Lance and Power Attack

[Poor Wandering One]

So has there been a solid answer on this issue? It seems a common enough question going by the number of threads discussing it but I do not see a consensus?

Issue. Does the lance when used in one hand while in a mounted charge use the one handed or two handed rules for Power Attack?

I tend to fall in the "it's a two handed weapon with an odd ability" camp but I must admit that is mainly to keep from having to keep seperate attack listings. But I can see value in both arguments.
The GMG and the Bestiaries seem to go either way depending on the writers fancy. So has any word come from on high?

[Mike Schneider]

You only get PAx3 for two-handed use. (Weapon type is irrelevant -- you can PA -2/+6 with a longsword in two hands at BAB4.)

[David Thomassen]

Mike, the Feat can be read in another way Power Attack"...This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls"

The Lance is a two-handed weapon that can be wielded one-handed while riding.

If Power Attack had said "making an attack with a weapon wielded in two hands (excluding Light Weapons)" then there would be less wiggle room [What do One-handed weapons with Exotic Proficiencies to make them considered 'light' count as]{My guess for the Sawtooth Sabre is that it would still count as one-handed as "you treat the weapon as if it were a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting"}

[Fozbek]

David Thomassen is correct as far as RAW. RAI is more ambiguous, but lances are two-handed weapons regardless of whether you're riding a mount or not. They just have a special rule that allows you to wield them in one hand while mounted. They're still two-handed weapons. This is exactly the same principle as characters with automatic proficiency in their deity's weapon getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency for bastard swords.

[Jiggy]

Fozbek wrote:

David Thomassen is correct as far as RAW.

Yes.

Fozbek wrote:

This is exactly the same principle as characters with automatic proficiency in their deity's weapon getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency for bastard swords.

No, it's really not the same thing at all. But I guess that's beside the point. I'm in a nitpicky mood.

[Fozbek]

Jiggy wrote:

Fozbek wrote:

This is exactly the same principle as characters with automatic proficiency in their deity's weapon getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency for bastard swords.

No, it's really not the same thing at all. But I guess that's beside the point. I'm in a nitpicky mood.

Sure it is: you look at the category the weapon falls under, not what additional bonuses it has in the text. The category is what matters. Same principle.

[Jiggy]

Fozbek wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Fozbek wrote:

This is exactly the same principle as characters with automatic proficiency in their deity's weapon getting Exotic Weapon Proficiency for bastard swords.

No, it's really not the same thing at all. But I guess that's beside the point. I'm in a nitpicky mood.

Sure it is: you look at the category the weapon falls under, not what additional bonuses it has in the text. The category is what matters. Same principle.

Hm, yeah, I guess when you put it like that it does seem like about the same thing. Nevermind then.

[Mike Schneider]

There is a not a GM in this game who will not beat your ass down if you think you're going to exploit a loophole in claiming PAx3 while wielding a lance in one hand on horseback, then triple that again on a Spirited Charge.

Gooooood luck.

[Reis]

The lance rules don't make any sense anyway, the damage from a lance charge is done because of the speed of the mount, not the strength of the rider. How can you power attack with a weapon that's braced against your shoulder?

[Zen79]

David Thomassen wrote:

Mike, the Feat can be read in another way Power Attack"...This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls"

The Lance is a two-handed weapon that can be wielded one-handed while riding.

If Power Attack had said "making an attack with a weapon wielded in two hands (excluding Light Weapons)" then there would be less wiggle room [What do One-handed weapons with Exotic Proficiencies to make them considered 'light' count as]{My guess for the Sawtooth Sabre is that it would still count as one-handed as "you treat the weapon as if it were a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting"}

So if you are a medium character wielding a small-sized greatsword (2-handed weapon!) in one hand, you get... what exactly?

Or let's say you are a medium Titan Mauler that wields 2 medium greatswords...

[Leongorance]

Reis wrote:

The lance rules don't make any sense anyway, the damage from a lance charge is done because of the speed of the mount, not the strength of the rider. How can you power attack with a weapon that's braced against your shoulder?

+1

Not even to talk about possibility to pounce with lance.So you can charge and hit 5 times,every attack with triple damage.Thou i am not sure if that is possible as it would be totally out of mind:)

[Talonhawke]

Mike Schneider wrote:

There is a not a GM in this game who will not beat your ass down if you think you're going to exploit a loophole in claiming PAx3 while wielding a lance in one hand on horseback, then triple that again on a Spirited Charge.

Gooooood luck.

Dont see the problem with it i would allow it considering if they just got into postion and made a full attack they will probably outdo that damage anyways.

[BigNorseWolf]

Use the lance in one hand, get x 1

Use the lance in two hands get x1.5

[Jiggy]

Better yet, be a man and leave your mount at home. ;)

[Grick]

Jiggy wrote:

Better yet, be a man and leave your mount at home. ;)

irrelevant to thread:

A young cavalier named Billy Joe grew restless on the farm
A boy filled with wonderlust who really meant no harm
He changed his clothes and shined his boots
And combed his dark hair down
And his mother cried as he walked out

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

He laughed and kissed his mom
And said your Billy Joe's a man
I can charge as quick and straight as anybody can
But I wouldn't charge without a cause
I'd ride nobody down
But she cried again as he rode away

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

He sang a song as on he rode
His lance hung at his hips
He rode into a goblin town
A smile upon his lips
He stopped and walked into a bar
And laid his gold piece down
But his mother's words echoed again

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

He drank his first strong liquor then to calm his shaking hand
And tried to tell himself he had become a man
A dusty kobold at his side began to laugh him down
And he heard again his mothers words

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

Filled with rage then
Billy Joe reached for his horses kit
But the stranger drew his bow and fired
Before he rolled init
As Billy Joe fell to the floor
The crowd all gathered 'round
And wondered at his final words

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

[King of Vrock]

Mike Schneider wrote:

There is a not a GM in this game who will not beat your ass down if you think you're going to exploit a loophole in claiming PAx3 while wielding a lance in one hand on horseback, then triple that again on a Spirited Charge.

Gooooood luck.

Do mounted charges really kick ass? Hell yes they do! That's why mounted cavalry ruled the battlefield till machine guns were invented.

So I'm sorry Mike, but I'm a GM and that's exactly what happens, there is no loophole. It's a feature, not a bug. A lance breaks the normal rules for two handed weapons. It is an example of a specific rule overriding a general one.

--School of Vrock

[Ganymede425]

I would say it is more sensible to interpret the rule to mean "while using a two handed weapon in two hands." As others have previously mentioned in the thread, interpreting the rule to mean otherwise results in the unusual circumstance of larger creatures using smaller versions of two-handed weapons in one hand and still getting the extra 50% boost to damage.

When interpreting rules, it is important to note why we have the rule in the first place as well as the underlying cause of the bonus. We get an extra damage boost from power attack in this case because of the extra oomph we can add to an attack with a second arm. We don't get it when we use light weapons in two hands because of the lack of leverage. With such in mind, it wouldn't make much sense to give someone the extra 50% bonus when they are only using a weapon in one hand.

[Fozbek]

Zen79 wrote:

So if you are a medium character wielding a small-sized greatsword (2-handed weapon!) in one hand, you get... what exactly?

Or let's say you are a medium Titan Mauler that wields 2 medium greatswords...

Nope, that doesn't work the way you think it does:

PRD wrote:

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

Weapons of a size different to the character that wields them change their category. Titan Mauler specifically says it's treated as a one-handed weapon for Power Attack.

Lances wielded by the correctly-sized character riding a mount don't.

[Fozbek]

Ganymede425 wrote:

As others have previously mentioned in the thread, interpreting the rule to mean otherwise results in the unusual circumstance of larger creatures using smaller versions of two-handed weapons in one hand and still getting the extra 50% boost to damage.

Incorrect. It does not.

[OWEN STEPHENS]

Ganymede425 wrote:

I would say it is more sensible to interpret the rule to mean "while using a two handed weapon in two hands."

No problem. Since the lance states "While mounted you can wield a lance with one hand." (emphasis mine) players just state they reach over and grab the lance with both hands for a charge.

I think that's going to look silly. I'd rather just give them the (relatively minor by the time they are doing Spirited Charge and similar tricks) extra Power Attack damage.

[Ganymede425]

OWEN STEPHENS wrote:

I think that's going to look silly. I'd rather just give them the (relatively minor by the time they are doing Spirited Charge and similar tricks) extra Power Attack damage.

It is admittedly an incredibly rare situation. I just think that, since the whole rationalle behind the extra 50% bonus is the extra oomph of swinging with both arms, using the weapon with just one hand shouldn't get that extra oomph.

[King of Vrock]

Ganymede425 wrote:

OWEN STEPHENS wrote:

I think that's going to look silly. I'd rather just give them the (relatively minor by the time they are doing Spirited Charge and similar tricks) extra Power Attack damage.

It is admittedly an incredibly rare situation. I just think that, since the whole rationalle behind the extra 50% bonus is the extra oomph of swinging with both arms, using the weapon with just one hand shouldn't get that extra oomph.

Ok this is a really simple idea to get your head around. You don't need two hands on a lance when mounted because you get all the "oomph" from the size and momentum of the mount, not swinging or thrusting the weapon. That's why lances deal x2 damage on a mounted charge!

A lance is a two handed weapon with the bonus of being able to be used in one hand only while mounted and gaining all of its normal benefits.

--We will, we will... Vrock you!

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Mike Schneider wrote:

There is a not a GM in this game who will not beat your ass down if you think you're going to exploit a loophole in claiming PAx3 while wielding a lance in one hand on horseback, then triple that again on a Spirited Charge.

Gooooood luck.

I'm a GM and I wouldn't beat his ass down. The lance is a weak two-handed weapon (1d8) and the intent behind allowing two-handed weapon with one hand "while mounted" is to replicate the devastating force of impact behind a cavalry charge or jousting pass. So basically, you use the horse's power to drive your damage. I don't think there are other two-handed weapons out there that can be wielded one-handed... this one does, but only while mounted, and at the expense of lower (1d8) damage.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen players build a character based on mounted combat, and that's in 24 years of gaming. I'm not about to shaft a player for making a character choice that's only a bit strong in very few situations/circumstances. (outdoors, while mounted - not possible in dungeons, difficult terrain, etc.) Remember that you can't charge in difficult terrain unless you have some very specialized feats (some of which most mounted builds couldn't afford anyhow unless they are a fighter not built for min/max... i mean, are you going to delay greater weapon focus or greater specialization at the expense of a feat that lets you go easier on difficult terrain? I mean, how much of a bastard is your DM that he always go by the book anywayz???)

[Calsapher]

I would like to point out one thing no one is talking about. While watching jousting bouts at ren-fairs and watching "how-to" tutorials on the subject we find that a charge with a lance, in real life, has less to do with the rider's strength and all to do with his/her precision. The weight and momentum of the horse is what creates the power behind a mounted lance attack.

With that in mind I would argue that while using the lance on horse back that any charging attacks would use the PC's BAB and the horse's STR. With that in mind next I would like to address the issue of PA.

Power attack necessitates that the player affect a penalty on his/her BAB to add a physical attack bonus. This is interpreted to mean that the player is focusing less on the accuracy of their attack in order to put in a more powerful thrust, swing, ect.. This is a physical thing that needs the player to be using his/her own physical prowess.

Keeping that in mind I would say no to power attacks on a charge under the notion that you are using the mount's prowess and your accuracy.

A charge with a lance is simple, and I state again this is in real life, you brace then you guide your horse and line up the impact. There is no thrusting or jabbing involved and is not a question of your PC's physical might

Thus the attack would result in the following.
PC's BAB+ Weapon Focus+ Magic Wep Mod.= Attack Bonus
Weapon Damage+ Mounts's STR+ Magic Wep Mod= Attack Damage

This, with feats BAB4 and a +1lance works out to be...
+6, 2d8+12.

***Note that this is only for those who want a more realistic interpretation of a mounted charge. If you are playing a high fantasy or cinematic game do as you please.

[Tiberius777]

Just my two cents here - I would agree with Purple Dragon Knight because we had a player build a character that specialized in mounted charges. His character was a gnome or a halfling on a wolf (smaller size) and the party was a good size (like 6 or 7 characters). This guy would get in maybe one or two attacks at most in the entire battle, due to position or someone getting in the way of his charge, terrain, you name it. I never thought it was very effective overall, but he was more about the flavor of the character. But when he landed an attack it was fairly massive.

When I GM, I usually try to create encounters or challenges that let each of the characters have an opportunity "show off" if possible. So every 6 or 7 encounters for him were set for him look good. When you're the real hero of the battle it makes the game all the more enjoyable.

Sorry for the rant

[Arizhel]

Mike Schneider wrote:

There is a not a GM in this game who will not beat your ass down if you think you're going to exploit a loophole in claiming PAx3 while wielding a lance in one hand on horseback, then triple that again on a Spirited Charge.

Gooooood luck.

I allow it, because that is the rule. . . I figure it would have been just as simple to call the lance a 1 handed weapon that needed to be used two handed if not mounted. As such, I allow anything that applies to two handed weapons.

[The Human Diversion]

Jiggy wrote:

Better yet, be a man and leave your mount at home. ;)

My Halfling paladin will never leave his Burmese Mountain Dog home! He's a fantastic mount and smarter than some half-orcs I know.

[Christopher Utley]

Gricks post:

A young cavalier named Billy Joe grew restless on the farm
A boy filled with wonderlust who really meant no harm
He changed his clothes and shined his boots
And combed his dark hair down
And his mother cried as he walked out

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

He laughed and kissed his mom
And said your Billy Joe's a man
I can charge as quick and straight as anybody can
But I wouldn't charge without a cause
I'd ride nobody down
But she cried again as he rode away

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

He sang a song as on he rode
His lance hung at his hips
He rode into a goblin town
A smile upon his lips
He stopped and walked into a bar
And laid his gold piece down
But his mother's words echoed again

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

He drank his first strong liquor then to calm his shaking hand
And tried to tell himself he had become a man
A dusty kobold at his side began to laugh him down
And he heard again his mothers words

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

Filled with rage then
Billy Joe reached for his horses kit
But the stranger drew his bow and fired
Before he rolled init
As Billy Joe fell to the floor
The crowd all gathered 'round
And wondered at his final words

"Don't take your mount to town son
Leave your mount at home Bill
Don't take your mount to town"

For a minute I thought this was played to a Kenny Rogers tune.

[Grick]

Christopher Utley wrote:

For a minute I thought this was played to a Kenny Rogers tune.

Right genre, wrong artist. (Youtube)