This is actual text from a module by a third party publisher. I won't mention the publisher or the module name as I don't want this to be a bash session, especially because I'm going to be doing a small amount of bashing myself... :)
A secret door is set into the north wall, disguised as part of a simple fresco created by a dwarf artisan. It is opened by twisting the anvil one quarter turn clockwise. The anvil itself is heavy and can only be turned by a strong person (DC25 Strength Check).
First off, there's no DC given for the perception check to find the secret door, or the mechanism that opens it. Thanks for the great story elements about the fresco and the artisan, but I need mechanics for PCs to find this door.
Secondly, telling me that the anvil is heavy and can only be moved by a strong person is great info, but it doesn't take into account the actual mechanics of what's about to happen there. As a GM if three PCs told me they were all going to "put their backs into it" and twist the anvil, I'm going to say, "okay," because the actual weight of the anvil isn't given, so I have no idea whether my PCs' strength scores allow them to push/drag the weight. Telling me it's a 25 DC check only tells me that if I have a PC with a +3 STR bonus who takes 20 and has somebody else successfully Aid Another, they can move it.
So, my question to the GMs out there is, (assuming the PCs make the DC 20 Perception check I will assign to find and operate the door) how many would hand wave the turning of the anvil to open it? Or would you require the PCs to actually take 20 and roll any and all the Aid Another checks necessary to move the anvil?
Also, a note to the web devs: I'm not asking for advice, which is why I put this in General Discussion. I know what I'm going to do. I just want to see how that relates to what other GMs would do in the same situation. I'm gathering anecdotal evidence, not seeking to form a new opinion. :)
If someone is taking 20 on moving the anvil, I see no reason to require those assisting to roll.
the DC is really useful if there is some reason the PCs need to open the door in a hurry, otherwise its fairly irrelevant.
The text though makes me think that the author intended that it was not possible to assist someone in turning the anvil (because it is inset and not large enough for more than one person to manipulate at a time).
This makes the door quite difficult to open without the aid of buffing and possibly a guidance spell as well. That may be intentional. If getting the door open is not required to complete the adventure then leave it as very difficult, hopefully with a nice surprise behind it if the party does manage to open it.
Without knowing more about the adventure, I would probably leave it that way and if someone insisted on taking 20 would likely make sure at least one "random" encounter came along while they were trying. I'd also probably give dwarves a racial bonus of +4 to open it (assuming it was made for dwarves by dwarves).
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As to the DC of finding the door, it's 1-2 on a d6 if you're an elf or 1 on a d6 if you're a half-elf. Otherwise it depends on your thief level.
Since they're clearly going for a bend bars/lift gates check for moving the anvil...
Hmm.
I'd set perception at somewhere in the 23-27 range (probably 25), because it's a well-concealed secret door (depends on the level of the module, really: if it's for 1st level characters, that's a pretty darn tricky check, but level 10 characters would find it easily).
I'd let the perception check find the door, but not indicate how to open it. If someone tried to force it, I'd allow another perception check (or disable device, perhaps) to notice that heaving on the door makes the anvil move (or a loud "clunk" from the anvil, or something).
I'd also heavily question why the person who put this secret door in set it up so that the average person just can't open it at all without help: if the architect/owner wasn't known for being particularly strong, I'd drop that Str check DC like an anvil, because having a secret door that you can't use seems pretty pointless.
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If you want a more mechanical answer, it takes 2000 lbs of force to turn the anvil. Str 20 (lowest str that can get a DC 25 check alone), maximum lift, times 5 since only "pushing" it.
Heh, heh, touche' Scythia!
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amusing that the secret door is actually not able to be easily detected by dwarves with stone cunning while being a dwarf made secret door. What dread secret did the artist need to hide from his fellow dwarves? Perhaps a cache of Elvish rations and fine wine he feared his kin wouldn't understand?
If you want a more mechanical answer, it takes 2000 lbs of force to turn the anvil. Str 20 (lowest str that can get a DC 25 check alone), maximum lift, times 5 since only "pushing" it.
There's a world of difference between the twisting and pushing an anvil in terms of the amount of force you can bring to bear on it. 2000 lbs is really too high of an estimate.
First since it doesn't tell you otherwise i would use the following;
"Secret Doors: Disguised as a bare patch of wall (or floor or ceiling), a bookcase, a fireplace, or a fountain, a secret door leads to a secret passage or room. Someone examining the area finds a secret door, if one exists, on a successful Perception check (DC 20 for a typical secret door to DC 30 for a well-hidden secret door).
Many secret doors require special methods of opening, such as hidden buttons or pressure plates. Secret doors can open like normal doors, or they might pivot, slide, sink, rise, or even lower like a drawbridge to permit access. Builders might put a secret door low near the floor or high in a wall, making it difficult to find or reach. Wizards and sorcerers have a spell, phase door, that allows them to create a magic secret door that only they can use."
I'd go with DC 20 to locate since it seems like a typical secret door.
Secondly, the weight of the anvil doesn't matter since it requires a DC 25 Strength check to move it. Much in the same way that lifting a typical portcullis requires a DC 25 Strength check. The weight doesn't matter since it already gave you the relevant information.
I've found (assuming no one is in a rush) to just find the average Strength check of the party.
Example: The Strong Person of the Group has a 20 STR so +5 with taking 10 along with Aid Another from the rest of the group for another +6 means that on the average they can lift/move with a 21 Strength check.
Making them roll for anything more difficult.
Some of the discussion lead me to put in a few more details. The module is for 3-4 PCs of levels 1 and 2. Behind the secret door there is a chamber with a CR 1 swinging axe trap, and a CR 3 camouflaged pit trap, both have DC 20 Disable DCs. The axe trap is a DC 20 Perception, the pit trap is a DC 25 Perception. Beyond those traps though, there is a significant cache of weapons forged of adamantine and mithral. Honestly it's a cache that I wouldn't give to a group of level 5 PCs, but I'm a notoriously stingy GM when it comes to precious metal forged weapons. Also the anvil is actually on a raised dais that is in the center of the room with 5'(read: one square) of walking space all around.
It is NOT something that is necessary to open to complete the module, and is in a part of the adventure that seems to be designed as a possible side-quest/reward for enterprising and patient PCs who take time to do a lot of Gathering Information.
@Arakadwyn, thanks for the math, that actually gives me a something to think about.
@Scythia, is that red box or blue box?
I don't know the module, but is it possible they told you something like "the DC to find all secret doors in this dungeon is 23" or some such thing, near the beginning of this dungeon? I have several published dungeons like that, where they have a "Dungeon Features" section for the whole place or even a separate one for each level, and all the features of that level use those default values unless otherwise specified.
If not, then I wouldn't hand-waive it. I'd follow the same basic formula that most skill use:
DC 0: Task is so easy that literally anyone can do it automatically (impossible to fail on a Take-10)
DC 5: Task is so easy that almost anyone can do it auotmatically (Take-10 with multiple large penalties might fail)
DC 10: Task is so easy that normal people can do it automatically (Take-10 with no penalties)
DC 15: Task is difficult but most people could do it with a little training (5 skill ranks or just 2 ranks in a Class-skill, less with any ability score bonus).
DC 20: Task is quite hard, only well-trained will succeed routinely, but oridnary people might succeed if they're lucky (Take-10 with many ranks or NO Take-10 with a lucky roll)
DC 25: Task is extremely difficult. Only legendary people can do this routinely and even well-trained (but not legendary) people need some luck to pull this off (Take-10 with great ability scores and lots of ranks or NO Take-10 with some training and lots of luck)
DC 30 or higher: Task is beyond all but the most legendary people and even THEY usually need some luck (few people can ever make this on a Take-10, although the great legends can, everyone else needs to be a little bit legendary AND lucky without a Take-10)
This stuff isn't explicitly specified anywhere that I know of, but looking at the set DCs throughout the skill chapter, they usually conform to guidelines close to what I just listed.
So, ask yourself, how skilled was that dwarven artisan? How legendary and/or lucky would ANYONE have to be to find this secret door? Don't set the DC based on the PCs' abilities, set it based on the EVERYONE world. In other words, just because you have a PC with a 20 Perception doesn't mean the dwarven artisan originally made the door to challenge THAT PC - he made it to be hard to find based on average ordinary people. How hard is up to you, but if you DO have a legendary PC in your group, that guy should be rewarded by finding things that others cannot.
Me, I'd say since they mentioned that it's hidden in the fresco, and since normally challenging secret doors are around a DC 20 without a fresco, I'd bump this up to DC 25. BUT, I would also add a chance to see the scratches in the floor around the twisty anvil - someone might find those on a 20 even if they don't know why they're there. What fun to find the mechanism without even knowing there IS a secret door...
I would require someone to make a DC 25 str check to open the door, just like the module says. How much they lift as a group doesn't matter, they need a DC 25 str check.
This is especially true since it is a side bonus thing, not required to complete the adventure.
I would probably also have a pretty good chance for a wondering monster if they took 20, if they were in a place where wandering monsters seems remotely plausible.
I'm with Dave on this one. They are trying to rotate an extremely heavy locking mechanism, not lift it up, so carrying capacity doesn't really come into play here.
If multiple party members took 20, I'd pretty much just up and say they succeed.
I would require someone to make a DC 25 str check to open the door, just like the module says. How much they lift as a group doesn't matter, they need a DC 25 str check.
This is especially true since it is a side bonus thing, not required to complete the adventure.
I would probably also have a pretty good chance for a wondering monster if they took 20, if they were in a place where wandering monsters seems remotely plausible.
Would they even know to take a 20?
- There appears to be a secret door in the north wall (if they find it with a perception check).
- There is an anvil in the center of the room
If they strike upon trying to move the anvil, I'd require a strength check, and require them to tell me what direction they were trying to move it.
I don't know the module, but if I were designing this, I'd make sure there was some way for them to find out about turning the anvil, rather than pushing it, sitting on it, or trying to forge a perfect waraxe on it (maybe that opens the door because magic).
I would give a lot of leeway for player ingenuity, use of pulleys or even a well placed grease spell would lower the DC significantly for the STR check.
I'm with Dave on this one. They are trying to rotate an extremely heavy locking mechanism, not lift it up, so carrying capacity doesn't really come into play here.
If multiple party members took 20, I'd pretty much just up and say they succeed.
Isn't that two completely different things? Either requiring a DC 25 STR check, or hand-waving it because all the PCs said they would "put their backs into it" (read: we all take 20).
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Just finding a secret door doesn't tell you the mechanism to open it.
It doesn't?
What's the point, then?
I suppose that somebody would build a secret door that's hard to find and a secret lever that's even harder to find, such that a good search only finds the door but fails to find the lever. I guess that could happen.
But then what?
I'm sure the guy searching says "OK, now I find the lever" and then searches until he finds it. It's basically impossible to fail to find it if you have the time. Levers are always something that you can move or that you can push/pull, so just meticulously try pushing, pulling, or moving every sconce, every brick, every floor tile, every THING until you find it. If you fail to find it by searching, just Take 20. If you still can't find it because it's just too dang well hidden, then just start fiddling with everything in the room - now all it takes is time and patience.
But this will be frustrating for many players, I suspect. Especially if you play it by making the PLAYER specify every little thing he fiddles with. Meanwhile, other players are breaking out their smart phones entertaining themselves with YouTube while the one player is just getting frustrated until the PLAYER manages to say "I push the third brick on the 4th row up from the floor behind the movable bookshelf, but only after I give it a quarter of a twist counter clockwise".
And then everyone can get back to playing the game...
I hope it's not happening that way.
Seems to me it makes much more sense to assume that the SEARCH (Perception check) finds the secret door AND the secret lever. After all, that's what a professional dungeon delver would do - keep looking until he finds it. And at least for most of us, letting our expert character use his professional skills and niche expertise makes more sense than requiring the player to ALSO master those skills.
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It's written under Perception skills. The regular DC to find average secret door is 20 and I would use this DC simply because finding a trigger to open the door is almost impossible task. I mean, come on, who will notice the anvil. The PCs can at least use some spells or special abilities to bypass the door in this way.
Given that it is a level 1-2 scenario, I'd take the time to walk any new players through the take 10 and take 20 rules. And refresh any experienced players on the rules (because taking 20 should take as much table time as hand waving it).
It's written under Perception skills. The regular DC to find average secret door is 20 and I would use this DC simply because finding a trigger to open the door is almost impossible task. I mean, come on, who will notice the anvil. The PCs can at least use some spells or special abilities to bypass the door in this way.
Notice an anvil? Almost impossible to NOT notice it...
But you meant, "Who would think of moving the anvil?". I get that. But what if previous users had moved it so much that there were clear scrapes on the stone floor, in a crescent shape, as if this anvil had been swung back and forth like big iron door...
The DC to find those scratches could be anything, maybe even as low as 10 or so, if the anvil is really heavy and had been used a lot, carving really deep obvious grooves.
After that, the PCs might have never found that secret door (basic DC is 20, up to 30 or so per the Environment rules, but this one said it's cleverly hidden in a fresco so the DC might be higher than the normal basic secret door), but once they put some muscle against that swingy anvil, the wall in front of them slides open, much to their surprise.
My plan to run it is much like what some people have mentioned. I will be walking the players through the Take 10 and 20 rules before the next session, that's a good reminder. I'm not going to just say, "yeah you find it and open it." I'm going to set the Perception DC at 20, because while the door may be hidden, the flavor text actually says that the anvil has seen recent and frequent use. In my mind there's going to be some scrapes on the stone, or at least scrapes in the dust. So finding that the anvil moves might actually be easier than finding the door itself. Regardless, once they make the perception check, I'll explain about the noticeable scrapes on the floor. Then it will be up to them to move it. Whether they actually say "I/we take 20," or just "we all push/pull," doesn't really matter to me. Which, I guess, is a sort of a hand-wave.
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It's written under Perception skills. The regular DC to find average secret door is 20 and I would use this DC simply because finding a trigger to open the door is almost impossible task. I mean, come on, who will notice the anvil. The PCs can at least use some spells or special abilities to bypass the door in this way.Notice an anvil? Almost impossible to NOT notice it...
But you meant, "Who would think of moving the anvil?". I get that. But what if previous users had moved it so much that there were clear scrapes on the stone floor, in a crescent shape, as if this anvil had been swung back and forth like big iron door...
The DC to find those scratches could be anything, maybe even as low as 10 or so, if the anvil is really heavy and had been used a lot, carving really deep obvious grooves.
After that, the PCs might have never found that secret door (basic DC is 20, up to 30 or so per the Environment rules, but this one said it's cleverly hidden in a fresco so the DC might be higher than the normal basic secret door), but once they put some muscle against that swingy anvil, the wall in front of them slides open, much to their surprise.
I just meant in general, that nobody would think of moving the anvil. Alright, alright, there might be some scratches left. You would still need several stronger people to move it.
I guess it just depends how much time does GM wish to waste on a secret door.
I guess it just depends how much time does GM wish to waste on a secret door.
I don't see it as wasted time.
This game is about many things. Killing the next monster and/or looting the next room are just part of the game. Many people, in including most that I've ever gamed with (there have been a few exceptions) also enjoy the exploration. Actually finding the interesting places is, for many people, a big part of the game and just as fun as the other parts.
A good description, followed by the players searching, then a description of the scratches in the floor, the players "solve" the riddle of what to do, they push the anvil, the previously undetected door grinds open behind the spectating wizard, revealing a dark and dusty passage as the PCs quickly reach for weapons and the wizard squeals like a schoolgirl and runs to the other side of the room to hide behind the paladin...
It adds to the fun of the exploration, it adds to sense of wonder (wow, hidden stuff and mysterious secret areas), and can even add to the drama - all good story telling elements.
And the players get a sense of accomplishment too: they found it, they solved it, they opened it. Everybody wins.
Not wasted time at all.
Everybody wins.
Or they fail to check for traps, everyone gets gashed to high heaven by a swinging axe trap and stumbles forward bleeding, only to fall headfirst down a 30' pit trap.
Either way, still a lot of fun.
I'm with Scythia on this, although s/he put it far more succinctly than I could.
This was a very, very common way to describe how to open secret doors in earlier editions of the game (e.g. AD&D). Basically, the mechanism to open the secret door was a free-form puzzle that the players had to figure out by describing what they do to open it-- usually by trial and error.
You still see this kind of description used in supplements for contemporary "Old School" retro-clone games (e.g. Swords & Wizardry) or for rules-light games (e.g. FATE).
Was this in a product that was either converted from another game system, or is available for multiple game systems?
Anyway: If I was converting an old-school module on-the-fly (which I have done before), and I came across this description, I'd go with a DC 20 (higher or lower depending on the party level) to notice the secret door, and let the PCs figure out how to open it Old-School-style, but also/instead allow them them a skill check to figure it out if they get bored or frustrated with the free-form puzzle. (e.g. a Disable Device or Knowledge (engineering) check DC something-appropriate-for-their-level).
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Everybody wins.Or they fail to check for traps, everyone gets gashed to high heaven by a swinging axe trap and stumbles forward bleeding, only to fall headfirst down a 30' pit trap.
Either way, still a lot of fun.
Yep!
You know what's at the bottom of that trap?
ME!
I C H O M P ! ! ! them all!
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Is it me or is throwing DC 20+ checks at a bunch of first-level guys a little much? Reading the full idea, it seems more as a side bonus area of hell or something like that. DC 25 to not notice a pit, and 3d6 will likely ruin most people's day.
And if they succeed, they have adamantine and mithril at level 2. Um, no. You're not stingy; the game itself is against this. Seriously. A level 3 PC should have 3,000 gp of stuff. An adamantine dagger is ... 3,002 gp. Stripped naked and holding this a level 3 PC is considered on track. (And weird. Put on some pants!)
I really think this room is a 'find it later' sort.
Edit: As far as the DC 25 to open the thing? Aid another would be enough. Everyone push, including the castys.
Is it me or is throwing DC 20+ checks at a bunch of first-level guys a little much? Reading the full idea, it seems more as a side bonus area of hell or something like that. DC 25 to not notice a pit, and 3d6 will likely ruin most people's day.
And if they succeed, they have adamantine and mithril at level 2. Um, no. You're not stingy; the game itself is against this. Seriously. A level 3 PC should have 3,000 gp of stuff. An adamantine dagger is ... 3,002 gp. Stripped naked and holding this a level 3 PC is considered on track. (And weird. Put on some pants!)
I really think this room is a 'find it later' sort.
Edit: As far as the DC 25 to open the thing? Aid another would be enough. Everyone push, including the castys.
Total agreement here. The caveat is that there is an NPC (read that closely one NPC) that has been on the lookout for the precious metal forged weapons. He's been searching all over, as they were commissioned, but then the smith was killed by a rival smith in a fit of jealousy, and he has orders to negotiate with whomever finds them, or kill them and take the stuff if they don't comply. The NPC is part of a larger coalition, and that could turn it into a nice long-term nemesis kind of a situation, but I highly doubt anybody that finds the cache as listed (which I'm paring down considerably, but even then, it's too much for level 2s) is going to just sell it at 50% of value with the promise of guild work in the future (which is what the adventures suggests) to some lone NPC, just because he's got a badge of office from some guild that doesn't even have a house in this town.
Also, finding this particular forge and treasury is not easy. There are a few subtle hints here and there in notes that the PCs can find lying around, if they search really hard, or ask the right people after changing their attitude to indifferent/friendly. It is definitely written in as a side-quest/set up for further adventure down the road, but! The PCs in questions have already found a journal entry that indicates there's a secondary mine entrance in the western foot hills (which is where the forge is located), so it's out there, and my guess is, they'll be looking for it soon, on the off chance it can get them in sight unseen to the lower parts of the mine to find the temple of the cult in residence.
Is it me or is throwing DC 20+ checks at a bunch of first-level guys a little much? Reading the full idea, it seems more as a side bonus area of hell or something like that.
The Core rulebook says the DC for standard secret doors is between 20 and 30. This makes sense. Even an average commoner with ZERO ranks in Perception can automatically find EVERY DC 20 secret door if he spends a couple minutes looking for it (Take-20).
Because of that, secret doors REQUIRE a DC higher than 20 or they WILL be found. I personally think the rulebook is a little wrong by even suggesting a DC as low as 20 for a secret door - you absolutely CANNOT keep anything "secret" with a DC that low.
I routinely have PCs who can achieve a DC25 search check at level 1. A single rank + class bonus + any WIS bonus gets you there, without even having to be an elf or burn a feat on Alertness (or get it free from a familiar). At level 2 you don't even need a WIS bonus.
Those same PCs are definitely NOT challenged by a DC20 secret door unless I can make them be in such a hurry that they cannot spare two minutes to search for it.
Besides all of the above, in the OP's scenario, it's very reasonable to make the scratches from the anvil more visible than the secret door.
It sounds like a reward for the group that thorough searches the entire dungeon. Who said you had to get it on the way in?
As to moving the anvil, the party did bring the masterwork moving tool? [i.e. crow bar, +2 circumstance bonus to the strength check needed.]
Given the described anvil placement, aid another is allowed, and likely the whole party can be in on it.
The perception DC for a wisdom based char would be: 4(stat)+1(rank)+3(class)+1(trait)+10(take-10)=19.
Hitting DC 20 needs an 11, easy. DC 25 needs a 16, not that bad.
A magnifying glass (another staple for examination) gives a +2 circumstance here.
Given 4 party members getting checks helps also. More if there are any pets.
It might also be placed in the module for a later plot hook for the module's sequel. In module 2 you learn of the cache in module 1 and have to go back and get it in order to easily defeat the BBEG of module 2.
/cevah
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I would say Perception DC 25 (same as moving DC) to find the mechanism
For twisting I would stick to the DC 25 and based on the description of the door would allow other players to "Aid Another".
So for the "PCs told me they were all going to "put their backs into it" and twist the anvil," Part I would make the strongest char take the roll and add +2 for each character who supports him.
I also stay away from "take 20" at this. (I don't like the take 20 rule at all^^).
I would say Perception DC 25 (same as moving DC) to find the mechanism
For twisting I would stick to the DC 25 and based on the description of the door would allow other players to "Aid Another".
So for the "PCs told me they were all going to "put their backs into it" and twist the anvil," Part I would make the strongest char take the roll and add +2 for each character who supports him.I also stay away from "take 20" at this. (I don't like the take 20 rule at all^^).
Even if only a roll of 20 will pass, 5 minutes of trying (1 round per attempt) works out to 50 attempts. There is a 7% chance that they will not roll a 20 in this time. If 19 or 20 passes, there is a 0.5% chance that they won't make it. When your players say "OK, we get together and push and shove at the thing for 5 minutes", are you actually going to ask for 50 rolls when the odds of failure are so trivially low, or are you just going to say "yes, you succeed", or "no, you don't manage to shift it" if they can't ever meet the DC. Or will you just deny multiple rolls or a rough simulation thereof, which screws with every check whose DC is set with the assumption that retrying is allowed (some Perception, Disable Devise and Ability checks like this one are prime examples). I don't see a way around this without altering DCs for a number of skills and abilities and adding mechanics to permit faster completion of tasks at a higher DC, because you should have a much higher chance of picking a lock after 10 minutes than after 6 seconds, but 6 seconds is possible for a skilled locksmith on a crappy lock, even if an amateur can't do it. Oh, and this assumes take 10 is still allowed. If that isn't permitted, then unless you are happy with needing to be a master craftsman to reliably make a pot you will need to strip out d20 rolls and use an RNG with a sane distribution for skills (like 3d6) and then probably tweak all the DCs as well (a 50/50 chance of failure at something of moderate difficulty is nuts).
As said, in the Core Rulebook, the normal DCs to find secret doors are given, so yes, it's not an example of good design that the module didn't give the exact DC, but it's an oversight I can overlook and easily adjust.
About the Strength check, that's ambiguous. Characters have a maximum weight they can push or drag, and they don't need to roll any Strength check to do it, so I'd consider the 25 DC as an alternative way of stating the sheer weight: basically, any character with +5 Strength modifier automatically takes 20 and succeeds, as if the weight to move was the same as a 20 Str load capacity x5 (though, yes, that's probably really excessive, for a mere anvil, especially if it's an anvil for humanoid use, but let's assume the mechanism adds resistance to the turning).
Any character with less than 20 Str just can't move it, and any character with 22 or more might try to do it with a single, well-placed move.
In the end, maybe not the best piece ever seen, but yes, I'd easily dismiss it.
On a side note, taking 20 on a STR check is a little weird.
You want to Take-20 on a Perception check to make sure you do an excellent search? Fine. That means you take 20x longer than normal to search that area, but you do a great job. Mechanically, that means you roll a 1 this round, a 2 next round, a 3 the round after that, all the way up to a 20 on your 20th round of searching. No problem, that works great.
The Take-20 rule is a perfectly sound game mechanic to represent this kind of thing.
You want to Take-20 on a STR check to lift something? So that means it takes 20x longer to lift it? So, say, if I can lift this dagger and put it on the table in a 6 second round, but then I want to Take-20 to make sure I succeed, now it takes me 120 seconds to lift that dagger onto the table? Why? Even if I wanted to lift something that weighs, say, 200 pounds (about the absolute maximum weight I can lift), I might grunt and heave that thing up onto the table in 6 seconds, but if need to spend two minutes, my arms are going to give out, and my legs, and probably my back, long before I get to the full 120 seconds.
The alternative, that I try badly (roll a 1), then try again almost as bad (roll a 2), etc., all the way up until, 120 seconds later, I try very well (roll a 20) and succeed is equally silly. Either I can lift that dagger, or that 200 pound rock, or I can't. Failing 19 times doesn't make me better on the 20th time (actually, with that 200 pound rock, I might be so exhausted after 19 failed tries that I'm actually weaker, not stronger, for that last one).
So, for me, I'd houserule (with no regrets) that, at least for things like a STR check, a Take-20 does NOT take 20x longer, it just means you do your maximum best on the first try. Not RAW, but it makes more sense. For everything else where spending more time DOES mean doing a better job, the Take-20 rules are just fine.
So, for me, I'd houserule (with no regrets) that, at least for things like a STR check, a Take-20 does NOT take 20x longer, it just means you do your maximum best on the first try. Not RAW, but it makes more sense. For everything else where spending more time DOES mean doing a better job, the Take-20 rules are just fine.
To me it makes sense that rather than taking twenty times as long to lift something, or trying 20 times, you are instead taking time to prepare. Stretching a bit, taking some deep breaths, getting mentally prepared etc.
I'm certainly no expect, but in seeing things like weight lifting competitions it certainly seems like to get their best effort they do take some time to prepare.
On a side note, taking 20 on a STR check is a little weird.
You want to Take-20 on a Perception check to make sure you do an excellent search? Fine. That means you take 20x longer than normal to search that area, but you do a great job. Mechanically, that means you roll a 1 this round, a 2 next round, a 3 the round after that, all the way up to a 20 on your 20th round of searching. No problem, that works great.
The Take-20 rule is a perfectly sound game mechanic to represent this kind of thing.
You want to Take-20 on a STR check to lift something? So that means it takes 20x longer to lift it? So, say, if I can lift this dagger and put it on the table in a 6 second round, but then I want to Take-20 to make sure I succeed, now it takes me 120 seconds to lift that dagger onto the table? Why? Even if I wanted to lift something that weighs, say, 200 pounds (about the absolute maximum weight I can lift), I might grunt and heave that thing up onto the table in 6 seconds, but if need to spend two minutes, my arms are going to give out, and my legs, and probably my back, long before I get to the full 120 seconds.
The alternative, that I try badly (roll a 1), then try again almost as bad (roll a 2), etc., all the way up until, 120 seconds later, I try very well (roll a 20) and succeed is equally silly. Either I can lift that dagger, or that 200 pound rock, or I can't. Failing 19 times doesn't make me better on the 20th time (actually, with that 200 pound rock, I might be so exhausted after 19 failed tries that I'm actually weaker, not stronger, for that last one).
So, for me, I'd houserule (with no regrets) that, at least for things like a STR check, a Take-20 does NOT take 20x longer, it just means you do your maximum best on the first try. Not RAW, but it makes more sense. For everything else where spending more time DOES mean doing a better job, the Take-20 rules are just fine.
The example given is in my own opinion more silly than taking 20 on a strength check. (Since picking up a normal dagger doesn't even require a Strength check. :)
The example given is in my own opinion more silly than taking 20 on a strength check. (Since picking up a normal dagger doesn't even require a Strength check. :)On a side note, taking 20 on a STR check is a little weird.
You want to Take-20 on a Perception check to make sure you do an excellent search? Fine. That means you take 20x longer than normal to search that area, but you do a great job. Mechanically, that means you roll a 1 this round, a 2 next round, a 3 the round after that, all the way up to a 20 on your 20th round of searching. No problem, that works great.
The Take-20 rule is a perfectly sound game mechanic to represent this kind of thing.
You want to Take-20 on a STR check to lift something? So that means it takes 20x longer to lift it? So, say, if I can lift this dagger and put it on the table in a 6 second round, but then I want to Take-20 to make sure I succeed, now it takes me 120 seconds to lift that dagger onto the table? Why? Even if I wanted to lift something that weighs, say, 200 pounds (about the absolute maximum weight I can lift), I might grunt and heave that thing up onto the table in 6 seconds, but if need to spend two minutes, my arms are going to give out, and my legs, and probably my back, long before I get to the full 120 seconds.
The alternative, that I try badly (roll a 1), then try again almost as bad (roll a 2), etc., all the way up until, 120 seconds later, I try very well (roll a 20) and succeed is equally silly. Either I can lift that dagger, or that 200 pound rock, or I can't. Failing 19 times doesn't make me better on the 20th time (actually, with that 200 pound rock, I might be so exhausted after 19 failed tries that I'm actually weaker, not stronger, for that last one).
So, for me, I'd houserule (with no regrets) that, at least for things like a STR check, a Take-20 does NOT take 20x longer, it just means you do your maximum best on the first try. Not RAW, but it makes more sense. For everything else where spending more time DOES mean doing a better job, the Take-20 rules are just fine.
Well, yeah, it kinda does. But the DC is so low that anyone with a STR 1 or higher auto succeeds on a Take-10 so nobody ever rolls it. We assume auto success.
You don't believe that?
OK, suppose a mosquito wanted to lift that dagger up onto the table. Would you require a STR check then? Mosquito too small? What about a mouse? Would a mouse need a STR check to lift a dagger up onto a table? I'm sure if we try long enough, we'll find a creature of the appropriate size that it makes sense to require a STR check for this task. Humans are no different, it's just that even the weakest humans are strong enough to lift a dagger with an automatic success so we don't roll for it.
Unless it is, maybe, a colossal dagger.
In any case, in the same paragraph with the dagger example, I also said "something that weighs 200 pounds" to make the example less "silly".
That's what I'm trying to get at.
It makes sense to have a strength check for things that require effort.
Just because i can take a 20 to climb normal stairs to the 2nd floor, doesn't make taking 20 on strength checks is silly. It's not something normally done and is being done simply to be silly.
Sometimes (in the case of requiring a strength check) things are not as simple as i can or can't lift something.
A better example would be pushing a stuck car out of the mud. I give it a good push (strength check) and fail to move the car. So i put my back into and take my time steadily pushing and straining myself (taking a 20). After a few minutes it will become quite clear if i can move the object or not.
In your example of a dagger the person taking 20 to pick up a dagger is clearly some type of fool trying to entertain those watching.
This is ridiculous. Who has a fresco and an anvil in the same room? Nonsense. Handwave it by all means, but obviously this module is beyond believable.
PS. On topic, I would actually give the challenge that is appropriate for your group. If they all have the perception of a lemon sole perhaps make it low. If not, a moderate. DC 20-25.
To move the anvil, I wouldnt even require a STR check. If youve ever moved an anvil you might see that you can move it by turning it on its base. So several characters with a score of STR -1 is still reasonable.
To turn the mechanism..I dont think these are very interesting checks. A guy with 20 STR can fail at this while a guy with 9 STR can excel, because dice.
I would just say that if the others were to try, they couldnt do it, only when Mister Strong Party Member gets on the job do they see a chance and then they can help to turn it.
I.e. Handwaved in my case.
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PS. On topic, I would actually give the challenge that is appropriate for your group. If they all have the perception of a lemon sole perhaps make it low. If not, a moderate. DC 20-25.
I'm generally opposed to this on principle. It leads to oddities like this:
GM: The NPC gave you the mission to scale this castle wall. Antimagic fields prevent flight or dimension door, etc., so you really have to climb it. The good news is that this is the same castle wall that you climbed back when you were level 1, remember?
PC: Yeah, I remember. The DC was 15, right?
GM: Yep. DC 15. Then.
PC: Not even a problem. I can do that in my sleep. I rolled a 27 and scurry to the top of this wall like a human spider.
GM: Not so fast. You got halfway and then fell, taking 2d6 damage.
PC: Why did I fall? A trap?
GM: No. Now that you're level 15, the DC is 35.
PC: What? Why did the DC go up?
GM: Because you leveled up.
PC: Did they come out here and sand down the walls to be smooth as glass?
GM: No, it's the same wall.
PC: Unchanged?
GM: Completely unchanged. You can even see the hand and foot holds you used the last time you climbed it.
PC: But the DC went up from 15 to 35?
GM: Yep.
PC: Why?
GM: Because you're 15th level and this wall SHOULD challenge you.
PC: So you're saying that some magical force of the universe makes this same exact wall more than twice as hard as it used to be, only for the reason that I got better at climbing walls so walls got harder to climb???
GM: That's exactly right. Oh, by the way, a level 1 farmer just walked up the wall, started climbing in the same spot you just tried, and made it with a roll of 15. He's at the top now. Do you want him to throw you a rope?
PC: So HE can climb the wall that I could not?
GM: Yep. He's a level 1 commoner so the wall is challenging for him at DC 15. He made that roll, so he's at the top. But to challenge you, the wall needs a DC 35, so that's what it has, but only when YOU climb it.
Absurd, right?
Setting the DC of a standard thing to match PC levels means NOTHING IS STANDARD and different levels of PCs MUST have different DCs for doing that thing.
If you're going to GM it that way, just get rid of skills entirely. Simplify the system by giving every "challenge" in the game a label like "Easy", "Average", "Hard", or "Very Hard" and then assume the PC can succeed on a d20 roll with no modifiers if his natural roll is a 5 (easy), 10 (average), 15 (hard), or 20 (very hard). After all, you're basically doing this anyway, so why not simplify and it cut out the middleman (and all the bookkeeping necessary to track skill ranks and bonuses)?
@Dave Justus
To me it makes sense that rather than taking twenty times as long to lift something, or trying 20 times, you are instead taking time to prepare. Stretching a bit, taking some deep breaths, getting mentally prepared etc.
I'm certainly no expect, but in seeing things like weight lifting competitions it certainly seems like to get their best effort they do take some time to prepare.
That's kind of how I've always envisioned it to.
@Errant Mercenary
This is ridiculous. Who has a fresco and an anvil in the same room? Nonsense. Handwave it by all means, but obviously this module is beyond believable.
YES!!! I had that same thought. The design and aesthetics of this room are absolutely bonkers! It's almost like the very design of the room is supposed to make the PCs question their own sanity.
@DM_Blake, can I just say that I your GM:/PC: imagined scenarios? They crack me up. I love how you take the mechanics of the game and put them into a real world table scenario, and let us look at how ridiculous they are sometimes. Good moments.
I generally agree, DM_Blake, and perhaps some are capable of a little of that dangerous consistency we all fear :P
The problem to me is this example to me is a very uninteresting challenge that provides 0 flexibility in solving it (painting one).
Missed perception? Carry on. You missed the trap door to continue the whole adventure, sort of challenge. Better start a shop or something instead. The turning the anvil itself is more interesting, in that you could give them Knowledge: Engeneering as an alternative or something they come up to, to actual surmount a challenge they know about using their imaginations and their tools.
Scaling Walls of Doom
Scaling DCs is something I've come across as we all do - for example acrobatic checks to board a ship. The rules state that you become flat footed no matter what when boarding a ship this way - but when my group's swashbuckler is landing with 40s well, I obviate the rule. Which is kinda the opposite to the unscalable walls.
I wish your example included a sentient wall that would actively build itself higher and more slippery as a genuine encounter!
MendedWall12: That could be the start of a dreamscape adventure, as they walk through the place and see gradually weirder things, at the beginning subtle an ending in such deranged art-deco choices as anvils and frescos, the signs of a truly demented mind behind it all!