roakar Am Too wrote:
THREAD BEEN SUNDERED. THREAD IS OVER.
That which is sundered can be mended, barbarian, but I'm certain you know little of that.

MENDING AM ONLY WORKING ON DAMAGED ITEMS, AND AM REMOVING BROKEN.

THAT AM MEANING OBJECT MUST HAVE HPS REMAINING.

BARBARIAN NOT KNOW ABOUT OTHER BARBARIAN, BUT BARBARIAN AM NEVER LEAVE OBJECT HE SUNDER WITH ANY HPS. AM ALWAYS DESTROYING. CANNOT MEND.

BARBARIAN BARELY READ, AND EVEN BARBARIAN AM KNOW THAT.

The cleric casts Fabricate to create thread. WHERE IS AM BARBARIANS GOD NOW!?!


Fabricate is a standard action, sunder can be part of an attack, therefore a 20th level barbarian is equal to 4 clerics.


TarkXT wrote:
The cleric casts Fabricate to create thread. WHERE IS AM BARBARIANS GOD NOW!?!

TRIBE CLERIC AM KEEPING BARBARIAN GOD SAFE. BARBARIAN SUNDERING NOT-TRIBE GOD "ARODEN". NOT-TRIBE CLERIC AM HAVE NO GOD, NOT-TRIBE CLERIC AM CASTING NO FABRICATE. BARBARIAN VICTORY.


The Boundry is set. We melee classes will no longer tolerate the annoying whining of classes who require CONSTANT protection to survive the smallest tussle, let alone large scale battle.

From now on all martials will be screening any prospective party members before allowing any caster into the party.

The test will be simple. Applicants will be given no prep time.

1. You must be able to take a (non-lethal) full attack to the face, without going unconscious.
2. Any animal friends must at least be medium size furballs of death.
3. You must be able to Bench Press your own Bodyweight (minimum 10 times)
4. You may be a magic user, however you must be able to successfully cast while AM BARBARIAN readies an action to give you 1 uppercut.
5. Any (female) full casters may bypass steps 1-4, IF you:
have an affinity for Men with STR scores higher than thier IQ,
Big Sharp Metal Objects,
are hot,
and are looking for a (usually) faithful partner, nothing too exclusive though.


Dugald Paladinson wrote:


4. You may be a magic user, however you must be able to successfully cast while AM BARBARIAN readies an action to give you 1 uppercut.

Oh come on that is simply not fair.

He'll break his hand!


Does my Sorcerer have to be in his own body when AM BARBARIAN haymakers him?


Dugald Paladinson wrote:

The Boundry is set. We melee classes will no longer tolerate the annoying whining of classes who require CONSTANT protection to survive the smallest tussle, let alone large scale battle.

From now on all martials will be screening any prospective party members before allowing any caster into the party.

The test will be simple. Applicants will be given no prep time.

1. You must be able to take a (non-lethal) full attack to the face, without going unconscious.
2. Any animal friends must at least be medium size furballs of death.
3. You must be able to Bench Press your own Bodyweight (minimum 10 times)
4. You may be a magic user, however you must be able to successfully cast while AM BARBARIAN readies an action to give you 1 uppercut.
5. Any (female) full casters may bypass steps 1-4, IF you:
have an affinity for Men with STR scores higher than thier IQ,
Big Sharp Metal Objects,
are hot,
and are looking for a (usually) faithful partner, nothing too exclusive though.

1. Biggest (only) nonlethal martial weapon is the sap. 1d6. Add 4 for strength. 20s in starting stats are a sure sign of munchkins. Full attack is one hit. You are starting your party at level one, yes?

Max first hitdie. Add 2 for a reasonable 14 con. Add one for favored class bonus. 1d6+4<9 2/3 of the time. 2/3 arcanists and full divine casters with 14 con have 11 HP and can't fail.

2. So witches are out. That's short sighted since they're more compatible with the relentless encounters the martial mob prefers, but it's your standard. Wizards can bond a ring.

3. I'd estimate that's not more than 14 strength. Bench pressing should be about as hard as doing pull ups and a reasonably in shape adult can do a few of those, though perhaps not 10. Most partial casters and many divine casters are likely to do that. Small characters weigh a lot less and could probably pull it off at 10 strength.

4. Technically any caster can pass this by taking a five foot step to cast.

5. Why all the hate for female partial casters?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
LilithsThrall wrote:

Does my Sorcerer have to be in his own body when AM BARBARIAN haymakers him?

Will he be in his own body while adventuring?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:

Does my Sorcerer have to be in his own body when AM BARBARIAN haymakers him?

Will he be in his own body while adventuring?

Not anymore than he has to.


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LilithsThrall wrote:

Does my Sorcerer have to be in his own body when AM BARBARIAN haymakers him?

IF AM NOT IN BODY, BARBARIAN AM SPELL SUNDER HAYMAKER. SUDDENLY CASTY NOT BEING THERE ANYMORE.

...THAT CAUSE PROBLEM TOO.


AM BARBARIAN wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:

Does my Sorcerer have to be in his own body when AM BARBARIAN haymakers him?

IF AM NOT IN BODY, BARBARIAN AM SPELL SUNDER HAYMAKER. SUDDENLY CASTY NOT BEING THERE ANYMORE.

...THAT CAUSE PROBLEM TOO.

This could be an issue if the caster is currently inhabiting the body of the tarrasque.


Atarlost wrote:


1. Biggest (only) nonlethal martial weapon is the sap. 1d6. Add 4 for strength. 20s in starting stats are a sure sign of munchkins. Full attack is one hit. You are starting your party at level one, yes?
Max first hitdie. Add 2 for a reasonable 14 con. Add one for favored class bonus. 1d6+4<9 2/3 of the time. 2/3 arcanists and full divine casters with 14 con have 11 HP and can't fail.

2. So witches are out. That's short sighted since they're more compatible with the relentless encounters the martial mob prefers, but it's your standard. Wizards can bond a ring.

3. I'd estimate that's not more than 14 strength. Bench pressing should be about as hard as doing pull ups and a reasonably in shape adult can do a few of those, though perhaps not 10. Most partial casters and many divine casters are likely to do that. Small characters weigh a lot less and could probably pull it off at 10 strength.

4. Technically any caster can pass this by taking a five foot step to cast.

5. Why all the hate on female casters?

1. Any worshipper of Sarenrae has the trait which let's you use lethal weapons for non-lethal at no penalty. Therefore I will (non-lethal) Greatsword full attack your face. If you are 1. Still Conscious, 2. Are not crying, you pass this one.

2. Dude Witches are out. Hot chick witches bypass this test if they satisfy no 5.

3. You're right that Magai, Inquisitors, Bards and Clerics will be able to do this. We have no problem with them. They wear armor and don't wet themselves when a goblins surround them.

4. Step awaymeans you're a wuss, so you fail. A REAL HERO can take an uppercut and not spill his drink.

5. WE have no hate on female casters. Kyra and Leoni can hang out with me anytime.

Dude casters, must meet all selection criteria, before joining the party (and pay for thier joining keg).
We're confident these tests can only.be good for adventures at large.
We'll no longer need to constantly save their bony a$$ when an enemy gets adjacent, thus we can focus on important warrior stuff, like who can get the biggest kill count.

Those nerdy, weakling, wet their pants types will have to either hit the gym and get their braces off OR stay in school, studying and gaining no XP.


Dugald Paladinson wrote:
5. WE have no hate on female casters. Kyra and Leoni can hang out with me anytime.

Dahar, they be all specialized in enchantment, as far as I be concerned.

Dahar...


STR Ranger wrote:

*hands AM BARBARIAN his money and orders the first round of booze*

Well, I guess the AC fighter argument is over.
You DID let the dwarf live, right?

(actually, if your lance isadamantine, is smasher needed?)

Nah..swoard and board fighter got CMD vs sunder 70+ so its kinda impossible to sunder him.Only on natural roll of 20 which is kinda bad chance:)Also,phalanx soldier is immune to sunder :D


Leongorance wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

*hands AM BARBARIAN his money and orders the first round of booze*

Well, I guess the AC fighter argument is over.
You DID let the dwarf live, right?

(actually, if your lance isadamantine, is smasher needed?)

Nah..swoard and board fighter got CMD vs sunder 70+ so its kinda impossible to sunder him.Only on natural roll of 20 which is kinda bad chance:)Also,phalanx soldier is immune to sunder :D

I would like to see that stat'ed out. Having a hard time seeing that big of a number.

Also the phalanx fighter's shield is the only thing immune to sunder. So you leave him there with only a shield.


Lab_Rat wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

*hands AM BARBARIAN his money and orders the first round of booze*

Well, I guess the AC fighter argument is over.
You DID let the dwarf live, right?

(actually, if your lance isadamantine, is smasher needed?)

Nah..swoard and board fighter got CMD vs sunder 70+ so its kinda impossible to sunder him.Only on natural roll of 20 which is kinda bad chance:)Also,phalanx soldier is immune to sunder :D

I would like to see that stat'ed out. Having a hard time seeing that big of a number.

Also the phalanx fighter's shield is the only thing immune to sunder. So you leave him there with only a shield.

human fighter favored class variant add +1 to 2 separate maneuvers per level so that's +20 + BAB=20 Plus stats +10 base + dueling weapon's bonus is 54+stats + deflection +dodge


BARBARIAN NOT VERY GOOD AT MATHS, BUT HERE AM BARBARIAN MATH.

20 BAB AM NORMAL. THEN HAVING 20>25(LEVELS)>31(YAY BELT)>36(BARBARIAN READ BOOKS)>44 (BARBARIAN HAVE ANGER ISSUES) STRENGTH AM NOTHER PLUS 17.

THAT AM 37.

THEN STRENGTH SURGE. THAT AM +57. PLUS +5 FURIOUS WEAPON, THAT AM +64. WITH IMPROVED SUNDER, TOTAL AM +66. IF RECKLESS ASSAULT, AM +72.

EVEN IF CMD 70 SOMEHOW, BARBARIAN CLEARLY COME OUT ON TOP.

AM MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.


AM BARBARIAN at 20 (which is when the PS would have those defenses) would have a +mid 60 to his sunder check...which means he has over 50-50 to do it and can try it every round.

Also, the PS's SHIELD is immune to sunder. The armor or his weapon is not. Removing the armor still is a serious hit to the PS's AC to bring him back into hitable range and then sundering his weapon will also ding his AC down some more.


So we have now solidified the barbarian as king of the smashy smash. Let no door, wall, castle, turtled out fighter, or spell stand before his way.


Hmmmm write me exact number of barbarian CMB against sunder,and then i will write you exactly number of fighter CMD against it.


Leongorance wrote:
Hmmmm write me exact number of barbarian CMB against sunder,and then i will write you exactly number of fighter CMD against it.

My barbarian build:

BAB = 20
Str (20) = 5
Str (lvl and book) = 5
Belt (Str) = 3
Rage = 4
+5 Furious Adamantine Lucern Hammer = 7 (+2 if medium/heavy armor)
Improved + Greater sunder = 4
Str Surge = 20
Charge = 2

Total = +70 (+72 if medium/heavy armor) before rolling

Edit: Higher than Am Barbarian but he does not have greater sunder or invest any lvl stat bumps in Str (which would make up for the +5 difference).


Well, It looks like all Barbs are gonna need sunder now.
Better make sure the nerdy wuss with the familiar preps lots of spells to repair broken loot..


Lab_Rat wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
Hmmmm write me exact number of barbarian CMB against sunder,and then i will write you exactly number of fighter CMD against it.

My barbarian build:

BAB = 20
Str (20) = 5
Str (lvl and book) = 5
Belt (Str) = 3
Rage = 4
+5 Furious Adamantine Lucern Hammer = 7 (+2 if medium/heavy armor)
Improved + Greater sunder = 4
Str Surge = 20
Charge = 2

Total = +70 (+72 if medium/heavy armor) before rolling

Edit: Higher than Am Barbarian but he does not have greater sunder or invest any lvl stat bumps in Str (which would make up for the +5 difference).

First of all,how you think you will be able to sunder adamantine full plate?You DONT ignore his hardiness as adamantine weapon ignore hardiness only LESS than 20.So you WONT ignore full plate hardiness.

"Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness LESS than 20."
"Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20."

So good luck in sundering that full plate in one hit:)

Well this isnt important anymore,but i will give you some maths:)

Human favored class +20,bab+20,base+10,str+13,dex+5,weapon training+4,gloves of dueling+2 on weapon training+4 vs sunder atempts(so it is +6),shield specialization+4,imp sunder+2,ring of protection+5,dodge+1,haste+1,expertise+6=97 CMD vs sunder attempts:)

Not sure natural 20 is always success for combat maneuvers.If it is,it will be hit,if not,you need 27 to hit.So even if you(if 20 is hit ofcourse)in 5% of situations roll natural 20,you will still make some not very great dmg.

Cheers:)


Leongorance wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
Hmmmm write me exact number of barbarian CMB against sunder,and then i will write you exactly number of fighter CMD against it.

My barbarian build:

BAB = 20
Str (20) = 5
Str (lvl and book) = 5
Belt (Str) = 3
Rage = 4
+5 Furious Adamantine Lucern Hammer = 7 (+2 if medium/heavy armor)
Improved + Greater sunder = 4
Str Surge = 20
Charge = 2

Total = +70 (+72 if medium/heavy armor) before rolling

Edit: Higher than Am Barbarian but he does not have greater sunder or invest any lvl stat bumps in Str (which would make up for the +5 difference).

First of all,how you think you will be able to sunder adamantine full plate?You DONT ignore his hardiness as adamantine weapon ignore hardiness only LESS than 20.So you WONT ignore full plate hardiness.

"Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness LESS than 20."
"Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20."

So good luck in sundering that full plate in one hit:)

Next time before you blow a fuse like that re-read my post. No where did I say anything about by-passing hardness. No-where. I know how adamantine works.


Leongorance wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
Hmmmm write me exact number of barbarian CMB against sunder,and then i will write you exactly number of fighter CMD against it.

My barbarian build:

BAB = 20
Str (20) = 5
Str (lvl and book) = 5
Belt (Str) = 3
Rage = 4
+5 Furious Adamantine Lucern Hammer = 7 (+2 if medium/heavy armor)
Improved + Greater sunder = 4
Str Surge = 20
Charge = 2

Total = +70 (+72 if medium/heavy armor) before rolling

Edit: Higher than Am Barbarian but he does not have greater sunder or invest any lvl stat bumps in Str (which would make up for the +5 difference).

Human favored class +20,bab+20,base+10,str+13,dex+5,weapon training+4,gloves of dueling+2 on weapon training+4 vs sunder atempts(so it is +6),shield specialization+4,imp sunder+2,ring of protection+5,dodge+1,haste+1,expertise+6=97 CMD vs sunder attempts:)

Not sure natural 20 is always success for combat maneuvers.If it is,it will be hit,if not,you need 27 to hit.So even if you(if 20 is hit ofcourse)in 5% of situations roll natural 20,you will still make some not very great dmg.

Cheers:)

Not bad. Just a few corrections. Weapon training only applies to the weapon. So if I sunder the full plate that does not count. Other than that not bad at all.

So here is my breakdown of your CMD vs my CMB:
Note: Initiative is a 60:40 here. I have a better Dex bonus than you (although yours may actually be higher than +5). Lets just say its even.

If you go first and activate combat expertise you have a CMD of 91 against my sunder of your full plate. This is against my +73 (forgot about haste). So I have a 15% chance to sunder. (not to great)

If I go first you don't get combat expertise and have a CMD of 85 against my sunder of your full plate. Again, against my +73 I now have a 40% chance to sunder (a little better).

All in all, that a pretty sturdy turtle you have.


So is the result of all this saying that casters need turtle fighters to protect them from barbarians? I'm not sure what this has to do with C-M D?


Dragonsong wrote:
So is the result of all this saying that casters need turtle fighters to protect them from barbarians? I'm not sure what this has to do with C-M D?

Ambiguity is like this thread's phylactery.

The "problem" under discussion in C-M D is whatever people feel like griping about at the time.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
So is the result of all this saying that casters need turtle fighters to protect them from barbarians? I'm not sure what this has to do with C-M D?

Ambiguity is like this thread's phylactery.

The "problem" under discussion in C-M D is whatever people feel like griping about at the time.

Fair enough!


Outside the realm of who can beat whom (which really doesn't reflect CMD in its entirety) I think it mostly crops up with group Playstyles and how much leeway they give to spells.

Several above posters have commented/pointed out/called people misreading the intent and full extent of what certain spells can do.

If a GM/Group is willing to do a lot of hand waving and let the 8 Charisma Wizard cast Charm Person and get away with murder then it will favor casters. Even though Charm Person requires a charisma roll EVERY time you try to get the person to do something they normally wouldn't do, which means the 10 Charisma guard has the EDGE

And odds are if you are Charming them, they are NOT inclined to take bribes and let you into the keep's dungeon to 'talk' to a prisoner without approval of the guard captain.

But depending on how the GM handles that kind of social power with spells can really influence how useful the social rogue/paladin/intimidating fighter/etc can be.

The same goes for Utility spells. If the adventure requires you to get around the world ten times in 12 days, then yeah, the wizard with Teleport is probably going to be rock tastic. But if the group isn't on a time crunch like that, riding a flight of Dire Bats from place to place and then catching a boat probably works just fine. And frankly, having the dire bats (or some other form of reliable transportation) is probably better in most circumstances as Teleport is frankly overkill and carries some heavy restrictions on where you can wind up.

I've always seen magic as the quick fix bandage solution to most problem. With a little money and a little more time, skill and labor can build a solid lasting one. Then if you REALLY want to throw time and money at it, Magic builds the most solid ones as you get those enchanted items/protections whatever.

On paper the casters seem rather powerful, but in practice, I really have to agree with the AM BARBARIAN FINANCIAL INSTITUTE'S VIEW ON THE ECONOMY OF ACTION.

Sometimes the best solution to a problem is being able to charge 60 feet while drawing your weapon and making 4 high damage attacks at whatever you stop next to rather than dinking around with buffs and other set up effects for a few rounds.


Lab_Rat wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:
Leongorance wrote:
Hmmmm write me exact number of barbarian CMB against sunder,and then i will write you exactly number of fighter CMD against it.

My barbarian build:

BAB = 20
Str (20) = 5
Str (lvl and book) = 5
Belt (Str) = 3
Rage = 4
+5 Furious Adamantine Lucern Hammer = 7 (+2 if medium/heavy armor)
Improved + Greater sunder = 4
Str Surge = 20
Charge = 2

Total = +70 (+72 if medium/heavy armor) before rolling

Edit: Higher than Am Barbarian but he does not have greater sunder or invest any lvl stat bumps in Str (which would make up for the +5 difference).

First of all,how you think you will be able to sunder adamantine full plate?You DONT ignore his hardiness as adamantine weapon ignore hardiness only LESS than 20.So you WONT ignore full plate hardiness.

"Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness LESS than 20."
"Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20."

So good luck in sundering that full plate in one hit:)

Next time before you blow a fuse like that re-read my post. No where did I say anything about by-passing hardness. No-where. I know how adamantine works.

Well i dont know what was point of discussion than?If from start you knew that you cannot break armor than whats point?Its the end,fighter wins.

By table,+5 adamantine full plate have hardiness of 30 and 140 hit points,so its kinda absurd even to try to break it.

Also as far as i know STR surge is once per rage?If so,if you fail to destroy it on first try(and 100% you will,as you wont have even nealry have enough dmg output,even with PA,and PA reduce CMB as well) you will have 20 less CMB for sunder attempts and its the end.

So conclusion.Sundering swoard and board fighters is not gonna do it for barb.

Cheers!


At 20th level (17th really) the barbarian can end and start a new rage every round, so his Once a rage powers become once a round powers as long as he is not living by the grace of his Rage HP alone (where ending the rage would kill him before he can turn it back on)

Before that, there are ways to rage cycle before that. And If nothing else the barbarian can rage 1 round, end rage and be defensive for 2 rounds until fatigue ends, then rerage and smash it.

There is a Rage power that makes the armor's hardness 0 regardless of its material so just need to do 140 HP....which really isn't that hard with a double damage mounted lance charge with the 0 hardness. A few hits and BAM. The fighter obviously isn't a ranged damage machine otherwise he wouldn't be the shield turtle of doom so the barbarian can survive a few rounds to do the charges needed.


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BARBARIAN AM USING SMASHER RAGE POWER, IT BYPASS HARDNESS. ADAMANTINE APPROXIMATELY AS HARD AS PAPER TO BARBARIAN.

BARBARIAN ALSO FIGURE SQUISHY ARMORED GUY AM USING HASTEYS.

NOTE BARBARIAN AM NOT INCLUDE HASTEYS BECAUSE THIS AM BUFF EVERYONE AM HAVING. BARBARIAN ASSUME FIGHTY KNEW THIS, BARBARIAN AM SADLY NOT INTRIGUED TO SEE AM NOT KNOWING. BARBARIAN ROUND AM LOOK SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

AM CHARGE IN FROM HUGE DISTANCE AWAY ON BATTY BAT.

AM FULL ROUND ACTION.

AM USE SMASHER ON FIRST ACTION.

BARBARIAN AM ALREADY HAVING +74 AFTER GREATER SUNDER. AM NOT SURE IF FEETS AM OPEN, BARBARIAN AM THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

THEN BARBARIAN AM GET ADDITIONAL +1 FROM HASTYS. AM +75. AFTER THAT, BARBARIAN AM NOTING HE AM SUNDER ARMOR, NOT WEAPON. AM APPROXIMATELY 4+2+4 TOO HIGH DUE TO GLOVE THINGYS. BONUS AM NOT 97, AM 87. LEARN TO MATHS, FIGHTY AM WORSE AT IT THAN BARBARIAN. AM FAIRLY SAD. IF BARBARIAN AM GO FIRST (BARBARIAN CHARGE RADIUS 360 FEET DUE TO DIVING BATTY BAT OF AWESOME, SO LIKELY TO GO FIRST AND BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WIN INITIATIVE) AM BECOME 81. IF FIGHTY GO FIRST, BARBARIAN JUST SMASH CASTYS. FIGHTY AM NOT GOOD AT GETTING IN BATTY BAT WAY.

MOVING ON, BARBARIAN AM THEN CHARGING. THIS AM MAKING BARBARIAN BONUS AT +77. WHEN BARBARIAN MOVE FIRST, THIS AM 85% CHANCE OF HIT. WHEN BARBARIAN NOT MOVE FIRST, BARBARIAN USE BATTY BAT TO GET WHERE BARBARIAN NEED GO TO MOVE FIRST. BARBARIAN AM UNFAIR. ON CHARGING RAGELANCEPOUNCE, BARBARIAN AM DEALING APPROXIMATELY...

3D8+87 PER HIT. MATH AM REALLY FAST, ONLY ASSUME +14 STR AND +7 FROM WEAPON, WITH MINIMAL BONUS. SMASHER AM IGNORE ITEM HARDNESS, THUS AM DEALING AVERAGE OF 100.5 DAMAGE TO ADAMANTINE ARMOR WITHOUT EVEN POWER ATTACKING REGARDLESS OF ADAMANTINENESS OF ARMOR. BARBARIAN AM PUNCH THROUGH TWO AND HALF INCHES OF ADAMANTINE NO PROBLEM. AM LANCE THAT PIERCE HEAVENS.

ALSO, POUNCE AM STILL LEAVING BARBARIAN WITH REMAINING FOUR ATTACKS. AND FIGHTY JUST LOST 14 AC AT LEAST.

IS PITY, BUT EVEN CRAZY FIGHTY HAVE 85% CHANCE OF LOSS TO BARBARIAN.

RECCOMEND INVESTMENT IN BARBARIAN FINANCIAL INSTITUTE, AM BEST CLASS THERE IS.

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