Recently I built an Unchained Rogue for a new campaign I will be playing in.
Now, the unchained rogue is definitely an improvement on the old rogue. But it still seems to be lacking relative to a lot of other classes. It might not be on the lowest tier with core monk or core rogue, but it still only graduated up to the next tier.
So I was thinking what would help the class out. Eventually it came to me that adding 4th level spell casting progression could really help the rogue out, but I'm unsure mechanically what to do with it.
I'm thinking 4th level spell progression like a bloodrager or ranger, but I'm unsure if I want to have the rogue be spontaneous or prepared. I'm know I want it to have general access to the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
Thoughts and opinions? How would you implement this? What (if anything) would you remove from the class to accommodate this increase in power.
They strike me as spontaneous.
Sorcerer/Wizard list works just fine.
Not sure what to remove... Sneak attack?
I think sneak attack is the one iconic part of the class that has to stay. I think anything else can be removed, but to me it's just not a rogue if it doesn't have sneak attack.
I'm primarily considering the spell casting for use as utility and buffing (think greater magic weapon, greater invisibility) and the ability to use wands without needing UMD (obscuring mist).
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Existing
Minor Magic - level 0 / usually I take acid splash.
Major Magic - level 1 / usually I take true strike.
I'd like to see a level 2 and level 3 version of these and bonus spells based on intelligence. So I can take invisibility or haste.
I already have the feat that gives the ability to change the minor/major.
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On the other side of this topic, although I don't mind the unchained power boost. Rogues always worked for me.
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Get rid of every other talent and give them the magus spellcasting.
Or give them the magus spellcasting, then have them gain talents at the same rate as a magus gains arcana.
Allow them to take a magus arcana as a talent, and allow them to gain an arcane pool through a talent.
Some good talents should probably shore it up.
The skill unlocks are zzzz.
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The only thing you need to do is give them Bardic Knowledge and call it Educated Guess or something like that. Then perhaps replace Skill Unlocks with an ability to reroll saving throws called Rogue's Luck or something, 1/day at 5, 2/day at 10, and so on.
The class:
1. Has good accuracy.
2. Has good damage.
3. Has good combat utility.
4. Has great out of combat skills.
5. Has okay proficiencies.
I found UnRogues to be very functional. Spellcasting is making a whole different class.
If it weren't so easy for just anybody to get UMD, rogues would have a big bonus there. IMHO, the key to making rogues shine is to deny other classes the things they are stealing from rogues:
- deny other classes trapfinding, especially through a cheesy campaign trait that no one should have outside that campaign.
- deny others UMD as a class skill, AND give rogues a special bonus with UMD.
To me, that would make the difference. UMD can be very very powerful, especially if most magic items in the game come ONLY through DM-sanctioned treasure drops. Only the rogue would have a decent ability at using just any item, regardless of who it's intended for. Other folks would be mostly restricted to using items intended for their class.
Unchained helps rogues, but the rest relies on how easy it is for others to poach their keynote abilities.
Take a look at Monte Cook's Book of Roguish Luck.
It's got a couple of rogueish classes with various amounts of spell-casting.
Rogue as a class is high on coolness, low on performance. It is a melee class with lower hit points, lower attack, lower AC and worse tactical positioning than even the most basic warrior\fighter. And, the will save is a bad any in the game. They are called walking corpses for a reason.
Unchained Rogue is good (if you can flank and get in precision damage) against one target for (1) round. How underwhelming is that?
I still see chains.
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Existing
Minor Magic - level 0 / usually I take acid splash.
Major Magic - level 1 / usually I take true strike.I'd like to see a level 2 and level 3 version of these and bonus spells based on intelligence. So I can take invisibility or haste.
I already have the feat that gives the ability to change the minor/major.
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On the other side of this topic, although I don't mind the unchained power boost. Rogues always worked for me.
I recommend you take a dip in Wizard (Diviner/Foresight) instead: you gain 3 cantrips a day, which you can change every day, and 5 1st level spells in your spellbook (based on 14 Int).
Diviner (Foresight) gives you this:
Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
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Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
....and if you take the Arcane School Divination Familiar, you get this:
School Cantrip (Sp): A school familiar can cast at will one cantrip selected from its associated arcane school, using its master's caster level.
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Ever Ready (Su): At the start of combat, the familiar and its master each roll initiative separately, and the master can choose to trade his initiative result with his familiar's. The familiar gains the benefits of the diviner's forewarned school power and can always act on the surprise round.
The above powers fit extremely well with the rogue's Uncanny Dodge at 4th level, and you can always cast True Strike in the surprise round in order to ensure that your first sneak gets in before anyone else goes (assuming you're going first in the initiative, which is extremely likely if you take a familiar that grants +4 initiative bonus... there's 3 of those I think... effectively your initiative is DEX bonus + 5... Dex bonus + 9 if you take Improved Initiative...)
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But isn't this about modifying the existing rogue so it can compete?
The existing UnRogue can compete extremely well.
This thread, in my opinion, is about making another class that the people here want to play but doesn't exist.
While I don't frown upon that - more power to you if you come up with a good way to create a full class Arcane Trickster that works well -, the people here have no intentions about hearing how to make their UnRogues good.
They just want something else.
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My solution to the rogue is to just give them 6 level casting, with access to wiz/sorc schools of divination, illusion, abjuration and either enchanment or necromancy (going with the smooth talker or assassin theme.)
My reasoning is that sneak attack and rogue talents aren't any better than the class features other 6 level casters get (I'm looking at vivisectionist as a particularly close example) so it is balanced. Secondly, with magic being the technology of a fantasy world it is crazy that your thief doesn't know how to use it.
I think the slayer has already taken care of the 'combat thug' type of rogue pretty well, but this would provide an actually useful skill monkey that would still be ok in combat and have the versatility that spell casting gives.
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The existing UnRogue can compete extremely well.
I completely agree with you. I was just advocating a one level dip instead of using two rogue talents in order to gain 0 and 1st level spells. But using two talents is not bad either, as Sneak progresses faster that way. I find the current unRogue completely fine and great on its own, make no mistake.
Please also note that the only reason I did this in my campaign is, ironically, not to gain 0 or 1st level spells: it was to gain an "always act in surprise round" ability that will dovetail very well with my upcoming Underhanded and Surprise Attack rogue talents, as well as with my Lookout teamwork feat (which I will also give to my cohort at level 7, a fighter eldritch guardian goblin, who will also share the feat with its familiar...)
(I'm looking at vivisectionist as a particularly close example
1. Unchained Rogue has several advantages over it, but that being said...
2. Wait for Ultimate Magic errata. They've said before they wanted to nerf the Vivi hard. It's not a good bar to judge power level.
I completely agree with you.
And I agree with you, I was commenting on the post above you XD
Spit balling a few ideas here.
Always Flanking: Starting at 4th level are you considered to be flanking an opponent you attack in melee. The Rogue is not considered to be flanking for an ally, nor does the Rogue gain an attack bonus unless they are in normal flanking position.
Shared Pain: Starting at 6th level the Rogue may accept 50% of the benefit applied by Rogue conditions, for himself and allies, to have that apply to all visible enemies within 50 feet.
Wild Swing: Staring at 8th level when making a melee attack, the Rogue may roll once for attack and damage, and apply that to all enemies within reach. Attacks that hit do half damage.
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Spit balling a few ideas here.
Always Flanking: Starting at 4th level are you considered to be flanking an opponent you attack in melee. The Rogue is not considered to be flanking for an ally, nor does the Rogue gain an attack bonus unless they are in normal flanking position.Shared Pain: Starting at 6th level the Rogue may accept 50% of the benefit applied by Rogue conditions, for himself and allies, to have that apply to all visible enemies within 50 feet.
Wild Swing: Staring at 8th level when making a melee attack, the Rogue may roll once for attack and damage, and apply that to all enemies within reach. Attacks that hit do half damage.
Way back before Unchained I came up with a bunch of ideas here, but my favorite was this rogue talent (and it fits with the new Occult Adventures book too!) ;)
Selective Proprioception (Ex): By tricking her own sense of hand-eye coordination, a rogue with this ability can attack directly while invisible and not become visible.
(I'm looking at vivisectionist as a particularly close example1. Unchained Rogue has several advantages over it, but that being said...
2. Wait for Ultimate Magic errata. They've said before they wanted to nerf the Vivi hard. It's not a good bar to judge power level.
I'll admit I haven't fully read through unchained rogue. My impression was that it was mostly a bump to a rogues combat ability, and I think Slayer already covers that niche perfectly. If you want a fairly sneaky backstabby badass, Slayer is your guy.
Vivisectionist is a direct parallel, having sneak attack and discoveries (better than rogue talents) as well as six levels of spells. I don't think though that Vivisectionist is straight up better then a regular alchemist (or a Magus or Inquisitor etc etc.) so the balance point stands.
I am looking for a rogue that is a master of sneakiness, misdirection and infiltration and I don't think you can really do that in the system without magic. I also don't think it unreasonable in a world dominated by magic for the super thieves and spies to study magic.
There's nothing wrong with the vivisectionist, the problem is with the Rogue.
It never, ever, ever should have been a 3/4ths BAB class AND should never have had a single good save.
Ever.
Also Rogue Talents need to be better.
This lots of times.
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I am looking for a rogue that is a master of sneakiness, misdirection and infiltration and I don't think you can really do that in the system without magic. I also don't think it unreasonable in a world dominated by magic for the super thieves and spies to study magic.
You'd think that, but I think it's mistaken. For example, a Magus who relies on invisibility to pull heists will get foiled by see invisibility, scent, blindsense, anti-magic fields, etc.
It's very hard for unprepared creatures, however, to counter actual stealth checks.
It's impossible to sneak on a Dragon with invisibility. But Stealth checks? No issue at all!
The real problem with the DESIGN of the Rogue is that skills only do as much as a player can imagine and a DM chooses to allow, and skills are the Rogue's largest resource. If you are allowed to be creative with them, then you can be the best super thief/spy there is.
On the other hand, if your GM says your 50 on a Sleight of Hand check does not allow you to take away that amulet from the Dragon without being noticed, there's little you can do.
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There's nothing wrong with the vivisectionist, the problem is with the Rogue.
It never, ever, ever should have been a 3/4ths BAB class AND should never have had a single good save.
Ever.
Also Rogue Talents need to be better.
1. Thing is, I didn't say the Vivisectionist was bad design. PAIZO said he Vivisectionist was bad design. I expect it to be nerfed on the next Ultimate Magic reprint and, perhaps, so should you.
I happen to consider it's not the best design too. Trading Bombs for Sneak Attack is fair, but they get a bunch of extra features just because, though they are mostly for flavor.
2. 3/4 BAB means nothing. Inquisitors are a 3/4 BAB class, but have enough features to compensate for it. Debilitating Injury more than compensates for 3/4 BAB if you can apply it (which, with clever building, should be simple enough). It amounts to a SAVELESS -8 to AC to your enemy, making your effective class granted attack +23. A Barbarian has an effective class granted attack of +24, +28 if you go with Accurate Stance. That being said, the Rogue has a total +35 damage per hit with sneak attack, while the Barb only has +6 or so.
My point: BAB only matters when compared as a package.
3. I do agree it should have had another good save, but the issue is that thieves are known to be cowardly (bad Will save) and not necessarily tough (bad Fort save), which brings me to my next point...
4. They should have better talents. This is the ONLY thing I will concede in an argument about the Unchained Rogue. Extra Rogue Talent should be erased from existence, and, in its place, GOOD Rogue Talents should be placed. The whole Regular/Advanced thing should be gone too -- Rogue Talents should have a level requirement and that's it. For example, Slippery Mind should be selectable at level 6; Opportunist at level 8.
Yes, I think rogue talents are perhaps the most disappointing thing.
If rogue talents had the same sort of power as rage powers then I think the rogue would be able to hold it own.
Hell, if you could simply select combat trick multiples times it would go a long way to helping the rogue. I find that there are many feats and feat chains I would like to have, but the rogue is so limited on feats that it's hard to pull them off.
To me it's a bad sign when talents are less valuable then feats.
Though I do look forward to Double Debilitation when I can take it.
I had the same thoughts as many in this thread. Here's a link to the product I came up with:
Rogue Talents have always been terrible. I've ranted about it plenty, so I'll spare it here, but I don't think Unchained really did much to help them.
Which sucks because you get them every other level, so every other level you've got to roll your eyes and poke around at the pile of mediocrity.
Someone suggested 6th level spellcasting, and I scoffed.
Then I thought about it and realized that I think you can add 4th level spellcasting to the class, as is, just taped on to the side of the damn thing, and nobody would even notice or care about the difference.
There's a 5e arcane trickster archetype with 1/2 casting from the Wizard list. Supposedly the spell list doesn't even make it more powerful than the other archetypes.
On a less-related note, 5e Rogues get a sort of druidic-lite that they can speak in to confuse people.
5e arcane tricksters only get access to Illusion and Enchantment spells, while being able to pick up a single spell other than those every few levels.
Wouldn't be so bad if Blur and Mirror Image didn't both stack and were really amazing defenses.
I am looking for a rogue that is a master of sneakiness, misdirection and infiltration and I don't think you can really do that in the system without magic. I also don't think it unreasonable in a world dominated by magic for the super thieves and spies to study magic.You'd think that, but I think it's mistaken. For example, a Magus who relies on invisibility to pull heists will get foiled by see invisibility, scent, blindsense, anti-magic fields, etc.
It's very hard for unprepared creatures, however, to counter actual stealth checks.
I don't say that a Rogue doesn't need skills (still 8 skill points per level and while I didn't say, I'm making it INT based casting so that will add even more.) Someone with invisibility and a good stealth skill is going to be more versatile and useful than someone with just one or the other.
I think a good thief in our modern world would be able to pick a lock with a set of picks. I also think they would be able to hack into a security system and set up a video loop. Employing the technologies of a world is necessary to do the job.
But it's so easy to get invisibility in this game, ESPECIALLY as a Rogue.
A Rogue, in particular, lives up to the concept of a guy who doesn't know magic or combat training, but can imitate both - through clever sneak attacks and use of Use Magic Device.
GIving them casting just invalidates the CORE concept of a somewhat average joe with wits, cunning and tricks down his sleeve.
So a while back I re-wrote the rogue.
Here's my new version of "Sneak Attack" and Talents, which includes the spellcasting ability.
Guile: While a rogue typically doesn't focus on toe-to-toe combat, she can be quite wily and resourceful, and can recognize and exploit weaknesses to gain advantage in combat. The rogue gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage on attacks made against targets that would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when flanking a target. She also gains a +1 bonus on the following combat maneuvers at all times: dirty trick, disarm, steal, and trip. Both bonuses stack if she uses a combat maneuver in the listed conditions. Finally, master skills gain a bonus equal to the guile bonus on all checks. The guile bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, and every 4 levels (up to +5 at 17th level).
Instead of straight up damage, it has a bonus to attack in the favored condition, a further bonus to attack on combat maneuvers that are classic for the rogue, and a bonus to mastered skills (in the case of the unchained rogue, those chosen by Rogue's Edge).
And while damage is much lower, it's not precision damage, so it's multiplied on a critical. Also Sneak Attack damage is brought back as a talent, so those dedicated to doing major sneak attack damage can choose the talent for it (see below).
Here's my list of redone talents. They were made to basically attempt to encapsulate an entire concept in each talent chosen (so a poisoner picks poisoner and gets all the things needed to be good at poisoning, not needing a line of talents).
The only one that is "kind of" split up, is the spellcasting. It has cantrips in one, regular spells in two others, and a familiar in a fourth.
Talents can improve others though, which the spellcasting ones do (such as having spellcasting makes your Slippery Mind even more powerful, etc).
Plus, it's straight up spellcasting (complete with spell slots and unlimited cantrips, etc).
Lastly, these were things that weren't skill specific, since those would be moved to a skill mastery section.
Note: I also had a "rogue focus" (called Cunning Craft) that granted a set of abilities that were specific to a particular "thing" (like Assassin, or Thief, or Investigator, etc). These often gave an additional talent, so to plug these talents into existing pathfinder, I'd just say grant 2 talents at first level, and then one every odd level after that.
Rogue Talents: As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. At 1st level, and at every uneven level thereafter, a rogue gains one rogue talent. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once. Most talents gain additional improvements at later levels, or when other talents are selected.
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Arcane Dabbler: A rogue with this talent has dabbled in the arcane arts, gaining some minor magical talent. The rogue gains detect magic, mage hand, and read magic, and may choose three more cantrips from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. The rogue memorizes and casts spells as a wizard (such as needing 1 hour to prepare spells from a spellbook), and can memorize two cantrips at a time, casting them an unlimited number of times per day. The rogue has a caster level equal to her rogue level, however her spell list only includes these spells, not the full sorcerer/wizard spell list. A rogue's spell DC is 10 + the spell level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have a high enough Intelligence score to cast the spell, equal to 10 + the spell level.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue gains 3 more cantrips of her choice and adds them to her spell list and spells known. She may also memorize two additional cantrips at a time, for a total of four.
Note: The Arcane Dabbler talent can alter many other rogue talents..
Arcane Dilettante: A rogue with this talent develops their ability with the arcane. The rogue gains two 1st level spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, adding them to her spell list and spells known. She also gains one 1st level spell slot. The rogue prepares and casts spells and recovers spell slots as a wizard would, and receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
The rogue must have the Arcane Dabbler rogue talent to select this talent.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue gains two 2nd level spells, as well as an additional two 1st level spells, adding them to her spell list and spells known. She gains one 2nd level spell slot, and increases her 1st level spell slots to two.
Master Talents: The rogue gains two 3rd level spells, as well as an additional two 2nd level and two 1st level spells, adding them to her spell list and spells known. She also now has three 1st level spell slots, two 2nd level spell slots, and one 3rd level spell slot, before bonus spells from a high Intelligence score..
Assault Leader (Ex): Once per round, if a rogue with this talent misses a target that she is flanking, she can grant a single ally who is flanking the same target an attack as an immediate action. This attack is made with a bonus equal to the rogue's guile bonus..
Bleeding Attack (Ex): Whenever a rogue makes an attack against a living target that would cause bonus damage from guile, the creature gains bleeding equal to twice the guile bonus. Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess..
Child of Fate (Su): A rogue with this talent seems to have chance land in their favor. After a roll has been made, but before the result of the roll is determined, the rogue can force a second roll and pick the best one. The roll affected does not need to be one made by the rogue, however the impact of the result must affect her directly in some way. The rogue can bend fate in this manner once per day per guile bonus.
Note: The Child of Fate talent can alter many other rogue talents..
Combat Tactics (Ex): The rogue no longer provokes an attack of opportunity when making a dirty trick, disarm, steal or trip combat maneuver.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue gains an additional +2 bonus to combat maneuver checks and CMD for these maneuvers. This bonus does not stack with the Improved feats for these combat maneuvers, and the rogue is treated has having those feats for purposes of qualifying for feats and abilities. If the rogue already has one of the Improved feats, they may immediately retrain that feat.
Child of Fate: The rogue may roll twice and choose the higher roll when making a combat maneuver check for these maneuvers. She may perform a reroll once per day per guile bonus (over and above the rerolls granted by Child of Fate)..
Daring (Ex): The rogue can perform acts of great derring-do. She gains a daring pool, choosing either grit or panache. If choosing grit, the rogue uses her Wisdom bonus for her daring pool and may select a deed from the gunslinger class. If choosing panache, the rogue uses her Charisma bonus for her daring pool and may select a deed from the swashbuckler class. She uses her rogue level as her class level to determine which deed she can select.
Note: A rogue can select this talent a second time, gaining the other style of daring pool and adding both ability scores to their daring pool and may select from both cunning craft deeds. The rogue shares this pool for all deeds gained.
Alternatively, she may select two additional deeds from an existing daring class selection..
Distracting Attack (Ex): The rogue gains her guile bonus on feint checks in combat. Also the rogue can forgo dealing guile damage on an attack, and instead cause a target to be flatfooted for 1 round. Creatures who cannot be flatfooted (such as with uncanny dodge), are immune to distracting attack..
Evasion (Ex): The rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
-Improvements-
Master Talents: The rogue gains Improved Evasion, taking only half damage on a failed save..
Familiar (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a familiar as the familiar option of the wizard's arcane bond class feature, using her rogue level as her effective wizard level.
The rogue must have the Arcane Dabbler rogue talent to select this talent.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue gains the Improved Familiar feat, and may immediately select a new familiar at that time. The rogue uses her rogue level as caster level for purposes of this feat..
Finesse Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue may apply their Dexterity bonus to damage with weapons that use Dexterity bonus to attack (such as weapon finesse weapons, and ranged attacks). This is precision damage, and as such it is not multiplied on a critical hit..
Iron Guts (Ex): A rogue with this talent has a cast-iron stomach and has trained to withstand poisons, especially ingested ones. She gains a +1 bonus on all saves against ingested poisons, and is immune to the sickened condition.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: Through a strict regimen of self-poisoning, the rogue is able to build up an immunity to specific poisons. When poisoned, if they make their first save against a specific poison, they gain temporary immunity to that poison for 24 hours. In addition, when the rogue becomes nauseated, they are instead treated as sickened.
Master Talents: The rogue is now immune to all poisons as well as the nauseated and sickened conditions..
Keen Eye (Ex): The rogue can deal sneak attack damage when making ranged attacks up to her second range increment or 50 feet, whichever is higher. The rogue also ignores 1 point of AC granted by cover per guile bonus.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue improves her sneak attack range to 5 range increments, and reduces miss chance from concealment by 5% per guile bonus.
Child of Fate: If the rogue misses because of concealment, she may reroll her miss chance percentile roll one time to see if she actually hit..
Ki Knowledge: The rogue gains three additional ki abilities known.
The rogue must have the Ki Pool rogue talent, or a ki pool from another source, to select this talent..
Ki Pool (Su): The rogue gains access to a supernatural energy she can use to perform mystical abilities. The rogue may use her cunning craft pool as her ki pool. If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she may use points from either to use ki abilities. The rogue selects two ki abilities upon selecting this talent, and may learn additional ki abilities from masters or manuals..
Poisoner (Ex): The rogue cannot accidentally poison herself when applying a poison to a weapon. If a rogue is aware of a poison, she may identify what kind of poison it is as a standard action by making the slightest smell or taste (that does not risk poisoning herself).
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue can apply poisons to a weapon as a swift action. Additionally, the rogue can apply a poison in such a way as to allow two uses of the poison. This reduces the effects of the poison slightly, reducing the DC to resist by 2. Applying the poison in this way requires a standard action.
Master Talents: The rogue can apply two doses of poison to a weapon at once. These can be separate poisons, in which case they both affect the target individually, or two doses of the same toxin, in which case the poisons' frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This is an exception to the rule that injury poisons can only be delivered one dose at a time..
Resiliency (Ex): The rogue gains the ability to recover a number of hitpoints per day equal to 4 + her rogue level per day. These hitpoints can be applied as a swift action, or as an immediate action in response to an attack that caused damage. Hitpoints can be applied in any amount per use. As with other healing, this also heals an equal amount of non-lethal damage, and stops bleeding.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue may now recover a number of hitpoints equal to four times her rogue level per day. She may only recover half the total hitpoints per day in a single swift action.
Master Talents: The rogue gains damage reduction 1/- per guile bonus..
Slow Reactions (Ex): Opponents who've taken guile damage cannot make attacks of opportunity, and have a penalty to their CMD equal to the rogue's guile bonus. This effect lasts for 1 round..
Sneak Attack (Ex): The rogue deals an additional +1d6 damage per bonus in guile. This damage applies whenever she would apply bonus damage from guile. This is precision damage, and as such it is not multiplied on a critical hit. A rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue does not apply sneak attack damage while striking a creature with concealment greater than 20%, or when making ranged attacks further than thier first range increment or 30 feet, whichever is higher. Certain creatures have no discernable anatomy, and are immune to sneak attack (such as creatures with the Elemental or Ooze creature types).
-Improvements-
Surprise Attack: During a surprise round, if a target was unaware of the weapon used to make the attack, the sneak attack damage is treated as maximum damage..
Surprise Attack (Ex): The rogue gains a bonus to Initiative checks equal to her guile bonus. Also, during a surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue is treated as having an initiative roll of 20 for purposes of the surprise round, but may only make an attack with whatever weapon she has on hand, or that can be drawn as a free action. The rogue uses her regular initiative roll if she wishes to perform an alternative action, and after the surprise round ends.
Fate's Smile: The rogue adds her Charisma bonus on initiative checks, in addition to her Dexterity modifier. Also, she rolls twice when making an initiative check, selecting the roll she wants..
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character..
Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains improved training with a specific type of weapon. She may select Weapon Focus for a single weapon. The rogue also gains proficiency with that weapon if she does not already have it. If it is a firearm, she gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat. If it is unarmed strikes, she gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
-Improvements-
Advanced Talents: The rogue gains Weapon Specialization with their chosen weapon.
Fate's Smile: The rogue gains the Perfect Strike feat even if she does not qualify for it. She may only use the feat with the weapon selected for weapon training. If she gains the Perfect Strike feat from another source, she may use any listed weapons in the feat as well and gains a use per day equal to her rogue levels (instead of one use every four levels of rogue).
The Ki-related abilities reference a change I made to the monk, so it might not be totally usable with standard rules as is. Basically, monk abilities were detached from the class, and something learnable, similar to spells, and the monk just spent ki to perform them (or could perform them if they had "at least X ki remaining", etc). Big list of like 50 ki abilities, plus spell emulation, split into physical and mystical abilities.
Advanced Talents: At 6th level, rogue talents gain advanced improvements and the rogue may select from the following talents in place of their rogue talents. Talents that have improvements are gained automatically, and do not need to be selected again.
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Befuddling Strike (Ex): When a rogue deals guile damage to a target, they also take a penalty to attack rolls and concentration checks equal to the guile bonus for 1 round.
-Improvements-
Master Talents: The duration is increased to a number of rounds equal to the guile bonus..
Deadly Maneuvers (Ex): The rogue can apply guile bonus damage whenever she makes a successful guile combat maneuver check. This includes any increases to damage from other rogue talents, such as sneak attack.
-Improvements-
Master Talents: If a weapon was used as part of the combat maneuver check, she may add a full damage roll with that weapon along with the guile damage..
Defensive Roll (Ex): The rogue can quickly recognize a devastating blow, and give up favorable positioning to avoid it. If the rogue is successfully hit, after damage is rolled the rogue may decide to make a defensive roll. The rogue must make a Reflex save (DC is the attack roll that hit - 10). If successful the rogue takes no damage, diving out of the way. She must choose a square 5' away and lands prone. This ability cannot be used if the rogue cannot move to a different square, or if she is already prone.
The rogue must have the Uncanny Dodge rogue talent to choose this talent.
-Improvements-
Fate's Smile: Once per day, instead of diving out of the way the rogue may redirect the attack towards a different creature. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attacker, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target..
Entanglement of Blades (Ex): Opponents who've taken guile damage cannot make a 5 foot step. This effect lasts for 1 round.
-Improvements-
Master Talents: The duration is increased to a number of rounds equal to the rogue's guile bonus. The victim can spend a standard action to end this effect..
Knock-Out Blow (Ex): A rogue with this talent is able to make a single, well placed blow that instantly incapacitates her victim. The victim must not be engaged in combat such that they are flatfooted, and completely unaware of the rogue (because she is hidden, or simply not treated as a threat). The rogue must observe their victim's movement for 3 rounds and then make a non-lethal attack as a standard action. If this attack hits, instead of rolling damage the target must make a Fortitude save or take non-lethal damage equal to their current hitpoints, causing them to fall unconscious. The DC for this save is 10 + 1/2 rogue's level + the rogue's Dexterity modifier.
This attack follows the same requirements as Sneak Attack damage.
-Improvements-
Master Talents: The DC for the save is increased to 10 + the rogue's base attack bonus + the rogue's Dexterity modifier.
Hunter's Prey: The rogue may make a knock-out blow on a designated target in combat, as long as she meets the normal requirements of Sneak Attack..
Slippery Mind (Ex): A rogue with this talent is hard to fool with mind-affecting effects. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by a mind-affecting spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
-Improvements-
Master Talents: At the start of her turn, if the rogue is still subject to any mind-affecting spells or effects, she can make a Will saving throw with a standard DC for the effect's level, and if she succeeds at the check, she is no longer subject to the mind-affecting effect. She can make this saving throw even against mind-affecting effects that normally don't allow a saving throw. In those cases, generate the saving throw as if the spell or effect did allow a saving throw (DC 10 + spell level or half HD + appropriate stat modifier).
Arcane Dilettante: If the rogue succeeds at a saving throw against a magical effect that provides ongoing control (such as charm person, dominate person, or a vampire's dominate ability), she can allow the spell to take partial effect. To the caster, it appears that the rogue failed her saving throw, but the rogue is not under the caster's control. If the spell provides a telepathic link, it functions normally, but the rogue is under no obligation to follow the caster's commands. The rogue can dismiss a fooled spell as a standard action. The rogue can fool a spell in this manner the first time she saves against the spell, regardless if it was immediately upon being affected, or on a subsequent saving throw for an ongoing effect..
Unwitting Ally (Ex): A rogue with this talent can spend a swift action to attempt to make an opponent act like an ally for purposes of providing a flank until the beginning of the rogue's next turn. The opponent must be able to hear and see the rogue, and the rogue must succeed at a Bluff check opposed by the opponent's Sense Motive. If the check succeeds, the opponent acts as an ally for the purpose of providing a flank. Whether or not the check succeeds, the rogue cannot use this trick again on the same opponent for the next 24 hours. If the rogue fails the check by 5 or more, she cannot use the unwitting ally ability on any opponent within line of sight of the failed attempt for 24 hours.
Master Talents: At 11th level, rogue talents gain master improvements, and the rogue may select from the following talent in place of their rogue talents.
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Arcane Apprentice: A rogue with this talent gains greater arcane ability. She gains access to 4th level spells and slots and gains two spells known at each spell level (1st through 4th), increasing the spells known from Arcane Dilettante. She gains access to the wizard/sorcerer spell list as her spell list (for use with wands and scrolls), however she cannot learn more spells known by scribing them into her spellbook. She now has the following spell slots: two 4th level slots, two 3rd level slots, three 2nd level slots, and four 1st level slots.
The rogue must have the Arcane Dilettante rogue talent to select this talent..
Confounding Blades (Ex): Opponents who've taken guile damage cannot make swift or immediate actions (actions that normally only require a swift action can still be performed, but must use the remaining move or standard action). This effect lasts for 1 round..
Crippling Strike (Ex): When a rogue deals guile damage to a target, they also take 2 Strength damage.
-Improvements-
Arcane Dabbler: The rogue can choose to deal Strength drain instead of damage..
Dispelling Attack (Su): When the rogue deals guile damage to a target, they are treated as if affected by a targeted dispel magic effect, targeting the lowest level active spell on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level.
The rogue must have the Arcane Dilettante rogue talent to select this talent..
Fate's Smile (Su): Whenever a rogue uses their child of fate talent, they can apply their Charisma bonus as a bonus or a penalty to the second roll.
Note: The Fate's Smile talent can alter many other rogue talents..
Hunter's Prey (Ex): A rogue with this talent is able to study a target in combat to find a weakness in their defenses. A rogue can designate a single target who she observes in combat as her prey. She must study the target for two rounds, spending a swift action each round doing so. On the third round and onward, she can apply the damage bonus from guile on all attacks, regardless if she meets the normal requirements. The rogue must be able to see the target either attacking or being attacked for two rounds to be able to designate them, though these rounds do not need to be consecutive. She may only observe and designate a single target at a time; observing a new target loses the current prey..
Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
Hope this is legible, and gives some new playability for your rogue. The spellcasting being left as a talent instead of automatic makes it so you can have several different rogues. The same effect coming from the sneak attack and uncanny dodge being moved to talents as well. Now you can play a sneaky/troubleshooter rogue that doesn't necessarily focus totally on damaging backstabs, but is still relevant.
I've only started doing the skill stuff, but an example of what I had planned is something like the following:
Skill Disciplines: Rogues can master the use of skills, far exceeding the typical applications. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue can choose one skill discipline. She gains an additional skill discipline for every 4 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. Skill disciplines grant a number of skills as master skills, and grant automatic benefits and selectable abilities for having high ranks in those skills.
The rogue may only benefit from two abilities at a time when she gains her first discipline, and an additional ability each time she selects another skill discipline. She may forgo gaining an additional skill discipline to instead use three additional abilities. She may swap out the abilities with 1 hour of preparation.
CLANDESTINE
Master Skills: Bluff, Disguise, Stealth
The rogue ignores penalties for moving full speed while hiding and from moving between cover, and may make a double move after using bluff to create a distraction. She also reduces the disguise penalty modifiers by half.Abilities
Sniper (Ex) (2 ranks in Stealth): The rogue is highly skilled at hiding after taking a shot, and no longer has a penalty to stealth rolls when sniping..
Hide Scent (Ex) (2 ranks in Stealth): The rogue can prepare their person to prevent scents, allowing stealth checks even against creatures with the scent ability..
Quick Change (Ex) (2 ranks in Disguise): The rogue can use minor materials at hand to create an impromptu disguise. This allows only changing the following features: gender, age, and minor details. This change is made as a standard action, and will not stand up to intense scrutiny (direct perception checks when within 30 feet)..
Glamered Disguise (Sp) (4 ranks in Disguise, Arcane Dabbler rogue talent): The rogue uses her magical talent as her disguise kit, creating changes in the form of glamers. This has the effect of a disguise self spell. The rogue spends a standard action to create the change, and then must spend a swift action each round to maintain the effect. This effect can be dispelled, however the rogue can simply recreate it again on her turn. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion (DC 11 + Int modifier)..
Trackless (Ex) (4 ranks in Stealth): The rogue alters their pattern of movement and stepping and takes care with their environment, such as to no longer leave a visible trail..
Anonymous (Su) (6 ranks in Bluff): The rogue can shift her personal aura, allowing her to be treated as neutral for purposes of alignment detection spells..
Camouflage (Ex) (6 ranks in Stealth and Knowledge nature): The rogue prepares loose clothing to match her environment, allowing her to make stealth checks without needing cover or concealment while in a particular terrain. When this ability is selected, choose a specific terrain (as the Ranger's favored terrain list)..
Soft Step (Ex) (6 ranks in Stealth and Bluff): The rogue times and changes their movements to match the natural activity in the environment, allowing stealth checks even against creatures with tremorsense..
Glibness (Su) (8 ranks in Bluff): The rogue is able to foil truth detecting magic. A creature using this sort of magic against the rogue must succeed on a caster level check against a DC of 15 + the master spy's class level to succeed (as if she were under the effect of a glibness spell); failure means the magic doesn't detect the spy's lies or force her to speak only the truth..
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex or Su) (8 ranks in Stealth and Bluff): The rogue's movements are designed to draw the eye away from their intended destination, allowing her to make stealth checks even while observed. This requires being in some form of cover or concealment, unless the rogue is using the Camouflage ability. If the rogue has the Arcane Dabbler rogue talent, she may instead take on a shadowy aspect, allowing her to hide as long as there is shadows within 10 feet..
Vanish (Sp) (8 ranks in Stealth, Arcane Dabbler rogue talent): The rogue can initiate magical invisibility upon her person, as the invisibility spell. She must spend a standard action to initiate and a swift action per round to maintain the effect. This effect can be dispelled, however the rogue can simply re-initiate it again on her turn..
Blind Spot Vanish (Ex) (10 ranks in Bluff): The rogue may use a moment of blind spot during combat to escape an attacker. When fighting defensively, if a rogue is attacked and the attack is a miss, the rogue may make a bluff check to create a distraction as a free action. If the attacker fails his sense motive check, he "saw" the rogue move away and must spend time re-locating her, effectively treating the rogue as invisible until the end of his turn..
Transformative Disguise (Sp) (10 ranks in Disguise, Arcane Dabbler rogue talent): The rogue uses her magical talent to drastically alter herself, creating polymorphic changes. This has the effect of an alter self spell. The rogue spends a standard action to create the change, and then must spend a swift action each round to maintain the effect. This effect can be dispelled, however the rogue can simply recreate it again on her turn..
Fool Senses (Su) (12 ranks in Stealth): The rogue is able to alter how her presence is sensed by blindsense and blindsight abilities, fooling them into believing she is not there, or simply part of the environment around her. This allows her to make stealth checks against creatures with these senses..
Undetectable (Sp) (14 ranks in Bluff): The rogue is able to alter her aura, dimming it such that she is no longer discoverable by magical means. The rogue is treated as being under the effects of a constant non-detection spell as if cast by herself (DC 15 + caster level), with a caster level equal to her rogue level. If this effect is dispelled, it can be resumed as a free action after 1d4 rounds..
Disappear (Sp) (16 ranks in Stealth, Arcane Dabbler rogue talent): The rogue can maintain magical invisibility, as the greater invisibility spell. She must spend a swift action per round that she wishes to stay invisible, and may only move at half speed. This effect can be dispelled, however the rogue can simply resume using it again on her turn..
Gray Man (Su) (18 ranks in Stealth): The rogue has deadened all magical auras about their person. All methods of magically locating or gathering information about the rogue are foiled, as the spell mind blank. The rogue may lower or raise this effect as she wishes as a free action.
In the game I run, I use this rule change:
-Sneak attack can now also be triggered on new conditions as long you are not affected with the same condition; Entangled, Frightened, Panicked, Dazed, Dazzled (only if the creature rely on primarily visual input to direct itself and fight), Deafened (only if the creature rely on primarily sound to direct itself and fight), Exhausted, Nauseated.
This make tanglefoot bags and other mundane item extremely useful.
Minor magic "Daze" is awesome too now. Instead of wasting a lot of turn getting in position for one sneak attack the rogues in my game focus on finding way to inflict these condition on enemies then going all out.
I am currently reworking most of the talents too, I find them very useless for the most part because they are all highly situation based and all require a lot of setup to use to their maximum effect.
For what it's worth, Eldritch Scoundrel archetype now exists which grants 6th level spell casting at the cost of Sneak Attack progression and rogue talent progression.